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(AlterNet)   Doctor has medical license revoked for refusing to force a 10-year-old girl to give birth. This happened in A) Saudi Arabia B) Sudan C) Kansas   (alternet.org) divider line 670
    More: Sick, medical licensure, Olds, Iowa, Dr. George Tiller, Sam Brownback, local board of health, late-term abortion, expert witnesses, mental disorders  
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9623 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Jun 2012 at 11:28 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-26 09:08:03 AM

orclover: Why isnt this on CNN ruining any chance the republicans have of getting elected?


I often wonder if Airplane! the movie would've had these lines today considering the fact that talking about abortion is a "big no no."

Female announcer: Oh really, Vernon? Why pretend, we both know perfectly well what this is about. You want me to have an abortion.
Male announcer: It's really the only sensible thing to do, if its done safely. Therapeutically there's no danger involved.
 
2012-06-26 09:08:28 AM
That little welfare queen got pregnant just so she could suckle on from the teat of big government. Make her get a job and support the kid on her own, no money for the lazy!
 
2012-06-26 09:13:36 AM

orclover: Why isnt this on CNN ruining any chance the republicans have of getting elected?


Because lately CNN has been pretty pro-Republican.
 
2012-06-26 09:20:27 AM

urban.derelict: CommieTaoist: Ed Finnerty: Have you ever bitten into a grape only to find a smaller grape inside?

You said grape twice.

MorrisBird: He likes grapes.



/that's Hedley!


Chewing gum on line, eh? I hope you brought enough for everybody?
 
2012-06-26 09:20:43 AM

serial_crusher: namegoeshere: serial_crusher: I wonder what the circumstances were that caused the 10 year old girl to seek a late term abortion instead of a regular one. Probably none of my business, but there had better be several adults in jail over that whole situation.

Well, for starters, a ten year old isn't going to recognize pregnancy symptoms, and may not cycle regularly enough to realize periods are missing. If she's a bit on the chubby side she might not show until well into the second trimester. And while an adult woman has no excuse, a ten year old rape/incest victim is 100% excused for being in denial of the pregnancy and wearing baggy things, blaming junk food for the weight gain, ect.

The pregnancy probably wasn't known to the parents until quite late.

Probably what happened. And I totally agree that she's 100% excused. No victim blaming here. I've always been ok with an exception for rape victims, and a pregnant 10 year old is about the victimiest victim that ever victimed.


And if this is how most social conservatives thought and argued I might be able to find common ground with them as a group of people. Unfortunately, after the partial birth ban that crew apparently lost their way. At least that's when I realized that nothing would be good enough for them.
 
2012-06-26 09:24:28 AM
Kansas is just turning rape into lemonaid.
 
2012-06-26 09:26:42 AM

Brandyelf: I like to think most people are more open-minded than to believe that everyone who falls into a certain religious category is a raving whack-job simply because of their religion.


I'd like to think that too, but the evidence hasn't made me optimistic.

I'll say the same thing I've said in the past in religion threads: I interact, work, and live with religious people all day every day without incident. Know why? Because religion doesn't come up or, at least, it doesn't come up in the context of someone telling me we should pass laws or make changes that affect me because of the speaker's religion. So the whole thing is a moot point for the vast majority of religious people I know. They don't try to force other people to be like them at the barrel of the government's proverbial and literal guns.

However, for those people who do bring it up and then persist with their dogma, we have a problem.

Yes, I'm a belligerent atheist, but only if the religious start the fight by trying to use their dogma to enforce changes that affect anybody but themselves.

And, no, you don't get to hide behind the whole "but it's just THEM, I'M perfectly normal!" thing. I don't see any real, fundamental difference between your religion and anyone else's. It's all magic and fairy tales. The only practical difference is whether you keep them to yourself or not, but, I'm sorry, anybody who believes in fairy tales is going to be less of a person in my eyes when it comes time to discuss things that require reason and logic. At least until they've proven my initial judgments wrong. That's just the way it is. If you start out believing in magic, you have a steeper hill to climb to convince me you can be rational and reasonable than someone who doesn't believe in magic. Like any other snap judgement, sometimes it's right, sometimes it's not. Religiosity, or lack thereof, doesn't define rationality by itself, but it is still an initial red flag.
 
2012-06-26 09:33:22 AM

BronyMedic: I'm starting to think that people who post in the politics tab have unhealthy sex lives.

It's like. Normal people get off on porn, and sex with the opposite sex, and sometimes the same sex. NTTIAWWT. It's quite enjoyable at times.

But, people who post in the politics tab I think spank it to spin. They jack it to partisian jackassery. They slap box the one eyed democrat with the republican right hand. They aggressively manhandle the willy with their agenda.

