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(AlterNet)   Doctor has medical license revoked for refusing to force a 10-year-old girl to give birth. This happened in A) Saudi Arabia B) Sudan C) Kansas   ( alternet.org) divider line
    More: Sick, medical licensure, Olds, Iowa, Dr. George Tiller, Sam Brownback, local board of health, late-term abortion, expert witnesses, mental disorders  
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9631 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Jun 2012 at 11:28 PM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-26 01:32:06 PM  

Dansker: I'm pretty sure that most US Democrats are Christians too.


A lot of Democrats are pretty shiatty people too.
 
2012-06-26 01:33:14 PM  

Biological Ali: Dansker: I'm pretty sure that most US Democrats are Christians too.

A lot of Democrats are pretty shiatty people too.


C'mon, we apologized for Ted Kennedy a LONG time ago.
 
2012-06-26 01:34:25 PM  

Biological Ali: Dansker: I'm pretty sure that most US Democrats are Christians too.

A lot of Democrats are pretty shiatty people too.


Anyone who identifies themselves as religious rather than spiritual and/or moral falls into column A (shiatty) in my book.
 
2012-06-26 01:34:27 PM  
So much trolling over a 10 year old rape victim. This is why we can't have nice things.
 
2012-06-26 01:35:49 PM  

Skirl Hutsenreiter: serial_crusher: I wonder what the circumstances were that caused the 10 year old girl to seek a late term abortion instead of a regular one. Probably none of my business, but there had better be several adults in jail over that whole situation.

Odds are: she didn't tell anyone until it was totally unavoidable. She might not have even known herself.


And to anyone who thinks that's unlikely, I remember being ten in Texas. Up to that point, my entire sex ed was a ten minute video sponsored by Tampax that amounted to, "One day soon, something very special will happen to you, and you'll need to start using pads and tampons. Use Tampax." In between shots of girls rollerblading, they flashed that diagram of the uterus and ovaries, but didn't explain what the hell they were. It was worse than worthless, and I would've been hopelessly confused if I hadn't had an older sister.

\As it was, I was only partly confused.
\\If that's urban Texas, imagine the Kansas kids.
 
2012-06-26 01:38:35 PM  

wotthefark: GentDirkly: wotthefark: Dude, you've got a lot of questions there, don't have time for them all, but I'm pretty sure John Calvin answered most of them ~500 years ago. Others were answered by Augustine and Aquinas. You want to have some higher level discussion, I'd advise going to those guys, not some random guy on the internet..

Aquinas - 900 years ago

St. Augustine of Hippo - 1800 years ago

Calvin - 600 years ago.

Yet you still use God as justification for law. Why not go back further? - shiat at least Ra had Maat (2375 BCE and 2345 BCE.)

Fallacy: Appeal to Tradition

something is better or correct simply because it is older, traditional, or "always has been done." This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

X is old or traditional
Therefore X is correct or better.

God does not give man law. Man gives man law.

Well, she talks to all the servants
About man and God and law.
Everybody says
She's the brains behind pa.
She's sixty-eight, but she says she's twenty-four.

I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more.

We live in the 21st century and we still can't figure this out due to ignorance of religious doctrine.


//Begin CSB

A few years back when we had things called "cd's" I made up a mix cd that was just different versions of Maggie's Farm. The artists ranged from Dylan, The Grateful Dead & Flatt & Scruggs to Rage Against the Machine. It was seriously epic. :-)

// End CSB
 
2012-06-26 01:39:27 PM  

Johnny Swank: I'm going to go on a limb and say there are far less evangelical biblethumpers that get off on this sort of legislation in the democratic ranks than republicans. Those are the really nutball christians. The rest of christians are too pussified to speak out against them, thus endorsing by proxy.


As far as I can tell, many people speak out against things like this in the US, including Democratic polticians.. Odds are that most of them consider themsekves Christian.
 
2012-06-26 01:43:15 PM  

Biological Ali: Dansker: I'm pretty sure that most US Democrats are Christians too.

A lot of Democrats are pretty shiatty people too.


Probably. A lot of people are shiatty, regardless of religion and politics.
 
2012-06-26 01:44:23 PM  
Forcing a ten year old kid to have birth is a death sentence! Though it IS possible for a ten year old to conceive, the fact remains that there are still portions of anatomy that are still too small to allow a safe birth to happen (it would have to pass through an opening in her pelvis that would be obviously be too narrow to allow it).

republicans are just plain f*cking sick and dangerous.
 
2012-06-26 01:52:21 PM  

mrshowrules: Dr Dreidel: mrshowrules: When does a fetus get a soul?

What happens to the soul when the fetus dies? Does it go back to heaven and wait for another sperm and egg somewhere else in the world to merge?

That depends. Do you want an actual answer to your question, or is this a "teach me everything while I stand on one foot LOLZ"? Also, according to which tradition do you want the answer? I can give you one slice of Judaism's take if you like.

Which religion is the most butthurt over religion in the US. Let's go with that one. I'm sorta standing on one foot LOLZ but if having a human soul is a key piece of their ideology, I'm curious how this is supposed to work. My only reference is the movie "The Seventh Sign" with Demi Moore (pre-boob job I believe).


In Judaism, there are three kind of "soul" - "life", common to plants, animals and humans; "motion", common to animals and humans; and "speech", which only humans have. (I think it actually refers to language rather than shared meaning through vocalizations, but that might just be the social scientist in me.)

