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(Chicago Trib)   Final poll before SCOTUS rules on Obamacare shows Americans still hate it even though they love everything in it   ( articles.chicagotribune.com) divider line
    More: Stupid, Americans, U.S. Supreme Court, obamacare, Ipsos, political independents, health care law, Americans oppose, individual mandate  
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2803 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Jun 2012 at 7:27 PM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



351 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2012-06-24 10:26:11 PM  

Endive Wombat: While there are many aspects of the law that are problamatic for me, the requirement to purchase is the one that bugs me the most. If I choose to do without coverage, that's my business, not the Federal Government's.

You sir, are the reason there are now bill collectors in the ER.

 
2012-06-24 10:28:18 PM  
I.e., "Keep yer gubbmint hands off my Medicare."

Man are those freedom/liberty/teabagger types in for some huge surprises.

"Wait...what?"

"WHAT?!?!?!"
 
2012-06-24 10:33:52 PM  

s2s2s2: Kome: RoyBatty: Most Americans oppose health law but like provisions

[i.imgur.com image 622x298]

I like almost everything in this car.

If I desperately needed a mode of transportation and that ugly machine was the only one I could conceivably use for the time being, I should really not care so much about how it looks and focus more on what it can do for me. Does it work? Great! The fact that it looks like sh*t is lamentable, but ultimately irrelevant.

What if it cost more to keep up than the job you have to get to pays?


Well, you've convinced me. Time to ditch the ugly car, lose the job as a result and no longer be a productive contributor to the country, and sit around collecting unemployment money from the government.
 
2012-06-24 10:35:08 PM  
Aside:: Am becoming increasingly aware that "myFark" easily parses to "myocardial infarction."
 
2012-06-24 10:36:37 PM  

runcible spork: but life has consistently shown me that increasing amounts of bureaucracy tend to correlate with accumulated and unintentional idiocy


Don't confuse bureaucracy with regulation.
 
2012-06-24 10:36:58 PM  
RoyBatty: See also:

Truthdig: Chris Hedges' Columns: Obama's Health Care Bill Is Enough to Make You Sick

Fifty Medical Doctors for Single Payer Urge Supreme Court to Strike Down Individual Mandate


Thanks for posting those. It seems pretty clear to me now that we have to get away from the employer paid model. It's not controlling costs, not insuring everyone, and it's a major drag on our economy. Not only does the ACA do nothing to bring costs down, but it actually further entrenches a system we know does not work. I honestly can't recall a single piece of legislation, passed in my lifetime, that is more irresponsible than this one. It doesn't solve problems and adds the creepy new idea that Congress can make you enter into contracts with private companies whenever they think there is some public policy benefit.

If the Court upholds the mandate, we won't see actual reform for a very long time.
 
2012-06-24 10:41:04 PM  

Botkin of the Yard: I honestly can't recall a single piece of legislation, passed in my lifetime, that is more irresponsible than this one.


How old are you?

Medicare Part D?

PATROIT Act?

DoMA??

DMCA?
 
2012-06-24 10:41:11 PM  

s2s2s2: Kome: RoyBatty: Most Americans oppose health law but like provisions

[i.imgur.com image 622x298]

I like almost everything in this car.

If I desperately needed a mode of transportation and that ugly machine was the only one I could conceivably use for the time being, I should really not care so much about how it looks and focus more on what it can do for me. Does it work? Great! The fact that it looks like sh*t is lamentable, but ultimately irrelevant.

What if it cost more to keep up than the job you have to get to pays?


I had a job at starbucks a couple of years ago. I had insurance for my partner and myself through them. Then, it got to where filling up the car cost more than I was paid. I kept it for as long as I could since my partner's work wouldn't cover me, but it was way too much in gas. We haven't been able to get affordable insurance since then, so no doctors for us. Of course, he's a disabled vet, so he can go to the VA if he needs. I however just pray that nothing happens to me, because we can't afford it.