Seriously. I've never heard such argent echobox masturbation about something that boils down to poor clinical practice and documentation .

/Stating again: If you're going to work in a field that is rife with political controversy and religious stupidity, DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT go half-assed on your documentation.


I work in clinical trials QC, most of which is checking that documentation is complete and thorough. If someone has a specific agenda to find fault with you paperwork, they will eventually find a place where you didn't cross the T or dot the I. It's like driving your car for a half-mile - you will do something, or neglect to do something, that will justify a motivated cop to pull you over and charge you.
/so, No, she was not practicing criminally negligent medicine
 
2012-06-26 09:37:44 AM

cchris_39: "Hey doc, I'm pregnant and depressed" The medically indicated treatment is:

A) Seek professional counseling
B) Take some Prozac
C) Get an abortion.

This the Fark School of Medicine, so you already know the answer.


"Hey doc, I'm 10-years-old and am pregnant because I was raped. I'm scared."

The conservative Christian treatment of choice is:

a) have the baby
b) pray about it
c) shut the f*ck up about it
and/or
d) don't ask anyone for financial help because getting pregnant was your choice

Go f*ck yourself, dude. Seriously. If you died, the world would be a better place.
 
2012-06-26 09:38:22 AM

Goodfella: Kansas is just turning rape into lemonaid.


I would rather Kansas not try to make lemonade from rape. The pith smells nasty, and those seeds get everywhere.
 
2012-06-26 09:42:58 AM

Brandyelf: Dismiss and mock the fundies, absolutely, but when you lump all Christians under the same umbrella


The silence on this issue from religious groups is deafening. The fundies are the only ones talking; they're the ones defining Christianity to outside observers. If you don't want the fundies defining your religion, I suggest you take steps to prevent that from happening.
 
2012-06-26 09:43:50 AM
Where are the Dads?
 
2012-06-26 09:45:31 AM

Kome: cchris_39: "Hey doc, I'm pregnant and depressed" The medically indicated treatment is:

A) Seek professional counseling
B) Take some Prozac
C) Get an abortion.

This the Fark School of Medicine, so you already know the answer.

"Hey doc, I'm 10-years-old and am pregnant because I was raped. I'm scared."

The conservative Christian treatment of choice is:

a) have the baby
b) pray about it
c) shut the f*ck up about it
and/or
d) don't ask anyone for financial help because getting pregnant was your choice

Go f*ck yourself, dude. Seriously. If you died, the world would be a better place.


He knows.
 
2012-06-26 09:48:59 AM

liam76: Umm, fark you Kansas.


Might I add:

And carry the tragic result to term while you're at it.

GentDirkly: I oppose abortion in the case of rape, incest, or young maternal age, on religious grounds.


So how long have you been with the Army of God?
 
2012-06-26 09:49:16 AM
Also, someone should put Dr. Gold in the ground. What a sham of an expert witness.

I lived closed, but never in Kansas. What a backwards hick land full of inbred morons.
 
2012-06-26 09:51:06 AM

Brandyelf: Splinshints: And, yet, religious people wonder why so many of us just automatically dismiss and mock them anymore.

Dismiss and mock the fundies, absolutely, but when you lump all Christians under the same umbrella, it's kind of like those who call all Muslims "terrorists". I like to think most people are more open-minded than to believe that everyone who falls into a certain religious category is a raving whack-job simply because of their religion.

/Methodist
//Democrat, liberal, and pro-choice


I hear all the time from Christians that moderate Muslims who think the fundamentalists that execute all of these acts of terrorism must vehemently denounce terrorism as unequivocally wrong, and they must do it every day until we are satisfied. Does the same standard not hold for moderate Christians who do not think life begins at conception or who think that there are some circumstances that make abortion morally just?
 
2012-06-26 09:51:19 AM

namegoeshere: ox45tallboy: dr_blasto: 10-year-olds shouldn't be giving birth under any circumstances. Ever. No person of that age is equipped to deal with the trauma of pregnancy, let alone childbirth.

Let alone sex in the first place.

And, I know this is a separate issue, and probably very much overshadowed (and rightly so) by all the other things wrong with this story, but how the fark is a 10-year-old already past menarche? This isn't right, either.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the child probably doesn't have the best home life, considering she's been raped by her uncle, but what the hell are they feeding her that causes her to begin menstruating that early?

Ten is not abnormally early. I started at 10 a generation ago. These days, that's pretty common.


My daughter started at 10, and boy was she pissed! We took her to the doctor because it worried me a little, but she said everything is fine.

This pissed my daughter off even more, she wanted the doctor to make it stop. She wouldn't talk to me for three days.
 
