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(New York Daily News)   New study recommends giving six-year-olds ADHD stimulant medication to improve math scores. This headline is sponsored by Ritalin and Adderall   (nydailynews.com) divider line 57
    More: Asinine, ADHD, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, Ritalin, Adderall, hyperactivity, WebMD, epidemiology  
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651 clicks; posted to Geek » on 26 Jun 2012 at 9:43 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-26 09:32:17 AM
This headline conspicuously misses the bit where these 6-year-olds have already been diagnosed with ADHD.

Other than that, yeah, I'm pretty certain doping kids- even the ones that actually have documented disorders- needs to ALWAYS be the solution that's good for YOUR kid.
 
2012-06-26 09:50:20 AM
ADHD medication is speed. That's it. The generic Adderall? Amphetamine. They want to give amphetamines to 6-year-olds.

CSB: I have ADD and was given Adderall in high school. Before Adderall, my notebooks were half notes, half scratchy doodles. After the Adderall, my notebooks were completely devoid of notes, and were filled with doodles that weren't half bad. These drugs help you focus, but that doesn't mean you're going to focus on school.
 
2012-06-26 09:56:00 AM

ZombiesAreJerks: ADHD medication is speed. That's it. The generic Adderall? Amphetamine. They want to give amphetamines to 6-year-olds.

CSB: I have ADD and was given Adderall in high school. Before Adderall, my notebooks were half notes, half scratchy doodles. After the Adderall, my notebooks were completely devoid of notes, and were filled with doodles that weren't half bad. These drugs help you focus, but that doesn't mean you're going to focus on school.


One benefit of taking it? You get to call anyone who gets jittery from a cup of coffee/ Mountain Dew a lightweight.
 
2012-06-26 09:58:54 AM

Marine1: ZombiesAreJerks: ADHD medication is speed. That's it. The generic Adderall? Amphetamine. They want to give amphetamines to 6-year-olds.

CSB: I have ADD and was given Adderall in high school. Before Adderall, my notebooks were half notes, half scratchy doodles. After the Adderall, my notebooks were completely devoid of notes, and were filled with doodles that weren't half bad. These drugs help you focus, but that doesn't mean you're going to focus on school.

One benefit of taking it? You get to call anyone who gets jittery from a cup of coffee/ Mountain Dew a lightweight.


THIS!
 
2012-06-26 10:00:50 AM
Colbert cracked this egg last night.
 
2012-06-26 10:03:48 AM

SkunkWerks: This headline conspicuously misses the bit where these 6-year-olds have already been diagnosed with ADHD.


This is Fark. ADHD isn't real. Everyone diagnosed with ADHD just eats too much sugar and doesn't exercise enough and everybody who gives their kids ADHD medicine are horrible parents.
 
2012-06-26 10:08:45 AM

Splinshints: SkunkWerks: This headline conspicuously misses the bit where these 6-year-olds have already been diagnosed with ADHD.

This is Fark. ADHD isn't real. Everyone diagnosed with ADHD just eats too much sugar and doesn't exercise enough and everybody who gives their kids ADHD medicine are horrible parents.


You forgot the part about lack of parental discipline and if parents would exercise a strong hand things would be different.
 
2012-06-26 10:09:30 AM
This is more than asinine, criminal if you ask me. Breeding a new generation of speed freaks is just reckless. Clearly mj would be better for hyperactive 6 year olds but nooo, thank you Big Pharma and empty War on Drugs.
 
2012-06-26 10:10:24 AM

TrainingWheelsNeeded: This is more than asinine, criminal if you ask me. Breeding a new generation of speed freaks is just reckless. Clearly mj would be better for hyperactive 6 year olds but nooo, thank you Big Pharma and empty War on Drugs.


If you actually need ADHD medication, you won't be a speed freak. You're just making up for something that's not there.
 
2012-06-26 10:14:04 AM

Splinshints: SkunkWerks: This headline conspicuously misses the bit where these 6-year-olds have already been diagnosed with ADHD.

This is Fark. ADHD isn't real. Everyone diagnosed with ADHD just eats too much sugar and doesn't exercise enough and everybody who gives their kids ADHD medicine are horrible parents.


Case study of One. My kid had horrible grades in elementary school, she had trouble concentrating but was smart. We eventually put her on an ADD medication in middle school, she immediately improved and wanted to be taken off the medication just 2 months late, because it made her feel strange. Her grades stayed high because she had the renewed confidence that she was smart enough to do her homework, before she didn't think it was possible. Shes doing great. Odd story.
 
2012-06-26 10:15:29 AM

rudemix: Splinshints: SkunkWerks: This headline conspicuously misses the bit where these 6-year-olds have already been diagnosed with ADHD.

This is Fark. ADHD isn't real. Everyone diagnosed with ADHD just eats too much sugar and doesn't exercise enough and everybody who gives their kids ADHD medicine are horrible parents.

You forgot the part about lack of parental discipline and if parents would exercise a strong hand things would be different.


Including making sure the kids eat real food, get exercise, and sleep a little. Oh, wait, most of the parents don't do that, either. Hmmmm, wonder why there's a problem...hmmm, lemme think.
 
2012-06-26 10:19:58 AM

ZombiesAreJerks: ADHD medication is speed. That's it. The generic Adderall? Amphetamine. They want to give amphetamines to 6-year-olds.

CSB: I have ADD and was given Adderall in high school. Before Adderall, my notebooks were half notes, half scratchy doodles. After the Adderall, my notebooks were completely devoid of notes, and were filled with doodles that weren't half bad. These drugs help you focus, but that doesn't mean you're going to focus on school.


