If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Digital Trends)   Surely by now, everyone realizes that the largest group of video gamers are adults. Why then, is there so little sex in video games? Custer's Revenge notwithstanding   (digitaltrends.com) divider line 165
    More: Interesting, tomb raider, informed consents, Mass Effect, Lara Croft, Tom and Jerry  
•       •       •

3306 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Jun 2012 at 12:23 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



165 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all
 
2012-06-25 05:00:27 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: //but since the hatred of them is palpable in some quarters, i can only assume it's either actual misogyny ("what are these sluts doing at *our* event") or white-knighting ("if I object loudly to these women being paid to be models, I can get women who also dislike them to like me!"


If those are the only two options you can think of, you need to go back to the drawing board. How about disgust over pandering to half of the game's audience while alienating the other half?
But it's natural that it didn't occur to you, since it's clear you don't think that other half exists:
///het men like boobs near them any time, it's nature
 
2012-06-25 05:04:29 PM
The most adult game I've played in recent memory

assets.nydailynews.com

It started off slow, really slow. But once it picked up, holy shiat.

// This game is just plain farked up.

// FBI guy died, I rescued the boy, killer got away.

// Haven't done a second playthrough yet, but watched a video of the 'worst possible' ending, and damn.
 
2012-06-25 05:14:31 PM

rickycal78: Yes folks, there's loads of games that are about nothing but sex, but dear god do they suck.


Almost all of them do. Found a few diamonds in the rough that were well worth it.
 
2012-06-25 05:17:14 PM

ZoSo_the_Crowe: [i.imgur.com image 639x396]

I miss dithered, early 90's graphics.

It makes me think of a time when women had thick, full, unshaven bush. Playing games from that era make me feel like I'm back in those days where any woman's pantsu I could pull down, I could stick my face into a wonderful, thick, fragrant dark forest.


It loses it's charm when there is no CRT.
 
2012-06-25 05:17:15 PM

Millennium: The thing is, they're not, because they attract the sorts of people I don't want to play with: the ones ruin it for everyone else by driving away the interesting people.


Ah, so you're one of the people who wants to determine who is and who is not a "gamer".

You don't know it, but you're actually the problem with gaming today.
 
2012-06-25 05:19:06 PM

Theaetetus: If those are the only two options you can think of, you need to go back to the drawing board. How about disgust over pandering to half of the game's audience while alienating the other half?
But it's natural that it didn't occur to you, since it's clear you don't think that other half exists:
///het men like boobs near them any time, it's nature


Because I hear het men complaining about booth babes much, much, much more often than I hear women complain about them. Even on the Internet.

And if it's that much more prevalent on the Internet, that's sayin' something.

/but hey, I don't hate on models for doin' their jobs, so I've got one up on these folks, too
 
2012-06-25 05:20:34 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Millennium: The thing is, they're not, because they attract the sorts of people I don't want to play with: the ones ruin it for everyone else by driving away the interesting people.

Ah, so you're one of the people who wants to determine who is and who is not a "gamer".


I only see an attempt to classify "interesting", which is to say "not vapid". It's rather vague, but I agree.

Call me elitist but any market that is easily manipulated by booth babes is probably packed with people I'd rather not have making choices on my behalf. Case in point, there are two flavors of Resident Evil fans -- those who liked 1-4, and those who like what they're doing with it now.
 
2012-06-25 05:26:33 PM

dragonchild: I only see an attempt to classify "interesting", which is to say "not vapid". It's rather vague, but I agree.

Call me elitist but any market that is easily manipulated by booth babes is probably packed with people I'd rather not have making choices on my behalf. Case in point, there are two flavors of Resident Evil fans -- those who liked 1-4, and those who like what they're doing with it now.


It was a very clear implication that only the people whom the poster considers interesting are "proper" gamers.

Gamers are allowed to be different than what the stereotype is, gamers are allowed to like different things and gamers are allowed to have different personalities.

It's like that silly comic going around with the conventionally attractive girl nibbling on the controller and the "Marigold"-like character at the bottom, declaring that one is a gamer and one is a "slut with a controller".

The folks white-knighting women (and women gamers) are actually harming them, and they don't even realize it.
 
2012-06-25 05:32:12 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Theaetetus: If those are the only two options you can think of, you need to go back to the drawing board. How about disgust over pandering to half of the game's audience while alienating the other half?
But it's natural that it didn't occur to you, since it's clear you don't think that other half exists:
///het men like boobs near them any time, it's nature

Because I hear het men complaining about booth babes much, much, much more often than I hear women complain about them. Even on the Internet.


Confirmation bias is a terrible thing, huh?

/but hey, I don't hate on models for doin' their jobs, so I've got one up on these folks, too

I'm not sure how you got that those folks "hate" the models. Rather, it's the game company that draws ire, not the models. Maybe that's why you've missed all the complaints?
 
2012-06-25 05:33:51 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: The folks white-knighting women (and women gamers) are actually harming them, and they don't even realize it.


i235.photobucket.com
 
2012-06-25 05:35:21 PM

lordargent: The most adult game I've played in recent memory

[assets.nydailynews.com image 485x364]

It started off slow, really slow. But once it picked up, holy shiat.

// This game is just plain farked up.

// FBI guy died, I rescued the boy, killer got away.

// Haven't done a second playthrough yet, but watched a video of the 'worst possible' ending, and damn.


A good example on how maybe we should get the basics like plot done right in video games before we start working on smaller details.
 
2012-06-25 05:40:43 PM

Theaetetus: I'm not sure how you got that those folks "hate" the models. Rather, it's the game company that draws ire, not the models. Maybe that's why you've missed all the complaints?


