Al Leiter and Mitch Williams were on MLB last night, trying to simultaneously argue that putting pine tar on the ball improves your grip, doesn't effect the pitch, isn't really illegal because batters put it on bats, is only technically illegal, everyone does it, you need it to throw breaking stuff on a hot day, and it's no big deal.

They were actually arguing that it wasn't illegal as they were showing footage of the umpires leading Peralta off the mound and confiscating his glove.

The non-pitcher guy on the panel was like: "If it's illegal and it doesn't effect the pitch, why would you do it?" Then Williams, as he often does, went full retard enough to convince me to change the channel.

The Rays need to send him to the minors until he learns to properly charge at the umpires when caught with pine tar.

thomps: chimp_ninja: Al Leiter and Mitch Williams were on MLB last night, trying to simultaneously argue that putting pine tar on the ball improves your grip, doesn't effect the pitch, isn't really illegal because batters put it on bats, is only technically illegal, everyone does it, you need it to throw breaking stuff on a hot day, and it's no big deal.

They were actually arguing that it wasn't illegal as they were showing footage of the umpires leading Peralta off the mound and confiscating his glove.

The non-pitcher guy on the panel was like: "If it's illegal and it doesn't effect the pitch, why would you do it?" Then Williams, as he often does, went full retard enough to convince me to change the channel.

ha i watched that last night. one of the most incomprehensible segments of television i've seen in years.

That show would be improved if they would occasionally have Joe Carter walk out from stage left and say "Mitch, shut the hell up or I'll ruin your second career too, you 1990's Brad Lidge mother farker. Try not to walk any guys on the way back to your dressing room, mullet."

Twice a show would work for me.

What the heck is Joe Maddon so upset about?

Dafatone: What the heck is Joe Maddon so upset about?

1) His guy got caught cheating
2) Davey Johnson is a hypocritical slimeball

Dafatone: What the heck is Joe Maddon so upset about?

How would Davey Johnson have known about the pine tar before the guy threw a single pitch? Answer: Peralta played for the Nats last year.

Some groups in NY and LA would knife Johnson for pulling shiat like that.

Dafatone: What the heck is Joe Maddon so upset about?

Maddon got the player from the team that he was facing, so that manager clearly knew he did this when he traded him as he was the one to call him out on it before a pitch was even thrown.
/insider trading put Marta Stewart in jail.

lunchinlewis: thecpt: Dafatone: What the heck is Joe Maddon so upset about?

Maddon got the player from the team that he was facing, so that manager clearly knew he did this when he traded him as he was the one to call him out on it before a pitch was even thrown.
/insider trading put Marta Stewart in jail.

Actually Tampa picked him up as a free agent, and he was with them last season too. The Nats let him go after 2010, maybe because he's a jerk.

Ah. Okay, Maddon shouldn't be mad at anyone except Joel and his scouts then. Still kind of dirty of the Nats for know Joel does that.

IlGreven: Dafatone: What the heck is Joe Maddon so upset about?

How would Davey Johnson have known about the pine tar before the guy threw a single pitch? Answer: Peralta played for the Nats last year.

Some groups in NY and LA would knife Johnson for pulling shiat like that.

That's entirely on Peralta. Gee, maybe don't cheat against the guy that knows you cheat. Johnson's under no obligation to stand up and be honest here; he's trying to win.

FreakinB: Dafatone: IlGreven: Dafatone: What the heck is Joe Maddon so upset about?

How would Davey Johnson have known about the pine tar before the guy threw a single pitch? Answer: Peralta played for the Nats last year.

Some groups in NY and LA would knife Johnson for pulling shiat like that.

That's entirely on Peralta. Gee, maybe don't cheat against the guy that knows you cheat. Johnson's under no obligation to stand up and be honest here; he's trying to win.

Completely guessing here, but it seems to me that this is one of those things where a lot of teams could do this to a lot of guys but nobody actually does. If that's the case it's a dick move on Davey's part, even though he's technically right.