According to the traditions I'm familiar with, there is the idea that souls are recyclable. They go to hell for a period of time (less than 12 months unless you were a real douchecanoe) to get the sins cleansed off them, then they wait in line for a new host. A "soul" is chosen to match a given fetus 40 days before sperm meets egg (I think that's what the phrase "40 days before conception, the drop [of semen/the single sperm cell that hits the egg] is designated" means in common parlance).

There's also the concept that fetuses are taught the entirety of The Law (Torah) in utero. The teaching angel touches the child's upper lip (which is where that divot comes from), causing them to forget all they've learned - it's to teach us that everyone is capable of becoming a scholar; you were one once before. That seems to imply the soul meets body at some point during fetal development, but I'm not that familiar with laws about miscarriages, stillbirths, etc.

I do know that male stillborn children get circumcised before burial. That's gotta be the saddest ceremony I can think of.

// but as demal-demal-yeH put it, "2 Jews, 3 opinions"
// I'm only familiar with some Jewish traditions
 
2012-06-26 01:55:14 PM  

GentDirkly: Whatever authority that exists has been put in place, that is to say established, by God. This is true of every government on earth today.


So you are claiming that Obama has the Mandate of Heaven? Then wouldn't it be a sin for someone to challenge God's judgement in choosing Obama by running against God's chosen President?
 
2012-06-26 01:58:17 PM  

serial_crusher: I wonder what the circumstances were that caused the 10 year old girl to seek a late term abortion instead of a regular one.


I suspect that she would have trouble getting a "regular abortion" in Kansas.
 
2012-06-26 01:58:51 PM  
At 10, one would think they'd go with the "statistically, going through labor will probably kill me" rationale, not the mental-health one.

Honestly, I can understand why the board would find the "mental health risk" excuse for terminating a viable or near-viable potential baby (talking about late-term here), that's kind of bullshiat. You should have made your decision well before the end of the second trimester, the only really valid reason I could see would be going in late because you were prevented from going in (a crime) or being younger than the age of consent and potentially not knowing what was going on (also a crime). If you're over the AoC and not actually diagnosed with something that makes you mentally incompetent, and there aren't any crimes related to your pregnancy, I think "too bad, should have thought of that earlier" is actually a pretty valid answer there.

Problem is that the state has been trying to fill the "prevented from reporting the pregnancy/getting help by an external entity" condition (which would be a PMITA prison level felony if a private individual did it), so some bullshiat is needed to get around that.

//Also, in the defense of the board, they appear to be objecting to the practice of giving a bogus psych diagnosis so the patient can get a medical procedure in general, not in the specific case of the ten year old. Making false diagnoses is frankly the kind of thing the boards are supposed to crack down on.
 
2012-06-26 02:05:14 PM  

Dansker: Biological Ali: Dansker: I'm pretty sure that most US Democrats are Christians too.

A lot of Democrats are pretty shiatty people too.

Probably. A lot of people are shiatty, regardless of religion and politics.


I meant that a lot of them are shiatty for the same religious reasons that most Republicans are shiatty. They only seem relatively better in that wanting to "only" ban gay marriage is relatively better than wanting to ban both gay marriage and abortion, for instance.
 
2012-06-26 02:06:24 PM  

pciszek: GentDirkly: Whatever authority that exists has been put in place, that is to say established, by God. This is true of every government on earth today.

So you are claiming that Obama has the Mandate of Heaven?


Yes.

Then wouldn't it be a sin for someone to challenge God's judgement in choosing Obama by running against God's chosen President?

That does not follow. Our laws call for open election of the President every four years, and permit public questioning of the President's or anyone else's policies at any time. For Obama or any other President to attempt to circumvent that process and become "President for Life" would violate the "Mandate of Heaven" in your words.
 
2012-06-26 02:06:25 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Also, in the defense of the board, they appear to be objecting to the practice of giving a bogus psych diagnosis so the patient can get a medical procedure in general, not in the specific case of the ten year old.


Not really. They might not have been targeting the specific case of the ten year old, but they did seem to be targeting a specific medical procedure. I saw nothing in the article about then going after any bogus psych diagnosis for other medical procedures.
 
2012-06-26 02:07:50 PM  

Jim_Callahan: At 10, one would think they'd go with the "statistically, going through labor will probably kill me" rationale, not the mental-health one.

Honestly, I can understand why the board would find the "mental health risk" excuse for terminating a viable or near-viable potential baby (talking about late-term here), that's kind of bullshiat. You should have made your decision well before the end of the second trimester, the only really valid reason I could see would be going in late because you were prevented from going in (a crime) or being younger than the age of consent and potentially not knowing what was going on (also a crime). If you're over the AoC and not actually diagnosed with something that makes you mentally incompetent, and there aren't any crimes related to your pregnancy, I think "too bad, should have thought of that earlier" is actually a pretty valid answer there.

Problem is that the state has been trying to fill the "prevented from reporting the pregnancy/getting help by an external entity" condition (which would be a PMITA prison level felony if a private individual did it), so some bullshiat is needed to get around that.

//Also, in the defense of the board, they appear to be objecting to the practice of giving a bogus psych diagnosis so the patient can get a medical procedure in general, not in the specific case of the ten year old. Making false diagnoses is frankly the kind of thing the boards are supposed to crack down on.


