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(The New York Times)   Shortage of workers in your trade? Schools already filled to capacity? How about we make the experienced workers go back to school too?   (nytimes.com) divider line 33
    More: Stupid, work experience, Association of Colleges, Abington, online courses, shortages, nurses, nursing schools, workers  
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2777 clicks; posted to Business » on 24 Jun 2012 at 3:21 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-24 12:26:57 PM
images.wikia.com

HEL-LO EXPANDED EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS!

/You read that in their voices
 
2012-06-24 12:47:56 PM
It seems like it would make more sense to push LPNs to become RNs before they pushed RNs to become BSNs.
 
2012-06-24 02:02:44 PM

cmunic8r99: It seems like it would make more sense to push LPNs to become RNs before they pushed RNs to become BSNs.


I know a lot of LPNs and RNs (seems to be a big thing down here)... and I agree. At least from what I know about the differences between what an LPN can do and an RN can do.
 
2012-06-24 03:41:17 PM
This is the type of thing that screws up employment numbers.
 
2012-06-24 04:04:11 PM
Most likely another contributing factor to the very disproportionate rise in health care costs

I'd go out on a limb and say there's little reason for this requirement other than saturation of the labor force
 
2012-06-24 04:45:09 PM
MY sister in law is an RN, had been working as an LVN for a few years before she got her AS degree. Passed her state boards the first time, completed the practical work in about half the time of other students. When she graduated 7 years ago there were hospital representatives waiting in the parking lot outside the stadium where the ceremony was held handing out forms, applications and pamphlets to the exiting graduates.

Now she realizes she has to go back to school to get her bachelors' to even stay in the game. She has almost 15 years experience in her field, yet that's not good enough any more. This makes abso-farking-lutely no sense whatsoever to me. I have no problem with degrees (have two myself) or college (loved it)... but this is just another example of how employers are the entities that drive the market for education, and not colleges as the FARK college haters whine all the time. You get the degree they want or you don't get the job.

Why do they do this? Because fark you, that's why. Now go get another degree.
 
2012-06-24 04:51:22 PM
Wife is going through it now. Over 20 years in ICU/CCU. It's good for her since it's heavily subsidized though and she wanted to do it anyway. The kick is she wants to use it as a crutch to get out of bedside nursing.
 
2012-06-24 06:00:28 PM
They had better be getting higher pay than teachers are!
 
2012-06-24 06:34:07 PM
Depending on what they do, this may make sense. But a blanket requirement, regardless of job duties, is dumb. But dumb never stopped bureaucrats and politicians.

Though I will say that if there is one group of people I want to be taking continuing education, (as opposed to some silly bachelors requirement), it is those in the health field.

Also, from what I have heard from nurses I know, they get treated pretty shabbily in many places, which is surprising if there is this kind of shortage.
 
2012-06-24 07:12:28 PM

tomWright: Depending on what they do, this may make sense. But a blanket requirement, regardless of job duties, is dumb. But dumb never stopped bureaucrats and politicians.

Though I will say that if there is one group of people I want to be taking continuing education, (as opposed to some silly bachelors requirement), it is those in the health field.

Also, from what I have heard from nurses I know, they get treated pretty shabbily in many places, which is surprising if there is this kind of shortage.


That's what makes the bachelor's requirement all the more silly, especially for people with a few years experience under their belts...they've passed the licensing exam, and on top of that taken continuing education to maintain that license, most of which is much more valuable (ACLS, CCRN, CEN, things like that) than anything they'll learn in a BSN program (most BSN programs do not teach the advanced cert courses at least from what I'm aware).

My anecdotal evidence from back in my EMS days is that the BSN was no more competent than the non-BSN with the same number of years experience in the same setting, they just had some extra letters on the name tag that they made sure to use on every form they signed.

/Also has nothing against college
//Does have something against degree requirements for jobs that don't necessarily require 4 years of schooling
 
2012-06-24 07:15:32 PM

rewind2846: employers are the entities that drive the market for education


Why, because employers don't mind if their labor costs go up?
 
2012-06-24 07:38:52 PM
Couldn't they learn this on the job? How the hell do they learn more in some BS classroom than they could learn IN A FREAKING HOSPITAL SURROUNDED BY DOCTORS?!

Seriously, this isn't one of those professions that is made better by being in the classroom. There's a freaking reason why doctors have to go through the hell of residency.
 
2012-06-24 07:51:30 PM

James F. Campbell: rewind2846: employers are the entities that drive the market for education

Why, because employers don't mind if their labor costs go up?