2012-06-26 09:56:07 AM

serial_crusher: I wonder what the circumstances were that caused the 10 year old girl to seek a late term abortion instead of a regular one. Probably none of my business, but there had better be several adults in jail over that whole situation.


Because she was ten and it was her Uncle. She was probably terrified to talk to her parents about what happened.
 
2012-06-26 09:58:02 AM

qorkfiend: Brandyelf: Dismiss and mock the fundies, absolutely, but when you lump all Christians under the same umbrella

The silence on this issue from religious groups is deafening. The fundies are the only ones talking; they're the ones defining Christianity to outside observers. If you don't want the fundies defining your religion, I suggest you take steps to prevent that from happening.


Agreed. It seems the only time these other Christians really speak up is when, after that deafening silence in response to the horrific things done in the name of their religion, atheists chime in to condemn religion. And then it's all "Hey, we're not all like that!" Yea, well where the f*ck have you been then? Any Christian who steps up and condemns this kind of sh*t deserve mad respect. The rest of the quiet, enabling ones are part of the problem and are just as deserving of mockery and scorn as the ones actively doing this.
 
2012-06-26 09:59:18 AM

namegoeshere: ox45tallboy: dr_blasto: 10-year-olds shouldn't be giving birth under any circumstances. Ever. No person of that age is equipped to deal with the trauma of pregnancy, let alone childbirth.

Let alone sex in the first place.

And, I know this is a separate issue, and probably very much overshadowed (and rightly so) by all the other things wrong with this story, but how the fark is a 10-year-old already past menarche? This isn't right, either.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the child probably doesn't have the best home life, considering she's been raped by her uncle, but what the hell are they feeding her that causes her to begin menstruating that early?

Ten is not abnormally early. I started at 10 a generation ago. These days, that's pretty common.


Best data I could find, from the NIH, dated 2003. Data comes from a survey of 2510 girls aged 8.0 to 20.0 years:

RESULTS:Less than 10% of US girls start to menstruate before 11 years, and 90% of all US girls are menstruating by 13.75 years of age, with a median age of 12.43 years. This age at menarche is not significantly different (0.34 years earlier) than that reported for US girls in 1973. Age at menarche for non-Hispanic black girls was significantly earlier than that of white girls at 10%, 25%, and 50% of those who had attained menarche, whereas Mexican American girls were only significantly earlier than the white girls at 25%.

I guess it isn't unheard of, but keep in mind the article described the girl as 10 years old at the time of the late-term (6+months pregnant) abortion. This means she started no later than ten years and 5 months, which, any way you look at the data, is a bit outside of statistical norm.

I feel bad for spending any time on this, since it is the LEAST thing wrong with this story.
 
2012-06-26 10:00:21 AM

jcooli09: namegoeshere: ox45tallboy: dr_blasto: 10-year-olds shouldn't be giving birth under any circumstances. Ever. No person of that age is equipped to deal with the trauma of pregnancy, let alone childbirth.

Let alone sex in the first place.

And, I know this is a separate issue, and probably very much overshadowed (and rightly so) by all the other things wrong with this story, but how the fark is a 10-year-old already past menarche? This isn't right, either.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the child probably doesn't have the best home life, considering she's been raped by her uncle, but what the hell are they feeding her that causes her to begin menstruating that early?

Ten is not abnormally early. I started at 10 a generation ago. These days, that's pretty common.

My daughter started at 10, and boy was she pissed! We took her to the doctor because it worried me a little, but she said everything is fine.

This pissed my daughter off even more, she wanted the doctor to make it stop. She wouldn't talk to me for three days.


I recall reading some article about the pervasive use of certain chemicals that are now known as endocrine disruptors, especially some that mimicked estrogen which would induce early onset of puberty in females.
 
2012-06-26 10:03:02 AM

Aldon: cchris_39: "Hey doc, I'm pregnant and depressed" The medically indicated treatment is:

A) Seek professional counseling
B) Take some Prozac
C) Get an abortion.

This the Fark School of Medicine, so you already know the answer.


What the article says: I'm a 10 year old girl who is pregnant from the rape of my uncle, please help me.

What conservatives hear: I need an abortion because I feel kinda down today.


Did not read to the rape part. I humbly retract my earlier position on that particular case.
 
2012-06-26 10:05:32 AM

Splinshints: GentDirkly: I oppose abortion in the case of rape, incest, or young maternal age, on religious grounds. However, when the life of the mother is at stake (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life), I would question the religion of anyone opposed to a life-saving treatment for a mother that happens to end the life of the fetus.

