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(Yahoo)   The first journalist to test drive the Tesla Model S says it will change your mind about electric cars: "I can report the Tesla Model S successfully challenges a century of assumptions about what a great car can be"   (autos.yahoo.com) divider line 97
    More: Spiffy, Model S, electric cars, lithium batteries, Tesla Roadster, gas engines, change the world, Elon Musk, flux capacitors  
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3578 clicks; posted to Geek » on 23 Jun 2012 at 10:30 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-23 09:44:04 PM
Finally, a "green" car your neighbors will envy ...
 
2012-06-23 09:47:30 PM
The first sight that greets you behind the wheel is a 17-inch touchscreen that fills the dash, eliminating almost all the buttons and knobs that clutter up most car interiors

Am I the only one that thinks this is a horrid idea? The whole point of physical buttons and knobs is that only a slight glance and the feel by hand can locate what you need with minimal eyes off the road. Not so with a touchscreen, especially if a small bump has you hitting the wrong button, and then you have to undo, go back, find the right one...I just can't see this as being a step forward.
 
2012-06-23 10:04:56 PM
I can drive it from Denver to Albuquerque without an overnight stop to recharge?
 
2012-06-23 10:10:19 PM

Durendal: Am I the only one that thinks this is a horrid idea? The whole point of physical buttons and knobs is that only a slight glance and the feel by hand can locate what you need with minimal eyes off the road. Not so with a touchscreen, especially if a small bump has you hitting the wrong button, and then you have to undo, go back, find the right one...I just can't see this as being a step forward.


You're not the only one at all. It doesn't long to learn all the buttons in your car by feel, and then you can control every feature without ever taking your eyes of the road. Stupid, stupid idea, but it looks cool just like THE FUTURE so I think we're stuck with it.
 
2012-06-23 10:23:15 PM

Durendal: The whole point of physical buttons and knobs is that only a slight glance and the feel by hand can locate what you need with minimal eyes off the road


'cause that's TOTALLY what I do, not look at anything and grope at the radio. NOT!

The Tesla is a rich guy car company. It's $100K or more for their normal model. They aren't making cars for people who are driving anywhere buy in LA traffic. Besides, the girl is the one who's gonna be doing all the button pushing because only nerdy guys will buy this and they'll all be pretending it's the Millennium Falcon because of the noise the electric engine makes.
 
2012-06-23 10:23:54 PM

VictoryCabal: Durendal: Am I the only one that thinks this is a horrid idea? The whole point of physical buttons and knobs is that only a slight glance and the feel by hand can locate what you need with minimal eyes off the road. Not so with a touchscreen, especially if a small bump has you hitting the wrong button, and then you have to undo, go back, find the right one...I just can't see this as being a step forward.

You're not the only one at all. It doesn't long to learn all the buttons in your car by feel, and then you can control every feature without ever taking your eyes of the road. Stupid, stupid idea, but it looks cool just like THE FUTURE so I think we're stuck with it.


If you guys are taking your hands off the wheel, you have already failed. Use the buttons on the steering wheel for the functions offered there, or voice commands, otherwise pull over.
 
2012-06-23 10:29:02 PM

haemaker: If you guys are taking your hands off the wheel, you have already failed.


I hope this is irony because anyone who can actually drive drives one handed at least most of the time. It's only hard turns that require two hands, even without power steering.
 
2012-06-23 10:34:56 PM
Two things:

"I can report the Tesla Model S successfully challenges a century of assumptions about what a great car can be"..... Until it catches on fire.

From TFA: "has vowed to make the Model S the best car in the world, and hopes to sell 20,000 a year"

No Farking way.
 
2012-06-23 10:35:05 PM
Well, at least it looks like a car you would be proud to drive.
 
2012-06-23 10:38:43 PM

Durendal: The first sight that greets you behind the wheel is a 17-inch touchscreen that fills the dash, eliminating almost all the buttons and knobs that clutter up most car interiors

Am I the only one that thinks this is a horrid idea? The whole point of physical buttons and knobs is that only a slight glance and the feel by hand can locate what you need with minimal eyes off the road. Not so with a touchscreen, especially if a small bump has you hitting the wrong button, and then you have to undo, go back, find the right one...I just can't see this as being a step forward.


No. The idea is predictability and consistency. I can run my touch screen radio without looking at it because of this. Meanwhile the physical controls for the front and rear wipers are completely opposite of each other and after two years I still fark up turning the damn things on.
 
2012-06-23 10:38:54 PM
Elon Musk, Tesla's co-founder and CEO, has vowed to make the Model S the best car in the world, and hopes to sell 20,000 a year -- at prices between $54,700 up to $105,400 -- once the factory ramps to full speed.

Yeah. Because if there's anything that spells "car company success", it's a price range in the 90th percentile of standard gasoline auto prices.
 
2012-06-23 10:40:53 PM
That still only costs 55-107k to own, and already heavily subsidized with half a billion from the taxpayers from a struggling automaker.

92 Octane this morning, NOM NOM NOM.
 
2012-06-23 10:44:24 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Because if there's anything that spells "car company success", it's a price range in the 90th percentile of standard gasoline auto prices


Yeah no car company was ever successful selling mostly expensive cars.

www.economicdevelopmenthq.com
 
2012-06-23 10:47:00 PM

doglover: haemaker: If you guys are taking your hands off the wheel, you have already failed.