Sounds a lot like the first time the Kings made the finals

FreakinB: Dafatone: IlGreven: Dafatone: What the heck is Joe Maddon so upset about?

How would Davey Johnson have known about the pine tar before the guy threw a single pitch? Answer: Peralta played for the Nats last year.

Some groups in NY and LA would knife Johnson for pulling shiat like that.

That's entirely on Peralta. Gee, maybe don't cheat against the guy that knows you cheat. Johnson's under no obligation to stand up and be honest here; he's trying to win.

Completely guessing here, but it seems to me that this is one of those things where a lot of teams could do this to a lot of guys but nobody actually does. If that's the case it's a dick move on Davey's part, even though he's technically right.

Ever since watching Kenny Rogers cheat his way to respectability in the '06 playoffs, I have no sympathy for pitchers who get caught with anything. If you can get away with it, more power to you, but if you get caught, I don't care how/why you got caught.

/Augh, Kenny Rogers.

I'm no pitcher, but don't they usually try to get something slick (greasy) onto the ball -- Vaseline, hair gel, etc? Something sticky/tacky seems like the opposite of that.

bubbaprog: GoodyearPimp: I'm no pitcher, but don't they usually try to get something slick (greasy) onto the ball -- Vaseline, hair gel, etc? Something sticky/tacky seems like the opposite of that.

This. Pine tar does not help a pitcher in any way other than getting a better grip on the ball, and as was explained by numerous sources last night, nearly all pitchers in the majors have pine tar either on their hat or in their glove.

It's like a scuff or a cut on the ball. More grip means more spin, potentially, or something to that affect. Basically, a way to get a different than expected result.

FreakinB: Dafatone: IlGreven: Dafatone: What the heck is Joe Maddon so upset about?

How would Davey Johnson have known about the pine tar before the guy threw a single pitch? Answer: Peralta played for the Nats last year.

Some groups in NY and LA would knife Johnson for pulling shiat like that.

That's entirely on Peralta. Gee, maybe don't cheat against the guy that knows you cheat. Johnson's under no obligation to stand up and be honest here; he's trying to win.

Completely guessing here, but it seems to me that this is one of those things where a lot of teams could do this to a lot of guys but nobody actually does. If that's the case it's a dick move on Davey's part, even though he's technically right.

The even funnier thing, is that later in the game, Maddon challenged the Nat's reliever in the exact same way...only...GASP...he didn't ahve any illegal substances on his glove/hat/hands.

/If everyone really did it, that would be one thing, but obviously not EVERYONE does
//Plus, under the "everyone else cheats, so it is okay for us too" logic train-wreck, nobody would have ever had a problem with performance enhancing drugs in MLB...y'know...because of "unspoken rules" and..."the way baseball has always been"

IlGreven: Dafatone: What the heck is Joe Maddon so upset about?

How would Davey Johnson have known about the pine tar before the guy threw a single pitch? Answer: Peralta played for the Nats last year.

Some groups in NY and LA would knife Johnson for pulling shiat like that.

Hehe, the Yankees and Dodgers both swept the Nationals already this year, so I don't think they are getting that worked up over anything the Nat's would pull.

bubbaprog: This. Pine tar does not help a pitcher in any way other than getting a better grip on the ball, and as was explained by numerous sources last night, nearly all pitchers in the majors have pine tar either on their hat or in their glove.

Apparently the Nats' reliever was not one of them, since he didn't get ejected for violating a rule.

// reminds me of all the people complaining about Ovechkin's curve
// with the roles reversed, of course

What a whiny biatch Joe Maddon has become over the years. His pitcher got caught cheating and he's all "well, we should be allowed to cheat, because other people in the past cheated."

bubbaprog: Pine tar does not help a pitcher in any way other than getting a better grip on the ball

So I suppose a spitball doesn't help a pitcher either. ANY foreign substance on a ball affects the way it travels. That's why it's illegal.

"I'm certain that if [Mattheus] had any inclination to utilize something, it was not going to happen after what had just happened," Maddon said. "But there's no way I could not call him on it after what had happened."