No, because employers are greedy. It's psychology. No matter what your actual level of knowledge, the employer will always choose the person with the best paperwork (degrees) because they think they are getting more "value" for their money. It's the same psychology behind putting "40% more" on a bottle of detergent in large red and yellow text, even though the manufacturer is actually making an even higher profit from the larger size that they do selling the smaller size.

It's all about what they THINK they are getting, which is why you see ads for office assistants that have 4 year college degrees as a prerequisite. What they want, you provide - or else.
 
2012-06-24 08:00:32 PM

farkin_Gary: They had better be getting higher pay than teachers are!


Once teachers are beaten into $11/hour submission, the RW Agitprop Machine will need another well-paid, quasi-public profession to squeeze. Like teachers, nurses can't really be outsourced, so I look forward to the "Nurses Don't Really Care About Patients" rhetoric we'll be hearing in 2015.
 
2012-06-24 08:06:54 PM
FTA: Jennifer Matton is going to college for the third time, no easy thing with a job,church groups and four children with activities from lacrosse to Boy Scouts. She always planned to return to school, but as it turned out, she had little choice: her career depended on it.

If you want to go back to school, I can think of at least one unnecessary thing in your schedule that can be eliminated.
 
2012-06-24 08:09:55 PM

The_Gallant_Gallstone: farkin_Gary: They had better be getting higher pay than teachers are!

Once teachers are beaten into $11/hour submission, the RW Agitprop Machine will need another well-paid, quasi-public profession to squeeze. Like teachers, nurses can't really be outsourced, so I look forward to the "Nurses Don't Really Care About Patients" rhetoric we'll be hearing in 2015.


Don't forget the pharmacists, that whole industry is being bottomed out by walmarts and shopper's drugmarts squeezing out the little ones and replacing them with 12/hour pharmacy techs who're slowly but surely eating all of the pharmacists' duties.

I'm sure glad I work in a safe one like IT...oh wait, shiat.
 
2012-06-24 08:32:13 PM

This poster says: Most likely another contributing factor to the very disproportionate rise in health care costs

I'd go out on a limb and say there's little reason for this requirement other than saturation of the labor force


please. this ties in with insurance and overhead expenses, two of the things hospitals really care about.
 
2012-06-24 08:40:14 PM
I

The_Gallant_Gallstone: farkin_Gary: They had better be getting higher pay than teachers are!

Once teachers are beaten into $11/hour submission, the RW Agitprop Machine will need another well-paid, quasi-public profession to squeeze. Like teachers, nurses can't really be outsourced, so I look forward to the "Nurses Don't Really Care About Patients" rhetoric we'll be hearing in 2015.


Teachers and nurses: positions where women traditionally were employed and made OK money. Can't have that.
 
2012-06-24 10:13:55 PM
My wife is a pediatric trauma nurse. She has an associates in nursing, is an RN, and is also an RNC (registered nurse certified).

They told her she had to get a BSN. She took her transcript to one of those RN to BSN places and there was not a single nursing class that she would have to take. She had already taken them to get her Associates. The requirements were two history, another english, a basic statistics class (1000 level), humanities, crap like that. She thought it was just that one school...she sent it to another for review, same thing.

With three kids and me travelling for work so much she doesn't have the time to do it.

I wonder if the hospitals and decision makes have financial interests that are driving this.

I was starting to plan what I want to do when I can retire from my current job. I thought about becoming a teacher but all of my teacher friends are getting masters degrees to teach elementary school kids. Not sure it is worth it.
 
2012-06-24 10:19:35 PM
Once upon a time there were legendary concepts in the workplaces of America, called benefits. These wonderful things gave employees assistance through other means that weren't monetary, and for a long time life was good.

But benefits were a bane to employers, who had shareholders to think of. "Our quarterly profit is .0002% lower than it should be! Cut back everything that isn't making us money!" So employers grabbed a chainsaw and cut away everything they could; company picnics, paid vacation, pensions, insurance plans and on-the-job-training. And like some sort of death camp, they tossed them all in a mass grave. If you listen carefully, the ghosts of these lost concepts can be heard from the grave saying "we told you not to kill us. Now you're all going to die."

The End
/tl;dr - This is just another way to make employees pay for the "privilege" of working out there.
 
2012-06-24 10:54:54 PM
They did the same thing in IT.

It has nothing to do with improved outcomes, and everything to do with dumping experienced people (with their commiserate pay grades) and replacing them with bright fresh idiots straight out of school (who also come in at the bottom of the pay scale...)
 
2012-06-24 11:00:26 PM
Demanding ever greater nursing credentials is a symptom of a bigger problem. Everyone knows that nurses are waaay cheaper than doctors. Nursing now is vastly more complicated than it was even a few decades ago because so many former duties of M.D.s have been dumped onto nurses. The AMA is essentially a cartel - it artificially constrains the supply of doctors by restricting the number of accredited med schools. So nurses are being used to plug the employment gap but all the financial rewards are still being reaped by M.D.s and hospital shareholders.
 