Statistically, a c-section will not kill her. Labor might. See Lina Medina.
 
2012-06-26 02:13:05 PM  

Dr Dreidel: mrshowrules: Dr Dreidel: mrshowrules: When does a fetus get a soul?

What happens to the soul when the fetus dies? Does it go back to heaven and wait for another sperm and egg somewhere else in the world to merge?

That depends. Do you want an actual answer to your question, or is this a "teach me everything while I stand on one foot LOLZ"? Also, according to which tradition do you want the answer? I can give you one slice of Judaism's take if you like.

Which religion is the most butthurt over religion in the US. Let's go with that one. I'm sorta standing on one foot LOLZ but if having a human soul is a key piece of their ideology, I'm curious how this is supposed to work. My only reference is the movie "The Seventh Sign" with Demi Moore (pre-boob job I believe).

In Judaism, there are three kind of "soul" - "life", common to plants, animals and humans; "motion", common to animals and humans; and "speech", which only humans have. (I think it actually refers to language rather than shared meaning through vocalizations, but that might just be the social scientist in me.)

According to the traditions I'm familiar with, there is the idea that souls are recyclable. They go to hell for a period of time (less than 12 months unless you were a real douchecanoe) to get the sins cleansed off them, then they wait in line for a new host. A "soul" is chosen to match a given fetus 40 days before sperm meets egg (I think that's what the phrase "40 days before conception, the drop [of semen/the single sperm cell that hits the egg] is designated" means in common parlance).

There's also the concept that fetuses are taught the entirety of The Law (Torah) in utero. The teaching angel touches the child's upper lip (which is where that divot comes from), causing them to forget all they've learned - it's to teach us that everyone is capable of becoming a scholar; you were one once before. That seems to imply the soul meets body at some point during fetal development, but I'm not that ...


Lots o' kaballah there.

That's why I tried to keep it simple: nefesh chaya.

Was it Lubavitchers? (You know I don't swing Eastern European.)
 
2012-06-26 02:13:31 PM  

Biological Ali: Dansker: Biological Ali: Dansker: I'm pretty sure that most US Democrats are Christians too.

A lot of Democrats are pretty shiatty people too.

Probably. A lot of people are shiatty, regardless of religion and politics.

I meant that a lot of them are shiatty for the same religious reasons that most Republicans are shiatty. They only seem relatively better in that wanting to "only" ban gay marriage is relatively better than wanting to ban both gay marriage and abortion, for instance.


That's almost, but not completely besides my point. I was saying that Christians are in control of both major political parties in the US. I did not in any way mean to imply that Christians are less shiatty than the average modern human.
 
2012-06-26 02:16:50 PM  

foo monkey: dahmers love zombie: Lionel Mandrake: A ten year-old pregnant with a rape/incest baby is A Gift From GOD!!

/sick f*cks

Sick farks is too charitable by a thousandfold.

You know what's an even better gift from God? Having a daughter or wife bleed out on the table because of a late-term placental abruption that was virtually certain due to pre-existing complications. Of course, an abortion would prevent such an event, but it's just such a loving gift from our Creator to watch our women die, isn't it?

What's even better is when it happens in the bathroom! God really, REALLY loves the sisters, brothers, sons and daughters of those women, and he shows his love by letting them watch and hold their loved one's hand as her heart slowly pumps all of her blood out of her vagina and onto the slick tile floor.

Another wonderful gift from God, and not a sign of mental health problems in the LEAST, is when a teen girl opens her brachial artery rather than admit to her family that she's pregnant with her own father's child. That's one of those gifts that's right thar in the Bible, it is.

You awful, reprehensible, disgusting anti-woman, anti-choice farktards. THIS is what you support. Roll around in it. Get absolutely filthy in it. Then show an ounce of redeeming human value and have the courage to at least admit it. You would rather see women die than see a fertilized egg fail to implant in the uterine wall. Admit it, filth. Admit it and I'll have an atom of respect for you.

Straw man. Try again.


Too much man, not enough straw.

Kurmudgeon: DistendedPendulusFrenulum: Religionists are making themselves a major nuisance. If organized religion does not want to find itself in the mids of a major backlash, it needs to do something about them.

Last time I heard a speech like that, it was from a guy in a pointed hood.


Yeah, the pope can say some pretty hateful shiat.

GentDirkly: I oppose abortion in the case of rape


You are part of the problem.
 
2012-06-26 02:16:52 PM  

coeyagi: Biological Ali: Dansker: I'm pretty sure that most US Democrats are Christians too.

A lot of Democrats are pretty shiatty people too.

Anyone who identifies themselves as religious rather than spiritual and/or moral falls into column A (shiatty) in my book.


People who generalize that much in their judging of others tend to fall into my column A, but only after I spend some time trying to get to know them.
 
2012-06-26 02:18:31 PM  

GentDirkly: dahmers love zombie: Lionel Mandrake: A ten year-old pregnant with a rape/incest baby is A Gift From GOD!!

/sick f*cks

Sick farks is too charitable by a thousandfold.

You know what's an even better gift from God? Having a daughter or wife bleed out on the table because of a late-term placental abruption that was virtually certain due to pre-existing complications. Of course, an abortion would prevent such an event, but it's just such a loving gift from our Creator to watch our women die, isn't it?