//Happened.

Dafatone: Ever since watching Kenny Rogers cheat his way to respectability in the '06 playoffs, I have no sympathy for pitchers who get caught with anything. If you can get away with it, more power to you, but if you get caught, I don't care how/why you got caught.

I think what you're trying to say is that when a pitcher gambles, he has to know when to walk away and/or run. One might say that as an MLB pitcher, the secret to surviving is knowing what to throw away, and knowing what to keep.

bubbaprog: This. Pine tar does not help a pitcher in any way other than getting a better grip on the ball, and as was explained by numerous sources last night, nearly all pitchers in the majors have pine tar either on their hat or in their glove.

1) That's amazing. If only some major league manager knew that, he could wait for an important game, and then get "nearly all" of the opposing team's pitchers ejected, because rule 8.02(a)(4) is: "The pitcher shall not apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball.", rule 8.02(b) is "The pitcher shall not have on his person, or in his possession, any foreign substance.", and rule 3.02 is "No player shall intentionally discolor or damage the ball by rubbing it with soil, rosin, paraffin, licorice, sand-paper, emery-paper or other foreign substance."

2) They checked the Nats' guy in this game, and he didn't have any.

3) You can't simultaneously say "Pine tar does not help a pitcher in any way" and then throw in "other than getting a better grip on the ball", because an enhanced grip impacts how much rotation the pitcher can impart. It's like saying "Scuffing and cutting the baseball does not help a pitcher in any way, other than imparting additional, unnatural movement to his pitches."

lilbjorn: bubbaprog: Pine tar does not help a pitcher in any way other than getting a better grip on the ball

So I suppose a spitball doesn't help a pitcher either. ANY foreign substance on a ball affects the way it travels. That's why it's illegal.

rosin?

bubbaprog: You got me. You clearly know more than the actual former major league pitchers who all said pine tar is a grip tool, not a ball-movement tool.

Ooh! I can play that card, too!

You clearly know more about the rules than the actual current major league umpire who threw an actual current major league pitcher out of the game for having pine tar on his glove.

Babboonrash: rosin?

Specifically cited in the rules as OK for hands. Actually, it's required that the umpire make "an official rosin bag" available to the pitchers under rule 3.01(f). That's the level of "grip" you're allowed to add. Pine tar goes beyond that.

(Rubbing rosin on the ball directly is grounds for a 10-game suspension.)

chimp_ninja: Dafatone: Ever since watching Kenny Rogers cheat his way to respectability in the '06 playoffs, I have no sympathy for pitchers who get caught with anything. If you can get away with it, more power to you, but if you get caught, I don't care how/why you got caught.

I think what you're trying to say is that when a pitcher gambles, he has to know when to walk away and/or run. One might say that as an MLB pitcher, the secret to surviving is knowing what to throw away, and knowing what to keep.

Gotta know when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em, and when to leave Kenny Rogers and his 8.85 career postseason ERA (at the time) in the pen because you have a rookie by the name of Octavio Dotel who maybe wouldn't walk 3 guys in a third of an inning, including walking in the series-ending run.

thomps: god, you "by the books" baseball nazis are what's ruining the game. if pitchers aren't allowed to smuggle nail files, cork screws, and vasoline onto the mound, we might as well just have robots play the game. it's the human element and it's why we love the game.

It's true.

And you know who else demanded that other people follow rules? That's right, HelpWithFractions.com. Damn them, training children to be future book-faced stat-head learn-jerks who lord their knowledge of magnets over everyone.

After the game, Maddon said his decision to have Mattheus checked was a bit of gamesmanship.

"I'm certain that if [Mattheus] had any inclination to utilize something, it was not going to happen after what had just happened," Maddon said. "But there's no way I could not call him on it after what had happened."

Yeah, that'll show him...he's really regretting getting the opposing pitcher thrown out.

Did Johnson violate an unwritten rule here or something? It's impossible to keep them all straight.

thomps: since george brett has been mentioned, i feel like it's an appropriate time to revisit george brett's great meal.

