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(National Review)   Obama cannot claim executive privilege over a scandal he owns lock, stock, and barrel because the papers requested never involved the White House   (nationalreview.com) divider line 275
    More: Ironic, President Obama, executive privilege, White House, D.C. Circuit, Furious, executive branches, DOJ, checks and balances  
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2255 clicks; posted to Politics » on 21 Jun 2012 at 3:57 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-21 08:41:35 PM

Mikey1969: paygun: You can't use anyone's explicitly stated goals as any indicator of what they want to do.

I think you can't use Romney's explicitly stated goals as any indicator of what they want to do. Although politicians flip and flop all of the time, I don't think I've ever seen ANYONE as happy on both sides of ANY issue as Romney is. The amazing thing is that people keep on supporting him. You'd think the smart ones wouldn't trust him and the less smart ones would at least be insulted by his blatant pandering.


I can't think of anything you can say along the lines of Romney being a slimy dick that I won't agree with.

I still believe Obama when he stated he wanted an assault weapon ban. You're effectively calling Obama a liar if you don't think so.

Any more deflections?
 
2012-06-21 08:41:44 PM

HeadLever: mrshowrules: I think F&F was a complete fark-up but I am curious, how you claim "Wide Receiver" is so different. They were both putting guns into the hands of the drug cartels in Mexico.

As I understand it, WR was actually a controlled delivery program where F&F was not. That is what caused the whistleblowing of the program.


If it was it put guns in the hands of Mexican drug dealers, what's the fundamental difference except the scale and perhaps the level of retardation?
 
2012-06-21 08:43:49 PM

El Pachuco: Wrong citation, buddy - the article you posted was just Holder saying the AWB was something Obama would like to renew,


Actually, as a matter of semantics, "The Obama administration will seek to reinstate the assault weapons ban that expired in 2004 during the Bush administration, Attorney General Eric Holder said today" indicates a little more than just indicating 'something Obama would like to renew'.

Indicating that one "will seek" is typically construed as an attempt, even if it doesn't get very far (as in this case).
 
2012-06-21 08:44:20 PM

mrshowrules:
If it was it put guns in the hands of Mexican drug dealers, what's the fundamental difference except the scale and perhaps the level of retardation?


You don't understand man, we have to give them guns in order to find out where they get their guns!
 
2012-06-21 08:46:29 PM

paygun: mrshowrules:

I think F&F was a complete fark-up but I am curious, how you claim "Wide Receiver" is so different. They were both putting guns into the hands of the drug cartels in Mexico. I understand that it is important for you that these be somehow different on an important fundamental level but to any objective viewer the differences are not substantial. How did the "control" the guns in "wide receiver" after they crossed the border?

I think it was best that people went to jail over Wide Receiver. I agree that people should go to jail over Fast & Furious too.


If incompetent law enforcement was a crime, you better start increasing law enforcement salaries, training and be content with law enforcement agencies hiding in their offices and not taking any chances.

The appropriate punishment for stupid and even irresponsible behavior is being fired. Perhaps in this case, multiple levels of management should be fired.
 
2012-06-21 08:46:39 PM

mrshowrules: If it was it put guns in the hands of Mexican drug dealers,


A controlled delivery is one that has law enforcement (theoretically) is in control of the situation and is able to apprehend the suspect immediately after the illegal activity takes place. Not saying that WR was a perfect plan. Let's face it, anything the ATF is involved is usually FUBAR'ed
 
2012-06-21 08:49:03 PM
Law of the land since 1974 on Presidential executive privilege

Since the White House has circled the wagons and made the claim; that pretty much says the requested documents contain incriminating evidence.

Wonder who will accidentally erase lose the papers in question before
finally turning them over?
 
2012-06-21 08:52:07 PM
Most

Transparent

Administration

EVER!
 
2012-06-21 08:54:30 PM

mrshowrules:

If incompetent law enforcement was a crime, you better start increasing law enforcement salaries, training and be content with law enforcement agencies hiding in their offices and not taking any chances.

The appropriate punishment for stupid and even irresponsible behavior is being fired. Perhaps in this case, multiple levels of management should be fired.


I don't know if you can call it incompetence. It's not like this was one bad decision made by an agent in the field. Five agents around the water cooler don't put together an operation like this because they just don't know any better.
 