Sometimes it's all in what you're doing or thinking about when it kicks in. If I take my adderall and immediately make myself start looking at notes or flashcards, then I have a prayer of making it through the exam. If I take it and wait until it kicks in then my bookshelf gets reorganized and my characters get leveled up...but the textbooks get left in a (alphabetized) pile. Or I get really ambitious and start making my to-do list. Unfortunately, none of the things on it get done because I'm too busy making more lists.
 
2012-06-26 10:20:36 AM
Is it really that important that the kiddos make "good grades"?
 
2012-06-26 10:25:22 AM
My wife and I both have Master's degrees in Counseling. She sees families so she comes into contact with more children than I do, but basically what you get is families who come in with one kid out of control, acting out, not paying attention, etc. and the parents want you to "fix" their kid. Now ADHD is real, it shouldn't be diagnosed until at least puberty in my opinion but if you ever meet someone with real ADHD it is really debilitating. 99.99% of people that say my kid as ADHD or ADD is horribly wrong. The kid, more than likely a high energy young boy, internalizes that message. All the sudden if he isn't doing well in school, he could buckle down and work harder but man he's got ADD. Most of the time the problem lies within the family dynamic. He is acting out for a reason that involves everyone but as soon as they can label him with a disorder the parents don't have to take any responsibility for their own actions. It's a pattern that I see over and over. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the parents in every case, but family changes will get you much better results than starting your child down a road of lifetime drug taking.

I gotta say also that there are so many side effects of psychotropic drugs especially in children. If you put your kid on a drug for ADD and then decide to stop, the withdrawal effects often mirror ADHD and ADD symptoms. People get stuck in this loop of trying to get their kid off the drugs, but every time little Timmy stops, his symptoms come back reinforcing your belief in the label.

/best option is not to give your child drugs
//also don't take drugs yourself, there are lots of non drug related therapies
 
2012-06-26 10:25:30 AM
Let me first admit I DNRTFA, but my point isn't about that. It's about the more general effects I've personally observed of drugs like this.

They make people crazy. Like, want-to-slap-then kind of crazy. Shut-the-fark-up kind of crazy. I'm sure they have a number of beneficial effects also. But these side effects are disturbing to me.

I have a friend who's on a few of them. (I don't know which ones, or how many, but it's all speed of one kind of or another.) It's made him very hard to deal with, and I can only take him in short doses now because of it. He finds it very hard now to do things such as:
- Give a short, simple answer to a short, simple question, such as, "Where are you right now?" Related: Answer exactly the question that was asked him, rather than the entire set of possible interpretations and related questions that he might imagine are involved; he feels compelled to answer as many possible imaginary questions at once, just in case -- sometimes excluding the one that was actually asked.
- Handle more than one thing at a time. It's not as bad as walk and chew gum, but it's not that far off either.
- Be spontaneous. Everything must be carefully planned now, down to the smallest detail. Just getting out the door can be a major ordeal.
- Dismissing the irrelevant. If it doesn't matter, then it does not matter. But now, everything matters, all the time, if it can be linked in any way.
- Metatalk. This is the one that drives me crazy the most: talking about talking. You might imagine it would be simple and obvious to just cut him off. But that's exactly the opposite of true. What that does is knock him off his mental rail, and start him on a fugue over what just happened and what it means. Which makes me very stabby.

The thing is, he didn't used to be like this at all. I knew him for over ten years before he was suddenly 'diagnosed' with ADHD and put on speed that now makes him unbearable. I use scorn quotes because he was much saner before he met the shrink than after. I'm sure the drugs help him in all kinds of ways, but he seems crazy to me most of the time now, and he didn't before.

Okay, sample group of one, I know. But then there's my lawyer, who's on very similar medication. And he's been getting crazier, too, in much the same way. Babbling, unilinear thinking, fuguing, and an apparent diminished awareness of himself in social context. Like my other friend, he doesn't seem to understand that people avoid him because he seems crazy. I avoid him myself now, as much as I can.

These drugs surely do help people in certain discrete ways. But I believe they also damage them, in other ways. Specifically, they seem to gradually build up secondary effects that start to look to me like an autism spectrum disorder. If I didn't know the first guy above, and was shown video of him from now and from ten years ago, and asked to guess which was 'before' or 'after' medical intervention, I'd immediately and very confidently guess wrong. Same with my lawyer: I knew him before this, also, and he was a much more functional person then. Now, he's increasingly dysfunctional. Both are extremely good at specific discrete tasks requiring concentration and memory. But both are increasingly -- and disturbingly -- poor at the task of living in society.

My own views here are obviously limited and myopic, and surely based at least partly in a great deal of my own ignorance, so I welcome any thoughts on them.
 
2012-06-26 10:31:36 AM
Well, it would improve their scores!
 
2012-06-26 10:31:50 AM

Ned Stark: Is it really that important that the kiddos make "good grades"?


It's the only thing that matters.

Most school systems get paid for performance so expect some form of doping to be common in the coming decade, just like spending months teaching nothing but the performance tests and all but giving out answers is now.

Not to mention parents and the whole 'make perfect be perfect etc' thing.
 
2012-06-26 10:35:30 AM
I'm not going to jump on the "ADD isn't real" bandwagon, but how the hell can you tell at 6? Unless the kid is majorly destructive, being a running, screaming, scatterbrained, annoying shiat is pretty standard for kids that age.
 
2012-06-26 10:38:12 AM
I read that as 'meth skills'.
 