Any time some poster refers to the booth babe as "some bimbo" or "some slut" who "doesn't know jack" about the game at the booth, that's hating the model.

Theaetetus: Confirmation bias is a terrible thing, huh?


I could be wrong and everyone simply wanted a sterile, rated-G environment that is "nothing but the facts" (which sounds dreadfully boring to me), but that flies in the face of all that I've experienced thus far. White knighting and calling models names have been the order of the day for a long time. I refer you to the above-mentioned, frequently liked by "real gamers", "slut with a controller" comic.

Though I've watched you posting for a long time, so I know you're never going to even admit that I might be on to something.
 
2012-06-25 05:42:08 PM

Lumbar Puncture: lordargent: The most adult game I've played in recent memory

[assets.nydailynews.com image 485x364]

It started off slow, really slow. But once it picked up, holy shiat.

// This game is just plain farked up.

// FBI guy died, I rescued the boy, killer got away.

// Haven't done a second playthrough yet, but watched a video of the 'worst possible' ending, and damn.

A good example on how maybe we should get the basics like plot done right in video games before we start working on smaller details.


There's a lot of folks who really didn't like that game. Such things are very subjective.
 
2012-06-25 05:44:56 PM

Theaetetus: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: //but since the hatred of them is palpable in some quarters, i can only assume it's either actual misogyny ("what are these sluts doing at *our* event") or white-knighting ("if I object loudly to these women being paid to be models, I can get women who also dislike them to like me!"

If those are the only two options you can think of, you need to go back to the drawing board. How about disgust over pandering to half of the game's audience while alienating the other half?
But it's natural that it didn't occur to you, since it's clear you don't think that other half exists:
///het men like boobs near them any time, it's nature


You're right. They should get some boothbros just to make sure all their bases are covered. If some of my friends are any indication, an attractive man in costume at the Assassin's Creed booth would lead to a significant decrease in people complaining about paid models and a significant uptick in fangirl-like typing.

/Well until it all went full circle
//Sure he's hot, but I bet he doesn't even play video games!
 
2012-06-25 05:49:57 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Theaetetus: I'm not sure how you got that those folks "hate" the models. Rather, it's the game company that draws ire, not the models. Maybe that's why you've missed all the complaints?

Any time some poster refers to the booth babe as "some bimbo" or "some slut" who "doesn't know jack" about the game at the booth, that's hating the model.


Yes, and there's a whole world of complaints out there that never once use the terms "bimbo" or "slut", but rather object to the game company pandering to stereotypical heterosexual male players while alienating the remainder of the market.
You apparently have missed all of those, which is odd considering that you were replying to one.

Theaetetus: Confirmation bias is a terrible thing, huh?

I could be wrong and everyone simply wanted a sterile, rated-G environment that is "nothing but the facts" (which sounds dreadfully boring to me), but that flies in the face of all that I've experienced thus far. White knighting and calling models names have been the order of the day for a long time. I refer you to the above-mentioned, frequently liked by "real gamers", "slut with a controller" comic.


You're the one who mentioned that comic, so I'm not sure how that's evidence that other people do it. Plus, I still have no idea what comic you're referring to.

Though I've watched you posting for a long time, so I know you're never going to even admit that I might be on to something.

Ah, the good old pre-emptive troll. A classic of internet arguments. Unfortunately, it never actually works, but that hasn't stopped people from using it.
 
2012-06-25 05:50:04 PM

ProfessorOhki: You're right. They should get some boothbros just to make sure all their bases are covered. If some of my friends are any indication, an attractive man in costume at the Assassin's Creed booth would lead to a significant decrease in people complaining about paid models and a significant uptick in fangirl-like typing.

/Well until it all went full circle
//Sure he's hot, but I bet he doesn't even play video games!


I'd be okay with this. Equal opportunity cheesecake for all.
 
2012-06-25 05:53:05 PM

ProfessorOhki: You're right. They should get some boothbros just to make sure all their bases are covered. If some of my friends are any indication, an attractive man in costume at the Assassin's Creed booth would lead to a significant decrease in people complaining about paid models and a significant uptick in fangirl-like typing.


The Aliens: Colonial Marines both at PAX prime last year had a few of those. They were guys who had made their own props/costumes and sega was paying them to man the booth. They were an absolute riot and a lot of fun to talk to. Bioware had a female shepard cosplayer for the mass effect series that was also at the booth, and again, an absolute class act.

On the flip side, you had a few both models that were not fans on the series, not fans of the fans, and basically treating it as a paid gig and nothing more. They often felt very distant and treated the fans like crap. the girl who was dressed as Jill Valentine for the Resident Evil 3ds game booth was like that.
 
2012-06-25 05:55:34 PM

Theaetetus: Yes, and there's a whole world of complaints out there that never once use the terms "bimbo" or "slut", but rather object to the game company pandering to stereotypical heterosexual male players while alienating the remainder of the market.
You apparently have missed all of those, which is odd considering that you were replying to one.


A thin veneer laid over misogyny and puritanical sexual repression in order to make it palatable to activists (doubling as white knighting).

Are there folks who TRULY TRULY believe that booth babes are the result of companies that are unaware that women play video games? Absolutely. They're wrong, though. They want to battle the alienation of women in gaming? Concentrate on the folks who are obsessed with declaring who is and is not a "gamer" on the basis of what they play and what their non-gamer interests are. Felicia Day can tell you all about it, since she's been a popular target lately for folks of that mindset.

Theaetetus: You're the one who mentioned that comic, so I'm not sure how that's evidence that other people do it. Plus, I still have no idea what comic you're referring to.


