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(The Newspaper)   New Jersey DOT shuts down 3/4 of state's red light cameras because cities made lights turn red too qu   (thenewspaper.com) divider line 68
    More: Interesting, New Jersey, red light cameras, Texas Transportation Institute, intersection, National Motorists Association, pilot experiments  
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5368 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Jun 2012 at 9:59 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-21 09:27:28 AM
I did notice that the one on Route 1 at Woodbridge Center seems to flash on just about every red. No way there's *that* many people going through.
 
2012-06-21 09:44:52 AM
Unless the cars in the cross traffic are drag racing, the types of "accidents" red-light cameras are suppose to stop do not exist.
 
2012-06-21 10:01:23 AM
Clearly, the citie$ of New Jersey only have the be$st intere$t of the driver$ in mind. How dare PDOT turn off the red light cameras?!
 
2012-06-21 10:01:58 AM
I for one am shocked, shocked I say, that some douchebag city officials would tinker with the settings in order to screw as may law abiding citizens as possible.
 
2012-06-21 10:02:34 AM
In Georgia, implementation of the law produced an immediate 80 percent reduction in violations, so much that the state's primary photo ticketing vendor, Lasercraft, was forced to sell its business.

Sorry, Lasercraft. Looks like you didn't grease the right palms.
 
2012-06-21 10:03:15 AM
Fezzik, you did something right!
 
2012-06-21 10:03:45 AM
Subby....
Que?!?!?!?
 
2012-06-21 10:04:51 AM

FreakinB: I did notice that the one on Route 1 at Woodbridge Center seems to flash on just about every red. No way there's *that* many people going through.


The one on the Plainsfield Ave Rt 1 intersection varies. It doesn't flash when cars blatantly go through a red (not yellow then red but full red before they even hit the intersection) or it flashes when nobody is in the intersection.

Just today, a light outside my job was green and then to had to be less than a second yellow to red.
 
2012-06-21 10:05:41 AM

FreakinB: I did notice that the one on Route 1 at Woodbridge Center seems to flash on just about every red. No way there's *that* many people going through.


There is one by me in jersey city that is like that. Everytime I've seen it turn red, it nails someone. I'm surprised it wasn't on the list.
 
2012-06-21 10:07:10 AM

ChipNASA: Subby....
Que?!?!?!?


Que Sera Sera?
 
2012-06-21 10:07:12 AM
Sounds like the issue is not that the yellow light duration is too short for the posted speed limit, but that most drivers are ignoring the posted speed limit. So clearly the fault lies with the yellow light duration?
 
2012-06-21 10:07:37 AM
If it had ever been about safety, yellow lights would all be 10 seconds across the board, no matter where you live. A digital countdown would be displayed showing how much time is left on the green, and then how much time is left on the yellow. They have countdown clocks for pedestrians but not for the drivers.
 
2012-06-21 10:08:48 AM

ChipNASA: Subby....
Que?!?!?!?


I know, don't you just hate it when submitters try to be funny, as in qu(ickly).

\overlooking the missquote
 
2012-06-21 10:11:14 AM

greatgodyoshi: If it had ever been about safety, yellow lights would all be 10 seconds across the board, no matter where you live. A digital countdown would be displayed showing how much time is left on the green, and then how much time is left on the yellow. They have countdown clocks for pedestrians but not for the drivers.


If they really really were worried about safety, they'd make all lights red for 1 to 2 seconds before the appropriate signal turned green.
 
2012-06-21 10:12:49 AM
it's against the law to shorten the yellow cycle and entrap motorists. Who will be getting fined/going to jail?
 
2012-06-21 10:13:47 AM
revenue generator generates revenue.
 
2012-06-21 10:15:11 AM

greatgodyoshi: If it had ever been about safety, yellow lights would all be 10 seconds across the board, no matter where you live. A digital countdown would be displayed showing how much time is left on the green, and then how much time is left on the yellow. They have countdown clocks for pedestrians but not for the drivers.


it should be green / green & yellow / yellow & red / red no need to change the lights
 
2012-06-21 10:16:21 AM

greatgodyoshi: If it had ever been about safety, yellow lights would all be 10 seconds across the board, no matter where you live. A digital countdown would be displayed showing how much time is left on the green, and then how much time is left on the yellow. They have countdown clocks for pedestrians but not for the drivers.