What's even better is when it happens in the bathroom! God really, REALLY loves the sisters, brothers, sons and daughters of those women, and he shows his love by letting them watch and hold their loved one's hand as her heart slowly pumps all of her blood out of her vagina and onto the slick tile floor.

Another wonderful gift from God, and not a sign of mental health problems in the LEAST, is when a teen girl opens her brachial artery rather than admit to her family that she's pregnant with her own father's child. That's one of those gifts that's right thar in the Bible, it is.

You awful, reprehensible, disgusting anti-woman, anti-choice farktards. THIS is what you support. Roll around in it. Get absolutely filthy in it. Then show an ounce of redeeming human value and have the courage to at least admit it. You would rather see women die than see a fertilized egg fail to implant in the uterine wall. Admit it, filth. Admit it and I'll have an atom of respect for you.

I oppose abortion in the case of rape, incest, or young maternal age, on religious grounds. However, when the life of the mother is at stake (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life), I would question the religion of anyone opposed to a life-saving treatment for a mother that happens to end the life of the fetus.


Maybe you're a troll, but I have to question the religion of anyone that thinks it's better for an innocent person to suffer because of the sins of others. But so long as you don't try to force that on other people by law, well, whatever. It's your thing to deal with.
 
2012-06-26 02:19:49 PM  

namegoeshere: serial_crusher: I wonder what the circumstances were that caused the 10 year old girl to seek a late term abortion instead of a regular one. Probably none of my business, but there had better be several adults in jail over that whole situation.

Well, for starters, a ten year old isn't going to recognize pregnancy symptoms, and may not cycle regularly enough to realize periods are missing. If she's a bit on the chubby side she might not show until well into the second trimester. And while an adult woman has no excuse, a ten year old rape/incest victim is 100% excused for being in denial of the pregnancy and wearing baggy things, blaming junk food for the weight gain, ect.

The pregnancy probably wasn't known to the parents until quite late.


Or she was perhaps ashamed, embarrassed and humiliated. You're a 10 year old girl. You've just gone through one of the most traumatic experiences you can even imagine. You think maybe you should keep it a secret and never tell anyone. Then you feel weird. Then you put the pieces together and realize you may be pregnant from that rape 2-3 months ago. Now you wait to see if that is the case. 1 month later, ok yeah, that's the case. Now to tell mom. Oh what if she says it's your fault? You're going to get in trouble for this. How to tell her... You'll tell her... now? No... later.

Time goes by and then finally one day this child has an absolute nervous break down and she confesses everything like word vomit or her pediatrician noted something way not normal and made her tell her mom.
 
2012-06-26 02:20:21 PM  

Dr Dreidel: In Judaism, there are three kind of "soul" - "life", common to plants, animals and humans; "motion", common to animals and humans; and "speech", which only humans have. (I think it actually refers to language rather than shared meaning through vocalizations, but that might just be the social scientist in me.)

According to the traditions I'm familiar with, there is the idea that souls are recyclable. They go to hell for a period of time (less than 12 months unless you were a real douchecanoe) to get the sins cleansed off them, then they wait in line for a new host. A "soul" is chosen to match a given fetus 40 days before sperm meets egg (I think that's what the phrase "40 days before conception, the drop [of semen/the single sperm cell that hits the egg] is designated" means in common parlance).

There's also the concept that fetuses are taught the entirety of The Law (Torah) in utero. The teaching angel touches the child's upper lip (which is where that divot comes from), causing them to forget all they've learned - it's to teach us that everyone is capable of becoming a scholar; you were one once before. That seems to imply the soul meets body at some point during fetal development, but I'm not that familiar with laws about miscarriages, stillbirths, etc.

I do know that male stillborn children get circumcised before burial. That's gotta be the saddest ceremony I can think of.

// but as demal-demal-yeH put it, "2 Jews, 3 opinions"
// I'm only familiar with some Jewish traditions


That was interesting. The 40 days before conception thing might be a fly in the appointment. Could be justification for rape to prevent murder I suppose. Also, the teachings in utero might have truancy implications if interrupted.
 
2012-06-26 02:20:40 PM  

GentDirkly:
Statistically, a c-section will not kill her.


I trust this estimate is based on extensive statistical material on pre-teen c-sections, doctor.
 
2012-06-26 02:22:32 PM  

GentDirkly: So you are claiming that Obama has the Mandate of Heaven?

Yes.

Then wouldn't it be a sin for someone to challenge God's judgement in choosing Obama by running against God's chosen President?

That does not follow. Our laws call for open election of the President every four years, and permit public questioning of the President's or anyone else's policies at any time. For Obama or any other President to attempt to circumvent that process and become "President for Life" would violate the "Mandate of Heaven" in your words.


Unless they were successful, in which case their coup must have been the Will of God.

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason." --John Harington
 
2012-06-26 02:22:36 PM  

justtray: GentDirkly: Dr Dreidel: GentDirkly: jcooli09: GentDirkly: I oppose abortion in the case of rape, incest, or young maternal age, on religious grounds.

Then you are mentally ill and/or just plain evil.

You're the one advocating baby-killing, not me.
It would be ethical to punish rape with the death penalty, sure. Not ideal (the ideal punishment is probably jail time or removal of testicles or both), but also not immoral. But the one receiving the punishment should be the rapist, not the baby.