I'm not sure that you're really in a position to be discussing this topic if you aren't aware of the current trendy expressions of "supporting real women gamers" in the community.

Theaetetus: Ah, the good old pre-emptive troll. A classic of internet arguments. Unfortunately, it never actually works, but that hasn't stopped people from using it.


The best thing is that you didn't say I was wrong.
 
2012-06-25 05:57:26 PM

Antimatter: On the flip side, you had a few both models that were not fans on the series, not fans of the fans, and basically treating it as a paid gig and nothing more. They often felt very distant and treated the fans like crap. the girl who was dressed as Jill Valentine for the Resident Evil 3ds game booth was like that.


Though it should be noted, of course, that you can not be a fan of the series and still be a good model representative for your employer. Having a bad attitude is doing a bad job, regardless of whether or not you're well versed in the property you're representing.
 
2012-06-25 05:58:09 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: ProfessorOhki: You're right. They should get some boothbros just to make sure all their bases are covered. If some of my friends are any indication, an attractive man in costume at the Assassin's Creed booth would lead to a significant decrease in people complaining about paid models and a significant uptick in fangirl-like typing.

/Well until it all went full circle
//Sure he's hot, but I bet he doesn't even play video games!

I'd be okay with this. Equal opportunity cheesecake for all.


Besides, you can have lots of fun using models that aren't for cheesecake. I mean, let's take Halo. Which is more entertaining, "photo next to hot Cotana" or "attach this glowing plasma grenade to your back and pose running from Mater Chief." Passive displays are the antithesis of an interactive medium.
 
2012-06-25 05:58:24 PM
Because anytime someone puts a sexual situation in a video game, the repressed population freaks out?
 
2012-06-25 06:03:55 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: They should get some boothbros just to make sure all their bases are covered. . .

I'd be okay with this. Equal opportunity cheesecake for all.


Not me. I don't consider equal opportunity obtained by a race to the bottom to be progress.

I married a gamer, and my wife and I have the same lament -- game quality is getting spotty. My wife is even OK with male-oriented fanservice, which makes for some fun times. Neither of us have problems with the booth babes, per se. We have issues with crappy business models in gaming, one of which is to market shovelware using paid models. The models are really just the symptom. Them being there or not doesn't affect the quality of the product, but the marketing strategy sure is obvious.

Don't read too much into this, like some deep meta-psychological interpretation of modern American chauvanism. Sure, some guys are assholes but I can't speak for them. However, regardless of who hires the booth babes for what purpose or whether they're "real" gamers or how they're treated, it's an open secret that a lot of developers are trying to gloss over some rather shoddy products by hiring booth babes. It's called marketing, and I don't like it whether they're peddling video games or watered-down beer. Making half the models male doesn't fix the damned problem!
 
2012-06-25 06:09:51 PM

ProfessorOhki: Besides, you can have lots of fun using models that aren't for cheesecake. I mean, let's take Halo. Which is more entertaining, "photo next to hot Cotana" or "attach this glowing plasma grenade to your back and pose running from Mater Chief." Passive displays are the antithesis of an interactive medium.


Doesn't need to be either/or. In some cases, a booth might choose to have booth babes (in cosplay or not) to catch some customer's eye and then direct them if they have questions to a more product-versed employee. Or you can have them eyecatch and have them versed in the other interactive activities at the booth which can then lead to more product-based interaction.

Furthermore, marketing folks know what crowd they're going for. Are there women who are super into the GoW series? You bet. Does the market research for that game indicate that the split for the gender population even approaches 50/50 with women on the lower side? I'm betting that's a big no. Same with RE. If you decide that no matter what you do, you're not going to have a significant female audience for a particular game based on your market research, then you're going to focus your money on the folks that your numbers show is going to be your target market, you direct your marketing dollars at that demographic.

And, as much as some men complain about booth babes, gamers are well known for complaining about a company and their games, and then buying them anyway.
 
2012-06-25 06:11:43 PM

BurnShrike: Not once have I ever been playing a video game and thought "gee, I wish there was some kinky sex right here".


The only time I've thought the characters in a (non sex-specific) video game should have sex was in Planescape: Torment, when Annah and The Nameless One fell in love. There was a foreplay scene, but it just cut off abruptly, which didn't feel right.
 
2012-06-25 06:14:35 PM

dragonchild: I married a gamer, and my wife and I have the same lament -- game quality is getting spotty. My wife is even OK with male-oriented fanservice, which makes for some fun times. Neither of us have problems with the booth babes, per se. We have issues with crappy business models in gaming, one of which is to market shovelware using paid models. The models are really just the symptom. Them being there or not doesn't affect the quality of the product, but the marketing strategy sure is obvious.


This has been a perennial problem in gaming since the beginning of the 8-bit console era, though. It's not new. Hell, the market collapsed in the 80s due to it. It's been made even more easy to perpetrate with things like XBLA.

Are you sure it's not that as you've gotten older you've become more particular about your gaming quality standards? I know it's certainly the case with me. I pick by games very judiciously compared with the previous generations, but other gamers do not, and so I can only conclude that I've become much more picky.
 
2012-06-25 06:14:59 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: A thin veneer laid over misogyny and puritanical sexual repression in order to make it palatable to activists (doubling as white knighting).


I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Complaints about pandering that people find offensive and insulting are really just misogyny and sexual repression, somehow combined with white knighting? So, if a woman complains that she feels like she's not invited to the booth when a company uses booth babes, she's really just a person who hates women, is trying to get women to sleep with her, and is sexually repressed to boot?
I think that in your rush to throw out various buzzwords, you forgot that they actually had meanings.

Are there folks who TRULY TRULY believe that booth babes are the result of companies that are unaware that women play video games?