I met George Brett at Pickle's Pub across from Camden Yards after a game. He looked like an average guy sitting at the bar eating a burger. It was cool, no one was pestering him, but he did sign the door jam when he left.

I know, CSB, but I also got to meet Lefty Grove a few times.

George Brett graduated from the same small high school I went to. He was from the class of '72, I believe... I'm from the class of '87.

lilbjorn: What a whiny biatch Joe Maddon has become over the years. His pitcher got caught cheating and he's all "well, we should be allowed to cheat, because other people in the past cheated."

Well, the go-ahead run was at 5th on what Maddon was insisting on calling it a botched robbery. What actually happened was, his henchmen... took a piece, literally out of...

chimp_ninja: Al Leiter and Mitch Williams were on MLB last night, trying to simultaneously argue that putting pine tar on the ball improves your grip, doesn't effect the pitch, isn't really illegal because batters put it on bats, is only technically illegal, everyone does it, you need it to throw breaking stuff on a hot day, and it's no big deal.

Over the years I've drifted from suspecting to being absolutely convinced that sports media deliberately hires the stupidest people they can find. The guys who actually seem to know what they're talking about are sideshows like Jim Caple, who is paid to write about useless trivia.

It's basically professional trolling. You either get the people outraged at what the "analyst" is saying, or people feeling smart and wanting to write/call in to tell the media how wrong they are. Sports fans love feeling smart, and it's as easy as hiring a talking head stupider than the average person.

GoodyearPimp: I'm no pitcher, but don't they usually try to get something slick (greasy) onto the ball -- Vaseline, hair gel, etc?

Depends on what they want to throw. Curveballs, cutters and sliders require grip to impart spin; pine tar (or scuffing the ball) would be the way to turn a mediocre breaking ball into an "out" pitch. Lubricants like vaseline are used to make the grip slip. You'd do this if you were a fastball pitcher and wanted more movement. Fastballs are thrown with a fast backspin that stabilizes its lateral motion and "flattens" the trajectory (human vision, accustomed to parabolic arcs, actually sees the ball as rising); a slippery ball has less spin and thus has a sinking action. It can also "wobble" as it sinks because the aerodynamics are all farked up. That's a spitball; when effectively thrown it's kinda like a 90mph knuckleball and a very quick way to get ejected. (There is actually one way to legally throw the spitball; it's well known that rain causes breaking balls to stop working -- no grip -- and fastballs become spitballs. It's legal when God does it.)

The thing is, just because a pitcher is doctoring the ball doesn't mean they're good at it. A lot of pitchers are, to put it mildly, morons. They're known to try to cheat based on what they've heard and this guy may very well not know what the fark the pine tar is supposed to do. Or maybe he does; I dunno. One particularly stupid Mariner tried to juice himself by injecting horse steroids into his butt. Thing is, cheating is cheating. A retarded bank robber who locks himself out of his own getaway car still gets charged with a crime.

chimp_ninja: thomps: chimp_ninja: Al Leiter and Mitch Williams were on MLB last night, trying to simultaneously argue that putting pine tar on the ball improves your grip, doesn't effect the pitch, isn't really illegal because batters put it on bats, is only technically illegal, everyone does it, you need it to throw breaking stuff on a hot day, and it's no big deal.

They were actually arguing that it wasn't illegal as they were showing footage of the umpires leading Peralta off the mound and confiscating his glove.

The non-pitcher guy on the panel was like: "If it's illegal and it doesn't effect the pitch, why would you do it?" Then Williams, as he often does, went full retard enough to convince me to change the channel.

ha i watched that last night. one of the most incomprehensible segments of television i've seen in years.

That show would be improved if they would occasionally have Joe Carter walk out from stage left and say "Mitch, shut the hell up or I'll ruin your second career too, you 1990's Brad Lidge mother farker. Try not to walk any guys on the way back to your dressing room, mullet."

Twice a show would work for me.

And this is why I have you favorited

Time for Joel to pull out Joe Niekro's Nail File to scoff the ball.