2012-06-26 10:46:21 AM

IrateShadow: I'm not going to jump on the "ADD isn't real" bandwagon, but how the hell can you tell at 6? Unless the kid is majorly destructive, being a running, screaming, scatterbrained, annoying shiat is pretty standard for kids that age.


Yeah. I teach that age group. Some are better or worse, but the ones who can't sit still or stop talking are usually funnier and have a much better personality than the ones that can sit quietly, and I'd much rather they learn self-control through discipline though than just being drugged into submission. I used to date a girl that had to take adderall occasionally for her ADD, and man that stuff makes you a completely different person.
 
2012-06-26 10:49:02 AM
The combination is highly recommended by Dr. Toboggan.

static.tvfanatic.com
 
2012-06-26 11:01:26 AM
Heh. My son is four and I've come to notice that while he's a twitchy mass of inattention and energy, it's when he's all docile that I know there's something wrong. I've also noticed he's like a spinning coin: the faster he oscillates, the faster he's going to fall asleep. Personally I miss those days of being able to run around screaming, and don't really begrudge them to him.
 
2012-06-26 11:29:47 AM

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Let me first admit I DNRTFA, but my point isn't about that. It's about the more general effects I've personally observed of drugs like this.

They make people crazy. Like, want-to-slap-then kind of crazy. Shut-the-fark-up kind of crazy. I'm sure they have a number of beneficial effects also. But these side effects are disturbing to me.

I have a friend who's on a few of them. (I don't know which ones, or how many, but it's all speed of one kind of or another.) It's made him very hard to deal with, and I can only take him in short doses now because of it. He finds it very hard now to do things such as:
- Give a short, simple answer to a short, simple question, such as, "Where are you right now?" Related: Answer exactly the question that was asked him, rather than the entire set of possible interpretations and related questions that he might imagine are involved; he feels compelled to answer as many possible imaginary questions at once, just in case -- sometimes excluding the one that was actually asked.
- Handle more than one thing at a time. It's not as bad as walk and chew gum, but it's not that far off either.
- Be spontaneous. Everything must be carefully planned now, down to the smallest detail. Just getting out the door can be a major ordeal.
- Dismissing the irrelevant. If it doesn't matter, then it does not matter. But now, everything matters, all the time, if it can be linked in any way.
- Metatalk. This is the one that drives me crazy the most: talking about talking. You might imagine it would be simple and obvious to just cut him off. But that's exactly the opposite of true. What that does is knock him off his mental rail, and start him on a fugue over what just happened and what it means. Which makes me very stabby.

The thing is, he didn't used to be like this at all. I knew him for over ten years before he was suddenly 'diagnosed' with ADHD and put on speed that now makes him unbearable. I use scorn quotes because he was much saner before he met the shr ...


just want to say thanks for that wall o text.

csb/
i work with a guy who has very similar traits as you just described. i'm not terribly great at describing it, but will try: never stops talking. ever. when he actually tries to act 'normal' - he'll ask me how my weekend was.. and before i can even say 'fine', he's off on a (literally) 7 minute grandstand about his own day.

for god's sake, he can't even tolerate someone else in the office asking about my baby. keep in mind that the office is staffed by his immediate family, i'm the only outsider. but it went down: 'inner ted, how's your little one'

before i can say more than 'he's doing great' - Yappy McYappington shouts over the top of me "i just can't relate, i don't have any kids."..... i mean... WTF??

this goes on all day long every day. his mom talks about how she never let "them know it all doctors" give him drugs when he was young and diagnosed as ADD - maybe he's one that could actually use it. a whole freaking lot of it.

/csb
//just nice to see that someone else shares a similar situation - i'm finished crying.
///bless this great job market.
 
2012-06-26 11:52:34 AM
I was an ADD kid. Took meds for 8 years and then realized, in university, that there are much more greener and less side-effect raddled treatments.
 
2012-06-26 11:57:44 AM

lewismarktwo: Well, it

would improve their scores!

You can't argue with that!
 
2012-06-26 12:13:37 PM

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Let me first admit I DNRTFA, but my point isn't about that. It's about the more general effects I've personally observed of drugs like this.


my girlfriend is taking these meds sporadically to help her complete work. (she has a medium-high-profile creative job in the Hollywood industry). i didn't know shiat about them before meeting her, and i didn't know she was on them until a few months into our relationship.

the generic name for them is "amphetamine salts" so right there you know where those drugs are headed.

she saw a therapist who referred her to a psychologist who prescribed her these off-label as "mood enhancers" or "performance enhancers." needless to say, they haven't helped her mood or performance, at least in my opinion. it makes no sense. how can you finish college on a full-ride scholarship, get into the hollywood industry and be really successful for 10 years, and then all of a sudden need this crap? it's not like i'm unsympathetic--my dad was on lithium my entire life so i know chemical imbalance when i see it.

i think using it in this way is even worse than just over-prescribing it. going on and off a psychotropic med is really destabilizing and dangerous.

they're gonna kill your sons with this stuff.

anyway, enough c.s.b. confessional. it sucks. bad. my sympathies for your friend and your lawyer.
 
2012-06-26 12:34:57 PM

IrateShadow: I'm not going to jump on the "ADD isn't real" bandwagon, but how the hell can you tell at 6? Unless the kid is majorly destructive, being a running, screaming, scatterbrained, annoying shiat is pretty standard for kids that age.


Actually, it's not hard. I have two boys- one is a run-everywhere, can't sit still for 30 seconds, doesn't like to read, gonna do somersaults constantly during soccer kind of kid.

The other has ADHD.