And the 10-year-old? Her pain, suffering, risk of serious injury or death - and that's only until the fetus makes its way into God's Loving World - means nothing? What if she wants to keep the kid? Recall that this is a 10-year-old, someone who isn't legally allowed to medically consent to donating blood, and you're asking her to make a serious medical/life-altering choice, all because someone else took advantage of her. The state shouldn't allow a child to be responsible for a child of her own, it's basically asking CPS to live outside her house (or creating a case for them in <5 years).

There is no "good" solution. Everyone will suffer whether you do nothing or nuke it from orbit. For me, the choice that minimizes that damage as much as possible is the one where she doesn't have a kid at the end.

// and, preferably, the uncle gets tased in the nuts until Ragnarok, but that's less likely

Exactly. There is no good solution. I acknowledge openly that it might be easier on the (10 year old) mother to simply abort. But what's inside her is a human, and it is simply unethical to trade comfort for human life. I certainly would sympathize as much as my 28-year-old male genitalia allow me to with her 10-year-old pregnant plight, but we should react to her probable suffering over the course of the pregnancy not with, "Gosh, just let her abort" but rather with "Let's kick her uncle's nuts twice as hard!"

The idea that a life is established at conception is an irrational and unsustainable belief. Since your entire belief system is based on this, knowing that it is a falsehood renders the rest of your argument without merit.

Thank god you'll be dead by the time population controls come around. I'd hate to see your head spin when you are presented with the very real problem of too many humans on the planet, and no possible way to care for them all. The conservative abomb - not wanting to prevent life, while not wanting to support it. Hypocrisy 101, and they don't even refute it.


Wow, man. I'm pro abortion, and let me say: "You're not helping".
 
2012-06-26 02:24:13 PM  

Dansker: Biological Ali: Dansker: Biological Ali: Dansker: I'm pretty sure that most US Democrats are Christians too.

A lot of Democrats are pretty shiatty people too.

Probably. A lot of people are shiatty, regardless of religion and politics.

I meant that a lot of them are shiatty for the same religious reasons that most Republicans are shiatty. They only seem relatively better in that wanting to "only" ban gay marriage is relatively better than wanting to ban both gay marriage and abortion, for instance.

That's almost, but not completely besides my point. I was saying that Christians are in control of both major political parties in the US. I did not in any way mean to imply that Christians are less shiatty than the average modern human.


Ah, I see. I had assumed you brought it up in response to Swank's lots/most distinction, as a way to suggest that they could avoid being categorized as shiatty by virtue of being Democrats.
 
2012-06-26 02:29:25 PM  

GentDirkly: No. Whatever authority that exists has been put in place, that is to say established, by God. This is true of every government on earth today.


Supreme executive power is derived from a mandate from the masses. Not some farcical magical ceremony.
 
2012-06-26 02:34:04 PM  

GentDirkly: Jim_Callahan: At 10, one would think they'd go with the "statistically, going through labor will probably kill me" rationale, not the mental-health one.

Honestly, I can understand why the board would find the "mental health risk" excuse for terminating a viable or near-viable potential baby (talking about late-term here), that's kind of bullshiat. You should have made your decision well before the end of the second trimester, the only really valid reason I could see would be going in late because you were prevented from going in (a crime) or being younger than the age of consent and potentially not knowing what was going on (also a crime). If you're over the AoC and not actually diagnosed with something that makes you mentally incompetent, and there aren't any crimes related to your pregnancy, I think "too bad, should have thought of that earlier" is actually a pretty valid answer there.

Problem is that the state has been trying to fill the "prevented from reporting the pregnancy/getting help by an external entity" condition (which would be a PMITA prison level felony if a private individual did it), so some bullshiat is needed to get around that.

//Also, in the defense of the board, they appear to be objecting to the practice of giving a bogus psych diagnosis so the patient can get a medical procedure in general, not in the specific case of the ten year old. Making false diagnoses is frankly the kind of thing the boards are supposed to crack down on.

Statistically, a c-section will not kill her. Labor might. See Lina Medina.


Put up the stats. The best the CDC does is births to mothers "15 and under", which still includes about 5,000 births a year. So what are the stats on 10-year-olds and the rate of complications from C-sections at that age?

Well?
Because the rate of serious complications from c-sections is over 10%. The rate for abortions is 2.5%. And that's without accounting for her age, which puts her at a much higher risk of death.
 
2012-06-26 02:34:25 PM  

jcooli09: GentDirkly: I oppose abortion in the case of rape, incest, or young maternal age, on religious grounds.

Then you are mentally ill and/or just plain evil.


No, YOU'RE evil for suppressing religious freedom!

Like myself, for instance. I oppose farting in case of diet, medication, or over-exertion, on religious grounds.

If you don't make a law about it, you're an intolerant prick.

QED.
 
2012-06-26 02:35:34 PM  

Jim_Callahan:

//Also, in the defense of the board, they appear to be objecting to the practice of giving a bogus psych diagnosis so the patient can get a medical procedure in general, not in the specific case of the ten year old. Making false diagnoses is frankly the kind of thing the boards are supposed to crack down on.


See, here's where I perceive the problem. The state of Kansas came up with a regulation that in order to get this abortion, the patient must have a mental or physical problem to prevent them going to term. So a ten year old comes in pregnant. Perhaps she absolutely could have carried and delivered by cesarean, though this is not what she or her parents wanted. So the law states she must have a mental problem. The doctor goes through the checklist of things that could cause a mental problem, checks them off, then signs a document that the abortion is for the welfare of the mother's mental health. BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLY WAY IT COULD GO FORWARD.