I tend to use the count down clocks on the cross walk to know how long I have to wait till the light changes. All the cross walk signals switch automatically down here. So its easy to know how long you have to wait.
 
2012-06-21 10:17:06 AM

acronym: it's against the law to shorten the yellow cycle and entrap motorists. Who will be getting fined/going to jail?


Those pesky video cameras, that's who.
 
2012-06-21 10:17:54 AM
Driving tax. It's your turn to pay, citizen!
 
2012-06-21 10:19:04 AM
I've seen this crap in other cites that had red light cameras installed.

Before red light camera, 4+ seconds long yellow, 1 accident a month at most.
After red light camera, 2 second yellow, 3-6 accidents a month....
 
2012-06-21 10:19:26 AM
"NJAS 39:4-106. Sequence of lights
The colors shall be shown in the following sequence: A green light displayed for a predetermined number of seconds followed by an amber light for a reasonable time necessary for the clearance of traffic, followed by a red light, followed by a green light. The timing of all lights shall be determined by the volume of traffic."

Simple solution, more large trucks equals longer amber(yellow) lights.
 
2012-06-21 10:22:55 AM

Andulamb: Sounds like the issue is not that the yellow light duration is too short for the posted speed limit, but that most drivers are ignoring the posted speed limit. So clearly the fault lies with the yellow light duration?


The issue is that the law requires the yellow light duration to be set according to the typical traffic speed at that location (what 85% of people drive, per the law itself), not the posted speed limit. That's because cities were putting up ridiculously low speed limit signs as a way to game the yellow-light time settings.
 
2012-06-21 10:25:32 AM

Andulamb: Sounds like the issue is not that the yellow light duration is too short for the posted speed limit, but that most drivers are ignoring the posted speed limit. So clearly the fault lies with the yellow light duration?


Around here all traffic on the main road is 45 mph. When they put in a red light camera the speed limit was changed to 25 mph, but only for about 50 feet in each direction of the light (read: 1 speed limit sign).

That is a far bigger safety hazard, and was proven rather quickly when accidents skyrocketed. The speed limit was changed back, and I haven't seen the red light cameras used since.

Red light cameras are a money making opportunity; even the companies admit that. And the article even states that, when things were made safer by extending the yellow light, the camera company had to close up shop.
 
2012-06-21 10:26:18 AM

Lost_in_Oregon: ChipNASA: Subby....
Que?!?!?!?

I know, don't you just hate it when submitters try to be funny, as in qu(ickly).

\overlooking the missquote


I thought subby was submitting while driving.
 
2012-06-21 10:29:26 AM

Andulamb: Sounds like the issue is not that the yellow light duration is too short for the posted speed limit, but that most drivers are ignoring the posted speed limit. So clearly the fault lies with the yellow light duration?


If 85% of the traffic is going a certain speed or greater and you set the yellow light timer such that it is unsafe to travel at that speed, then, yes, the fault lies with you. I would argue that you shouldn't have set the speed limit so low that 85% of people are disobeying it, but, given that the speed limit is what it is, you still need to consider the speed traffic is actually moving at if you want to design a safe intersection.

Remember safety? That's supposed to be the goal. Shorter yellows are less safe, so they need to go. Punishing speeders by making their drive less safe makes everyone on the road less safe, so it should not be considered a valid option.
 
2012-06-21 10:29:33 AM

HotWingConspiracy: In Georgia, implementation of the law produced an immediate 80 percent reduction in violations, so much that the state's primary photo ticketing vendor, Lasercraft, was forced to sell its business.

Sorry, Lasercraft. Looks like you didn't grease the right palms.


Yeah, the ones in Arizona are set that there have to be a minimum number of violations each minth, or the city pays the difference to Redflex.
 