When your kid comes home in tears because he's getting bad reports from his teacher for misbehavior that *he can't stop* you need to do something. He's extremely bright and does very well in school, but he simply couldn't stop talking in class, no matter what. He couldn't stop getting up to bug other kids, even when he was trying his hardest. The "OHH SHINY" thing is real- you can sit him down, explain a simple one-step task (go to your room and pick up your dirty clothes) and he will literally forget halfway there when he sees a book he wants to look at. He can't even focus on a video game for very long.

It's been a struggle to find a regimen that works- we've tried most of the pharmacopeia as well as diet and counseling. It's going to be a life long effort for him.
 
2012-06-26 12:49:05 PM

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Let me first admit I DNRTFA, but my point isn't about that. It's about the more general effects I've personally observed of drugs like this.


You're just taking one anecdotal situation and applying it to all cases. That won't work, because human brains are complex organs consisting of countless biochemicals constantly in a precarious balance. To complicate matters, each person's genetics are slightly different, and sometimes the difference results in a different brain structure or brain chemistry, sometimes it doesn't.

For your friend, maybe it's possible that he responds differently to ADHD medication, or maybe the issue is that he actually has something else than ADHD and the ADHD medications are messing him up more. The worst thing you can do is look at him and conclude that all ADHD treatments are damaging to anyone. Also the worst thing you could do is conclude that all ADHD treatments are great for everyone.

It's different for each case. For people with true ADHD, the meds will help them relax and focus, for people without it, it could possibly cause ADHD, or maybe it'll help them super-focus, or maybe it'll just cause weird things. At this stage in science, there's no real way to ethically measure these things (you could of course kill someone and analyze their brain detail in a centrifuge and take cross-section slices, which of course would be utterly horrifying and unethical).

ADHD meds mess with the dopamine system, generally by causing more of it to be released. Too much dopamine can result in psychosis (or maybe it doesn't - maybe it causes aggression instead), too little dopamine can result in things like Parkinson's (or maybe it doesn't - maybe it causes ADHD or depression instead). There just absolutely does not exist a linear relationship to the levels of chemicals in the brain and the resulting effects ... changing levels generates upstream or downstream effects, sometimes giving paradoxical results or affecting unexpected areas of the brain. It's just a clusterfark of complicated causes and effects, so give science a chance before you demonize it due to your crazy friend.
 
2012-06-26 12:51:34 PM
Oh, also, in my opinion it is unethical to give 6 year olds ADHD meds because a 6 year olds brain still has a couple decades left of development. But then again, maybe these kids are the extreme outliers and have some extremely obvious impairment - who even knows, journalists never know what they're talking about.
 
2012-06-26 01:05:08 PM
This article just pisses me off. I think drugs should be a last resort after trying all else (because there are times when pharmaceutical intervention is useful). I'm still holding out on pills for my son who can't concentrate on anything for more than a milisecond. Working with them myself, occupational therapy, social skills and other such things have been in place since a very early age for both of them and no matter how hard things get, I keep going because the more they learn, the easier it'll be to cope.

The problem is that with children, typical or otherwise, brain development is highly affected by the type of feedback they get from their environment and their support structure. Pills can't do that. ADD/ADHD and Spectrum brains are wired with too many overactive short-range connections and are lacking in long-range connections. Because of this information clog, their thoughts have trouble translating into physical manifestations and vice versa (ex. thought to speech, hearing to understanding, sight to literary center). All medicine does is speed up those long-range connections between the different parts of the brain so that the densely packed, overactive signals of the local parts of the brain can push through the clogged pathways. That's how it works and in extreme cases, the benefits of medicine outweigh the risks of allowing there to be behavioral consequences. But coping skills, responsibility, etc. can only come from responsible parenting and good educational services.

/2 children w/PDD-NOS
//Aspie Mom
 
2012-06-26 01:08:19 PM

Marine1: TrainingWheelsNeeded: This is more than asinine, criminal if you ask me. Breeding a new generation of speed freaks is just reckless. Clearly mj would be better for hyperactive 6 year olds but nooo, thank you Big Pharma and empty War on Drugs.

If you actually need ADHD medication, you won't be a speed freak. You're just making up for something that's not there.


That's me. I don't even notice 30mg extended release adderal each day. But I do want to take a nap around noon if I forget to take one.
 
2012-06-26 01:08:48 PM

inner ted: csb/
i work with a guy who has very similar traits as you just described. i'm not terribly great at describing it, but will try: never stops talking. ever. when he actually tries to act 'normal' - he'll ask me how my weekend was.. and before i can even say 'fine', he's off on a (literally) 7 minute grandstand about his own day.

for god's sake, he can't even tolerate someone else in the office asking about my baby. keep in mind that the office is staffed by his immediate family, i'm the only outsider. but it went down: 'inner ted, how's your little one'

before i can say more than 'he's doing great' - Yappy McYappington shouts over the top of me "i just can't relate, i don't have any kids."..... i mean... WTF??

this goes on all day long every day. his mom talks about how she never let "them know it all doctors" give him drugs when he was young and diagnosed as ADD - maybe he's one that could actually use it. a whole freaking lot of it.

/csb
//just nice to see that someone else shares a similar situation - i'm finished crying.
///bless this great job market.


Yep, this is my ADHD one to a tee. He *cannot* stay out of other people's conversations. If something is going on he has to interject, and he can monologue for hours after that. It's a real issue when trying to discipline my other child

#2 son does X which is something bad
Me: "#2, come here. What did you just do?"
#1 son: "Well, he did X and Y and he was about to do Z and I saw him trying to...."
Me: "#1, stop talking, I need to talk to #2. #2, what did we say about doing X?"
#1 son: "#2 knows that he's not supposed to do X- he got in trouble for it yesterday and you took away his dessert"
Me: "#1, STOP TALKING, LEAVE THE ROOM. Now, #2, what did we say about..."
#1 son: "You have to take away his dessert again and..."
Me: "#1, OK, come here and stand against the wall in timeout. I'll now have to deal with punishing you instead of #2"
#2 leaves happily, having gotten away with it, #1 gets very upset.