I hope this is irony because anyone who can actually drive drives one handed at least most of the time. It's only hard turns that require two hands, even without power steering.


Yes, some of us still drive a manual.
 
2012-06-23 10:47:20 PM

taurusowner: Well, at least it looks like a car you would be proud to drive.


It looks like an Aston Martin, don't you think?
 
2012-06-23 10:48:29 PM

unlikely: I can drive it from Denver to Albuquerque without an overnight stop to recharge?


Benevolent Misanthrope: Elon Musk, Tesla's co-founder and CEO, has vowed to make the Model S the best car in the world, and hopes to sell 20,000 a year -- at prices between $54,700 up to $105,400 -- once the factory ramps to full speed.

Yeah. Because if there's anything that spells "car company success", it's a price range in the 90th percentile of standard gasoline auto prices.


Think that pretty much says everything that needs saying.
 
2012-06-23 10:49:24 PM
Reading the review I have one question...

How much is Tesla paying this guy?
 
2012-06-23 10:50:23 PM
Where does electricity come from to run the car?
 
2012-06-23 10:51:28 PM

Dinki: Benevolent Misanthrope: Because if there's anything that spells "car company success", it's a price range in the 90th percentile of standard gasoline auto prices

Yeah no car company was ever successful selling mostly expensive cars.

[www.economicdevelopmenthq.com image 300x187]


They didn't start there either.
 
2012-06-23 10:52:03 PM

Durendal: The first sight that greets you behind the wheel is a 17-inch touchscreen that fills the dash, eliminating almost all the buttons and knobs that clutter up most car interiors

Am I the only one that thinks this is a horrid idea? The whole point of physical buttons and knobs is that only a slight glance and the feel by hand can locate what you need with minimal eyes off the road. Not so with a touchscreen, especially if a small bump has you hitting the wrong button, and then you have to undo, go back, find the right one...I just can't see this as being a step forward.


I have driven a Volvo truck with an automatic transmission. The pushbutton controls for it were on an arm of the driver's chair, like the captain's chair on Star Trek. Going from a 13-speed manual to a 10 speed auto like that was... interesting, but it only took a couple days to get used to the change. I can't imagine this would be any different.

Every time you get a new vehicle, you have to get acquainted with the controls. Turn on the lights-- no, that's the windshield wipers. The lights are on the dash itself. Except for the control for the brights, which are on this other wand. And where the fark did cruise control go to? Not that, that's the volume control on the radio, embedded into the steering wheel. Dammit.

It's real easy to criticize any new control layout, they all require a period of adjustment.
 
2012-06-23 10:52:22 PM

Dinki: Benevolent Misanthrope: Because if there's anything that spells "car company success", it's a price range in the 90th percentile of standard gasoline auto prices

Yeah no car company was ever successful selling mostly expensive cars.

[www.economicdevelopmenthq.com image 300x187]


Try again. BMWs don't start at 54K. Car companies that sell the number of cars Tesla is looking to sell at the price range Tesla is looking to sell them have other models at lower price points.
 
2012-06-23 10:54:38 PM

Dinki: Benevolent Misanthrope: Because if there's anything that spells "car company success", it's a price range in the 90th percentile of standard gasoline auto prices

Yeah no car company was ever successful selling mostly expensive cars.

[www.economicdevelopmenthq.com image 300x187]


Um...
There's a pretty big difference between "mostly" and "entirely".

Not to mention the fact that this isn't BMW, they don't have a track record. If I offered you a ... TreizePad that I feel just blows the iPad away, and show you how awesome it is (and it is awesome), how comfortable would you feel just buying it from me at the same or greater price point, with no guarantees that I will even be around to support it in 5 years?
 
2012-06-23 10:55:10 PM

revrendjim: doglover: haemaker: If you guys are taking your hands off the wheel, you have already failed.

I hope this is irony because anyone who can actually drive drives one handed at least most of the time. It's only hard turns that require two hands, even without power steering.

Yes, some of us still drive a manual.


In the 70's I learned to drive in a VW Beetle while shifting, clutching, passing a bong and holding a beer between my legs and changing 8track tapes and scraping the frost from the inside of the windscreen. What do I win?
 
2012-06-23 10:56:38 PM
But how is it around the Top Gear test track?
 
2012-06-23 10:58:33 PM
I work in Palo Alto & see Tesla cars almost daily so I'm getting a kick.
 
2012-06-23 10:58:56 PM
img.izismile.com

/the best reason to buy one
 
2012-06-23 11:00:09 PM

thesubliminalman: What do I win?


OLD AGE!
 
2012-06-23 11:00:51 PM

OtherLittleGuy: But how is it around the Top Gear test track?


The used '63 bug would have made it around the test track in slightly les than a day, it went zero to 60 in around 20 seconds. As for the cruise control, the long pedal on the floor, push it all the way down and hold it.
 
2012-06-23 11:01:31 PM

doglover: thesubliminalman: What do I win?

OLD AGE!


And this shiny, new onion with belt clip!
 
2012-06-23 11:04:10 PM

PvtHike: doglover: thesubliminalman: What do I win?

OLD AGE!

And this shiny, new onion with belt clip!


I just got a shiny new belt with an onion clip. Modernhigh tech shiat !
 