2012-06-21 10:31:14 AM

yves0010: greatgodyoshi: If it had ever been about safety, yellow lights would all be 10 seconds across the board, no matter where you live. A digital countdown would be displayed showing how much time is left on the green, and then how much time is left on the yellow. They have countdown clocks for pedestrians but not for the drivers.

I tend to use the count down clocks on the cross walk to know how long I have to wait till the light changes. All the cross walk signals switch automatically down here. So its easy to know how long you have to wait.


I use the crosswalk countdown clock to know if I need to punch it to make the light or not. I really think they are counterproductive.
 
2012-06-21 10:31:48 AM

Andulamb: Sounds like the issue is not that the yellow light duration is too short for the posted speed limit, but that most drivers are ignoring the posted speed limit. So clearly the fault lies with the yellow light duration?


Yes. The yellow signal timing standard used to involve the actual speed at the 85th percentile for a particular road, but the standard has been weakened in recent years and allowed for the substitution of "local standards" for approach speed (read: speed limit).

Longer yellows and red interstitials save lives.

Don't go to an enforcement solution when you haven't properly implemented the engineering solution first.
 
2012-06-21 10:37:12 AM

Misch: Andulamb: Sounds like the issue is not that the yellow light duration is too short for the posted speed limit, but that most drivers are ignoring the posted speed limit. So clearly the fault lies with the yellow light duration?

Yes. The yellow signal timing standard used to involve the actual speed at the 85th percentile for a particular road, but the standard has been weakened in recent years and allowed for the substitution of "local standards" for approach speed (read: speed limit).

Longer yellows and red interstitials save lives.

Don't go to an enforcement solution when you haven't properly implemented the engineering solution first.


It might drive me crazy from time to time, but those red interstitials are an excellent idea.
 
2012-06-21 10:40:09 AM
I just have a sneaking suspicion that if someone were to do a comprehensive study on the lights where cameras were installed, they would pretty much always find interesting discrepancies with their times. But of course, this will never happen, just as the 'stop-and-frisk' policy in NY is not going to happen. There is just too much money to be made from them.

Then, there is the interesting fact of where they put these cameras. Here in Music City, they never seem to get any down in the ritzy part of town. But they sure can put them downtown... where we have a HUGE tourist industry... filled with people who are not from here. Of course, the fact that statistically most tourist are not close by and therefore would be more apt to pay the fine rather than hash out the fact they were basically set up (I have no proof of this, but I do know I have timed some of the downtown lights with my stopwatch function and there are differences in times depending on the time of day... but of course this is all for the safety of the driving population, nothing to see there, move along ATM with leg.... I mean citizen...)

Just like the Drug War... until you remove the money being made, you can hang up getting anything done about this entrapment (that's what it is, as far as I am concerned)
 
2012-06-21 10:42:40 AM
but but but safety!
 
2012-06-21 10:44:16 AM

payattention: I just have a sneaking suspicion that if someone were to do a comprehensive study on the lights where cameras were installed, they would pretty much always find interesting discrepancies with their times. But of course, this will never happen, just as the 'stop-and-frisk' policy in NY is not going to happen. There is just too much money to be made from them.

Then, there is the interesting fact of where they put these cameras. Here in Music City, they never seem to get any down in the ritzy part of town. But they sure can put them downtown... where we have a HUGE tourist industry... filled with people who are not from here. Of course, the fact that statistically most tourist are not close by and therefore would be more apt to pay the fine rather than hash out the fact they were basically set up (I have no proof of this, but I do know I have timed some of the downtown lights with my stopwatch function and there are differences in times depending on the time of day... but of course this is all for the safety of the driving population, nothing to see there, move along ATM with leg.... I mean citizen...)

Just like the Drug War... until you remove the money being made, you can hang up getting anything done about this entrapment (that's what it is, as far as I am concerned)


NPR did a report on this. Not always, but often, the timings of the lights were changed or were already below the recommended standard when they put in the red light cameras.
 
2012-06-21 10:52:05 AM

Misch: Andulamb: Sounds like the issue is not that the yellow light duration is too short for the posted speed limit, but that most drivers are ignoring the posted speed limit. So clearly the fault lies with the yellow light duration?