This repeats endlessly in my house- you basically have to force #1 to go to his room and shut the door, then go to the other side of the house to discipline #2 which is tough when #2 is a typical young boy with a 30 second attention span and has forgotten all about X and why you're annoyed by the time you've corralled #1.
 
2012-06-26 01:17:10 PM

GoddessofSnowandIce:
/2 children w/PDD-NOS
//Aspie Mom


Why is it that aspie parents in the news seem to think that they know more than scientists who are specializing in such things? This is where we get people like Jenny McCarthy.
 
2012-06-26 01:19:48 PM

ModernPrimitive01: My wife and I both have Master's degrees in Counseling. She sees families so she comes into contact with more children than I do, but basically what you get is families who come in with one kid out of control, acting out, not paying attention, etc. and the parents want you to "fix" their kid. Now ADHD is real, it shouldn't be diagnosed until at least puberty in my opinion but if you ever meet someone with real ADHD it is really debilitating. 99.99% of people that say my kid as ADHD or ADD is horribly wrong.

I gotta say also that there are so many side effects of psychotropic drugs especially in children. If you put your kid on a drug for ADD and then decide to stop, the withdrawal effects often mirror ADHD and ADD symptoms. People get stuck in this loop of trying to get their kid off the drugs, but every time little Timmy stops, his symptoms come back reinforcing your belief in the label.

/best option is not to give your child drugs
//also don't take drugs yourself, there are lots of non drug related therapies


My 7yr old has been in special ed classes since he started kindergarten and the school district we are in has just been great. My biggest worry was that they were going to push us towards medication, and they haven't at all. BUT, his behavior is getting worse, not better, and there aren't as many options after the second grade. We're probably going to start him on something next month.

I'm not as worried about it now, because I got myself on Addreall last year, at the age of 41. It has changed my life, I can only imagine where I'd be if I had started taking it in school.
 
2012-06-26 01:32:17 PM

Glockenspiel Hero: inner ted: csb/
i work with a guy who has very similar traits as you just described. i'm not terribly great at describing it, but will try: never stops talking. ever. when he actually tries to act 'normal' - he'll ask me how my weekend was.. and before i can even say 'fine', he's off on a (literally) 7 minute grandstand about his own day.

for god's sake, he can't even tolerate someone else in the office asking about my baby. keep in mind that the office is staffed by his immediate family, i'm the only outsider. but it went down: 'inner ted, how's your little one'

before i can say more than 'he's doing great' - Yappy McYappington shouts over the top of me "i just can't relate, i don't have any kids."..... i mean... WTF??

this goes on all day long every day. his mom talks about how she never let "them know it all doctors" give him drugs when he was young and diagnosed as ADD - maybe he's one that could actually use it. a whole freaking lot of it.

/csb
//just nice to see that someone else shares a similar situation - i'm finished crying.
///bless this great job market.

Yep, this is my ADHD one to a tee. He *cannot* stay out of other people's conversations. If something is going on he has to interject, and he can monologue for hours after that. It's a real issue when trying to discipline my other child

#2 son does X which is something bad
Me: "#2, come here. What did you just do?"
#1 son: "Well, he did X and Y and he was about to do Z and I saw him trying to...."
Me: "#1, stop talking, I need to talk to #2. #2, what did we say about doing X?"
#1 son: "#2 knows that he's not supposed to do X- he got in trouble for it yesterday and you took away his dessert"
Me: "#1, STOP TALKING, LEAVE THE ROOM. Now, #2, what did we say about..."
#1 son: "You have to take away his dessert again and..."
Me: "#1, OK, come here and stand against the wall in timeout. I'll now have to deal with punishing you instead of #2"
#2 leaves happily, having gotten away with it, #1 gets v ...


too bad i can't send my boss to the 'timeout' corner, cause it's painful obvious that his mommy never did. it's sickening really.

if i can offer any advice, i suppose it would be to hold that little shiat accountable like the rest of the world.

or open your own business so that the precious one won't have to deal with the real world and can just act like a spoiled shiat clear through adult hood.

cause i guarantee if you just cover up for their crazy acts, it will only get worse and worse as they get older. and if they have to operate in the real world like the rest of us, they will just fail all the way around and curl up in a ball.

/end rant
 
2012-06-26 01:42:50 PM

torusXL: GoddessofSnowandIce:
/2 children w/PDD-NOS
//Aspie Mom

Why is it that aspie parents in the news seem to think that they know more than scientists who are specializing in such things? This is where we get people like Jenny McCarthy.


I'm not claiming to know more. I do know more than the average person as I work in the medical industry. Before making a scientific claim, I review all the evidence available to me and account for all variables that might not have been considered in any one particular study (peer review of medical journals).

Also, Aspies can understand what their children are going through better because they've been through it themselves. They have a unique perspective. This is not to say they are superior parents over those who aren't on the spectrum who have ADD/ADHD or spectrum kids. We have our faults too (overstimulation, looping thoughts, etc.) that typical parents don't usually have.

I was just stating that I was an Aspie mom to show that I'm not for quick fixes even though I myself am going through similar circumstances to my children. Take from that what you will.
 