TLDR: insurance shouldn't be tied to work, because if you lose your job/have to quit, you're screwed.
 
2012-06-24 10:41:38 PM  
People hated Social Security when it was first implemented. Now, you can't even get a Tea Bagger to want to cut it.
 
2012-06-24 10:41:55 PM  

Botkin of the Yard: I honestly can't recall a single piece of legislation, passed in my lifetime, that is more irresponsible than this one.


You type really well for a 3 year old.
 
2012-06-24 10:42:27 PM  
Much as I dislike the new health care bill (I'm pro-single payer), I have lived in a society where there is an individual mandate (Switzerland) and having studied their health care system it becomes immediately apparent that the system would fall apart without everyone buying in. Don't people in America get that? Of course, the Swiss government is nowhere near as corrupt as ours because corporations don't run Bern as they run D.C. and the Swiss government heavily regulates the health care companies, but still- without an individual mandate, it simply would not work.
 
2012-06-24 10:43:50 PM  
Oh, and I forgot to add:
Go 'mercia!!! We're #1 (for not giving a damn about the poor, needy, and sick) USA USA USA
 
2012-06-24 10:43:54 PM  

Kome: s2s2s2: Kome: RoyBatty: Most Americans oppose health law but like provisions

[i.imgur.com image 622x298]

I like almost everything in this car.

If I desperately needed a mode of transportation and that ugly machine was the only one I could conceivably use for the time being, I should really not care so much about how it looks and focus more on what it can do for me. Does it work? Great! The fact that it looks like sh*t is lamentable, but ultimately irrelevant.

What if it cost more to keep up than the job you have to get to pays?

Well, you've convinced me. Time to ditch the ugly car, lose the job as a result and no longer be a productive contributor to the country, and sit around collecting unemployment money from the government.


Or you could call your Chinese friend for a loan.
 
2012-06-24 10:45:47 PM  

coco ebert: Don't people in America get that?


No, Americans want their cake and to eat it, as well. They want to be protected and coddled but they don't want to admit their part of a society.
 
2012-06-24 10:46:07 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: runcible spork: but life has consistently shown me that increasing amounts of bureaucracy tend to correlate with accumulated and unintentional idiocy

Don't confuse bureaucracy with regulation.



One often begets the other.
 
2012-06-24 10:47:40 PM  

fusillade762: F*cking cognitive dissonance, how does it work?

abb3w: mandate

If they'd just called it a tax we wouldn't be in this mess now.


It's not a tax. The mandate says that by 2014 you need to prove you have some sort of private coverage. If you don't you will suffer a tax penalty that increases as time goes on. There are subsidies for lower income people. The idea is to get everybody who can afford insurance to buy it.
 
2012-06-24 10:47:44 PM  
Please, the Supreme Court is above such petty things as fickle popularity contests and can use their brilliant minds guided by the great principals that make this nation great to make a ruling that provides the best path to the future while upholding the traditions that brought us to today. Those great principals,of course, being cold, hard, cash.
 
2012-06-24 10:48:10 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: Don't confuse bureaucracy with regulation.


Regulations don't enforce themselves.
 
2012-06-24 10:48:23 PM  

truthseeker2083: s2s2s2: Kome: RoyBatty: Most Americans oppose health law but like provisions

[i.imgur.com image 622x298]

I like almost everything in this car.

If I desperately needed a mode of transportation and that ugly machine was the only one I could conceivably use for the time being, I should really not care so much about how it looks and focus more on what it can do for me. Does it work? Great! The fact that it looks like sh*t is lamentable, but ultimately irrelevant.

What if it cost more to keep up than the job you have to get to pays?

I had a job at starbucks a couple of years ago. I had insurance for my partner and myself through them. Then, it got to where filling up the car cost more than I was paid. I kept it for as long as I could since my partner's work wouldn't cover me, but it was way too much in gas. We haven't been able to get affordable insurance since then, so no doctors for us. Of course, he's a disabled vet, so he can go to the VA if he needs. I however just pray that nothing happens to me, because we can't afford it.