Don't forget "feel that women are such a small portion of their audience that they don't care".

Absolutely. They're wrong, though.

So you have evidence of this? Or is it just an unsupported conclusion?

They want to battle the alienation of women in gaming? Concentrate on the folks who are obsessed with declaring who is and is not a "gamer" on the basis of what they play and what their non-gamer interests are.

... because women only play certain types of games? It sounds like you're parroting the same arguments of the game developers: "women don't play these games, so therefore it doesn't matter if we ignore or insult them when we pander to our audience."

Also, it's blatant concern trolling to do the "women are upset about problem X? Well, they really should focus on problem Y."

Theaetetus: You're the one who mentioned that comic, so I'm not sure how that's evidence that other people do it. Plus, I still have no idea what comic you're referring to.

I'm not sure that you're really in a position to be discussing this topic if you aren't aware of the current trendy expressions of "supporting real women gamers" in the community.


Let me guess... You've forgotten where or when you saw the alleged comic and have no way of linking to it now, so instead you're trying to go on sheer bluster.
I'm not sure you're really in a position to be discussing this topic if you can't name the source of such comic. Clearly, you're out of the loop of popular game culture.

Theaetetus: Ah, the good old pre-emptive troll. A classic of internet arguments. Unfortunately, it never actually works, but that hasn't stopped people from using it.

The best thing is that you didn't say I was wrong.


Oh. You're wrong. And you're not on to anything, as evidenced by your above circular or unsupported arguments. Happy that I've addressed it? I'm sure you are, but you won't admit it, since you're so invested in this topic that you can't admit that you're wrong, even when you're citing vague references like "I saw this comic and it totally said this and I forget where it was or how to find it," or making arguments like "women totally hate women and want to sleep with women and hate sex".
 
2012-06-25 06:17:13 PM
i612.photobucket.com

The sound is what really makes it.
 
2012-06-25 06:17:23 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: If you decide that no matter what you do, you're not going to have a significant female audience for a particular game based on your market research, then you're going to focus your money on the folks that your numbers show is going to be your target market, you direct your marketing dollars at that demographic.


As I said:

Theaetetus: "Are there folks who TRULY TRULY believe that booth babes are the result of companies that are unaware that women play video games?"

Don't forget "feel that women are such a small portion of their audience that they don't care".


In one post, you're admitting that video game companies ignore the female demographic, while in another, you're saying that it doesn't happen.
 
2012-06-25 06:24:41 PM
I think some of our hang ups over sexuality, social stigma, taboos, etc. in our interactive media (Is a medium really "non-interactive" if you're actively watching, reacting to visual stimuli?) is instead of passively observing, we're "involved" somehow. Taking for example the new Lara Croft game and the ensuing controversy: As far as the lizard brain is concerned, the bad men attacking Lara are coming after US next. We need to feed our lizard brain a grasshopper and stop freaking the fark out over an issue of character development in a video game.

This is not to say I'm comfortable with the idea of watching the main character in an action/adventure game become a sexual assault victim. If this appeared in my game as non-interactive cutscene it becomes a depressing reminder that there are awful people in the world, capable of vile acts. If the scene is interactive and I botch it somehow (Which wouldn't ever happen because I've never failed an in-game objective.), I've just failed to prevent the rape and probable slaying of a well known, likable character who, oh by the way, turns out to be a 16 year old Lara Croft. Oooooooooh PLOT TWIST!! I don't find either possibility particularly entertaining, but neither am I going to take part in a product boycott over this.

Also the headline is a little misleading. The article had to do with the double standard of mature content in video games versus that of non-interactive media. Sex isn't the only mature subject matter our uptight, close-minded, prudish society forbids in our games but tolerates in other media.
 
2012-06-25 06:27:39 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: And, as much as some men complain about booth babes, gamers are well known for complaining about a company and their games, and then buying them anyway.


True. I figure it irks people, but isn't a total deal breaker.

i50.tinypic.com
But, then again, every once in a great while, the invisible hand presents a monolithic middle finger :)
 
2012-06-25 06:28:49 PM

Theaetetus: I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Complaints about pandering that people find offensive and insulting are really just misogyny and sexual repression, somehow combined with white knighting? So, if a woman complains that she feels like she's not invited to the booth when a company uses booth babes, she's really just a person who hates women, is trying to get women to sleep with her, and is sexually repressed to boot?
I think that in your rush to throw out various buzzwords, you forgot that they actually had meanings.


If a woman doesn't feel "invited" to a booth because there are booth babes there, the woman does indeed have issues. The only way they're "not invited" is if there's a big sign saying "men only" or gets shooed out.

This argument is always interesting, though, because 1) it concludes that women are offended or alienated by consistent things based on their gender and 2) that there's some magical, non-sterilized, non-vanilla way to ensure that everyone is always included in everything. Sure, I suppose you could do that, but then E3 would look like the Industrial Shinglemaker of America Museum.

Theaetetus: Don't forget "feel that women are such a small portion of their audience that they don't care".


For individual titles, this may very well be true.

Theaetetus: So you have evidence of this? Or is it just an unsupported conclusion?


To be right, companies would have to not want more money. Companies want more money.

Theaetetus: ... because women only play certain types of games? It sounds like you're parroting the same arguments of the game developers: "women don't play these games, so therefore it doesn't matter if we ignore or insult them when we pander to our audience."


You're so turned around you don't even know that you're agreeing with me, here. The point being that being a gamer is self-assigned, self-claimed and there's a whole lot of people trying to say that you're only a gamer (and, in particular, a woman gamer) if you conform to some standard of behavior. If you're unaware of this, you need to spend some more time outside your preferred echo chamber.