2012-06-21 08:55:46 PM

cameroncrazy1984: Ricardo Klement: Too many PC loons in the Democratic party, and they aren't fiscally conservative

Um. What? President Obama is the only one who has come up with a plan for a balanced budget that is fiscally conservative and sound. He happens to be a Democratic President.


Um. What? Lol you have no idea what you're talking about, obviously.
 
2012-06-21 08:55:59 PM

paygun: mrshowrules:
If it was it put guns in the hands of Mexican drug dealers, what's the fundamental difference except the scale and perhaps the level of retardation?

You don't understand man, we have to give them guns in order to find out where they get their guns!


Call me stupid but can't you just arrest them and ask them where they got their guns and maybe cut a few years of their sentence for cooperating. Or maybe a database that tracks who manufactures which gun and where they are sold so if the gun shows up, you can trace where it came from?
 
2012-06-21 08:56:29 PM

paygun: I still believe Obama when he stated he wanted an assault weapon ban. You're effectively calling Obama a liar if you don't think so.

Any more deflections?


I'm not deflecting. I believe Obama more than I believe Romney. I also don't believe Obama is going to present some kind of new assault weapons ban, but I DO believe a bunch of paranoid assholes are going to buy up all of the supplies again, artificially drive the price up, and empty the shelves.

Is that clear enough to show you that I'm not "deflecting"? The fact that I wouldn't trust Romney to tell me if my front yard had turned into a nuclear wasteland overnight, and that I personally don't think that Obama is going to pass a bunch of gun regs? Not because I think Obama is some kind of messiah but because I have seen nothing that really says that to me. You see it, that's fine, but please don't make a run on the gun store, I like to go shooting, and don't want my prices to double, while my supplies dwindle to almost zero again.
 
2012-06-21 08:59:43 PM

DrippinBalls: obama = bush

worthless liberals/leftists = gop/repukes.

It's the same shiat from both sides. Both sides are political idiots. Sad.


Let's see how many posts you can get removed today.
 
2012-06-21 09:02:26 PM

mrshowrules:
Call me stupid but can't you just arrest them and ask them where they got their guns and maybe cut a few years of their sentence for cooperating. Or maybe a database that tracks who manufactures which gun and where they are sold so if the gun shows up, you can trace where it came from?


That's not stupid at all. That's called law enforcement. And the system of tracking serial numbers and what dealer sold which gun has been in place for more than 40 years.

That's how this conspiracy theory got started that the purpose of F&F was just supplying guns, because that's the only part it looks like the ATF accomplished.
 
2012-06-21 09:09:33 PM

Mikey1969: I believe Obama more than I believe Romney. I also don't believe Obama is going to present some kind of new assault weapons ban, but I DO believe a bunch of paranoid assholes are going to buy up all of the supplies again, artificially drive the price up, and empty the shelves.


I don't believe he will either, unless something changes. I also don't think everyone who is buying up guns and ammo is doing so because they're paranoid. People made a killing right after the first ban by selling pre-ban guns.

I haven't bought even any ammo for a few years now because the prices are retarded. I just stopped shooting.
 
2012-06-21 09:23:09 PM

paygun: I haven't bought even any ammo for a few years now because the prices are retarded. I just stopped shooting.


Stop shooting?!?!?!?!?!

How am I gonna stay in practice for when the Black Helicopters come? ;-)
 
2012-06-21 09:28:24 PM

Mikey1969: paygun: I still believe Obama when he stated he wanted an assault weapon ban. You're effectively calling Obama a liar if you don't think so.

Any more deflections?

I'm not deflecting. I believe Obama more than I believe Romney. I also don't believe Obama is going to present some kind of new assault weapons ban, but I DO believe a bunch of paranoid assholes are going to buy up all of the supplies again, artificially drive the price up, and empty the shelves.

Is that clear enough to show you that I'm not "deflecting"? The fact that I wouldn't trust Romney to tell me if my front yard had turned into a nuclear wasteland overnight, and that I personally don't think that Obama is going to pass a bunch of gun regs? Not because I think Obama is some kind of messiah but because I have seen nothing that really says that to me. You see it, that's fine, but please don't make a run on the gun store, I like to go shooting, and don't want my prices to double, while my supplies dwindle to almost zero again.


If Romney said that Obama was born in the US, I might actually convert to being a birfer.
 
2012-06-21 09:47:11 PM
I think Obama got involved to make sure the whole country finds out who the mastermind behind this whole "investigation" is.

dailycensored.com
 
2012-06-21 09:56:23 PM
Personally, I think this all can be solved by going back in time, and Pelosi ordering the arrest of Karl Rove on a contempt charge.
 