And I question the basic human decency and logical capacities of anybody who holds your opinion. If you believe that a fetus is "human life" worthy of the protection of the state then it's human life and you don't get to pick and choose when it gets ended. Why should a "human life" that was started as a result of the choices of the parents be ended because it threatens one of the people who created it? In what other example of law do you get to create a threat to some other person's life because you choose to engage in activities that put that person at risk through no fault of their own?

This is exactly why I've come to automatically assume anybody who pulls the religion card in any debate is dull-witted. Your opinion is not only deeply offensive and an affront to the basic human rights of actual, established human beings, not to mention morally repugnant in that it places an enormous medical, psychological and financial burden on victims of violent crimes, it's not even logically consistent.

Not only is your opinion deeply rooted in moral evil, it doesn't even make basic sense. And, yet, religious people wonder why so many of us just automatically dismiss and mock them anymore.


You wrote, "In what other example of law..." I acknowledge that there are no other examples, but I hold that this doesn't prove anything for your case or for mine. One human growing inside of another is unique, and there won't be any valid comparison.

Then you wrote, "it places an enormous medical, psychological and financial burden on victims of violent crimes". Yes, there is an "added" medical burden. In your scenario where abortion is permitted, the woman may choose to deal with her pregnancy by having two or three medical visits over the span of a month, and in my scenario her only option is many more visits and a hospital stay over the course of nine months. But, sorry to say, in your scenario, a human being dies. In my scenario, death is highly unlikely. If you want to look at law in other situations, obviously killing a person (murder or manslaughter) is punished much more harshly than injuring them in a way that will require a few months of medical treatment. So the injury to fetus if we permit abortion is much more weighty than the injury to the mother if we do not- and this will only fail to be true in the special case of a complicated pregnancy where the mother's life is at risk. As far as the financial burden, this does not follow. Though I do not favor unrestricted access to abortion, it does not follow that I also oppose generous financial assistance to mothers who need it, or free access to pre-natal and neo-natal care.
 
2012-06-26 10:05:44 AM

Kome: qorkfiend: Brandyelf: Dismiss and mock the fundies, absolutely, but when you lump all Christians under the same umbrella

The silence on this issue from religious groups is deafening. The fundies are the only ones talking; they're the ones defining Christianity to outside observers. If you don't want the fundies defining your religion, I suggest you take steps to prevent that from happening.

Agreed. It seems the only time these other Christians really speak up is when, after that deafening silence in response to the horrific things done in the name of their religion, atheists chime in to condemn religion. And then it's all "Hey, we're not all like that!" Yea, well where the f*ck have you been then? Any Christian who steps up and condemns this kind of sh*t deserve mad respect. The rest of the quiet, enabling ones are part of the problem and are just as deserving of mockery and scorn as the ones actively doing this.


Yes, I find it interesting how often the only thing we ever hear from the "liberal", "moderate" Christians is how horrible atheists are for attacking, mocking, and ridiculing the fundies and lumping them in along with them. If they actually truly believe in the liberal values they claim to, they should be joining in on the attacks on fundies. If they care about what their religion is seen as standing for by outsiders, they should be attacking/policing the fundies before the atheists even get into the fight.

The fact that religious "moderates" usually only care about attacking people who criticize religion, rather than actually condemning the worst aspects of religion, says a lot. It says that they are more concerned preserving the privileged position in society that religion enjoys in society rather than righting social wrongs. I personally believe that all the anti-gay, anti-abortion, covered-up-child-rape, etc that religion perpetrates is worse than a few moderate Christians unfairly getting hit by the broad brush, but that's just me. Moderate Christians apparently think the latter is the far worse evil, judging by what they choose to pipe up about.
 
2012-06-26 10:05:55 AM

GentDirkly: I oppose abortion in the case of rape, incest, or young maternal age, on religious grounds.


Then you are mentally ill and/or just plain evil.
 
2012-06-26 10:06:22 AM
This kind of thing...I just have no words for my rage. How dare any christian who claim to believe in the teachings of Christ approve or remain silent in the face of such heinous abridgement of basic human rights? Of punishing a little girl for the rest of her life, if she even survived childbirth, for something she did not do to herself?
 
2012-06-26 10:06:31 AM

Serious Black: Oh, and let me just say that I am sorry for the actions of those residing in my state. I am ashamed to be a Kansan quite frequently now that it's becoming Brownbackistan.


This goes for me as well.
 
2012-06-26 10:06:45 AM

KiplingKat872: serial_crusher: I wonder what the circumstances were that caused the 10 year old girl to seek a late term abortion instead of a regular one. Probably none of my business, but there had better be several adults in jail over that whole situation.

Because she was ten and it was her Uncle. She was probably terrified to talk to her parents about what happened.