TLDR: insurance shouldn't be tied to work, because if you lose your job/have to quit, you're screwed.


Healthcare should be free for everyone, and funded in like measure as is war.
I hope things improve for you.
 
2012-06-24 10:49:04 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: coco ebert: Don't people in America get that?

No, Americans want their cake and to eat it, as well. They want to be protected and coddled but they don't want to admit their part of a society.


Well, it's farking annoying. I really don't have anything more profound than that. It's farking annoying that we can't view our society as a society instead of a random assortment of highly rational individuals who can pick and choose exactly what he or she wants and doesn't want with no repercussions.
 
2012-06-24 10:49:18 PM  
Isn't healthcare overpriced because of insurance? I have insurance now, and the same doctor visit I had prior to insurance was 65 bucks. Now with insurance I still end up paying around 65 bucks, but when the charges come in to show what insurance covers it was well over 500 bucks. How does that work, oh yeah, its a scam
 
2012-06-24 10:49:27 PM  
DamnYankees

Good argument. About the best defense of this stupid thing I've seen yet.
 
2012-06-24 10:50:12 PM  

Botkin of the Yard: RoyBatty: See also:

Truthdig: Chris Hedges' Columns: Obama's Health Care Bill Is Enough to Make You Sick

Fifty Medical Doctors for Single Payer Urge Supreme Court to Strike Down Individual Mandate

Thanks for posting those. It seems pretty clear to me now that we have to get away from the employer paid model. It's not controlling costs, not insuring everyone, and it's a major drag on our economy. Not only does the ACA do nothing to bring costs down, but it actually further entrenches a system we know does not work. I honestly can't recall a single piece of legislation, passed in my lifetime, that is more irresponsible than this one. It doesn't solve problems and adds the creepy new idea that Congress can make you enter into contracts with private companies whenever they think there is some public policy benefit.

If the Court upholds the mandate, we won't see actual reform for a very long time.


I agree.

One of my big concerns with the employer paid model, apart from how unfair it is to the mostly employed, or underemployed as well as to the entrepreneur or small business person, is that it makes American companies have very different cost structures than oversea competitors. And I think that means ACA becomes very uncompetitive.

I do fear that similar to HillaryCare in '93, it will be 20 years before the politicians try this again, which is why I want to see it rejected/want to see it passed.
 
2012-06-24 10:53:58 PM  

s2s2s2: truthseeker2083: s2s2s2: Kome: RoyBatty: Most Americans oppose health law but like provisions

[i.imgur.com image 622x298]

I like almost everything in this car.

If I desperately needed a mode of transportation and that ugly machine was the only one I could conceivably use for the time being, I should really not care so much about how it looks and focus more on what it can do for me. Does it work? Great! The fact that it looks like sh*t is lamentable, but ultimately irrelevant.

What if it cost more to keep up than the job you have to get to pays?

I had a job at starbucks a couple of years ago. I had insurance for my partner and myself through them. Then, it got to where filling up the car cost more than I was paid. I kept it for as long as I could since my partner's work wouldn't cover me, but it was way too much in gas. We haven't been able to get affordable insurance since then, so no doctors for us. Of course, he's a disabled vet, so he can go to the VA if he needs. I however just pray that nothing happens to me, because we can't afford it.

TLDR: insurance shouldn't be tied to work, because if you lose your job/have to quit, you're screwed.

Healthcare should be free for everyone, and funded in like measure as is war.
I hope things improve for you.


Thanks. I hope so too. All I know is, things have to change. This bill may not be perfect, but it's at least a step towards the ultimate goal of if not tax funded healthcare, at least affordable and consistant care.
 
2012-06-24 10:56:36 PM  
NEWSFLASH: People like the parts where they get things for free from the insurance companies (guaranteed issue, allowing children to stay on parents insurance). They dislike the parts that make it so insurers can actually afford to do those things (individual mandate).