Now, I ask you: What other medical procedure on a 10 year old requires a psychological evaluation of the 10 year old? Removing a tumor? No. Correcting a deformity? No. A tonsillectomy? No. In essence, there is no other procedure that would require this. Look at procedures for adults. Do you have to prove mental trauma to get a vasectomy? A nose job? An appendectomy? The law was put into place to make it difficult for women (and yes, ten year old girls) to have abortions. Not because it was actually needed.

The state of Kansas has hounded Tiller (who now lies in his grave -- assassinated), and everyone who worked with him, for years and years. They have tried again and again to find a reason to shut down the ability of any woman in that state to have this medical procedure, regardless of circumstance. They are currently working to shut down Planned Parenthood services in the state by imposing ridiculous regulations on them. They really, really, want to go back to the days when an unwed mother was shamed and ridiculed. This, they feel, is the best form of birth control. They want it so bad, they are willing to enact laws that make no sense in any logical way. So they go to the most illogical reasoning possible: God said.
 
2012-06-26 02:39:40 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: GentDirkly: Jim_Callahan: At 10, one would think they'd go with the "statistically, going through labor will probably kill me" rationale, not the mental-health one.

Honestly, I can understand why the board would find the "mental health risk" excuse for terminating a viable or near-viable potential baby (talking about late-term here), that's kind of bullshiat. You should have made your decision well before the end of the second trimester, the only really valid reason I could see would be going in late because you were prevented from going in (a crime) or being younger than the age of consent and potentially not knowing what was going on (also a crime). If you're over the AoC and not actually diagnosed with something that makes you mentally incompetent, and there aren't any crimes related to your pregnancy, I think "too bad, should have thought of that earlier" is actually a pretty valid answer there.

Problem is that the state has been trying to fill the "prevented from reporting the pregnancy/getting help by an external entity" condition (which would be a PMITA prison level felony if a private individual did it), so some bullshiat is needed to get around that.

//Also, in the defense of the board, they appear to be objecting to the practice of giving a bogus psych diagnosis so the patient can get a medical procedure in general, not in the specific case of the ten year old. Making false diagnoses is frankly the kind of thing the boards are supposed to crack down on.

Statistically, a c-section will not kill her. Labor might. See Lina Medina.

Put up the stats. The best the CDC does is births to mothers "15 and under", which still includes about 5,000 births a year. So what are the stats on 10-year-olds and the rate of complications from C-sections at that age?

Well?
Because the rate of serious complications from c-sections is over 10%. The rate for abortions is 2.5%. And that's without accounting for her age, which puts her at a much higher risk of death.


And the risk to the baby in your scenario is 100%. Your point is not persuasive.
 
2012-06-26 02:41:42 PM  

mrshowrules: That was interesting. The 40 days before conception thing might be a fly in the appointment. Could be justification for rape to prevent murder I suppose. Also, the teachings in utero might have truancy implications if interrupted.


Well, all of that is, as demal-demal-yeH said, very kabbalistic. I'm not sure any of it is Old-Testament-textual. None of it supersedes the textual stuff.

So the bit about only paying an expectant mother if you cause her to miscarry vs death* if you accidentally kill someone's child (either Exodus or Deuteronomy; I can't remember) seems to suggest a difference in the legal status of a fetus vs an actual child. Since "souls" aren't mentioned or described in the Old Testament, they take a backseat to what is mentioned there.

FWIW, IIRC Judaism permits very early (like first 5 weeks of pregnancy) abortions without any qualification. Also, a fetus which threatens the life of the mother-to-be is considered a "pursuing attacker" and may be aborted to save its mother's life at any stage of pregnancy (based on Sanhedrin 73a).

* Not actually the "string-em-up" death penalty, but a kind of revenge rights thing involving the perpetrator escaping to a sanctuary city.
 
2012-06-26 02:47:30 PM  

mrshowrules: Dr Dreidel: In Judaism, there are three kind of "soul" - "life", common to plants, animals and humans; "motion", common to animals and humans; and "speech", which only humans have. (I think it actually refers to language rather than shared meaning through vocalizations, but that might just be the social scientist in me.)

According to the traditions I'm familiar with, there is the idea that souls are recyclable. They go to hell for a period of time (less than 12 months unless you were a real douchecanoe) to get the sins cleansed off them, then they wait in line for a new host. A "soul" is chosen to match a given fetus 40 days before sperm meets egg (I think that's what the phrase "40 days before conception, the drop [of semen/the single sperm cell that hits the egg] is designated" means in common parlance).

There's also the concept that fetuses are taught the entirety of The Law (Torah) in utero. The teaching angel touches the child's upper lip (which is where that divot comes from), causing them to forget all they've learned - it's to teach us that everyone is capable of becoming a scholar; you were one once before. That seems to imply the soul meets body at some point during fetal development, but I'm not that familiar with laws about miscarriages, stillbirths, etc.

I do know that male stillborn children get circumcised before burial. That's gotta be the saddest ceremony I can think of.