Theaetetus: Also, it's blatant concern trolling to do the "women are upset about problem X? Well, they really should focus on problem Y."


Interestingly, it's mostly men who are making these statements. How do I know? The predominance of posts in that vein that start with "as a male gamer".

Theaetetus: Let me guess... You've forgotten where or when you saw the alleged comic and have no way of linking to it now, so instead you're trying to go on sheer bluster.
I'm not sure you're really in a position to be discussing this topic if you can't name the source of such comic. Clearly, you're out of the loop of popular game culture.


http://weknowmemes.com/2012/03/this-is-not-a-gamer-girl/ It's been everywhere for months. I've seen it at least 3 times from different people on my Facebook homepage.

You're really bad at this.

Theaetetus: Oh. You're wrong. And you're not on to anything, as evidenced by your above circular or unsupported arguments. Happy that I've addressed it? I'm sure you are, but you won't admit it, since you're so invested in this topic that you can't admit that you're wrong, even when you're citing vague references like "I saw this comic and it totally said this and I forget where it was or how to find it," or making arguments like "women totally hate women and want to sleep with women and hate sex".


Wow. You've really got some deep seated issues. I mean, I suspected it before, but wow.
 
2012-06-25 06:29:53 PM

Theaetetus: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: If you decide that no matter what you do, you're not going to have a significant female audience for a particular game based on your market research, then you're going to focus your money on the folks that your numbers show is going to be your target market, you direct your marketing dollars at that demographic.

As I said:
Theaetetus: "Are there folks who TRULY TRULY believe that booth babes are the result of companies that are unaware that women play video games?"

Don't forget "feel that women are such a small portion of their audience that they don't care".

In one post, you're admitting that video game companies ignore the female demographic, while in another, you're saying that it doesn't happen.


For individual titles. If you think that the "gaming industry" is a marketing monolith, you really should do some more research into the matter. It's a truly simplistic (and truly wrong) idea.
 
2012-06-25 06:32:07 PM

ProfessorOhki: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: And, as much as some men complain about booth babes, gamers are well known for complaining about a company and their games, and then buying them anyway.

True. I figure it irks people, but isn't a total deal breaker.

[i50.tinypic.com image 585x323]
But, then again, every once in a great while, the invisible hand presents a monolithic middle finger :)


I was reading about that, maybe it was on Ars? Apparently TOR was expected by a whole ton of investors to be on par with WoW (and anyone who as followed the modern history of MMOs should have known better, I suppose). That's not just even a middle finger, though, that's a bona fide wedgie.
 
2012-06-25 06:41:12 PM

Jame5G: This is not to say I'm comfortable with the idea of watching the main character in an action/adventure game become a sexual assault victim. If this appeared in my game as non-interactive cutscene it becomes a depressing reminder that there are awful people in the world, capable of vile acts. If the scene is interactive and I botch it somehow (Which wouldn't ever happen because I've never failed an in-game objective.), I've just failed to prevent the rape and probable slaying of a well known, likable character who, oh by the way, turns out to be a 16 year old Lara Croft. Oooooooooh PLOT TWIST!! I don't find either possibility particularly entertaining, but neither am I going to take part in a product boycott over this.


Seems like most the rage at that one comes from it being a lazy plot device; ie: rape being the go-to for 'severe trauma in any female character's past' and the way the way Ron Rosenberg presented the entire thing. I mean, take the quote about wanting to protect her and rooting for her in a way you wouldn't root for a male character. It was pretty much a slap in the face to anyone who actually did identify with the character, which is apparently a far larger group than he expected. It's a risk you run whenever you do an origin story that strips a badass character of their badassness and it's doubly dangerous when it comes off as that being done specifically because she's a woman; see: Other M.

Gamers in general really don't seem to like having their long-established characters messed with.
 
2012-06-25 06:47:53 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: If a woman doesn't feel "invited" to a booth because there are booth babes there, the woman does indeed have issues. The only way they're "not invited" is if there's a big sign saying "men only" or gets shooed out.


So you've never noticed that an environment may be made welcoming to certain groups rather than others? Have you ever been out in society, or are the rest of us aliens to you?

This argument is always interesting, though, because 1) it concludes that women are offended or alienated by consistent things based on their gender and 2) that there's some magical, non-sterilized, non-vanilla way to ensure that everyone is always included in everything.

I think you need to show your work there, since that conclusion doesn't flow from what I said. I'd start with trying to explain how you get from "if a woman complains" to "all women are offended or alienated by consistent things based on their gender." Do you believe that women are all a uniform block with no individual characteristics? That may make some of your other statements more understandable.

Sure, I suppose you could do that, but then E3 would look like the Industrial Shinglemaker of America Museum.

I realize this may be a tough thing for you to understand, but most attendees are at E3 because they like video games, want to see video games, want to try video games, and/or want to discuss video games. It's possible to do a video game connection that focuses on, say, video games, rather than bikinis. And, remarkably, the result is a video game convention, rather than a shinglemaking convention.


Theaetetus: Don't forget "feel that women are such a small portion of their audience that they don't care".

For individual titles, this may very well be true.


Yes, which is why, contrary to your earlier assertion, many game companies ignore women.
The mistake you're making is believing there's no causal relationship there.

To be right, companies would have to not want more money. Companies want more money.

To be wrong, companies may well want more money, but be wrong about how to get it. Perhaps, like yourself, they think women are a uniform faceless block and that a single thing will appeal to them.

www.interbutt.org

You're so turned around you don't even know that you're agreeing with me, here.

Not at all. I'm simply pointing out that you're concern trolling by ignoring one stated problem and saying people should focus on another, unrelated one.