2012-06-26 01:44:57 PM
torusXL

P.S. Jenny McCarthy is a sensationalist ditzy Playboy model and brainless koont. I'm a down-to-earth, educated person who works in clinical research. There's a big difference in my conclusions versus hers.
 
2012-06-26 01:46:43 PM

inner ted: too bad i can't send my boss to the 'timeout' corner, cause it's painful obvious that his mommy never did. it's sickening really.

if i can offer any advice, i suppose it would be to hold that little shiat accountable like the rest of the world.

or open your own business so that the precious one won't have to deal with the real world and can just act like a spoiled shiat clear through adult hood.

cause i guarantee if you just cover up for their crazy acts, it will only get worse and worse as they get older. and if they have to operate in the real world like the rest of us, they will just fail all the way around and curl up in a ball.

/end rant


You're making an error here- your boss (probably) and my son (certainly) aren't "little shiats", and I seriously resent your insinuations that I'm raising one.

ADHD is a disease, mostly but not totally treatable. It's a biological condition caused by some brain chemistry issues, kind of like Parkinsons. You control it with medications and therapy as best you can, but you cannot simply pretend that some proper discipline can fix it. It would be like yelling at a Parkinsons-afflicted person who knocked a glass of water over on you- it's not that they wanted to do that, it's that they are physically unable to not do it.

It is *not* their fault that they have it. Nobody in their right mind would want the condition. Perhaps you should work on your compassion for people struggling with a difficult situation rather than simply calling them "little shiats"
 
2012-06-26 01:58:15 PM

torusXL: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Let me first admit I DNRTFA, but my point isn't about that. It's about the more general effects I've personally observed of drugs like this.

You're just taking one anecdotal situation and applying it to all cases. That won't work, because human brains are complex organs consisting of countless biochemicals constantly in a precarious balance. To complicate matters, each person's genetics are slightly different, and sometimes the difference results in a different brain structure or brain chemistry, sometimes it doesn't.


I thought I was pretty clear about "effects I've personally observed," rather than "all cases," but perhaps I wasn't. I can't speak to anything I haven't a) directly observed myself, or b) gained about from a reputable source. I've read very little about all this generally, because my interest is very immediate to those I know. So I have no opinion about other cases, because I'm unfamiliar with them. I can only say that for the two people I know who are taking these kinds of meds, it seems to do crazy shiat to them, and that's very unsettling to me. But I don't assume that this 100% correlation in my extremely small sample group implies anything about any other cases. What I *can* and *do* say is that it's evidently not good for everyone, and I believe I've got good reason to suspect that not all professionals in a position to offer such medication seem to know what they're doing, or at least don't seem to be following their patients closely enough to assess the secondary effects I believe I've observed.
 
2012-06-26 02:07:40 PM

Glockenspiel Hero: inner ted: too bad i can't send my boss to the 'timeout' corner, cause it's painful obvious that his mommy never did. it's sickening really.

if i can offer any advice, i suppose it would be to hold that little shiat accountable like the rest of the world.

or open your own business so that the precious one won't have to deal with the real world and can just act like a spoiled shiat clear through adult hood.

cause i guarantee if you just cover up for their crazy acts, it will only get worse and worse as they get older. and if they have to operate in the real world like the rest of us, they will just fail all the way around and curl up in a ball.

/end rant

You're making an error here- your boss (probably) and my son (certainly) aren't "little shiats", and I seriously resent your insinuations that I'm raising one.

ADHD is a disease, mostly but not totally treatable. It's a biological condition caused by some brain chemistry issues, kind of like Parkinsons. You control it with medications and therapy as best you can, but you cannot simply pretend that some proper discipline can fix it. It would be like yelling at a Parkinsons-afflicted person who knocked a glass of water over on you- it's not that they wanted to do that, it's that they are physically unable to not do it.

It is *not* their fault that they have it. Nobody in their right mind would want the condition. Perhaps you should work on your compassion for people struggling with a difficult situation rather than simply calling them "little shiats"


easy francis.
every little kid is a 'little shiat' - mine too.
i was advocating that you don't give him a pass solely because of his 'disease'. that you hold him accountable for his actions, lest he grow up to be similar to my boss (aka: a grown up little shiat)

and forgive me and my lack of compassion for a 'disease' that gets tossed about like a plaything.

bratty kid?? add
weird kid?? add
loud kid?? add
energetic kid?? add

i understand it is a real thing, just seems that kids get that label far too easily these days. (i'm sure the pharmaceutical companies have nothing to do with this.)
as some have already pointed out: how much of that is a real 'disease' and how much of that is lazy or disinterested parents?
 
2012-06-26 02:20:04 PM
I have a nephew who had to take Ritalin. It had little to nothing to do with school performance. He pedaled his legs all night like he was riding a bicycle. It was obvious he was tired, but he slept extremely little. He would get so exhausted that he would rock back and forth and bang his head repeatedly into the floor or headboard and he still would not be able to sleep. Watching him go was like watching a chipmunk on cocaine tear around the house. A trip to the grocery store with him was a harrowing experience. The Ritalin let him sleep. It ended the head banging so he didn't have to held to keep him from injuring himself.

I have grave misgivings about medicating a child merely so they can perform better in school or on tests. When did school become the goal of all of life? When did school become more important than health itself?

Last year, I substituted in a classroom with a six or seven year old child with behavior patterns like Glockenspiel is describing. His parents are opting against drugs. The classroom teacher allows this child to alternate academic work with jumping rope and practicing a child's' version of yoga. All the children are allowed to move at will around the classroom. This child is allowed to stand to work, if that helps. Still, s/he gets so disruptive sometimes that the teacher belts him/her into a chair. You would think being tied to a chair would upset the kid, but it doesn't upset him/her at all. Often the child will say something like "Maybe, now I can do my work." The teacher might reply "That's the spirit! You just do your best." But the child can't remember s/he is belted to the chair. S/he tries repeatedly to get up and then gets the giggles. This child is very sweet and friendly and with all the work his/her parents put in, I really wouldn't be surprised if they and the child succeed in teaching him/her to cope without medication.
 