My ex-wife was sexually abused as a nine-year-old. She didn't tell her parents about the incidents until she was in college. I think this is a pretty common occurrence, especially if the rapist warns the victim that they better not tell or he'll kill her.
 
2012-06-26 10:07:09 AM

qorkfiend: Brandyelf: Dismiss and mock the fundies, absolutely, but when you lump all Christians under the same umbrella

The silence on this issue from religious groups is deafening. The fundies are the only ones talking; they're the ones defining Christianity to outside observers. If you don't want the fundies defining your religion, I suggest you take steps to prevent that from happening.


We do, actually. We focus on the teachings of Christ by helping the less fortunate, loving our neighbours, and keeping our hearts and minds open to anyone who wishes to join us. We do not shove our beliefs down the throats of anyone else, and we do not discriminate on the basis of race or sexual preference. We leave the judging of others to God.

I just think it's funny when people paint all Believers with the same brush. It reminds me of this guy:

"Islam may have a certain religious component to it," Godsey says, "But it also has a political component to it that is bent on domination through violence and armed jihad. Can't people see that?"

He believes all people of the Muslim faith are terrorists. Do you believe that? Do you ask people of the Muslim faith to defend themselves against that? Do you tell them "If you don't want the fundies defining your religion, I suggest you take steps to prevent that from happening." ? No, because the belief that all people that happen to be Muslim are terrorists is ridiculous, just as believing all Christians are close-minded, fundamentalist, anti-abortion, anti-women, anti-homosexual paranoid bigoted *ssholes is, just as believing that all atheists are close-minded and judgemental is. I don't expect anyone of the Muslim faith to explain their extremists to me, nor do I expect any atheist to explain their extremists to me. Why should I explain mine to you? I don't understand where they're coming from any better than you do, and frankly, they're filled with so much hate I don't want to. I read the Bible. I don't know what the heck these people read, but it's not the Bible I read.

I'm not trying to convert you (I don't work that way, I believe that true faith - even a lack of faith - is, and should be, a personal choice), all I'm trying to get you to see is that generalizing the behaviours of any one group, be it by colour, sexual preference, or religion, based on the actions of an extreme part of that group, is unfair.

I don't expect that you will, though.
 
2012-06-26 10:07:14 AM

GentDirkly: in my scenario her only option is many more visits and a hospital stay over the course of nine months.


Yeah, and who is paying for that?
 
2012-06-26 10:08:17 AM

cchris_39: Aldon: cchris_39: "Hey doc, I'm pregnant and depressed" The medically indicated treatment is:

A) Seek professional counseling
B) Take some Prozac
C) Get an abortion.

This the Fark School of Medicine, so you already know the answer.


What the article says: I'm a 10 year old girl who is pregnant from the rape of my uncle, please help me.

What conservatives hear: I need an abortion because I feel kinda down today.

Did not read to the rape part. I humbly retract my earlier position on that particular case.


You didn't read the "rape" part, which makes you retract your position, but the 10-year-old girl part - which you could only have missed if you didn't read the Fark headline, didn't read the headline of TFA, and didn't read past the second paragraph of TFA - isn't much of an issue for you? You'd still be cool with your original position if there was no rape in this case? Is that what we can infer from your post?
 
2012-06-26 10:09:31 AM

jcooli09: GentDirkly: I oppose abortion in the case of rape, incest, or young maternal age, on religious grounds.

Then you are mentally ill and/or just plain evil.


The child you have from a rapin' by your Uncle is a "Gift from God"...

Bleeding to death in some back alley make-shift abortion clinic is also, apparently, a "Gift from God".
 
2012-06-26 10:09:32 AM

Brandyelf: qorkfiend: Brandyelf: Dismiss and mock the fundies, absolutely, but when you lump all Christians under the same umbrella

The silence on this issue from religious groups is deafening. The fundies are the only ones talking; they're the ones defining Christianity to outside observers. If you don't want the fundies defining your religion, I suggest you take steps to prevent that from happening.

We do, actually. We focus on the teachings of Christ by helping the less fortunate, loving our neighbours, and keeping our hearts and minds open to anyone who wishes to join us. We do not shove our beliefs down the throats of anyone else, and we do not discriminate on the basis of race or sexual preference. We leave the judging of others to God.

I just think it's funny when people paint all Believers with the same brush. It reminds me of this guy:

"Islam may have a certain religious component to it," Godsey says, "But it also has a political component to it that is bent on domination through violence and armed jihad. Can't people see that?"