Theaetetus: Also, it's blatant concern trolling to do the "women are upset about problem X? Well, they really should focus on problem Y."

Interestingly, it's mostly men who are making these statements. How do I know? The predominance of posts in that vein that start with "as a male gamer".


Which statements? "As a male gamer, women are upset about problem X?" "As a male gamer, it's blatant concern trolling?" "As a male gamer, they should focus on problem Y?"
Mind you, none of these were said, so nice red herring there.

http://weknowmemes.com/2012/03/this-is-not-a-gamer-girl/ It's been everywhere for months. I've seen it at least 3 times from different people on my Facebook homepage.

That says more about your friends than anything else. I fail to see how an image that appears on your Facebook page has been "everywhere for months". I mean, really - narcissist much?
It does show up on FunnyJunk, but that's not really an endorsement of much except douchebaggery.
 
2012-06-25 06:50:03 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: If you think that the "gaming industry" is a marketing monolith, you really should do some more research into the matter. It's a truly simplistic (and truly wrong) idea.


Agreed. Only an idiot would think of them as a monolith and say something stupid like "are there folks who TRULY TRULY believe that booth babes are the result of companies that are unaware that women play video games? Absolutely. They're wrong, though."
 
2012-06-25 06:53:35 PM

Theaetetus: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: If you think that the "gaming industry" is a marketing monolith, you really should do some more research into the matter. It's a truly simplistic (and truly wrong) idea.

Agreed. Only an idiot would think of them as a monolith and say something stupid like "are there folks who TRULY TRULY believe that booth babes are the result of companies that are unaware that women play video games? Absolutely. They're wrong, though."


You're really going to assert that there's game studios that don't know there are women gamers? Really? That's what you're going with?
 
2012-06-25 06:56:52 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Theaetetus: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: If you think that the "gaming industry" is a marketing monolith, you really should do some more research into the matter. It's a truly simplistic (and truly wrong) idea.

Agreed. Only an idiot would think of them as a monolith and say something stupid like "are there folks who TRULY TRULY believe that booth babes are the result of companies that are unaware that women play video games? Absolutely. They're wrong, though."

You're really going to assert that there's game studios that don't know there are women gamers? Really? That's what you're going with?


[eyeroll]
That was what you typed. If you remember, I responded by saying that there were game studios that ignored women gamers. You agreed to that, in fact. Please try to keep your argument consistent.
 
2012-06-25 06:57:55 PM
TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: There's a lot of folks who really didn't like that game. Such things are very subjective.

It's not for everyone, it's a very specific genre. If you were a fan of this genre of game, you would probably like it.

I'm sure PGR and its iterations are good games, but I just don't go for racing simulators, so while I recognize them as good games within their respective genre, I personally don't like them.

Likewise, you won't see me touching any sort of ball based sports game (no football, no basketball, no baseball, no soccer, no tennis etc), I'm an escapist gamer, and games based on real life games are just too mundane for me to appreciate.

// also, it's a farked up game, and there are some people who would quit the first time a farked up scene occurred (let's put it this way, you have to cut off one of your own fingers at some point in the game, and let's just say that the voice actor is very good).
 
2012-06-25 07:11:56 PM
TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: There's a lot of folks who really didn't like that game. Such things are very subjective.

Heavy rain in a nutshell (A comedian did a skit on it).

http://farkedupgames.org/2012/02/12/heavy-rain-is-comically-depressin g /

// need to change fark back to the actual word due to the filter.
 
2012-06-25 07:15:12 PM

Theaetetus: So you've never noticed that an environment may be made welcoming to certain groups rather than others? Have you ever been out in society, or are the rest of us aliens to you?


In that situation, the assertion that women don't feel welcome in a booth that has booth babes is about as reasonable as saying that guys who go into a booth with booth beefcake are justified in feeling uninvited. It's not an issue with the booth presentation in either case. Now, if the models (male or female) are assertively unwelcoming, that's another story, but in that case, they're simply not doing their jobs very well.

Theaetetus: I think you need to show your work there, since that conclusion doesn't flow from what I said. I'd start with trying to explain how you get from "if a woman complains" to "all women are offended or alienated by consistent things based on their gender." Do you believe that women are all a uniform block with no individual characteristics? That may make some of your other statements more understandable.


Ah, but see here you're missing the point again. "If a woman complains" implies that we should take action on the behalf of all women based on the opinions of a singular individual. If you do not mean that, perhaps you should restate your meaning more clearly.

Theaetetus: I realize this may be a tough thing for you to understand, but most attendees are at E3 because they like video games, want to see video games, want to try video games, and/or want to discuss video games. It's possible to do a video game connection that focuses on, say, video games, rather than bikinis. And, remarkably, the result is a video game convention, rather than a shinglemaking convention.


If you think that E3 is about bikinis, then you probably need to control your own eyes and impulses a little better. Especially if the simple presence of them prevents you from noticing the video game content. Given that there was extensive gaming-related media coverage of E3, this does not seem to be a problem for most people.

Theaetetus: Yes, which is why, contrary to your earlier assertion, many game companies ignore women.
The mistake you're making is believing there's no causal relationship there.


The mistake you're making is asserting that "for individual titles" means "many game companies ignore women."

What you're basically saying is that all companies are beholden to some standard whereby they should market specifically to women with their games, and that the level is too low by your measure. My position is that they are in the market to make money, and where they believe that marketing to women gamers *specifically* will be profitable, they will do so.

Out of curiosity, how exactly does one market to women gamers in your mind? Be careful, most of those that pop into your head right now are stereotypes you probably have been conditioned to deny.