Surveys and articles like this that claim that 'people like the parts, but not the whole, so they must have been brainwashed by republicans' are stupid. People like getting stuff for free. They dislike being told they have to pay for it. That's all these polls show.
 
2012-06-24 10:56:44 PM  
I'LL come over and mow your lawn, walk your dog, wash the dishes, clean out your gutter, and beat you to within an inch of your life with a tire iron. This is a package deal I like to call Nedicare. Now, so far, Nedicare is hugely unpopular. However, if I ask people about individual components they are almost all universally likes.

I can only conclued that the dislike for Nedicare stems from an evil conspiracy to slander the name.
 
2012-06-24 11:01:09 PM  

truthseeker2083: I had a job at starbucks a couple of years ago. I had insurance for my partner and myself through them. Then, it got to where filling up the car cost more than I was paid. I kept it for as long as I could since my partner's work wouldn't cover me, but it was way too much in gas. We haven't been able to get affordable insurance since then, so no doctors for us. Of course, he's a disabled vet, so he can go to the VA if he needs. I however just pray that nothing happens to me, because we can't afford it.


I hear ya. I stayed for years in a terribly sucky job that had good health care benefits. Would have loved to start my own business but without health care for the family, it was impossible.

I think it's grossly unfair to the American People to tie health care to being employed by some big company. And more than just unfair, it actively hurts the American Economy / American Experiment.

That said, a tip of my hat and lots of thanks to Henry Kaiser of Kaiser Steele in who the days before WWII and during WWII was one of the first leaders to make health care available to his workers on a large scale.
 
2012-06-24 11:02:03 PM  
RoyBatty

As far as costs go, that was my big objection too. It's been two years now and I think people have had time to think this through. Insuring employees continues to get more costly and, in many cases, a lot of those costs get shifted to the employee. And, at the same time, wages don't increase enough to cover that and overall health care costs increase. Normally, people would call this sort of thing unworkable. Or crazy.

I understand that people like certain parts of the ACA. The goodies were front-loaded after all. But people have seen through that. It's encouraging to see signs that the general public is smarter than the political class.
 
2012-06-24 11:05:30 PM  

Botkin of the Yard: The goodies were front-loaded after all.


What are you talking about? It is literally designed the opposite way. The bill was passed in 2010 and was designed that most of its changes would not go into effect in 2014. Or do you have access to some insurance exchanges I'm not aware of.
 
2012-06-24 11:13:09 PM  
DamnYankees: What are you talking about? It is literally designed the opposite way. The bill was passed in 2010 and was designed that most of its changes would not go into effect in 2014. Or do you have access to some insurance exchanges I'm not aware of.

You're kidding me right?

Children kept on parent's coverage to 26, free wellness and preventative services, guaranteed issue to those under 19. You're familiar with these and other things right? Apparently not, but that's the stuff that polls well. And it's already in effect. The mandate, not surprisingly, does not poll well and there is an understanding now that this thing will not control costs or get us out from under the employer paid model.
 
2012-06-24 11:17:22 PM  

Talondel: NEWSFLASH: People like the parts where they get things for free from the insurance companies (guaranteed issue, allowing children to stay on parents insurance). They dislike the parts that make it so insurers can actually afford to do those things (individual mandate).

Surveys and articles like this that claim that 'people like the parts, but not the whole, so they must have been brainwashed by republicans' are stupid. People like getting stuff for free. They dislike being told they have to pay for it. That's all these polls show.


So what should we do? Execute Order 66?
 
2012-06-24 11:17:54 PM  

puffy999: MyRandomName: Aca was not argued under tax and spend you ignorant twat.

Medicare isn't a "tax."


Wanna bet?
 