2012-06-23 11:05:28 PM
Got a chance to test drive a Mitsubishi iMEV at a green-auto show last weekend. I was driving along downtown streets, so I wasn't able to get it much faster than 20mph, but it handled like any other kind of car. Unfortunately, I didn't really pay attention to how responsive the acceleration was, which I really should have since electrics tend to have instant torque. But the ride was quite smooth.

Could have also test drove a Leaf, but I prefer sub-compacts to compacts.

/CSB
 
2012-06-23 11:06:30 PM
media.treehugger.com

What an attractive and successful African American may look like.
 
2012-06-23 11:10:03 PM

haemaker: VictoryCabal: Durendal: Am I the only one that thinks this is a horrid idea? The whole point of physical buttons and knobs is that only a slight glance and the feel by hand can locate what you need with minimal eyes off the road. Not so with a touchscreen, especially if a small bump has you hitting the wrong button, and then you have to undo, go back, find the right one...I just can't see this as being a step forward.

You're not the only one at all. It doesn't long to learn all the buttons in your car by feel, and then you can control every feature without ever taking your eyes of the road. Stupid, stupid idea, but it looks cool just like THE FUTURE so I think we're stuck with it.

If you guys are taking your hands off the wheel, you have already failed. Use the buttons on the steering wheel for the functions offered there, or voice commands, otherwise pull over.


1. Not all cars have controls on the wheel.
2. Not all cars have voice commands.
3. What about manual transmissions?
4. If you think I'm going to pull off the interstate just to adjust the heat on the defogger then you're bloody nuts.

Taking one hand off of the wheel to make a quick adjustment does not a lousy driver make.
 
2012-06-23 11:13:32 PM
Starts at 60k to save me 60 bucks a month? Nope. Didn't change my mind at all.
 
2012-06-23 11:20:45 PM
It's good that someone realized that the only people who ever bought the horribly inefficient Priuses were rich people with more money than sense, and knew that they could exploit that same market to get people to buy an even more useless and over priced hunk of junk.
 
2012-06-23 11:21:07 PM

Durendal: 3. What about manual transmissions?


What about manual transmissions? It's an electric car.
 
2012-06-23 11:24:40 PM

Durendal: 4. If you think I'm going to pull off the interstate just to adjust the heat on the defogger then you're bloody nuts.


Don't worry, it's soon going to be illegal to take it on the interstate, because it runs out of charge too quickly at those speeds and becomes a hazard to the other drivers.
 
2012-06-23 11:28:49 PM
www.thechargingpoint.com
 
2012-06-23 11:32:59 PM

Lost Thought 00: Don't worry, it's soon going to be illegal to take it on the interstate, because it runs out of charge too quickly at those speeds and becomes a hazard to the other drivers.


Trolling or just stupid?
 
2012-06-23 11:40:38 PM
Am I the only one who now wants a Subaru BRZ?
 
2012-06-23 11:41:17 PM

Dwight_Yeast: Lost Thought 00: Don't worry, it's soon going to be illegal to take it on the interstate, because it runs out of charge too quickly at those speeds and becomes a hazard to the other drivers.

Trolling or just stupid?


If you were to try and drive this car from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia, You'd either find yourself on the side of the road or stuck spending the night at a gas station, depending how lucky you get with your timing and acceleration.
 
2012-06-23 11:46:54 PM

Lost Thought 00: Dwight_Yeast: Lost Thought 00: Don't worry, it's soon going to be illegal to take it on the interstate, because it runs out of charge too quickly at those speeds and becomes a hazard to the other drivers.

Trolling or just stupid?

If you were to try and drive this car from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia, You'd either find yourself on the side of the road or stuck spending the night at a gas station, depending how lucky you get with your timing and acceleration.


Ah, so just stupid.
 
2012-06-23 11:51:33 PM

VictoryCabal: Durendal: Am I the only one that thinks this is a horrid idea? The whole point of physical buttons and knobs is that only a slight glance and the feel by hand can locate what you need with minimal eyes off the road. Not so with a touchscreen, especially if a small bump has you hitting the wrong button, and then you have to undo, go back, find the right one...I just can't see this as being a step forward.

You're not the only one at all. It doesn't long to learn all the buttons in your car by feel, and then you can control every feature without ever taking your eyes of the road. Stupid, stupid idea, but it looks cool just like THE FUTURE so I think we're stuck with it.


Damn. I put my bets on wall mounted keyboards being THE FUTURE.
 
2012-06-23 11:52:26 PM
The Prius will make you sniff your own ferts. This car will make you eat your own diarrhea.
 
2012-06-23 11:58:09 PM
Obviously, any car that doesn't cost at least a full year's pay isn't even worth driving.
 
2012-06-24 12:05:03 AM

unlikely: I can drive it from Denver to Albuquerque without an overnight stop to recharge?


Maybe, the 85 kW model has a 300 mile range and they plan to offer a setup to deliver a 1 hour full charge.

They randomly have one on the 2nd floor of Bellevue Square not far from the Microsoft and Apple stores, then they double down on the random by apparently having relatively young kids selling them. But if I was in the market for a $50k luxury sedan, given the amount of city driving I do, I would have to give the Tesla S a strong look.
 
2012-06-24 12:11:10 AM
Oh look it's this thread again....