Theaetetus: To be wrong, companies may well want more money, but be wrong about how to get it. Perhaps, like yourself, they think women are a uniform faceless block and that a single thing will appeal to them.

[www.interbutt.org image 500x379]


So, in your mind, the gaming companies in question are either nefarious or naive and everyone in their marketing departments is wrong most of the time?

Theaetetus: Not at all. I'm simply pointing out that you're concern trolling by ignoring one stated problem and saying people should focus on another, unrelated one.


I don't agree with you on the problem. Booth babes are not the cause of any problem in the gaming industry. Period. Some may argue, as another poster did, that they are a symptom of a different problem, and that may be true, but eliminating them does nothing but appease a very small number of gamers (loud that they may be at present), both male and female, that dislike them.

Theaetetus: Which statements? "As a male gamer, women are upset about problem X?" "As a male gamer, it's blatant concern trolling?" "As a male gamer, they should focus on problem Y?"
Mind you, none of these were said, so nice red herring there.


All of the above and more. Sure, you're going to come back with "well, if women post that they are women gamers, they're going to get jumped on!" and sure that may be true, but since "male" is assumed most of the time on the internet in lieu of other proof, it's trivial to make a comment and have it be assumed to be male. As such, the proper assumption is that if someone is chiming in as "as a male x", they are attempting to use that in some sort of public way to garner favor. Similar to how it works on reddit in the women-centric subreddits. "Look at how my opinion stands me out from the crowd, isn't it favorably significant?"

Theaetetus: That says more about your friends than anything else. I fail to see how an image that appears on your Facebook page has been "everywhere for months". I mean, really - narcissist much?
It does show up on FunnyJunk, but that's not really an endorsement of much except douchebaggery.


Yeah, you're right. It totally shows up in meme collections because I'm the only one who has ever seen it.

Do a reverse image search, based on this link: http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/this-is-not-a-gamerg irl.jpg

It's all over tumblr, too.

Here's the main problem with your mindset, Theaetetus. You're so invested in being an "ally" that you've forgotten how to think for yourself. You know all the catch phrases, you know how to call things "concern trolling" and use variations on "derailment" in order to, amusingly, derail any line of conversation that runs counter to the standard opinion in your echo chamber. You toe the line very well, and I'm sure you get great satisfaction from it, but in the end, all you're doing is repeating memes like some 4channer. Sure, you use more words, and the statements are acceptable to those who are heavily involved with Internet-based social justice issues, but you've lost the ability to critically assess the issues. And for that, I feel sad, because you seem like a smart person, just led astray into activist orthodoxy.

But, you've never used the phrase "It's not my job to educate you," that I've ever seen, so that's a pretty good start.
 
2012-06-25 07:18:53 PM

Theaetetus: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Theaetetus: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: If you think that the "gaming industry" is a marketing monolith, you really should do some more research into the matter. It's a truly simplistic (and truly wrong) idea.

Agreed. Only an idiot would think of them as a monolith and say something stupid like "are there folks who TRULY TRULY believe that booth babes are the result of companies that are unaware that women play video games? Absolutely. They're wrong, though."

You're really going to assert that there's game studios that don't know there are women gamers? Really? That's what you're going with?

[eyeroll]
That was what you typed. If you remember, I responded by saying that there were game studios that ignored women gamers. You agreed to that, in fact. Please try to keep your argument consistent.


I think you don't quite understand the text. Let's try this again.

"are there folks who TRULY TRULY believe that booth babes are the result of companies that are unaware that women play video games?"

"Yes, there absolutely are folks who believe this."

"Those folks who believe that are wrong."

There are no game publishers in existence who are unaware of women gamers. To think otherwise is to entertain a fantasy.

There will be (and are) titles that are not marketed with women in mind. Either because they chose to do that, or the market research for a concept showed that the women gamer consumer base is too low to be a profitable concern for that particular title.
 
2012-06-25 07:23:08 PM

lordargent: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: There's a lot of folks who really didn't like that game. Such things are very subjective.

It's not for everyone, it's a very specific genre. If you were a fan of this genre of game, you would probably like it.

I'm sure PGR and its iterations are good games, but I just don't go for racing simulators, so while I recognize them as good games within their respective genre, I personally don't like them.

Likewise, you won't see me touching any sort of ball based sports game (no football, no basketball, no baseball, no soccer, no tennis etc), I'm an escapist gamer, and games based on real life games are just too mundane for me to appreciate.

// also, it's a farked up game, and there are some people who would quit the first time a farked up scene occurred (let's put it this way, you have to cut off one of your own fingers at some point in the game, and let's just say that the voice actor is very good).


Have you played Deadly Premonition?
 
2012-06-25 07:32:07 PM
And it's the end of the work day, and end of caring about the Interbutts. Tah tah peeps.
 
2012-06-25 07:34:38 PM
Even gamers think it would be a bit creepy for expecting a handy for rescuing Zelda.
 
2012-06-25 07:34:40 PM
TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Have you played Deadly Premonition?

Nahh, I'm so far behind on my gaming it's ridiculous.

// but my TV watching season is over (game of thrones and fringe are done) so I'll be catching up in a bit.

// Finished prototype 2, working on gears 2 right now, then back to Skyrim.
 
2012-06-25 07:48:11 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: In that situation, the assertion that women don't feel welcome in a booth that has booth babes is about as reasonable as saying that guys who go into a booth with booth beefcake are justified in feeling uninvited. It's not an issue with the booth presentation in either case.


"If you feel uninvited, then it's your problem." I realize that does sum up most of your arguments. I just think it's laughably ignorant.

Ah, but see here you're missing the point again. "If a woman complains" implies that we should take action on the behalf of all women based on the opinions of a singular individual. If you do not mean that, perhaps you should restate your meaning more clearly.

