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(Some creationist social Darwinian)   The American Family Association says there is a very simple way to reduce healthcare costs: If you can't pay, hospitals should not have to treat you   (afa.net) divider line 415
    More: Obvious, American Family Association, Americans, family association, health savings account, needy  
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5359 clicks; posted to Politics » on 24 Jun 2012 at 2:22 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-24 04:11:49 PM
By the way, I'd like to note this is exactly what the GOP said the Death Panels would do.
 
2012-06-24 04:12:45 PM

king of vegas: demaL-demaL-yeH: Hate to tell you this, but since your brother's a randroid at 23 (and not 17), he's beyond the critical age to learn compassion, logic, or economics.
Totaled. Write him off.

I was born in 1972 and was a hard core Republican until the GOP chose Bush as their candidate in 2000. I guess I did a complete 180 because I can find almost nothing about the Republican party that I agree with anymore.


You were never a randroid.
And you're an outlier: Embrace your exceptional status.

/Old enough to remember when the Republican platform was to the left of the positions of Democrats today.
 
2012-06-24 04:13:25 PM
The Death Panels, that's a good band name.
 
2012-06-24 04:15:45 PM

Mrtraveler01: I don't know why, but that one made me laugh a lot more than I probably should've.


www.spurgeonworld.com

Made someone laugh, yay.
 
2012-06-24 04:16:33 PM

GAT_00: By the way, I'd like to note this is exactly what the GOP said the Death Panels would do.


No, Obama's Death Panels would have used a council of radical Islamic Imams to institute backward, Sharia Law like restrictions on women's reproductive rights.

Oh, wait. You're right. My bad.
 
2012-06-24 04:16:34 PM
craphound.com
i4.photobucket.com
 
2012-06-24 04:17:39 PM

Heraclitus: "If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we've got to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that he commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it."

~ Stephen Colbert


This.
 
2012-06-24 04:18:28 PM
FTA: "Most hospitals were started by Christians or Christian organizations, and will find a way to offer care to the indigent whether the federal government is standing over them with a cudgel or not. The American people, because of the spirit of Christianity, are the most generous people on earth, which they prove time after time when disasters hit anywhere in the world. Let's not insult our own people by saying they are not generous and compassionate enough to help the needy with medical care."

Matthew 25:

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. "


How does the Right always seem to miss thing like this in the Bible?
 
2012-06-24 04:19:36 PM
I still don't understand why Americans want to pay more for healthcare than people in the rest of the industrialized world.

Is avoiding 'socialism' or farking over poor people really worth paying twice as much as people in Canada, the UK, or most of Europe pay?
 
2012-06-24 04:20:37 PM
king of vegas:
Basic strategy: If the organization has the word "Family" in its title then it's an evil hate bigot operation.

Agreed. However, my wife pointed out "Family Midwifery" in our city as a contradiction to this, but they're not a political organization. So I propose an amendment.
 
2012-06-24 04:21:53 PM

rustypouch: Is avoiding 'socialism' or farking over poor people really worth paying twice as much as people in Canada, the UK, or most of Europe pay?


Evidently, for many people, yes. Think of it as "better dead than Red", updated for a new period of mass hysteria.
 
2012-06-24 04:23:58 PM

sprgrss: Why is that the organizations with the word family in it are usually the ones that are least interested in actually helping families?


For the same reason that the most horribly repressed country on the face of the world, North Korea, calls itself a Democratic People's Republic.

Because if the authoritarian mind is told that something is X by a perceived authority, it believes it regardless of reality. This is how the Republican Party can still exist despite actively and directly working against the interests of 95% of those who call themselves Republicans. It's a very interesting (and profoundly dangerous) cognitive defect in humans. The only "treatment" is learning critical thinking, and we all know how horrible schools are at teaching that (I wonder why...).
 
2012-06-24 04:25:00 PM

Kome: Oddly enough, your first scenario isn't without precedent. That's more or less how firefighters worked a while back in England. Insurance companies hired their own fire brigades. They put out fires, but only for buildings that had a specific insurance plan. Each insurance company basically had their own crew of firefighters, but they would still be sent out to any instance of a fire. If it turned out the building that was on fire, or nearby buildings which could catch on fire, didn't carry their company's insurance, they would just leave.


The fire situation is different because if you let one house burn down it could set the other houses on fire, causing a huge conflagration that could engulf an entire neighborhood.

The only analogy to healthcare is treating children, where poor children (in a republican world) with no healthcare could spread communicable diseases.
 