Don't argue with the "well I can't drive it from x to y" without spending all night charging. There is NO distance they will find acceptable - if it was 12000 miles between charges they'd complain you can't drive it from the US to Europe because it doesnt float.
 
2012-06-24 12:13:53 AM

J. Frank Parnell: [img.izismile.com image 640x480]

/the best reason to buy one


...so you can attach a license plate to your plastic bumper that's made from oil?
 
2012-06-24 12:14:05 AM
haemaker:If you guys are taking your hands off the wheel, you have already failed. Use the buttons on the steering wheel for the functions offered there, or voice commands, otherwise pull over.

How am I supposed to change gears?
 
2012-06-24 12:20:24 AM

unlikely: I can drive it from Denver to Albuquerque without an overnight stop to recharge?


Honestly, how often do you drive more than 300 miles in a day? Do you own a full size truck and moving van, just for the one time a year you need it? Or do you rent one when you need it and own what works for 99.9% of trips?
 
2012-06-24 12:29:43 AM

win95o: J. Frank Parnell: [img.izismile.com image 640x480]

/the best reason to buy one

...so you can attach a license plate to your plastic bumper that's made from oil?


Curiously, the price of plastic is dirt cheap and very stable.
 
2012-06-24 12:34:38 AM

kyuzokai: Am I the only one who now wants a Subaru BRZ?


Yes.
 
2012-06-24 12:44:01 AM
A friend of mine got the first model of Tesla. I thanked him for being an early adopter. They drive the price down for the rest of us. I got a Prius model 1 and felt it was worth the extra to be an early adopter. Great car. No trouble. The effing dealer's mechanic totaled it in a road accident last week and I can't find another one with such low mileage.
 
2012-06-24 12:46:59 AM

Fizpez: Oh look it's this thread again....

Don't argue with the "well I can't drive it from x to y" without spending all night charging. There is NO distance they will find acceptable - if it was 12000 miles between charges they'd complain you can't drive it from the US to Europe because it doesnt float.


With all due respect, for example, I have to drive almost 500 miles from Calgary, Alberta to Peace River, Alberta for a project. Now I drive a truck and where I am going a car wouldn't be an option anyways.

I quite often have to drive this kind of distance for work. Also if I go to visit my dad on a weekend it's a 400 mile trip roughly each way. The inability for a vehicle to either make it there all in one shot, or be refuelled quickly is an issue for me. Until an electric vehicle can overcome the range hurdle (minimum of 12+ hours on the highway) then for me it's a non-starter.

Also the touchscreen and frankly the rest of the interior is fugly.
 
2012-06-24 12:51:28 AM

Representative of the unwashed masses: I quite often have to drive this kind of distance for work. Also if I go to visit my dad on a weekend it's a 400 mile trip roughly each way. The inability for a vehicle to either make it there all in one shot, or be refuelled quickly is an issue for me. Until an electric vehicle can overcome the range hurdle (minimum of 12+ hours on the highway) then for me it's a non-starter.


Well then you are in the .1% people. Most people drive 60 miles per day. That's well within the Tesla's range.
 
2012-06-24 12:52:54 AM
Everybody who can afford a $50K - $100K car raise their hands. Hmmmm, some how I don't think this is going to catch on.

I guess I could buy a used one and rebuild it...how much do you say replacement batteries cost?

Okay, never mind.
 
2012-06-24 12:56:20 AM

cameroncrazy1984: Representative of the unwashed masses: I quite often have to drive this kind of distance for work. Also if I go to visit my dad on a weekend it's a 400 mile trip roughly each way. The inability for a vehicle to either make it there all in one shot, or be refuelled quickly is an issue for me. Until an electric vehicle can overcome the range hurdle (minimum of 12+ hours on the highway) then for me it's a non-starter.

Well then you are in the .1% people. Most people drive 60 miles per day. That's well within the Tesla's range.


Ok, now how do you convince the populace at large that they should spend a premium for a less flexible vehicle. That's the problem Tesla has to overcome. Not even being smarky. Just facty.
 
2012-06-24 01:24:45 AM

Representative of the unwashed masses: Ok, now how do you convince the populace at large that they should spend a premium for a less flexible vehicle. That's the problem Tesla has to overcome. Not even being smarky. Just facty.


No, I'm going to be "facty."

Nissan's plug-in-only Leaf has sold about 12,000 units since its debut in late 2010, so...there may be less to "overcome" than you think.
 
2012-06-24 01:41:23 AM

cameroncrazy1984: Representative of the unwashed masses: Ok, now how do you convince the populace at large that they should spend a premium for a less flexible vehicle. That's the problem Tesla has to overcome. Not even being smarky. Just facty.

No, I'm going to be "facty."

Nissan's plug-in-only Leaf has sold about 12,000 units since its debut in late 2010, so...there may be less to "overcome" than you think.


So you can get one for about 38k Canadian (guessing 30k American) then you add in a charging station at home, that's not cheap So lets call it 40k American.

So there is a market for those who will pay a premium price for a non-premium car, call it prestige or just believing in the electric car. Now you start selling 500,000 a year that's mainstream acceptance. Electric cars are getting better no doubt about it, just not there yet.

I'd be more willing to get a Volt, you get the best of both worlds that way.
 
2012-06-24 02:10:42 AM

Helios1182: unlikely: I can drive it from Denver to Albuquerque without an overnight stop to recharge?