No, "if a woman complains" was to create a hypothetical woman that would fall into the categories you had set. Let's return to the tape:
Complaints about pandering that people find offensive and insulting are really just misogyny and sexual repression, somehow combined with white knighting? So, if a woman complains that she feels like she's not invited to the booth when a company uses booth babes, she's really just a person who hates women, is trying to get women to sleep with her, and is sexually repressed to boot?
See, you had said that anyone complaining was either a white knight or a misogynist. So, if a woman complains, she's a white knight or a misogynist?
I was merely pointing out the absurdity of your dichotomy.
Somehow you turned that into a statement that women, as a uniform block, want a single thing.

How something as simple as those two sentences, one of which was quoting you, can go over your head is beyond me.

Theaetetus: I realize this may be a tough thing for you to understand, but most attendees are at E3 because they like video games, want to see video games, want to try video games, and/or want to discuss video games. It's possible to do a video game connection that focuses on, say, video games, rather than bikinis. And, remarkably, the result is a video game convention, rather than a shinglemaking convention.

If you think that E3 is about bikinis, then you probably need to control your own eyes and impulses a little better.


Au contraire, mon frere. You said that if we remove the bikini-clad girls, we would end up with a shinglemaking convention. You apparently ignore the very existence of the games or the game fans. I pointed out that - as you agree - most people recognize that E3 is about video games, and that therefore removing the booth babes would not do away with the content as you argued.

The mistake you're making is asserting that "for individual titles" means "many game companies ignore women."

The mistake you're making is that you believe every game company published a plurality of titles. Some only publish an "individual title". So if they ignore women for that title, then they ignore women, no?

What you're basically saying is that all companies are beholden to some standard whereby they should market specifically to women with their games, and that the level is too low by your measure.

Actually, you've got it backwards. I'm saying they should market to all gamers, regardless of gender, and that hiring booth babes is a waste because it misses a huge demographic. I'm not sure why you think companies should market exclusively to a demographic. It's like you think companies don't want to earn money or something.

Out of curiosity, how exactly does one market to women gamers in your mind? Be careful, most of those that pop into your head right now are stereotypes you probably have been conditioned to deny.

Really? Because "survey" doesn't seem like a stereotype. Can you please explain what trait a "survey" would seem to characterize?

So, in your mind, the gaming companies in question are either nefarious or naive and everyone in their marketing departments is wrong most of the time?

i948.photobucket.com
Nah, these guys totally know what broads like. So much so that they don't need to ask them or listen to them, and if said broads don't like their campaign, why, it's those women that have the problem.

Booth babes are not the cause of any problem in the gaming industry. Period... eliminating them does nothing but appease a very small number of gamers (loud that they may be at present), both male and female, that dislike them.

So they do cause a problem, then.
Does eliminating them save money? Yes.
Does eliminating them cost sales? No.
Does eliminating them result in a video game convention being nothing more than a shinglemaking convention? No.
So, why keep them? Ignorance, naivety, bigotry, etc. It's clearly not justified by any reasonable marketing decision.

Theaetetus: Which statements? "As a male gamer, women are upset about problem X?" "As a male gamer, it's blatant concern trolling?" "As a male gamer, they should focus on problem Y?"
Mind you, none of these were said, so nice red herring there.

All of the above and more. Sure, you're going to come back with "well, if women post that they are women gamers..."


Actually, I was going to come back with "none of those were said, so nice red herring there."
Lots of things haven't been said that we could discuss. But why bother?

Yeah, you're right. It totally shows up in meme collections because I'm the only one who has ever seen it.

Do a reverse image search, based on this link: http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/this-is-not-a-gamerg irl.jpg

It's all over tumblr, too.


255 hits out of more than a hundred billion pages. Wow. It's like the next Lolcat. How could I possibly have missed something that is easily more widespread than Justin Beiber and Katy Perry combined?

Here's the main problem with your mindset, Theaetetus.

Is it my mastery of logic and facts and refusal to let someone constantly backpedal and shift goalposts?
I agree... It doesn't make me the most popular sort in the circles of people who would post on your Facebook page.
 
2012-06-25 08:07:24 PM

Antimatter: On the flip side, you had a few both models that were not fans on the series, not fans of the fans, and basically treating it as a paid gig and nothing more. They often felt very distant and treated the fans like crap. the girl who was dressed as Jill Valentine for the Resident Evil 3ds game booth was like that.


And that's why they're models, not actors, and will eventually become strippers.

/if you cant be genuine at least act.
 
2012-06-25 08:16:45 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Are you sure it's not that as you've gotten older you've become more particular about your gaming quality standards?


I was always picky. I was more eager to try different games back when I had more free time, but I always fell back to the same favorite games I played over and over. In my wife's case, her preference is for JRPGs and there is a VERY tangible drop in overall quality -- and I doubt anyone in the industry would deny it. She works full time and does her fair share of the chores, yet with her limited time she still manages to literally run out of games to play (having re-played her favorites and going many months between even half-decent releases).

I'm not so blinded by nostalgia to think there was ever a time where good games outnumbered bad ones, but before the suits took over if a studio threw serious money at a title you can at least bet the game would be decent. Now the more money that's invested in a title, the more cautious I get.
 
2012-06-25 08:24:16 PM

Fano: Even gamers think it would be a bit creepy for expecting a handy for rescuing Zelda.


That is almost literally the least she could do. Is there anyone in the history of video games with a worse case of blueballs than Link? At least Mario has the prospect of anonymous, DADT Toad sex when the dark, lonely night is at its coldest.
 
Displayed 50 of 165 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report