2012-06-26 02:26:12 PM

Ned Stark: Is it really that important that the kiddos make "good grades"?


I think education is a very valuable thing, but I don't believe that everyone who goes to school is educated, or that grades prove they are. And I also don't believe that formal schooling is necessary for everyone who desires an education, just a lot of people. If you really want to learn, you can teach yourself, with a little guidance. I know self-taught people who are much better educated than most people with college degrees.
 
2012-06-26 02:55:03 PM
I was diagnosed with ADD 2 years ago (I'm 37), have been taking Ritalin and it has changed my life. I can actually get work done and not waste my time on the net (I'm at lunch now so it's okay), I'm not constantly talking and annoying people and I can actually read a book without skipping around.

My 6 year old son was just evaluated for it and before they even gave him a diagnosis (which is that he has "symptoms" but not enough to be considered ADD), they asked if I wanted him on meds. I immediately said no, which actually surprised them and they commended me on that. For me to be on meds is one thing, my system has full developed, but for a 6 year old who is still growing both physically and mentally to be put on them is out of the question in my eyes. I've changed his diet (no more artificial colors or processed sugars) and it has made a huge difference. All I'm saying is before parents dope their kids up, do a little research, diet changes and maybe a little therapy.
 
2012-06-26 03:34:18 PM
To be clear: it isn't the application of drugs to a documented brain disorder that bugs me.

It's not even the application of drugs to a documented brain disorder in 6-year-olds that bugs me.

It's the rather blithe insistence that this is the ONLY way (or the only successful way) to treat people (kids and adults) with ADD/ADHD.


Drugs are a treatment. They are a tool to manage a problem. Sometimes they may not always be the right tool. They are certainly not. A. Solution. I've seen drugs used to great positive effect in kids' lives. I've also seen them used to great negative effect.

/Diagnosed with ADD at Age 12.
//Never medicated.
///Attended "sped school" for about 6 years.
////Learned a lot about his weaknesses and strengths.
//Learned how to compensate for his problems.
//Gifted IQ, performs exceedingly well on most Standardized achievement tests
//Slightly under-average performance in Math.
//Now age 34.
//Doing just fine, thanks.
//Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD.
//SLASHESZOMG!
 
2012-06-26 04:38:25 PM
I realise now that I shouldn't have used the term 'fuguing'. In one interpretation, it does accurately describe the behaviour I'm trying to describe. But in context of a discussion about psychology and psychotropic drugs, it's too easy to confuse with the psychological term 'fugue' (as in 'fugue state'), which means something completely different. Poor choice of words on my part.

I'm drawing the term from music, where a 'fugue' is a section or piece of music that repeats the same phrase or motif over and over, with only slight variations and little or no thematic progression. (J.S. Bach's famous 'Toccata and Fugue in D minor' is, appropriate to the name, a good example -- and also a good impression of how these conversations sometimes go.) This describes the behaviour I'm talking about, though not adequately. When my friend is doing what I call 'fuguing,' he's not advancing in the conversation past a point that's rationally irrelevant, if that point seems to him unresolved -- even if it's otherwise entirely irrelevant to anything else, or anyONE else. He'll just talk in circles, and keep coming back to it, over and over, until he's satisfied that he's processed the irrelevancy enough. This can be maddening, because a great deal of human conversation and intercourse, and a great deal of the information we *could* convey, simply isn't relevant, or desirable to discuss or even hear for many of us. But he often has great difficulty just letting go of things that don't matter, and it can be a real trial of patience to deal with.

I don't know what the correct psychological term for this is, or if there is one.
 
2012-06-26 05:20:40 PM
Diagnosing a 6 year old with ADHD is simply diagnosing a 6 year old as being 6 years old.

WTF kind of math are they having 6 year olds do? And I say this as a parent of an 8 year old.
 
2012-06-26 05:27:00 PM

MindStalker: Splinshints: SkunkWerks: This headline conspicuously misses the bit where these 6-year-olds have already been diagnosed with ADHD.

This is Fark. ADHD isn't real. Everyone diagnosed with ADHD just eats too much sugar and doesn't exercise enough and everybody who gives their kids ADHD medicine are horrible parents.

Case study of One. My kid had horrible grades in elementary school, she had trouble concentrating but was smart. We eventually put her on an ADD medication in middle school, she immediately improved and wanted to be taken off the medication just 2 months late, because it made her feel strange. Her grades stayed high because she had the renewed confidence that she was smart enough to do her homework, before she didn't think it was possible. Shes doing great. Odd story.


Good story.
FTFY
 
2012-06-26 05:29:29 PM

Evil Twin Skippy: Diagnosing a 6 year old with ADHD is simply diagnosing a 6 year old as being 6 years old.


This is what people who don't actually have a damn clue really believe. Hint: ADHD isn't always what you think it is. It's not always the kid that's up and energetic and running around: a lot of times it's the unusually quiet kid that sits at the back of the class, all nervous and awkward, and not handing in his homework because he's only barely aware of even where he or she is because they are unable to make themselves focus on anything that they need to focus on.
Doing away with ADD as a diagnosis in the early 90s and putting both disorders under the umbrella of ADHD(and there is a LOT of evidence to suggest that it really is twoo separate disorders) has done a lot of harm.
 