Honestly, how often do you drive more than 300 miles in a day? Do you own a full size truck and moving van, just for the one time a year you need it? Or do you rent one when you need it and own what works for 99.9% of trips?


I live in Denver. 300 miles is not that far. Denver to Santa Fe and back is a four-a-year 500 mile day trip for 10,000 waves and good green chili. I go to fencing tournaments in El Paso and single-day each way. I'd say I go more than 300 miles in a single day 15-20 times a year.

So how I think of electric cars is "Cute gizmo that might be great if I lived in New York or LA and didn't go as far as I do as often as I do but as they are they'll just make me spend the night in the middle of what used to be a one-day trip." So no, this new car won't make me re-think electric cars.
 
2012-06-24 02:26:11 AM
Representative of the unwashed masses

So you can get one for about 38k Canadian (guessing 30k American) then you add in a charging station at home, that's not cheap So lets call it 40k American.

So there is a market for those who will pay a premium price for a non-premium car, call it prestige or just believing in the electric car. Now you start selling 500,000 a year that's mainstream acceptance. Electric cars are getting better no doubt about it, just not there yet.

I'd be more willing to get a Volt, you get the best of both worlds that way.

========

I don't think you want to mess with a Volt.
If what I've heard is true, the battery has to be replaced after about 8 years, or 100k miles, at a cost of $8,000-$9000.

Resale value on a Volt is going to be horrible.
 
2012-06-24 02:27:01 AM
I hope the dashboard GUI is configurable like a linux desktop.

Resize and hide icons as you wish. Each driver can have their own setting.

The EV is here to stay. The US carmakers will insist on going down with the gasoline ship.

Bye bye.
 
2012-06-24 02:29:37 AM
I have no use for a car that can't order me some tomato soup on a rainy day.
 
2012-06-24 02:40:33 AM
Car looks pretty cool but it is expensive. I know they want to offer a model in a lower price range in a few years. I'm still not sure if pure electric is the way to go for a lot of people (maybe as a second car) but it is cool to see an American car company innovating. And maybe they will also help push the technology forward.
 
2012-06-24 02:46:34 AM

haemaker: VictoryCabal: Durendal: Am I the only one that thinks this is a horrid idea? The whole point of physical buttons and knobs is that only a slight glance and the feel by hand can locate what you need with minimal eyes off the road. Not so with a touchscreen, especially if a small bump has you hitting the wrong button, and then you have to undo, go back, find the right one...I just can't see this as being a step forward.

You're not the only one at all. It doesn't long to learn all the buttons in your car by feel, and then you can control every feature without ever taking your eyes of the road. Stupid, stupid idea, but it looks cool just like THE FUTURE so I think we're stuck with it.

If you guys are taking your hands off the wheel, you have already failed. Use the buttons on the steering wheel for the functions offered there, or voice commands, otherwise pull over.


Not even my mom is that much of a biatch
 
2012-06-24 03:15:15 AM

Ciper: haemaker:If you guys are taking your hands off the wheel, you have already failed. Use the buttons on the steering wheel for the functions offered there, or voice commands, otherwise pull over.

How am I supposed to change gears?


It's an electric car. You don't need to change gears.

/are Americans really this stupid?
 
2012-06-24 03:58:08 AM

Dwight_Yeast: It's an electric car. You don't need to change gears.

/are Americans really this stupid?



I live in the Bay Area. My brother works in this particular field. Yes, Americans have very little understanding of electric cars. The "manual transmission" question is very common (sadly).

But there "is" some work being done to add "gears" to electric cars to add more range by keeping the car in the most efficient performance range. Google can help you if you are interested.

I'm hoping to get to ride in this particular model soon.
 
2012-06-24 04:05:52 AM

TommyymmoT: I don't think you want to mess with a Volt.
If what I've heard is true, the battery has to be replaced after about 8 years, or 100k miles, at a cost of $8,000-$9000.



The 8 years and 100k mile warranty is true, but the cost is not. The present cost for a replacement battery is $2250-3000. It is unclear what the cost will be in 8 years (of 100k miles). The expected average degradation of the battery in 8 years is 30%. The 8 year 100k miles doesn't mean the battery stops working at that point.
 
2012-06-24 04:31:39 AM

downpaymentblues: But there "is" some work being done to add "gears" to electric cars to add more range by keeping the car in the most efficient performance range. Google can help you if you are interested.


It would seem the obvious solution would be a continiously-variable transmission, like the Prius (and a number of gas-powered cars) uses.
 
2012-06-24 04:55:43 AM

downpaymentblues: TommyymmoT: I don't think you want to mess with a Volt.
If what I've heard is true, the battery has to be replaced after about 8 years, or 100k miles, at a cost of $8,000-$9000.


The 8 years and 100k mile warranty is true, but the cost is not. The present cost for a replacement battery is $2250-3000. It is unclear what the cost will be in 8 years (of 100k miles). The expected average degradation of the battery in 8 years is 30%. The 8 year 100k miles doesn't mean the battery stops working at that point.