He believes all people of the Muslim faith are terrorists. Do you believe that? Do you ask people of the Muslim faith to defend themselves against that? Do you tell them "If you don't want the fundies defining your religion, I suggest you take steps to prevent that from happening." ? No, because the belief that all people that happen to be Muslim are terrorists is ridiculous, just as believing all Christians are close-minded, fundamentalist, anti-abortion, anti-women, anti-homosexual paranoid bigoted *ssholes is, just as believing that all atheists are close-minded and judgemental is. I don't expect anyone of the Muslim faith to explain their extremists to me, nor do I expect any atheist to explain their extremists to me. Why should I explain mine to you? I don't understand where they're coming from any better than you do, and frankly, they're filled with so much hate I don't want to. I read the Bible. I don't know what the h ...


Sorry, but that is the loudest group representing YOUR religion. If you don't want them to represent you, then get off your arses and shut them up or at least start making more noise than they do.
 
2012-06-26 10:10:35 AM

KiplingKat872: This kind of thing...I just have no words for my rage. How dare any christian who claim to believe in the teachings of Christ approve or remain silent in the face of such heinous abridgement of basic human rights? Of punishing a little girl for the rest of her life, if she even survived childbirth, for something she did not do to herself?


Because god has a plan for her. And you.

// and YOU get a plan, and YOU get a plan...
 
2012-06-26 10:11:01 AM

jcooli09: GentDirkly: I oppose abortion in the case of rape, incest, or young maternal age, on religious grounds.

Then you are mentally ill and/or just plain evil.


You're the one advocating baby-killing, not me.
It would be ethical to punish rape with the death penalty, sure. Not ideal (the ideal punishment is probably jail time or removal of testicles or both), but also not immoral. But the one receiving the punishment should be the rapist, not the baby.
 
2012-06-26 10:12:13 AM

Brandyelf: I'm not trying to convert you (I don't work that way, I believe that true faith - even a lack of faith - is, and should be, a personal choice), all I'm trying to get you to see is that generalizing the behaviours of any one group, be it by colour, sexual preference, or religion, based on the actions of an extreme part of that group, is unfair.

I don't expect that you will, though.


Your only contributions in this thread are (a) making a joke in response to a typo and (b) attacking people who are calling Christians assholes when they do things like this.

You haven't even said that what is going on in TFA as a result of fundamentalist Christian attitudes is wrong. Give us a real reason to not lump you in with that kind of ideology and maybe you'd have a point. Until then, your beliefs are fair f*cking game.
 
2012-06-26 10:12:20 AM

Biological Ali: Debeo Summa Credo: Lorelle: They'll force a 10-year-old girl to have a child against her will, then fight to deny BOTH children access to affordable healthcare. It's the American Way.

Careful. Someone might say "they'll fight to have a baby killed a month before birth but then complain about insufficient healthcare a day after birth.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally pro-abortion, but your statement doesn't help.

That rebuttal would make sense if make sense of those who supported abortion rights claimed themselves to be "pro life" or some such nonsense. Given that they don't, however, the equivalency breaks down and this "Both sides are bad" angle rings a tad hollow.


The point is although the right is hypocritical in wanting this baby to be born and then not being willing to pay for it's care afterward, it is also hypocritical to complain that a baby should get medical care when a month earlier you were okay terminating the pregnancy.

It's a rather abrupt about face regarding the concern for the well being of the baby. Just be careful is all I'm saying.
 
2012-06-26 10:12:48 AM

KiplingKat872: GentDirkly: in my scenario her only option is many more visits and a hospital stay over the course of nine months.

Yeah, and who is paying for that?


Not really relevant to the discussion. You're going to permit murder because the alternative is expensive. You're choosing money over blood? But since you asked I believe the state should be willing and able to step in and pay if private charity is failing to do so.
 
2012-06-26 10:13:07 AM

jcooli09: GentDirkly: I oppose abortion in the case of rape, incest, or young maternal age, on religious grounds.

Then you are mentally ill and/or just plain evil.


And willfully ignorant to boot! I like this quote;

"it does not follow that I also oppose generous financial assistance to mothers who need it, or free access to pre-natal and neo-natal care."

Notice how he doesn't deny he's against it, because he is. He just doesn't think that it automatically follows that if you're a bigot for forced birth on rape victims, that you're also a bigot on the welfare of those people, which you are, by definition of his earlier position.

You think rape victims should have to have unwanted children, IE you don't care about their welbeing, therefore it follows you would not care about providing for them through your tax dollars. It's only inconsistent when you hate hearing the truth about your own shortcomings...
 
2012-06-26 10:13:09 AM
Following the money suggests that the for-profit prison industry is behind the current war on women. Poor babies == long-term growth potential. Yay unregulated capitalism!
 
2012-06-26 10:13:10 AM

cchris_39: Aldon: cchris_39: "Hey doc, I'm pregnant and depressed" The medically indicated treatment is:

A) Seek professional counseling
B) Take some Prozac
C) Get an abortion.