Yes. The yellow signal timing standard used to involve the actual speed at the 85th percentile for a particular road, but the standard has been weakened in recent years and allowed for the substitution of "local standards" for approach speed (read: speed limit).

Longer yellows and red interstitials save lives.

Don't go to an enforcement solution when you haven't properly implemented the engineering solution first.


Cannot be repeated enough
 
2012-06-21 10:54:17 AM
And then there's Milwaukie, OR's approach. Get authorized to use photo-radar, reduce speed limits below state-mandated levels, collect $2 million a year. Oh, and don't allow traffic school.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-06-21 10:58:01 AM
Here in Music City, they never seem to get any down in the ritzy part of town. But they sure can put them downtown... where we have a HUGE tourist industry... filled with people who are not from here.

Same in Columbus, Ohio. They put cameras around the convention center. I told a convention organizer that's why I wasn't attending. But there are many thousands of others who will go downtown, and the revenue will flow.
 
2012-06-21 11:01:17 AM

LineNoise: I use the crosswalk countdown clock to know if I need to punch it to make the light or not. I really think they are counterproductive.


So you know in advance if you need to punch it or if there's no chance to make the light so you can just coast. That's only counterproductive if your timing is bad so you keep punching it and running the light a couple seconds late anyway. It lets you make the decision to go or stop 10 seconds in advance instead of 2 or 3, and whether you're accelerating or slowing down lets the cars around you know what you're going to do with more warning so they don't have to guess as much. I think they're incredibly useful and should be everywhere.
 
2012-06-21 11:06:44 AM
FTFA: According to NJDOT, only 22 out of 85 intersections were certified with an appropriate yellow signal timing. The law specifies a typical 35 MPH intersection must have at least 3.5 seconds of yellow time, and a 45 MPH intersection would be 4.5 seconds, and so on. Most cities achieve shortened yellow times by posting speed limits far below the actual travel speed of traffic. The law prevents this with a provision specifying that the yellow time can only be set according to the speed at which 85 percent of traffic moves. The net result is that the law mandates significantly longer yellows.

If I am reading this correctly, they're not allowed to ticket drivers for breaking the law by running a red light because 85% of them are already breaking the legal speed limit? WTF?

I can understand (and agree with) halting ticketing if the actual yellow light time does not satisfy the legal requirements, but linking the provision with the actual speed of traffic that is violating the posted speed limit (assuming the posted limit at the intersection is consistent with the limits posted elsewhere on the road) is ridiculous.
 
2012-06-21 11:16:55 AM
I just don't believe it. I refuse to. The government only cares about our well-being. 90% of Fark has told me so. They wouldn't lie to us.

I feel used.
 
2012-06-21 11:25:50 AM

HotWingConspiracy: In Georgia, implementation of the law produced an immediate 80 percent reduction in violations, so much that the state's primary photo ticketing vendor, Lasercraft, was forced to sell its business.

Sorry, Lasercraft. Looks like you didn't grease the right palms.


At least it couldn't have happened to a bigger pot of scum.
 
2012-06-21 11:27:25 AM

Famous Thamas: It might drive me crazy from time to time, but those red interstitials are an excellent idea.


I haven't seen a signal not have a red interstitial since I was living around Utica, NY in 2005. Around here, every signal has a red interstitial. But they've still farked with the yellow timing. The standard has removed clearance intervals and human reaction time.
 
2012-06-21 11:27:48 AM

StrangeQ: HotWingConspiracy: In Georgia, implementation of the law produced an immediate 80 percent reduction in violations, so much that the state's primary photo ticketing vendor, Lasercraft, was forced to sell its business.

Sorry, Lasercraft. Looks like you didn't grease the right palms.

At least it couldn't have happened to a bigger pot of scum.


I would argue maybe second biggest pot of scum in the US... I think full time politicians are the top dogs in scum.
 
2012-06-21 11:39:34 AM
And for all those FARKers who defend red-light cameras, THIS is why they are a bad idea.
 