===========
You're probably right, but I just glommed this off some forum:

larry4pyro01-23-2012, 12:07 AM
Over on the Leaf forum someone called a Chevy dealer asking about the $3,000 battery. Turns out that's the cost of the battery enclosure, you still need to add three or four cell modules estimated to cost $1400 each. So the rumours is the Volt battery runs between $8K - $9K. I read Mikes battery cost estimate and the costs for the various options sound reasonable. My guess is a battery replacement 8 or 9 years from now will only be around $4k, which includes trading-in the old battery. It would really be nice if the future battery also had a bit more range.
============

If you consider the fact that EVs 8 years from now, are likely to be much more improved, (lower cost, and with greater range), it still does not make the Volt an attractive option on the used car market.
 
2012-06-24 08:11:54 AM

TommyymmoT: If you consider the fact that EVs 8 years from now, are likely to be much more improved, (lower cost, and with greater range), it still does not make the Volt an attractive option on the used car market.


I think I've said this before here, but I'll say it again: the Volt seems to have been specifically designed by GM to prove that a hybrid/electric car is simply not feasible.

/it might have worked if the Prius hadn't been on sale for years before the Volt's launch
//and the fact that GM built the EV-1 20 years ago.
 
2012-06-24 08:22:50 AM
If BMW can sell 310,000 5-Series internationally then 20,000 teslas isn't out of the question.
 
2012-06-24 08:59:58 AM

Treize26: Um...
There's a pretty big difference between "mostly" and "entirely".

Not to mention the fact that this isn't BMW, they don't have a track record. If I offered you a ... TreizePad that I feel just blows the iPad away, and show you how awesome it is (and it is awesome), how comfortable would you feel just buying it from me at the same or greater price point, with no guarantees that I will even be around to support it in 5 years?


upload.wikimedia.org

images3.wikia.nocookie.net

upload.wikimedia.org

upload.wikimedia.org

www.ascariraceresort.com

i665.photobucket.com

It's been done before. It can be done again.
 
2012-06-24 09:02:15 AM
Welfare Xmas: Everybody who can afford a $50K - $100K car raise their hands. Hmmmm, some how I don't think this is going to catch on.

*raises hand*

And I'm not even close to "wealthy." There's a market for it out there. I wont be an early adapter of this car though. I like my gasoline engines too much right now. I just might get one of these, however.

Brammo Empulse
 
2012-06-24 09:18:16 AM

harm dealer: If BMW can sell 310,000 5-Series internationally then 20,000 teslas isn't out of the question.


Thing is though, which would you buy given the choice? Which is a question I think Tesla will need to deal with. The roadster was a toy. This one is going for something different.

I'd take the BMW. I can get an AWD 535i for the starting price of the Tesla. I could also get a loaded M5 for less than the loaded Tesla. On top of that, I know what I'm getting with a BMW.
 
2012-06-24 09:39:18 AM

CtrlAltDestroy: Treize26: Um...
There's a pretty big difference between "mostly" and "entirely".

Not to mention the fact that this isn't BMW, they don't have a track record. If I offered you a ... TreizePad that I feel just blows the iPad away, and show you how awesome it is (and it is awesome), how comfortable would you feel just buying it from me at the same or greater price point, with no guarantees that I will even be around to support it in 5 years?

[upload.wikimedia.org image 241x79]

[images3.wikia.nocookie.net image 120x161]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 298x238]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x58]

[www.ascariraceresort.com image 200x200]

[i665.photobucket.com image 400x300]

It's been done before. It can be done again.


And all of the manufacturers you've listed make toys. Most at $1 million a pop or more. Tesla's after an entirely different market here.
 
2012-06-24 10:06:49 AM

PvtHike: And all of the manufacturers you've listed make toys. Most at $1 million a pop or more. Tesla's after an entirely different market here.


Koenigsegg CCX - Around $650,000

Aerial Atom 3 - Starts at $52,480

Gumpert Tornante - $500,000

Noble M600 - $306,000

Ascari A10 - $650,000

Pagani Zonda - $500,000 (was 320k at it's debut 10 years ago)

Whar one million, whar?!

Yes, most are toys. But that makes the "risky" part of the point that was raised even more risky. Yet these companies are still around.

Want even riskier? The Atom. It's within the range of the blue collar crowd. And it's a "toy." It's even riskier for the sub $100,000/yr crowd to buy one because if it breaks they can't laugh it off and buy something else. But Ariel is still around and doing better than ever.

But, either way, my point still stands. A company can come out of nowhere, offer only luxuries, and be successful.

Hell, both Japan and Korea have broken into the US market with ALL of their cars and now are absurdly successful. And it's not that the
Honda came in years ago and took over i>Harley Davidson's market. Motorcycles are pretty damn "luxury" and/or "toy" and a foreign rival with no established foothold in that market walked in and biatch slapped the reigning king.

China will be the next to enter the US market. And I'm willing to bet that they will end up doing pretty well.
 
2012-06-24 10:18:15 AM

PvtHike: And all of the manufacturers you've listed make toys. Most at $1 million a pop or more.


That just got you favorited as "idiot?"
 
2012-06-24 10:21:44 AM

CtrlAltDestroy:
China will be the next to enter the US market. And I'm willing to bet that they will end up doing pretty well.


No one wants poison cars.
 
2012-06-24 10:33:35 AM

CtrlAltDestroy: China will be the next to enter the US market. And I'm willing to bet that they will end up doing pretty well.


They've got to meet our emissions/import standards first, and they've also got to stop making cars which are just copies of other company's cars.
 