2012-06-24 04:25:37 PM

rustypouch: I still don't understand why Americans want to pay more for healthcare than people in the rest of the industrialized world.

Is avoiding 'socialism' or farking over poor people really worth paying twice as much as people in Canada, the UK, or most of Europe pay?


There's a propaganda juggernaut grinding down on the US with regard to socialized medicine that would make North Korea blush. The average American thinks Canadians flee across the border to pay out-of-pocket for care in the US, and to escape Dr. Mengele's Canadian torture hospitals where bone marrow and tears are rendered down into maple syrup.

It's a real eye-opener to just casually talk to Americans about what they think healthcare is like on other countries.
 
2012-06-24 04:26:19 PM
But-but-but pro-life! Obama death panels! But if you're just sick or injured and poor, well, fark you! You weren't bootstrappy enough to deserve to live in America, anyway!

How do these people live with themselves?

media.tumblr.com
 
2012-06-24 04:27:47 PM

Mugato: Christianity today is about the Old Testament, pretty much exclusively. At least the loudest Christians are. Conversely the Jews, who don't subscribe to the New Testament, tend to leave others alone and aren't nearly as judgmental.


You do know the Old Testament is called the Blood Testament for a reason don't you?
 
2012-06-24 04:28:04 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: There's a propaganda juggernaut grinding down on the US with regard to socialized medicine that would make North Korea blush. The average American thinks Canadians flee across the border to pay out-of-pocket for care in the US, and to escape Dr. Mengele's Canadian torture hospitals where bone marrow and tears are rendered down into maple syrup.

It's a real eye-opener to just casually talk to Americans about what they think healthcare is like on other countries.


As an American, yeah no shiat. Try being American and trying to explain to other Americans that our health care is ranked 30th or some shiat. Except for cancer survival, and we'll bankrupt you.

/seriously, like 28th for infant survival or something
//there is NO EXCUSE FOR THAT
 
2012-06-24 04:28:42 PM

LouDobbsAwaaaay: to escape Dr. Mengele's Canadian torture hospitals where bone marrow and tears are rendered down into maple syrup.


Wait... that's not how maple syrup is made?

Well, rats. [kicks stone]
 
2012-06-24 04:31:03 PM

theorellior: rustypouch: Is avoiding 'socialism' or farking over poor people really worth paying twice as much as people in Canada, the UK, or most of Europe pay?

Evidently, for many people, yes. Think of it as "better dead than Red", updated for a new period of mass hysteria.


"Better other people dead than red."

You know these are the same stupid farks that enjoy great insurance, enjoy our infrestructure, and will fall back on any number of social programs when they need to.
 
2012-06-24 04:32:20 PM

Ringshadow: He's never paid for his own insurance. He's on my parents' insurance still.


demotivationalblog.com
 
2012-06-24 04:33:53 PM

missiv: Mugato: Christianity today is about the Old Testament, pretty much exclusively. At least the loudest Christians are. Conversely the Jews, who don't subscribe to the New Testament, tend to leave others alone and aren't nearly as judgmental.

You do know the Old Testament is called the Blood Testament for a reason don't you?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't many Christians (theoretically) believe the New Testament nullifies the Old Testament?
 
2012-06-24 04:34:49 PM
If making money is your only goal, then this strategy makes perfect sense. Just like if cutting government spending is your only goal, turning Medicare into a voucher program that does not keep up with the rising cost of medical expenses makes perfect sense. Just like if the making a profit for insurance companies is your only goal, Romney's idea that only people who have had continuous insurance coverage should not be denied coverage for their pre-existing conditions makes perfect sense.

The problem is that the primary goal of health care should not be to make money. It should be to make people well, or at least make them comfortable so they can die with dignity. Expense must be a factor, but it is only one of many. There needs to be a balance between cost and helping people, but it seems like the Republican half of the country only cares about the money end of the equation.
 
2012-06-24 04:37:10 PM

mrshowrules: Fireman service use to be free market also.

a) you could refuse to put out a fire if the owner couldn't pay

b) develop a system by which the burden of this service was shared equitably


Just imagine if the government forced all the firemen to put out every house that caught on fire. They'd be run out of business in no time!
 
2012-06-24 04:37:21 PM
I plan an opening a chain of high interest health care loan stores next to hospitals when Obamacare is struck down and Medicare with it. Come see me, we'll approve you for a healthcare loan as long as you have steady income or real estate that is paid off. If you don't we can probably hook you up with a funeral loan as long as you have a car title.
 