2012-06-26 05:41:43 PM

ModernPrimitive01: My wife and I both have Master's degrees in Counseling. She sees families so she comes into contact with more children than I do, but basically what you get is families who come in with one kid out of control, acting out, not paying attention, etc. and the parents want you to "fix" their kid. Now ADHD is real, it shouldn't be diagnosed until at least puberty in my opinion but if you ever meet someone with real ADHD it is really debilitating. 99.99% of people that say my kid as ADHD or ADD is horribly wrong. The kid, more than likely a high energy young boy, internalizes that message. All the sudden if he isn't doing well in school, he could buckle down and work harder but man he's got ADD. Most of the time the problem lies within the family dynamic. He is acting out for a reason that involves everyone but as soon as they can label him with a disorder the parents don't have to take any responsibility for their own actions. It's a pattern that I see over and over. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the parents in every case, but family changes will get you much better results than starting your child down a road of lifetime drug taking.

I gotta say also that there are so many side effects of psychotropic drugs especially in children. If you put your kid on a drug for ADD and then decide to stop, the withdrawal effects often mirror ADHD and ADD symptoms. People get stuck in this loop of trying to get their kid off the drugs, but every time little Timmy stops, his symptoms come back reinforcing your belief in the label.

/best option is not to give your child drugs
//also don't take drugs yourself, there are lots of non drug related therapies


I've seen kids turn into zombies. I've seen kids turn into violent whirlwinds.
I've seen kids gain, and lose, weight.
I know a SIX YEAR OLD that has been diagnosed as bi-polar.
It's fu(king scary.

/I stayed in 20+ years of clinical depression, got further F'ed up by trying Chantix...pain management and such has caused me to try some drugs that help w/pain, but are also used for mental illnesses. Now I don't wake up 4 or 5 times a month wanting to die. I didn't need to suffer that long. Don't tell people not to try drug therapies.
Drugs saved my life many times as a kid w/severe asthma, so I got no trouble taking meds. But I steered clear of drug therapies for my mental health, for the same reasons you describe- other methods.

That being said, I agree about the loop, I've watched a few kids go round and round.
You are so absolutely right about the pharma approach for children. Labels, side effects- some of these poor kids don't even have a life until high school ends, and they can get out of the one-size-fits-all mentality.

So what am I saying? Keep doing what you do, you and your lady... we need you.
 
2012-06-26 05:47:46 PM

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Let me first admit I DNRTFA, but my point isn't about that. It's about the more general effects I've personally observed of drugs like this.

They make people crazy. Like, want-to-slap-then kind of crazy. Shut-the-fark-up kind of crazy. I'm sure they have a number of beneficial effects also. But these side effects are disturbing to me.

I have a friend who's on a few of them. (I don't know which ones, or how many, but it's all speed of one kind of or another.) It's made him very hard to deal with, and I can only take him in short doses now because of it. He finds it very hard now to do things such as:
- Give a short, simple answer to a short, simple question, such as, "Where are you right now?" Related: Answer exactly the question that was asked him, rather than the entire set of possible interpretations and related questions that he might imagine are involved; he feels compelled to answer as many possible imaginary questions at once, just in case -- sometimes excluding the one that was actually asked.
- Handle more than one thing at a time. It's not as bad as walk and chew gum, but it's not that far off either.
- Be spontaneous. Everything must be carefully planned now, down to the smallest detail. Just getting out the door can be a major ordeal.
- Dismissing the irrelevant. If it doesn't matter, then it does not matter. But now, everything matters, all the time, if it can be linked in any way.
- Metatalk. This is the one that drives me crazy the most: talking about talking. You might imagine it would be simple and obvious to just cut him off. But that's exactly the opposite of true. What that does is knock him off his mental rail, and start him on a fugue over what just happened and what it means. Which makes me very stabby.

The thing is, he didn't used to be like this at all. I knew him for over ten years before he was suddenly 'diagnosed' with ADHD and put on speed that now makes him unbearable. I use scorn quotes because he was much saner before he met the shrink than after. I'm sure the drugs help him in all kinds of ways, but he seems crazy to me most of the time now, and he didn't before.

Okay, sample group of one, I know. But then there's my lawyer, who's on very similar medication. And he's been getting crazier, too, in much the same way. Babbling, unilinear thinking, fuguing, and an apparent diminished awareness of himself in social context. Like my other friend, he doesn't seem to understand that people avoid him because he seems crazy. I avoid him myself now, as much as I can.

These drugs surely do help people in certain discrete ways. But I believe they also damage them, in other ways. Specifically, they seem to gradually build up secondary effects that start to look to me like an autism spectrum disorder. If I didn't know the first guy above, and was shown video of him from now and from ten years ago, and asked to guess which was 'before' or 'after' medical intervention, I'd immediately and very confidently guess wrong. Same with my lawyer: I knew him before this, also, and he was a much more functional person then. Now, he's increasingly dysfunctional. Both are extremely good at specific discrete tasks requiring concentration and memory. But both are increasingly -- and disturbingly -- poor at the task of living in society.

My own views here are obviously limited and myopic, and surely based at least partly in a great deal of my own ignorance, so I welcome any thoughts on them.


Great post! This is a discussion, I hope, rather than what Fark usually turns into.

I've seen what you describe happen to people.
Problem, I believe, lies in good diagnoses. Under the criteria, I know tons of folks that could get an ADD or ADHD diagnosis and some pills in a snap. Including me and the hubby. We have enough trouble with pain management. Too many pills or being treated like a crack whore because gasp! Percoset works for me.
 
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