2012-06-21 11:58:53 AM
So that's what happened. David Chase must have gotten a deal on a redlight camera for that last episode of the Sopran
 
2012-06-21 12:00:07 PM

Mikey1969: HotWingConspiracy: In Georgia, implementation of the law produced an immediate 80 percent reduction in violations, so much that the state's primary photo ticketing vendor, Lasercraft, was forced to sell its business.

Sorry, Lasercraft. Looks like you didn't grease the right palms.

Yeah, the ones in Arizona are set that there have to be a minimum number of violations each minth, or the city pays the difference to Redflex.


Wow, so they've just completely given up on claiming there are no quotas? I mean, it was always obvious BS, but they put on a good front.
 
2012-06-21 12:06:07 PM
Simple solution......schedule maintenance on all lights with cameras and change the duration of the yellow light before the people from weights and measures show up to measure length of yellow light.


Farkers should be fond of the red light cameras......the camera can't search your car and find the drugs and kiddie porn.
 
2012-06-21 12:13:02 PM

wambu: And for all those FARKers who defend red-light cameras, THIS is why they are a bad idea.


Red light cameras are a good idea. The problem is abuse and corruption, i.e. people are jerks. Same as most things, really.
 
2012-06-21 12:16:41 PM

GeeksAreMyPeeps: FTFA: According to NJDOT, only 22 out of 85 intersections were certified with an appropriate yellow signal timing. The law specifies a typical 35 MPH intersection must have at least 3.5 seconds of yellow time, and a 45 MPH intersection would be 4.5 seconds, and so on. Most cities achieve shortened yellow times by posting speed limits far below the actual travel speed of traffic. The law prevents this with a provision specifying that the yellow time can only be set according to the speed at which 85 percent of traffic moves. The net result is that the law mandates significantly longer yellows.

If I am reading this correctly, they're not allowed to ticket drivers for breaking the law by running a red light because 85% of them are already breaking the legal speed limit? WTF?

I can understand (and agree with) halting ticketing if the actual yellow light time does not satisfy the legal requirements, but linking the provision with the actual speed of traffic that is violating the posted speed limit (assuming the posted limit at the intersection is consistent with the limits posted elsewhere on the road) is ridiculous.


Generally, the speed limits are supposed to be set at something like the 85th percentile speed too. So this is still the result of choices made contrary to the interests of public safety and efficiency.

Do you want this stuff set according to what's safe according to widely accepted traffic engineering standards, or by what local municipalities think will make the most revenue?
 
2012-06-21 12:32:06 PM

JesseL: Do you want this stuff set according to what's safe according to widely accepted traffic engineering standards, or by what local municipalities think will make the most revenue?


Traffic engineers? Those Poindexters wouldn't know how to negotiate a sweetheart deal with plenty of kickbacks if the vendor came up and handled them bundles of cash.
 
2012-06-21 12:37:55 PM

GeeksAreMyPeeps: FTFA: According to NJDOT, only 22 out of 85 intersections were certified with an appropriate yellow signal timing. The law specifies a typical 35 MPH intersection must have at least 3.5 seconds of yellow time, and a 45 MPH intersection would be 4.5 seconds, and so on. Most cities achieve shortened yellow times by posting speed limits far below the actual travel speed of traffic. The law prevents this with a provision specifying that the yellow time can only be set according to the speed at which 85 percent of traffic moves. The net result is that the law mandates significantly longer yellows.

If I am reading this correctly, they're not allowed to ticket drivers for breaking the law by running a red light because 85% of them are already breaking the legal speed limit? WTF?

I can understand (and agree with) halting ticketing if the actual yellow light time does not satisfy the legal requirements, but linking the provision with the actual speed of traffic that is violating the posted speed limit (assuming the posted limit at the intersection is consistent with the limits posted elsewhere on the road) is ridiculous.


The end goal is supposed to be safety, not punishment or revenue. If the yellow light time is making it such that 85% of drivers cannot properly stop for a red, the yellow light time is making things less safe and is, therefore, too short. The fact that leaving it thus will increase punishments and revenues should not enter the discussion, especially as a positive.
 
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