2012-06-24 04:38:20 PM
its like Jesus said: fark em!
 
2012-06-24 04:39:17 PM
www.sumoflam.biz

It's PEOPLE!
 
2012-06-24 04:40:25 PM
You know, I wish Timothy McVeigh and his ilk would target the AFA, not innocent people in big buildings.
 
2012-06-24 04:42:16 PM

Canton: HeartBurnKid: FTFA: What we lack is not the way but the will.

Oh, if only we could find the will! That would truly be a triumph. A triumph of the will, if you will.

I thought they had a will.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x426]

Oh well. If their will is forgotten, that will be for the best.


You know, I can actually read George Will without feeling a need to stick a fork in my right eye. Douche though he is, he's generally honest and tempered in his arguments. That's what liberals mean when they yearn for a return to a saner right wing. We still disagreed, even vehemently, but this FOX-style sh*t has really jumped the shark.
 
2012-06-24 04:42:36 PM

baka-san: Hey, jackass...

It's ONLY emergency care that hospitals are required by law to give regardless of ability to pay...

And even then it's only till someone can be moved,


Moved where?

Example- health care aide with no insurance shot in the chest on her way home from work in a robbery.

Example #2- Person with diabetes who couldn't afford meds and ends up in the ER in DKA.

Example #3- 50 year old with sudden onset of chest pains presenting with a massive heart attack.

Each of these three examples requires hospitalization at an ICU level for days. One requires major surgery. One may require surgery to open a coronary vessel.

So, I ask again, jackass, moved where and who is paying?

Either we let people die at the ER entrance (like India, Pakistan, most of the middle east, China etc) or we figure out a system where the health care for all is paid for (like the rest of the Western World).
 
2012-06-24 04:43:34 PM

Mugato: These people are worse than Cobra and S.P.E.C.T.R.E. combined.


It's the AFA, dude. They're the people that literal Nazis look at and say "woah, man, that's really harsh, you should back off a bit there."

Ringshadow: /seriously, like 28th for infant survival or something
//there is NO EXCUSE FOR THAT


Infant mortality is so incredibly close to zero in the first world that the first 50 ranks or so are essentially completely random, minor variations in things like regional reporting standards can easily create major shifts in a number that's essentially zero when you're dumb enough to express variations in terms of absolute numbers rather than maintaining a broader perspective.

Basically, there are legitimate examples of US health care having problems but that's not one of them.
 
2012-06-24 04:44:25 PM

dickfreckle: Canton: HeartBurnKid: FTFA: What we lack is not the way but the will.

Oh, if only we could find the will! That would truly be a triumph. A triumph of the will, if you will.

I thought they had a will.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x426]

Oh well. If their will is forgotten, that will be for the best.

You know, I can actually read George Will without feeling a need to stick a fork in my right eye. Douche though he is, he's generally honest and tempered in his arguments. That's what liberals mean when they yearn for a return to a saner right wing. We still disagreed, even vehemently, but this FOX-style sh*t has really jumped the shark.


Jerry: Elaine and I were just discussing whether I could admit a man is attractive
Kramer: Hmm. Yeah. I'll tell you who is an attractive man: George Will.
Jerry: Really?
Kramer: Yeah. He has clean looks, scrubbed and shampooed and...
Elaine: He's smart.
Kramer: No, no, I don't find him all that bright.

/He may be a douche, but at least he's civil about it
 
2012-06-24 04:45:22 PM
All you "what would Jesus do?" people are morons. First of all, you don't even believe in Jesus. Secondly this is a secular constitutional republic with respect for private property, not a theocracy in which we have to do whatever Jesus said. Third, it's not a given that Jesus believed in government run health care.
 
2012-06-24 04:45:24 PM
It's every Americans right to receive services free of charge.

You can not truly have access to something unless it is free.
 
2012-06-24 04:46:40 PM

The_Democrat_Party: It's every Americans right to receive services free of charge.

You can not truly have access to something unless it is free.


A strawman so weak, even Tropical Storm Debby could blow it over.
 
2012-06-24 04:48:46 PM
Let's get employers out of the health-care-providing business and let them give the money they spend on premiums to their employees in the form of raises.

Yes, because that's exactly what would happen, they'd pass the money they're saving on insurance premiums down to the employees. No way the employers would just pocket that extra money for themselves. No way. Those savings would trickle down.
 
2012-06-24 04:49:23 PM
I agree with this statement. If you can't afford the treatment, hospitals should not treat you. I have seen a number of cases where people just don't pay up because they don't have the money. This is healthcare reform.
 