2012-06-24 11:03:04 PM
oh for fark sake. Florence Nightingale must be spinning in her grave. A degree does not make a good nurse.
 
2012-06-25 12:18:50 AM

grimlock1972: oh for fark sake. Florence Nightingale must be spinning in her grave. A degree does not make a good nurse.


While we are at it...

* An MBA does not make a good businessman.
* Attending church is no indication of morality.
* Anyone who wants the job of President should be immediately disqualified
 
2012-06-25 02:02:24 AM

Evil Twin Skippy: They did the same thing in IT.

It has nothing to do with improved outcomes, and everything to do with dumping experienced people (with their commiserate pay grades) and replacing them with bright fresh idiots straight out of school (who also come in at the bottom of the pay scale...)


One more reason to banish any post-secondary education as a requirement for a job, and require that businesses do the training that they complain about so much. While it might not work so well for medical, it would work wonders for professions like IT where "hire for attitude, train for skill" works wonders.

That, and kill offshoring with extreme prejudice - even if it is painful. That pain does not compare to the kind that everyone feels with offshoring in place. No amount of "but you're wealthier/free to do something else" handwaving can justify it.

Employers should not enjoy any immunity from pain, nor allowed any ability to evade upward market forces.
 
2012-06-25 02:04:41 AM

Jamdug!: This is the type of thing that screws up employment numbers.


Thank businesses for screwing up employment numbers for political gain in the last three years - and being generally anti-American for the last thirty.
 
2012-06-25 06:52:24 AM

Tanukis_Parachute: They told her she had to get a BSN. She took her transcript to one of those RN to BSN places and there was not a single nursing class that she would have to take. She had already taken them to get her Associates. The requirements were two history, another english, a basic statistics class (1000 level), humanities, crap like that. She thought it was just that one school...she sent it to another for review, same thing.

With three kids and me travelling for work so much she doesn't have the time to do it.


Pay a Shadow Scholar to do the work... guy I know charges $300 an undergrad class... it's really easy if they're all online classes.
 
2012-06-25 07:29:33 AM

Evil Twin Skippy: grimlock1972: oh for fark sake. Florence Nightingale must be spinning in her grave. A degree does not make a good nurse.

While we are at it...

* An MBA does not make a good businessman.
* Attending church is no indication of morality.
* Anyone who wants the job of President should be immediately disqualified


You wouldn't happen to have a newsletter, would you?
 
2012-06-25 09:06:29 AM
Or, you know .... we could build more schools.

rewind2846: Why do they do this? Because fark you, that's why. Now go get another degree.


This this this this ....

HS Education for 20 year. Suddenly no more job for you. Why?

Why, yes, it *was* in technology.
 
2012-06-25 09:13:52 AM

Tanukis_Parachute: My wife is a pediatric trauma nurse. She has an associates in nursing, is an RN, and is also an RNC (registered nurse certified).

They told her she had to get a BSN. She took her transcript to one of those RN to BSN places and there was not a single nursing class that she would have to take. She had already taken them to get her Associates. The requirements were two history, another english, a basic statistics class (1000 level), humanities, crap like that. She thought it was just that one school...she sent it to another for review, same thing.


I was wondering how the article mentioned it was done 'mostly online'. I don't see doing practicals and so forth 'online'.

Hey kids, come over here. Momma's got to do some homework....
 
2012-06-25 03:37:10 PM

rewind2846: Now she realizes she has to go back to school to get her bachelors' to even stay in the game. She has almost 15 years experience in her field, yet that's not good enough any more. This makes abso-farking-lutely no sense whatsoever to me. I have no problem with degrees (have two myself) or college (loved it)... but this is just another example of how employers are the entities that drive the market for education, and not colleges as the FARK college haters whine all the time. You get the degree they want or you don't get the job.

Why do they do this? Because fark you, that's why. Now go get another degree.


Then have legislation that says "fark you, but you're going to have to train them" back to employers for doing that or trying to get around not doing that.

While I'm not sure that it could apply to the medical professions, it would go a long way to address about everywhere else.
 
2012-06-27 02:48:15 AM
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that it's because hospitals can charge insurance companies more if the care was delivered by a BSN rather RN.

/when a decision seems odd, first ask yourself "Who stands to make the most money from it?"
 
2012-06-27 04:14:28 PM
the school im at, having gone back to school in my now 40's, has a nursing program..

its just a beautiful thing

;>)
 
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