This the Fark School of Medicine, so you already know the answer.


What the article says: I'm a 10 year old girl who is pregnant from the rape of my uncle, please help me.

What conservatives hear: I need an abortion because I feel kinda down today.

Did not read to the rape part. I humbly retract my earlier position on that particular case.


The headline clearly says 10 years old and that equals rape. Even if you didn't read the article there is no way you could have misunderstood that.
 
2012-06-26 10:14:02 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: The point is although the right is hypocritical in wanting this baby to be born and then not being willing to pay for it's care afterward, it is also hypocritical to complain that a baby should get medical care when a month earlier you were okay terminating the pregnancy.

It's a rather abrupt about face regarding the concern for the well being of the baby. Just be careful is all I'm saying.


It's not a baby before it's born. It's a fetus. They are two different things. That's a perfectly consistent ethical position.
 
2012-06-26 10:14:47 AM

GentDirkly: jcooli09: GentDirkly: I oppose abortion in the case of rape, incest, or young maternal age, on religious grounds.

Then you are mentally ill and/or just plain evil.

You're the one advocating baby-killing, not me.
It would be ethical to punish rape with the death penalty, sure. Not ideal (the ideal punishment is probably jail time or removal of testicles or both), but also not immoral. But the one receiving the punishment should be the rapist, not the baby.


What about the pregnant girl in this tale? Should she be punished by being forced to carry the pregnancy to term because she had the sheer, unadulterated audacity to be raped by her uncle?
 
2012-06-26 10:15:35 AM

Brandyelf: qorkfiend: Brandyelf: Dismiss and mock the fundies, absolutely, but when you lump all Christians under the same umbrella

The silence on this issue from religious groups is deafening. The fundies are the only ones talking; they're the ones defining Christianity to outside observers. If you don't want the fundies defining your religion, I suggest you take steps to prevent that from happening.

We do, actually. We focus on the teachings of Christ by helping the less fortunate, loving our neighbours, and keeping our hearts and minds open to anyone who wishes to join us. We do not shove our beliefs down the throats of anyone else, and we do not discriminate on the basis of race or sexual preference. We leave the judging of others to God.

I just think it's funny when people paint all Believers with the same brush. It reminds me of this guy:

"Islam may have a certain religious component to it," Godsey says, "But it also has a political component to it that is bent on domination through violence and armed jihad. Can't people see that?"

He believes all people of the Muslim faith are terrorists. Do you believe that? Do you ask people of the Muslim faith to defend themselves against that? Do you tell them "If you don't want the fundies defining your religion, I suggest you take steps to prevent that from happening." ? No, because the belief that all people that happen to be Muslim are terrorists is ridiculous, just as believing all Christians are close-minded, fundamentalist, anti-abortion, anti-women, anti-homosexual paranoid bigoted *ssholes is, just as believing that all atheists are close-minded and judgemental is. I don't expect anyone of the Muslim faith to explain their extremists to me, nor do I expect any atheist to explain their extremists to me. Why should I explain mine to you? I don't understand where they're coming from any better than you do, and frankly, they're filled with so much hate I don't want to. I read the Bible. I don't know what the h ...


How does any of that help you shout down the fundies who have become the public representatives Christianity in America? These are people who hold beliefs that many other people find deeply offensive, and are trying to enact their religious agenda into civil law, all under the banner of "Christianity". When other Christians who don't hold these beliefs or agree with this agenda say nothing and continue about their lives as if nothing untoward is happening, the implication is that you either agree, or don't care. If you don't care, fine, but don't attack those of us who are taking the place you should be occupying and actively pushing back against the fundamentalists.
 
2012-06-26 10:16:29 AM
GentDirkly:

I mean serious, do you now how much pre-natal care and child birth costs? Both my sister and her husband both have very well paying jobs in aerospace, fully insured, and they said it would take them a year to pay off the hospital bills for their first child's birth.

So who is going to pick up that bill? Taxpayers? For the 1.2 million pregnancies a year that are terminated?

You guys won't even approve Obamacare.
 
2012-06-26 10:16:30 AM

keylock71: jcooli09: GentDirkly: I oppose abortion in the case of rape, incest, or young maternal age, on religious grounds.

Then you are mentally ill and/or just plain evil.

The child you have from a rapin' by your Uncle is a "Gift from God"...

Bleeding to death in some back alley make-shift abortion clinic is also, apparently, a "Gift from God".


[blink] No, it is a crime and the back alley abortion provider is guilty of two counts of manslaughter. Next question.
 