// but as demal-demal-yeH put it, "2 Jews, 3 opinions"
// I'm only familiar with some Jewish traditions

That was interesting. The 40 days before conception thing might be a fly in the appointment. Could be justification for rape to prevent murder I suppose. Also, the teachings in utero might have truancy implications if interrupted.


What I gave was consensus: At first breath.

What he gave was mysticism, but even that says that "full ensoulment", as it were, happens at first breath.

Suffice it to say, abortion is not taken lightly, and we've been discussing its ramifications for thousands of years.
 
2012-06-26 02:48:38 PM  

GentDirkly: Because the rate of serious complications from c-sections is over 10%. The rate for abortions is 2.5%. And that's without accounting for her age, which puts her at a much higher risk of death.

And the risk to the baby in your scenario is 100%. Your point is not persuasive.


What baby? I thought we were talking about a fetus in this thread?
 
2012-06-26 02:52:17 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Chances are if she didn't mention the rape, nobody thought that a 10-year old girl could be pregnant.


And that if she did mention the rape, no one believed her. The standard conservative response to rape is to first accuse the victim of making it up, then if the evidence is incontrovertible, accuse the victim of asking for it.
 
2012-06-26 02:56:42 PM  

pciszek: Gyrfalcon: Chances are if she didn't mention the rape, nobody thought that a 10-year old girl could be pregnant.

And that if she did mention the rape, no one believed her. The standard conservative response to rape is to first accuse the victim of making it up, then if the evidence is incontrovertible, accuse the victim of asking for it.


Slow your roll, fellah.

There is nothing "conservative" about being pro rape. That's a strictly religious viewpoint.

(Conservative != Religious)
 
2012-06-26 03:01:26 PM  

GentDirkly: And the risk to the baby in your scenario is 100%. Your point is not persuasive.


Look, dumbass, a fetus is not a baby.
Wrap your mind around that fact.
If you think that is false, please present your ConceptionDay Certificate issued by the State of Kansas (assuming you were born there). Pictures from your and your friends' ConceptionDay parties with appropriately-captioned banners would be good supporting evidence.

Once you've absorbed the fact that a fetus is not a baby, think through the moral ramifications of involuntarily enslaving an existing, living, breathing person - putting her in mortal danger - for the sake of a literal parasite that is, at most, a potential person.
 
2012-06-26 03:03:53 PM  
Another thread full of comments about how abortion is still some either a controversy or a socio-species abomination. Amazing.
 
2012-06-26 03:04:30 PM  

ox45tallboy: dr_blasto: 10-year-olds shouldn't be giving birth under any circumstances. Ever. No person of that age is equipped to deal with the trauma of pregnancy, let alone childbirth.

Let alone sex in the first place.

And, I know this is a separate issue, and probably very much overshadowed (and rightly so) by all the other things wrong with this story, but how the fark is a 10-year-old already past menarche? This isn't right, either.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the child probably doesn't have the best home life, considering she's been raped by her uncle, but what the hell are they feeding her that causes her to begin menstruating that early?


I got mine on my 10th bday and was regular from day 1.

I'm white, and it very rare. However, all of the women got it at age 10 in my family, even my grandmother and great grandmother. It seems to be passed on by mothers (my non matrilineal cousins got it later - 14ish).

Race also affects when you get it, with black girls getting it almost a year earlier than white girls. Surprisingly, there's also been research done showing that sexual abuse of children also seems to "hurry" up the puberty process as well (although I have no idea how that works).
 
2012-06-26 03:05:40 PM  

Leeds: There is nothing "conservative" about being pro rape. That's a strictly religious viewpoint.


While it is a popular viewpoint among the religious crowd, it is not limited to them. The officers in the US military who think "the problem" is women reporting rape rather than men committing rape may be religious, but that is not immediately obvious.
 
2012-06-26 03:06:16 PM  

coeyagi: I alone am best: coeyagi: Anyone who is anti-choice is also pro-botched-abortion. Just thought you should know.

Ahh, the old if we don't let them they will do it anyway and mess something up line of reasoning. I don't think we should negotiate with terrorists either.

So you're equating women who want to abort a fetus the same as terrorists? That's quaintly... retarded. Kudos!


Holy crap, you're about as sharp as a sack of wet mice. Idiot.
 
2012-06-26 03:11:43 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: GentDirkly: And the risk to the baby in your scenario is 100%. Your point is not persuasive.

Look, dumbass, a fetus is not a baby.
Wrap your mind around that fact.
If you think that is false, please present your ConceptionDay Certificate issued by the State of Kansas (assuming you were born there). Pictures from your and your friends' ConceptionDay parties with appropriately-captioned banners would be good supporting evidence.

Once you've absorbed the fact that a fetus is not a baby, think through the moral ramifications of involuntarily enslaving an existing, living, breathing person - putting her in mortal danger - for the sake of a literal parasite that is, at most, a potential person.


It's true in a sense. Even the Torah talks about the penalty for causing a miscarriage to be less than the penalty for murder. However, I really think the heirarchy of offense goes like this:

Murder of someone outside the womb > causing death in the womb > pretty much any non-life-threatening complaint the mother might have.
 
2012-06-26 03:13:01 PM  

I alone am best: coeyagi: I alone am best: coeyagi: Anyone who is anti-choice is also pro-botched-abortion. Just thought you should know.

Ahh, the old if we don't let them they will do it anyway and mess something up line of reasoning. I don't think we should negotiate with terrorists either.