2012-06-24 11:02:02 AM

unlikely: I live in Denver. 300 miles is not that far. Denver to Santa Fe and back is a four-a-year 500 mile day trip for 10,000 waves and good green chili. I go to fencing tournaments in El Paso and single-day each way. I'd say I go more than 300 miles in a single day 15-20 times a year.

So how I think of electric cars is "Cute gizmo that might be great if I lived in New York or LA and didn't go as far as I do as often as I do but as they are they'll just make me spend the night in the middle of what used to be a one-day trip." So no, this new car won't make me re-think electric cars.


Fair enough. An electric car may not suit your transportation needs at this point. However, the majority of people do city and suburban driving exclusively, and certainly under 300 miles per day.

If you want to get in on the action, a hybrid might be a better option. While optimal for city driving, they are also rated higher on the highway than their gas only counterparts. And even if you decide to opt for a gas only car, highway driving allows them to operate in their optimal fuel efficiency range for extended periods of time.
 
2012-06-24 11:27:52 AM

CtrlAltDestroy:

Aerial Atom 3 - Starts at $52,480

The Atom. It's within the range of the blue collar crowd.


Yeah. Most blue-collar folks consider a $52000 car to be within their price range.
 
2012-06-24 01:09:44 PM
This is cool and all but I think what electric car makers need to do is have easily replaceable and standardized battery packs. The tech for the rest of these cars is fine but the batteries are the weak spot, the tech bottleneck. Once the battery can be popped out you can swap it every few years if need be to keep the car in tip-top shape. You can also swap it if there is a new battery technology in a few years that makes the old tech obsolete. And this also opens up a market for used batteries which will lower the price of the cars.

Also: there have been ideas of "charging stations" based on this technology. Instead of charging the battery, you stop into a service station with a place like they do oil changes, and your battery is simply swapped for one with a fresh charge. This keeps everyone's battery the same as new (and of the latest technology), would make a "fill-up" probably take about 3-5 minutes, and would eliminate the need for home charging stations (though you could still use one, of course).
 
2012-06-24 01:24:49 PM

Representative of the unwashed masses: Fizpez: Oh look it's this thread again....

Don't argue with the "well I can't drive it from x to y" without spending all night charging. There is NO distance they will find acceptable - if it was 12000 miles between charges they'd complain you can't drive it from the US to Europe because it doesnt float.

With all due respect, for example, I have to drive almost 500 miles from Calgary, Alberta to Peace River, Alberta for a project. Now I drive a truck and where I am going a car wouldn't be an option anyways.

I quite often have to drive this kind of distance for work. Also if I go to visit my dad on a weekend it's a 400 mile trip roughly each way. The inability for a vehicle to either make it there all in one shot, or be refuelled quickly is an issue for me. Until an electric vehicle can overcome the range hurdle (minimum of 12+ hours on the highway) then for me it's a non-starter.

Also the touchscreen and frankly the rest of the interior is fugly.


Homeboy, your company pays for your truck anyway (or you bill it back if you're independent). The most key part of your statement is that cars aren't an option for where you're driving anyway. We all drive company paid diesel trucks for a reason.

Now, the 20 min commute from my house to the shop where I pick up my truck or hop in my supervisors and go to work for 2 weeks? Yeah, I can easily do that in an electric car (difficulty - charging station at the shop to keep it charged for 2 weeks in the winter). But I don't have to prove my penis is big by driving a pickup, so I'm an oddity in this industry.
 
2012-06-24 01:24:55 PM
To everyone reading this thread filled with Fark experts, just stop right now. Go to jalopnik and read what what is basically the only real review of the car. I knew Fark was filled with blowhards, but I've never seen both sides be so wrong.
 
2012-06-24 01:39:15 PM
Battery swap isn't going to work.

If I take good care of my car, why would I want to give the battery away in exchange for one with an unknown history?

I can wait for a charge.
 
2012-06-24 02:04:00 PM

Dwight_Yeast: CtrlAltDestroy: China will be the next to enter the US market. And I'm willing to bet that they will end up doing pretty well.

They've got to meet our emissions/import standards first, and they've also got to stop making cars which are just copies of other company's cars.


True. But they have been specifically engineering cars for our market. They are capable. Hell, the copies that they make are so good that you can take body parts off of the real thing and bolt them to the fake with a perfect fit, and vice versa.

RickN99: CtrlAltDestroy:

Aerial Atom 3 - Starts at $52,480

The Atom. It's within the range of the blue collar crowd.

Yeah. Most blue-collar folks consider a $52000 car to be within their price range.


I know plenty of tradesmen who do. Unless you're saying that electricians, machinists, machine operators, etc aren't blue collar. No, you're average janitor can't afford it. But other blue collar types can. And I never said "most" blue collar, either.
 
2012-06-24 02:25:15 PM

duffblue: To everyone reading this thread filled with Fark experts, just stop right now. Go to jalopnik and read what what is basically the only real review of the car. I knew Fark was filled with blowhards, but I've never seen both sides be so wrong.


Uh, Jalopnik has had a hardon to see Elon Musk destroyed since he started Tesla. They were the ones who spent several years trying to prove that the company was a ponzi scheme.

/I like Jalopnik, but they're no better than the rest of the American auto press at this point
 
2012-06-24 10:49:33 PM
No internal combustion engine?...not interested. I dont care how fast it is, I dont care how well it handles. Without the sound and feel of an internal combustion engine, a car is simply less.
 