2012-06-21 10:02:21 PM

HeadLever: mrshowrules: If it was it put guns in the hands of Mexican drug dealers,

A controlled delivery is one that has law enforcement (theoretically) is in control of the situation and is able to apprehend the suspect immediately after the illegal activity takes place. Not saying that WR was a perfect plan. Let's face it, anything the ATF is involved is usually FUBAR'ed


Fast and Furious was part of the Bush program "Project Gunrunner."

Link

There is no evidence the Bush administration discontinued Project Gunrunner after Wide Receiver. That, of course, is why the GOP House has demonstrated no interest whatsoever in subpoenaing Gonzales or any of the other parties who set Project Gunrunner in motion. This whole charade is pure political showboating.
 
2012-06-21 10:07:33 PM

RDixon: Since the White House has circled the wagons and made the claim; that pretty much says the requested documents contain incriminating evidence.


No it doesn't. It says it involves documents implicating the ability of executive branch figures to speak candidly:

The executive has also argued that because candor is the principal value served
by the exemption, its protection should extend beyond predecisional deliberations to
deliberations involving decisions already made. "Moreover, even if the decision at
issue had already been made, disclosure to Congress could still deter the candor of
future Executive Branch deliberations."63 Executives have also taken the position
that the privilege covers confidential communications with respect to policymaking
well beyond the confines of the White House and the President's closest advisors.
The Eisenhower Administration took the most expansive approach, arguing that the
privilege applied broadly to advice on official matters among employees of the
executive branch.64 The Nixon Administration appears to have taken a similar view,
arguing that the privilege applied to decisionmaking at a "high governmental level,"
but conceding that the protected communication must be related to presidential
decisionmaking.65 The Reagan Justice Department appears to have taken a slightly
narrower view of the scope of the privilege, requiring that the protected
communications have some nexus to the presidential decisionmaking process.66
The George H. W. Bush Administration took the position that recommendations
made to senior department officials and communications of senior policymakers
throughout the executive branch were protected by executive privilege without regard
to whether they involved communications intended to go to the President.67 Finally,
the Clinton Administration took a similarly expansive position that all
communications within the White House68 or between the White House and any
federal department or agency69 are presumptively privileged.

The George W. Bush Administration, through presidential signing statements,
70 executive orders71, and opinions of the Department of Justice's Office of Legal
Counsel (OLC) has articulated a legal view of the breadth and reach of presidential
constitutional prerogatives that if applied to information and documents often sought
by congressional committees, would stymie such inquiries.72 In OLC's view, under
the precepts of executive privilege and the unitary executive, Congress may not
bypass the procedures the President establishes to authorize disclosure to Congress
of classified, privileged, or even non-privileged information by vesting lower-level
officers or employees with a right to disclose such information without presidential
authorization Thus, OLC has declared that "right of disclosure" statutes
"unconstitutionally limit the ability of the President and his appointees to supervise
and control the work of subordinate officers and employees of the Executive
Branch."73 The OLC assertions of these broad notions of presidential prerogatives
are unaccompanied by any authoritative judicial citations.

Link
 
2012-06-21 10:15:20 PM
They don't?

Then why is Al Sharpton (aside from calling the whole mess racist)... why is he claiming Bush's admin knew about it
 
2012-06-21 10:44:23 PM
Hey Farklibs, you should all be pissed that Obama isn't releasing these papers showing this Bush program, Fast and Furious, that has gotten people killed. Why is Obama covering for Bush? Amiright?
 
2012-06-21 10:47:04 PM

MyRandomName: muck4doo: RexTalionis: Wikipedia:

"In the United States government, executive privilege is the power claimed by the President of the United States and other members of the executive branch to resist certain subpoenas and other interventions by the legislative and judicial branches of government. The concept of executive privilege is not mentioned explicitly in the United States Constitution, but the Supreme Court of the United States ruled it to be an element of the separation of powers doctrine, and/or derived from the supremacy of executive branch in its own area of Constitutional activity.[1]"

Exactly. NRO is wrong. Fast and Furious does belong to Obama and cronies.

Do I really need to cite the constitution, the part about one of Congress' duties being Executive Oversight? Or are you going to post Wikipedia articles?

You do know that what sank Nixon was not Watergate, but the cover up, and more importantly the claims of Executive Privilege to cover it up.