2012-06-24 04:49:47 PM

bidness: All you "what would Jesus do?" people are morons. First of all, you don't even believe in Jesus. Secondly this is a secular constitutional republic with respect for private property, not a theocracy in which we have to do whatever Jesus said. Third, it's not a given that Jesus believed in government run health care.


Well then the Family Association should STFU whenever they feel the need to use scripture to justify their stance on anything.
 
2012-06-24 04:53:21 PM
Actually, here's a CSB that might illuminate the thought processes of a substantial portion of the population. Some years back, I worked with a young woman who's husband was a former Marine trying to get back to normal life after Desert Shield. They were both from Yoakum, a small town in southeast Texas. They lived in Austin, and he worked delivery for a milk company and would regularly visit various restaurants around the city. Well, one of the restaurants had an old wooden ramp in their loading dock, and one day it broke when he was wheeling his dolly over it. He came down hard on his foot, and I'm pretty sure did something nasty to his arch.

From that day on, he was in constant pain, was hard-pressed to keep up his deliveries, and (according to my co-worker) was getting madder and madder about the situation. He would only go see his family doctor, didn't want to see a specialist because "he could take it". I casually suggested to my co-worker that he file for workman's compensation, because it happened on the job and it was a pretty bad injury. You would have thought I'd suggested he should rip the heart out of a random passerby and rub it against his bare chest. OMG that's what lazy attractive and successful African-Americans do, not good Christian boys. He wasn't gonna be BEHOLDEN to anyone, he was gonna get through it himself.

At the time, I admired his steadfastness, but at the same time I thought he was being pig-headed and stupid. He received his injury while doing his job through the negligence of another, therefore he was entitled to just recompense. It wasn't being lazy to stand up for your rights in such a situation. And, on a more personal level, this guy was grinding himself into a deep pit of anger, betrayal and frustration for nothing but black-and-white bootstrappiness. I was actually a little worried that one day I'd come to work and find my co-worker with a nice shiner, or a broken arm, or something worse.

It would not surprise me in the least if this is the mindset, a deeply held mindset, that people who think of "Obamacare" as sociaist commie fascist Sharia-law Death Panels actually hold.

End CSB.
 
2012-06-24 04:54:21 PM

propasaurus: Let's get employers out of the health-care-providing business and let them give the money they spend on premiums to their employees in the form of raises.

Yes, because that's exactly what would happen, they'd pass the money they're saving on insurance premiums down to the employees. No way the employers would just pocket that extra money for themselves. No way. Those savings would trickle down.


Small businesses probably would. Conglomerates...not so much.
 
2012-06-24 04:56:19 PM
Not big on social conservatism, but I find this article pretty much spot on. Forget the social Darwinian crap. No one, or at least a contemptible few, actually want to see poor people suffer and die. I'm for doing it this way because I think it makes far more sense and that it will work better. I'm fine with Economic arguments to the contrary, but simply saying that these ideas are works of evil because they dare to suggest that not every idea we value is improved by being a Government mandate is silly.

I also don't get the 'this is against Jesus' argument. He's not saying people shouldn't help other people, he's saying a Government law mandating such may ultimately help less people. Even the most left-leaning Economist couldn't deny that this can be the case in some situations. I'd love to see some in-depth analysis of why it wouldn't work, but it's not what I'm reading. Instead, I read a lot of facebook posts with smug satisfaction at another supposed Republican idiot, but those people themselves seem totally ignorant to any deeper level of the relationship between the law and the economy.
 
2012-06-24 04:57:26 PM

Coelacanth: I think terminally ill people should strap bombs to their bodies, and walk into houses of worship, and ask the congregation therein if their god (small g) can perform a quick miracle or two.


a.abcnews.com

Agrees
 
2012-06-24 04:57:48 PM

Gergesa: Damn liberals and their sanctimonious, bleeding heart, must save everyone attitudes.


I take it you follow Christ too, right?
 
2012-06-24 04:59:31 PM

bidness: All you "what would Jesus do?" people are morons. First of all, you don't even believe in Jesus. Secondly this is a secular constitutional republic with respect for private property, not a theocracy in which we have to do whatever Jesus said. Third, it's not a given that Jesus believed in government run health care.


1) Prosperity Gospel thumpers believe in a Jesus that didn't exist.
2) Republicans are trying to ban gay marriage and abortion because they think Jesus said those things are immoral.
3) It's not a given that Jesus believed in farking the poor because they couldn't provide for their own health care.