2012-06-24 11:52:08 PM

Heims: Representative of the unwashed masses: Fizpez: Oh look it's this thread again....

Don't argue with the "well I can't drive it from x to y" without spending all night charging. There is NO distance they will find acceptable - if it was 12000 miles between charges they'd complain you can't drive it from the US to Europe because it doesnt float.

With all due respect, for example, I have to drive almost 500 miles from Calgary, Alberta to Peace River, Alberta for a project. Now I drive a truck and where I am going a car wouldn't be an option anyways.

I quite often have to drive this kind of distance for work. Also if I go to visit my dad on a weekend it's a 400 mile trip roughly each way. The inability for a vehicle to either make it there all in one shot, or be refuelled quickly is an issue for me. Until an electric vehicle can overcome the range hurdle (minimum of 12+ hours on the highway) then for me it's a non-starter.

Also the touchscreen and frankly the rest of the interior is fugly.

Homeboy, your company pays for your truck anyway (or you bill it back if you're independent). The most key part of your statement is that cars aren't an option for where you're driving anyway. We all drive company paid diesel trucks for a reason.

Now, the 20 min commute from my house to the shop where I pick up my truck or hop in my supervisors and go to work for 2 weeks? Yeah, I can easily do that in an electric car (difficulty - charging station at the shop to keep it charged for 2 weeks in the winter). But I don't have to prove my penis is big by driving a pickup, so I'm an oddity in this industry.


You're right I do get paid for mileage when I use my truck for work, no reason to be snarky. My point is that an all electric isn't practical for those who don't want to be limited in terms of daily range. Get the range over 12 hours on the highway per day and I'll think differently. As for the truck? Not only does it provide income I like trucks. I don't jack them up, chip them etc. mine has a 5.3L with a 6 speed auto that gets great mileage.
 
2012-06-25 02:38:05 AM
I'm getting a kick, etc...

two of my family's vehicles:

carphotos3.cardomain.com

carphotos.cardomain.com

The charger's hood is off at the moment as I'm working on wrapping up the engine build (stock 440 strocked to 505", balanced forged rotating assembly, main girdle and high-end main caps, aluminum ported heads,etc - recent update was to configure megasquirt-3x for sequential injection & timing. Got it running last week, but need to get the a/c hoses finished up and some other minor wrap-up work on it before I put the hood on.

The leaf, meanwhile, 12k miles in a few days more than a year, $25/month. Probably 95% of our family's driving uses that car. The charger is really just a hobby project... But a fun one :)
 
2012-06-25 02:51:02 AM

baka-san: Reading the review I have one question...

How much is Tesla paying this guy?


I didn't think it was possible to blow a car during a review, but there you go. I wonder if this guy had to wipe his mouth after he got done writing that.
 
2012-06-25 02:57:57 AM

Benevolent Misanthrope: Elon Musk, Tesla's co-founder and CEO, has vowed to make the Model S the best car in the world, and hopes to sell 20,000 a year -- at prices between $54,700 up to $105,400 -- once the factory ramps to full speed.

Yeah. Because if there's anything that spells "car company success", it's a price range in the 90th percentile of standard gasoline auto prices.


New tech always has a high price tag. For a good example color TV was actually available way back in 1953 but didn't take off until 1968 because the prices were too high.

The prices will come down as the product gains some market share - hopefully in less than 15 years.
 
2012-06-25 03:00:25 AM

thesubliminalman: revrendjim: doglover: haemaker: If you guys are taking your hands off the wheel, you have already failed.

I hope this is irony because anyone who can actually drive drives one handed at least most of the time. It's only hard turns that require two hands, even without power steering.

Yes, some of us still drive a manual.

In the 70's I learned to drive in a VW Beetle while shifting, clutching, passing a bong and holding a beer between my legs and changing 8track tapes and scraping the frost from the inside of the windscreen. What do I win?


You should have won a cancelled license.
 
2012-06-25 03:03:59 AM

Fizpez: Oh look it's this thread again....

Don't argue with the "well I can't drive it from x to y" without spending all night charging. There is NO distance they will find acceptable - if it was 12000 miles between charges they'd complain you can't drive it from the US to Europe because it doesnt float.


Yeah, there's a lot of cranky old fogey's who hate new technology in this thread.
 
2012-06-25 07:09:01 AM

Sultan Of Herf: No internal combustion engine?...not interested. I dont care how fast it is, I dont care how well it handles. Without the sound and feel of an internal combustion engine, a car is simply less.


That's the same non-argument many people put forward about horses in the early 20th century.
 
2012-06-26 10:56:57 PM

kg2095: thesubliminalman: revrendjim: doglover: haemaker: If you guys are taking your hands off the wheel, you have already failed.

I hope this is irony because anyone who can actually drive drives one handed at least most of the time. It's only hard turns that require two hands, even without power steering.

Yes, some of us still drive a manual.

In the 70's I learned to drive in a VW Beetle while shifting, clutching, passing a bong and holding a beer between my legs and changing 8track tapes and scraping the frost from the inside of the windscreen. What do I win?

You should have won a cancelled license.


What? For owning a beetle or scraping off frost? How do you keep both hands on the wheel?
 
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