So you're equating women who want to abort a fetus the same as terrorists? That's quaintly... retarded. Kudos!

Holy crap, you're about as sharp as a sack of wet mice. Idiot.


I'm pretty sure he just put you, or anyone who is anti-choice in their place.

If you want unsafe abortions likely to be botched by some pseudo-professional in an unconditioned storage unit somewhere,. then keep fighting the right to choose.

There's no way around it.
 
2012-06-26 03:23:27 PM  

GentDirkly: coeyagi: Biological Ali: Dansker: I'm pretty sure that most US Democrats are Christians too.

A lot of Democrats are pretty shiatty people too.

Anyone who identifies themselves as religious rather than spiritual and/or moral falls into column A (shiatty) in my book.

People who generalize that much in their judging of others tend to fall into my column A, but only after I spend some time trying to get to know them.


Good, that was the maximum irony response I was looking for from a person who is anti-choice.
 
2012-06-26 03:25:44 PM  

I alone am best: coeyagi: I alone am best: coeyagi: Anyone who is anti-choice is also pro-botched-abortion. Just thought you should know.

Ahh, the old if we don't let them they will do it anyway and mess something up line of reasoning. I don't think we should negotiate with terrorists either.

So you're equating women who want to abort a fetus the same as terrorists? That's quaintly... retarded. Kudos!

Holy crap, you're about as sharp as a sack of wet mice. Idiot.


Well, I am most certainly not wrong. Why would you mention terrorists? Oh, right, it's an analogy. Sure, you had no intention to equate women who were raped or have health issues and decide to get an abortion with terrorists.

fark off, you trolling clown.
 
2012-06-26 03:26:38 PM  

dahmers love zombie: Lionel Mandrake: A ten year-old pregnant with a rape/incest baby is A Gift From GOD!!

/sick f*cks

Sick farks is too charitable by a thousandfold.

You know what's an even better gift from God? Having a daughter or wife bleed out on the table because of a late-term placental abruption that was virtually certain due to pre-existing complications. Of course, an abortion would prevent such an event, but it's just such a loving gift from our Creator to watch our women die, isn't it?

What's even better is when it happens in the bathroom! God really, REALLY loves the sisters, brothers, sons and daughters of those women, and he shows his love by letting them watch and hold their loved one's hand as her heart slowly pumps all of her blood out of her vagina and onto the slick tile floor.

Another wonderful gift from God, and not a sign of mental health problems in the LEAST, is when a teen girl opens her brachial artery rather than admit to her family that she's pregnant with her own father's child. That's one of those gifts that's right thar in the Bible, it is.

You awful, reprehensible, disgusting anti-woman, anti-choice farktards. THIS is what you support. Roll around in it. Get absolutely filthy in it. Then show an ounce of redeeming human value and have the courage to at least admit it. You would rather see women die than see a fertilized egg fail to implant in the uterine wall. Admit it, filth. Admit it and I'll have an atom of respect for you.


This may be the single greatest post in Fark history.

/ I'd favorite you but the mobile interface blows...
 
2012-06-26 03:47:47 PM  

GentDirkly: KiplingKat872: GentDirkly: though you agree that doing so is very unlikely to kill her.

No I do not. She's TEN! Look at a ten year olds, do they look like they have bodies that can carry a baby to term and give birth safely?

If they do to you, you have even bigger issues than just being coldly self righteous.

Based on recent news reports, yes. Yes they do look like that. I acknowledge that young maternal age increases the likelihood of a complication which in turn may be likely to lead to maternal death. If those conditions are met, if carrying the baby to term seems to have a 50% chance of killing the mother, I'm OK with killing the baby early in response to that threat. But this will not be true most of the time, even for 10 year old mothers.


So you're ok with a 49.9% risk of death for a raped 10 year old?

You now have the honour of being the first person on Fark I've ever sworn at.

fark you, you sanctimonious piece of shiat.
 
2012-06-26 03:48:32 PM  

GentDirkly: demaL-demaL-yeH: Look, dumbass, a fetus is not a baby.
Wrap your mind around that fact.
If you think that is false, please present your ConceptionDay Certificate issued by the State of Kansas (assuming you were born there). Pictures from your and your friends' ConceptionDay parties with appropriately-captioned banners would be good supporting evidence.
Once you've absorbed the fact that a fetus is not a baby, think through the moral ramifications of involuntarily enslaving an existing, living, breathing person - putting her in mortal danger - for the sake of a literal parasite that is, at most, a potential person.

GentDirkly: It's true in a sense. Even the Torah talks about the penalty for causing a miscarriage to be less than the penalty for murder. However, I really think the heirarchy of offense goes like this:
Murder of someone outside the womb > causing death in the wombMISCARRIAGE > pretty much any non-life-threatening complaint the mother might have.


Causing a miscarriage is civil, not criminal. Got it? It is not an offense. A majority of pregnancies end in miscarriage.

And don't you dare tell a Jew what Torah says.
Not.
Yours.
You're wrong and you'll continue to be wrong because your assumptions, mental and moral framework, religious "education", agenda, and preconceptions are wrong, and quite often based on bad, fifth-hand mistranslations (some of which were deliberate) of a text I read in the original Hebrew every year.

My tradition never takes abortion lightly. My tradition also points out circumstances when abortion is required - and those arguments and their justifications largely predate your religion.
 
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