I didn't post the Wikipedia article. I commented on it.
 
2012-06-21 10:48:37 PM

muck4doo: Why is Obama covering for Bush? Amiright?


That was good for a laugh.
 
2012-06-21 11:00:44 PM

bugontherug: Fast and Furious was part of the Bush program "Project Gunrunner."


F&F - no.

Project Gun Runner and Wide Receiver - Yes.
 
2012-06-21 11:02:25 PM
Does this mean that John McCain yells at cloud, and Sarah Palin is automatically President?
 
2012-06-21 11:04:03 PM

HeadLever: bugontherug: Fast and Furious was part of the Bush program "Project Gunrunner."

F&F - no.

Project Gun Runner and Wide Receiver - Yes.


To clarify, Fast and Furious was never a Bush Program, while Project Gunrunner and WR were. F&F was post-Bush Operation.
 
2012-06-21 11:08:53 PM
Liberals - nothing they love more than a dead border guard.
 
2012-06-21 11:23:22 PM

beta_plus: Liberals - nothing they love more than a dead border guard.


Right wingers - nothing they love more than thousands and thousands of dead US servicemen.

thesocietypages.org

Except perhaps mocking their sacrifices.

www.democraticunderground.com
 
2012-06-21 11:45:15 PM

bugontherug:

Fast and Furious was part of the Bush program "Project Gunrunner."

Link

There is no evidence the Bush administration discontinued Project Gunrunner after Wide Receiver. That, of course, is why the GOP House has demonstrated no interest whatsoever in subpoenaing Gonzales or any of the other parties who set Project Gunrunner in motion. This whole charade is pure political showboating.


There's some pretty compelling evidence that Obama took office in 2009.
 
2012-06-21 11:49:04 PM

paygun: There's some pretty compelling evidence that Obama took office in 2009.


Bush's time machine was handed down to Obama,I guess. One difference is that Bush only figured out how to go forward in time, though.
 
2012-06-22 12:14:39 AM

muck4doo: Hey Farklibs, you should all be pissed that Obama isn't releasing these papers showing this Bush program, Fast and Furious, that has gotten people killed. Why is Obama covering for Bush? Amiright?


Umm... maybe it's because the documents being asked for don't have anything to do with the program itself (or its antecedents under Bush), but rather are merely a fishing expedition for information that may or may not make Obama look bad? Just a thought.
 
2012-06-22 12:15:16 AM
Ah, Summer. The air is warm, the sun shines, Hurricane season starts just when it becomes worth going to the beach, and fark turns into 4chan.

Ah, Summer.
 
2012-06-22 12:20:28 AM
giving guns to terrorists and drug lords is a longstanding and fine Republican tradition.
why is Issa so pissed that Obama did it too?
 
2012-06-22 12:32:08 AM
What's good for the goose is good for the gander?

Suck it cons.
 
2012-06-22 12:46:09 AM

Biological Ali: merely a fishing expedition for information that may or may not make Obama look bad?


I don't think Issa wants information as much as "7 hearings a week times 40 weeks" in the hope that the appearance of an investigation will imply wrongdoing. It's pretty clear by now he's more interested in his little show than the truth.
 
2012-06-22 01:05:03 AM
So vote libertarian!

Oh wait, he's a Republican who happens to believe in Mormonism too...so what good would that do you?

Hell, Nixon is looking good compared to the modern GOP
 
2012-06-22 01:32:54 AM

HeadLever: To clarify, Fast and Furious was never a Bush Program, while Project Gunrunner and WR were. F&F was post-Bush Operation.


All ran by the same person:

The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division.[23] With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border",[24] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[22] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][23][25]

At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver in September 2009[26] and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded. As of October 4, 2011, nine people had been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms.[18] As of November, charges against one defendant had been dropped; five of them had pled guilty, and one had been sentenced to one year and one day in prison. Two of them remained fugitives.[23]

Another, smaller probe occurred in 2007 under the same ATF Phoenix field division. It began when the ATF identified Mexican suspects who bought weapons from a Phoenix gun shop over a span of several months. The probe ultimately involved over 200 guns, a dozen of which were lost in Mexico. On September 27, 2007, ATF agents saw the original suspects buying weapons at the same store and followed them toward the Mexican border. The ATF informed the Mexican government when the suspects successfully crossed the border, but Mexican law enforcement were unable to track them.[4][10]

Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF's special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF's assistant director for the office of field operations.[27] No charges were filed. Newell, who was special agent in charge from June 2006 to May 2011, would later play a major role in Operation Fast and Furious.[4][24]
 
2012-06-22 01:52:19 AM

Welfare Xmas: Mikey1969: What's a homonym attack? Using words that sound the same but have entirely different meanings? Example: "I'm a-gonna chute ewe!".