2012-06-26 10:17:18 AM

GentDirkly: jcooli09: GentDirkly: I oppose abortion in the case of rape, incest, or young maternal age, on religious grounds.

Then you are mentally ill and/or just plain evil.

You're the one advocating baby-killing, not me.
It would be ethical to punish rape with the death penalty, sure. Not ideal (the ideal punishment is probably jail time or removal of testicles or both), but also not immoral. But the one receiving the punishment should be the rapist, not the baby.


It's a good thing that's not your choice, or you might have an opinion that mattered. You are sub human scum. Nice framing the argument as "killing a baby." Because that's what it al comes down to. To idiots, life starts at conception. To rational people, birth, when the child is no longer dependent upon the mother for life.

I could list out infinite inconsistencies in logic this brings up from fundamentalists, but they've been posted over and over and it never changes the mind of someone who is already fixated in a magical, irrational belief.
 
2012-06-26 10:17:21 AM

stlbluez: BronyMedic: snowjack: Obviously this doctor was negligent and deserves to be stripped of her livelihood, and every interaction with the ten year olds should have been videotaped and posted on YouTube. The article you found makes this crystal clear. Thanks for your insightful contribution to the discussion.

Hey, look. Let's play a game. It's called "Let's pretend to attribute something that was NEVER SAID by that person, and then argue from that strawman like a complete idiot. Because that's what you look like when you say things like this: a complete idiot.

To put it another way: YOU'RE NOT HELPING YOUR CAUSE.

Creating strawman arguments about posting youtube videos of protected patient information, which would be a federal crime in the first place (See HIPAA's statutes on use of PHI for political or financhial gain.) only makes you look dishonest. You're no better than the anti-abortion protestors with their fake fetuses and dithering stupidity.

The woman was crap in her documentation. She was in a position and performing high risk care where she should KNOW that crap documentation is not acceptable. That crap documentation made her look incompetent, and like she shirked her clinical duties. It doesn't matter if you claim she was the most in depth and astute provider this side of Dr. House. Her documentation states differently. RFTA I linked: She couldn't even be bothered to provide a written summary to Dr. Tiller regarding her findings. It was a farking computer print out of yes or no questions.

Dude... don't bother.
You're not getting it. This entire thread has become an anti-religions anti-prolife frothy circle jerk. People are comparing Kansas to Saudi Arabia... actually advocating that simply killing all religions folks is a viable solution to the countrys' woes... claiming religion is actually the root of all evils, etc..
and the only one being attacked is you :)
its telling.. its amusing.. its irony you can taste as people talk about 'intolerance'... ...


Tolerance only goes so far. You can only be tolerant of people who practice their religion in such a way as not to cause pain and suffering for other people.

This is the "HELP HELP WE'RE BEING OPPRESSED" line all over again.
 
2012-06-26 10:18:59 AM

KiplingKat872: Sorry, but that is the loudest group representing YOUR religion. If you don't want them to represent you, then get off your arses and shut them up or at least start making more noise than they do.


They're human beings. They're Americans. They represent you, too, if you're going to go with vast generalizations. You should get off your arse and shut them up or at least start making more noise than they do, lest people in more refined countries begin to believe all Americans are like them. Screaming "All Christians are bad!!!" is no more helpful.

They do not belong to my religion, I'm a United Methodist. They happen to spell the name of their God the same as I do, that's all. The only ones that seem to be lumping us under the same umbrella are the atheists I hear yelling.

I swear, Fark atheists can be as close-minded as some Republicans I talk to.
 
2012-06-26 10:19:02 AM

GentDirkly: jcooli09: GentDirkly: I oppose abortion in the case of rape, incest, or young maternal age, on religious grounds.

Then you are mentally ill and/or just plain evil.

You're the one advocating baby-killing, not me.
It would be ethical to punish rape with the death penalty, sure. Not ideal (the ideal punishment is probably jail time or removal of testicles or both), but also not immoral. But the one receiving the punishment should be the rapist, not the baby.


And the 10-year-old? Her pain, suffering, risk of serious injury or death - and that's only until the fetus makes its way into God's Loving World - means nothing? What if she wants to keep the kid? Recall that this is a 10-year-old, someone who isn't legally allowed to medically consent to donating blood, and you're asking her to make a serious medical/life-altering choice, all because someone else took advantage of her. The state shouldn't allow a child to be responsible for a child of her own, it's basically asking CPS to live outside her house (or creating a case for them in <5 years).

There is no "good" solution. Everyone will suffer whether you do nothing or nuke it from orbit. For me, the choice that minimizes that damage as much as possible is the one where she doesn't have a kid at the end.

// and, preferably, the uncle gets tased in the nuts until Ragnarok, but that's less likely
 
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