I'm glad you proved my points for yourself. It made things a lot easier for me given how drunk I am on this Sunday afternoon.
 
2012-06-24 05:00:51 PM

whitman00: And even then it's only till someone can be moved,

Moved where?

Example- health care aide with no insurance shot in the chest on her way home from work in a robbery.

Example #2- Person with diabetes who couldn't afford meds and ends up in the ER in DKA.

Example #3- 50 year old with sudden onset of chest pains presenting with a massive heart attack.

Each of these three examples requires hospitalization at an ICU level for days. One requires major surgery. One may require surgery to open a coronary vessel.

So, I ask again, jackass, moved where and who is paying?


I was using "jackass" for the author.

ANd to answer your question, once stable and no longer in immediate life threatening danger, The PT's in your question can be moved from a "Profit" hospital to a "non profit" hospital.
 
2012-06-24 05:02:44 PM
Virtuoso80:

You're right. Get rid of the Government mandates for help, so many Catholic and Christian hospitals can can introduce mandates of their own.

Don't think it'll happen. Some already deny rape kits based on religious beliefs.
 
2012-06-24 05:04:06 PM
I'm pretty cynical but that actually disgusted me. How could these people be so ... cruel? I dunno even what to think. I'm still kinda shocked something like this would be posted on a large institutional website. (Rando bloggers are one thing, but "American Family Association"? Sheesh)

I have friends from the Philippines, and one that died recently, where *each day* they had to pay *UP FRONT* for the costs of the stay, including paying for whatever medicines would be needed that day.
 
2012-06-24 05:07:06 PM
CSB...I once debated a conservative on the ethical reasons why we need universal healthcare and how it's simply the right thing to do. One of his points of argument was that he didn't want to possibly share a waiting room in a Dr's office with vagrants and plebeian types.

This seems to be the underlying selfishness of conservatives. They don't care and they don't want to. They want to be insulated from the droves of less fortunate types, and will make any rationalization necessary to maintain that separation.

Furthermore a popular conservative view point is the tendency is to blame the poor for the ills of society. Instead of looking at unchecked greed and a flawed economic structure, conservatives only see a degenerate lazy lower class that has brought suffering on us all.

In a word the conservative mindset is naive. The implications of said naivety are that one fails to see beyond his/her own self, and judges before they take time to understand.
 
2012-06-24 05:07:26 PM

Virtuoso80: I also don't get the 'this is against Jesus' argument. He's not saying people shouldn't help other people, he's saying a Government law mandating such may ultimately help less people


Again, lawyer speak. "Well technically...this and that. The commandment doesn't say 'kill', it says 'murder' and that's highly negotiable. That rich man passing through the eye of a needle on a camel or whatever, that's misinterpreted. Adultery, well you know shiat happens. But they gay is farking evil, it says so!" ...These are the same people who would base laws upon what they think the Bible tells them as they see it.

So if they don't think that the Bible tells them they should give a fark about anyone else then fine. But STFU abut everything else you think the Bible is telling you.
 
2012-06-24 05:15:14 PM

taxandspend: Virtuoso80:

You're right. Get rid of the Government mandates for help, so many Catholic and Christian hospitals can can introduce mandates of their own.

Don't think it'll happen. Some already deny rape kits based on religious beliefs.


Well, that's up to them. I don't agree with it, and I wouldn't give my money to a hospital that did that, but they can do and not do business with who they want. If most people don't like their policies, they will lose a ton of business another hospital that does things differently. If people do like their policies, then all the hospital is doing is reflecting the values some part of society already had.
 
2012-06-24 05:16:07 PM

LadyBelgara: missiv: Mugato: Christianity today is about the Old Testament, pretty much exclusively. At least the loudest Christians are. Conversely the Jews, who don't subscribe to the New Testament, tend to leave others alone and aren't nearly as judgmental.

You do know the Old Testament is called the Blood Testament for a reason don't you?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't many Christians (theoretically) believe the New Testament nullifies the Old Testament?


You'd think that wouldn't you? They're suppose to let the Old one go. But, one of the first things people toss around is an eye for an eye. The Death penalty is pretty much concept. The New Testament is called the Love Testament... There are only two laws for man to follow in it. Neither one of of them have anything to do with denying anyone anything. There's nothing in it about smiting your neighbor down because he doesn't believe in the Lord either. Another thing that kind of doesn't make much sense is the idea that the Lord needs any human help. If the Lord is the creator, what do these people think he did before he created everything?
 
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