2012-06-24 11:22:33 PM  
how about we have a poll that tests people's knowledge of what Obamacare really does, and could do for them. Some people still think it includes death panels for Grandma and Grandpa
 
2012-06-24 11:24:45 PM  

Botkin of the Yard: The goodies were front-loaded after all.


Are you trolling or stupid?
 
2012-06-24 11:30:33 PM  
Dwight_Yeast

Neither. Do you have anything productive to offer or is being childish all you can manage?
 
2012-06-24 11:34:09 PM  
Americans are too farking stupid to deserve nice things.

/I'm sure it's been said already......
 
2012-06-24 11:34:42 PM  

coco ebert: Much as I dislike the new health care bill (I'm pro-single payer), I have lived in a society where there is an individual mandate (Switzerland) and having studied their health care system it becomes immediately apparent that the system would fall apart without everyone buying in. Don't people in America get that? Of course, the Swiss government is nowhere near as corrupt as ours because corporations don't run Bern as they run D.C. and the Swiss government heavily regulates the health care companies, but still- without an individual mandate, it simply would not work.


we are bad, switzerland is significantly less bad, but also maybe not so great. of course they don't do things like intentionally decreasing the number of residency slots to increase physician pay so they will never be as good as being bad at providing efficient healthcare as us.
I'd rather look to the systems that really hold down cost. like japan. they do well for having such an elderly population (it's actually the oldest in the world).

Link

healthcare as percentage of gdp.
www.paecon.net

www.kff.org
 
2012-06-24 11:37:27 PM  

Botkin of the Yard: Neither. Do you have anything productive to offer


I think calling you out is quite productive. ;)
 
2012-06-24 11:37:41 PM  

kkinnison: how about we have a poll that tests people's knowledge of what Obamacare really does, and could do for them. Some people still think it includes death panels for Grandma and Grandpa


if it had decent death panels, I'd actually be more apt to support it.


Japanese Pay Less for More Health Care
 
2012-06-24 11:38:51 PM  

runcible spork: I honestly don't know who to be angrier at, the Republicans for being such obdurate jerks, or the Democrats for being so pathetically spineless, even more than we've become accustomed to.


You can choose between Evil or Lame. That's pretty much it politically.
 
2012-06-24 11:41:56 PM  

mrshowrules: itsdan: Gig103: Fixed for me -- I know there are already some taxes in place, but now the good employers are punished for offering good benefits.

The republicans told us if you don't have high copays and deductibles that you would go to the doctor for every little sniffle and drive up prices.

Anyways, do yo know how much your plan costs per year? I work at a company of only about 10 people and my boss gives us insurance where we play no deductible, no copays, and all our prescriptions are covered 100%. The plans include costs for those things and then an employer funded pool is used to pay for the rest, but it's all tied to the insurance itself. I don't have a recent paystub here but I seem to recall paying about $55 every other week for a single plan, and that's 20% of the premium, so if I'm right about the deduction from the paycheck it means my plan costs somewhere around $7000/yr, even if you factor in me using my deductible, a few copays and prescriptions, that's still $2000-3000 less than the Cadillac plan cutoff.

Canadians don't pay a cent and if anything, they wish people went to their doctors more often.


They enslaved their doctors and nurses?!?! I'm shocked! Or do you think taxes aren't payments for government provided social services?
 
2012-06-24 11:42:48 PM  
Dwight_Yeast: I think calling you out is quite productive. ;)

Calling me out on what? The things I listed are already in effect. Those are the items in the ACA that poll well. The law, overall, has not become popular. But hey, if you can find a way to prove that those things are not already in effect, or that they aren't popular, then you might be on to something. Best of luck, and see if you can do it while being a grownup.
 
2012-06-24 11:47:39 PM  

Botkin of the Yard: Calling me out on what?


Being either an idiot or a troll.

The things you listed aren't the most important part of the healthcare bill and the most important parts have yet to take effect. They're things like preventing insurers from denying coverage for pre-existing conditions, limiting insurers' profits (including forcing insurers to refund overages to the insured), making healthcare more affordable for the self-employed and subsidizing it for those who can't afford it.