And you left a 'd' off of 'add'.

OMFG, I got pwned by the spell checker. All my arguments are therefore invalid (Non-Sequitur).


So the spell checker substituted a hominem for what you meant to say.
 
2012-06-22 02:16:24 AM

downpaymentblues:

All ran by the same person:


Maybe if Obama asks really nice, George Bush will let him make some changes at the ATF.
 
2012-06-22 02:46:26 AM
The transparent government, on parade...behind executive privilege

/man up, Mr. President.
 
2012-06-22 03:21:50 AM

HeadLever: mrshowrules: I think F&F was a complete fark-up but I am curious, how you claim "Wide Receiver" is so different. They were both putting guns into the hands of the drug cartels in Mexico.

As I understand it, WR was actually a controlled delivery program where F&F was not. That is what caused the whistleblowing of the program.


Really? So WR losing weapons just like F&F was controlled?
 
2012-06-22 03:23:38 AM

beta_plus: Liberals - nothing they love more than a dead border guard.


beta_plus, nothing he loves more than being a stupid farking troll.
 
2012-06-22 03:25:38 AM

Richard Saunders: The transparent government, on parade...behind executive privilege

/man up, Mr. President.


Republicans now believe there is no such thing as Top Secret in case of national security? When did they become such liberals?

/Weird.
 
2012-06-22 04:50:45 AM

paygun: downpaymentblues:

All ran by the same person:


Maybe if Obama asks really nice, George Bush will let him make some changes at the ATF.


I'm not sure I understand. Newell has already been removed. U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke resigned.
 
2012-06-22 05:57:40 AM
Fast and Furious is a debacle that would be treated as a huge scandal if a Republican were in charge. The troubling aspect of it is that it makes Holder (or subordinates he is covering for) look damned incompetent. Obama 'owns' it because he is invoking executive priviledge (the coverup). The politically expedient thing for Obama to have done would've been to hang Holder out to dry, but he's too loyal to do that, unfortunately
 
2012-06-22 07:27:33 AM

BritneysSpeculum: And the White House was supposedly uninvolved in the US Attorney firing scandal but that didn't stop Bush from invoking executive privilege to enable Rove, Meirs and other WH officials to avoid subpoenas.


How did that work out for them? Oh, yeah:

On February 14, 2008 the full United States House of Representatives voted 223-32 to pass the contempt resolutions against White House Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten and former White House Counsel Harriet Miers.
 
2012-06-22 07:44:50 AM

tooeasy: Fast and Furious is a debacle that would be treated as a huge scandal if a Republican were in charge. The troubling aspect of it is that it makes Holder (or subordinates he is covering for) look damned incompetent. Obama 'owns' it because he is invoking executive priviledge (the coverup). The politically expedient thing for Obama to have done would've been to hang Holder out to dry, but he's too loyal to do that, unfortunately


BS, the reason this is not a scandal is because of what you said, it involves in competence at its worse. Real scandal involves something illegal or immoral. The truth is that the only reason this is being pursued by the Republicans is because Obama has no scandals so far, so this is the best they got.

Think of all the fark ups even just with the Iraq war, no wmds found, letting arms get to militants, losing track of billions in cash etc... Non of those things became scandals because the didn't involve the Presidents administration doing anything illegal or immoral, and Dems had plenty of scandals on Bush already (Valerie plane, mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners, yellow cake).
 
2012-06-22 08:40:58 AM

HeadLever: bugontherug: Fast and Furious was part of the Bush program "Project Gunrunner."

F&F - no.

Project Gun Runner and Wide Receiver - Yes.


2006-2007: Operation Wide Receiver and other probes

The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division. With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border", Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation. These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.

At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver in September 2009 and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers.
Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded. As of October 4, 2011, nine people had been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms. As of November, charges against one defendant had been dropped; five of them had pled guilty, and one had been sentenced to one year and one day in prison. Two of them remained fugitives.


Weird that Issa didn't see fit to check out that operation...maybe he just hasn't heard of it.
 
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