And all of those bits poll well, too.

So do you wish to keep farking your chicken or do you want to answer my question: idiot or troll?
 
2012-06-24 11:47:54 PM  
Dear relcec,

Customers who enjoyed links such as "Japanese Pay Less For Healthcare" and infographics such as "US Healthcare vs. European Countries (as percentage of GDP and per-capita)" also looked at "The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems" (caveat: "The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems was last produced in 2000, and the WHO no longer produces such a ranking table, because of the complexity of the task. ")

/ doubtful that things have improved in the last 12 years
 
2012-06-24 11:49:36 PM  

relcec: coco ebert: Much as I dislike the new health care bill (I'm pro-single payer), I have lived in a society where there is an individual mandate (Switzerland) and having studied their health care system it becomes immediately apparent that the system would fall apart without everyone buying in. Don't people in America get that? Of course, the Swiss government is nowhere near as corrupt as ours because corporations don't run Bern as they run D.C. and the Swiss government heavily regulates the health care companies, but still- without an individual mandate, it simply would not work.

we are bad, switzerland is significantly less bad, but also maybe not so great. of course they don't do things like intentionally decreasing the number of residency slots to increase physician pay so they will never be as good as being bad at providing efficient healthcare as us.
I'd rather look to the systems that really hold down cost. like japan. they do well for having such an elderly population (it's actually the oldest in the world).

Link

healthcare as percentage of gdp.
[www.paecon.net image 419x298]

[www.kff.org image 640x375]


Oh, it's far from perfect. It's not super progressive in that while the poor get help from the state, working class and middle class people pay the same rates as the rich. Also, it's very expensive. That said, I have never heard of anyone being refused service or having problems with insurance companies paying out. Insurance companies are not allowed to make a profit off of basic care and so there are disincentives built into the system to keep insurance companies from gouging patients.

My hubby and i have already decided that even if we are covered in the U.S. there just is no trusting the system and if we have some sort of catastrophic health issue, we're packing it up and heading back to good ol' CH.
 
2012-06-24 11:53:53 PM  
runcible spork: ...Japanese Pay Less For More Healthcare...

FTFM
 
2012-06-24 11:58:16 PM  
I'm just here to toss this into the water:

American corporations outsource jobs - high-paying jobs like software engineering - to Canada for this exact reason, that the state pays for healthcare, which saves on their costs.

Nothing else would help business, small and large alone, than having single payer.

Back to your poutrage thread...
 
2012-06-24 11:59:32 PM  
Dwight_Yeast

Ah, I knew it. You just can't avoid being childish. It's pathetic but I've seen you post before so it's not unexpected.

First of all, I did not say that the early implementation included all of the important parts of the bill. I was responding to Damn Yankees mistaken assertion that most of the law does not take affect until 2014. It's actually being rolled out bit by bit. You apparently didn't notice that I was responding to something specific. Your mistake.

Also, I'm aware that guaranteed issue is popluar. The problem is that the mandate is not. It shouldn't be either, because it's an incredibly stupid and damaging way to go at the problem of health insurance. But, who knows, the Court may make a mistake and uphold the mandate. Then we'll have to wait several more years before real reform comes along.

The law will not make health care more affordable in the long run and that, along with the mandate to do business with companies like United Healthcare, is why the ACA is not popular and why it never will be popular.

So congrats. You've managed fail to grasp anything and, at the same time, indicate that you support insurance companies over people. Good job.
 
2012-06-24 11:59:42 PM  

starsrift: Nothing else would help business, small and large alone, than having single payer.


Too bad we don't have a credible force backing single payer here.
 
2012-06-25 12:04:10 AM  

truthseeker2083: Obama needs to come out and say this country should be a xian theocracy with a gun in every hand. The right wing would explode in rage over it...


Probably because of the implication that it isn't already one.
 
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