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(Fox News)   You and I are not the only ones to find Congress utterly contemptible   (foxnews.com) divider line 79
    More: Hero, Republican, House Oversight, contempt, arms industries, oversight, contempt of Congress, GOP Rep. Darrell Issa, Furious  
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4632 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Jun 2012 at 11:02 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-20 10:19:17 AM
Holder is in Congress? NOWAI
 
2012-06-20 10:30:51 AM
Be careful, GOP. Don't be too willing to pierce the "Executive Priveledge" vail...it could come back to bite you later.

..not that EP is necessarily a good thing to begin with.
 
2012-06-20 10:33:09 AM
Oh, another article about the same thing we've already discussed, with nothing new having happened, and a shiatty headline to boot. What' NOT to green?
 
2012-06-20 10:35:02 AM
I'm a bit lost here on what the Attorney General is withholding from the committee that's driving the contempt vote. The Fox News article doesn't clarify what the issues are exactly.

So, is this a political game by Republicans in the House to keep the White House under perpetual investigation as during the Clinton Administration? Or, is there legitimate reasoning why the committee needs more documents? Or, are they just deliberately pushing the envelope to embarrass the President before the election?

/Playing those mind games, oh yeah.
 
2012-06-20 10:53:01 AM
Headline /Tag= Fail
 
2012-06-20 11:05:32 AM
They can throw a hissy fit all they want, they don't have the legal standing to force Holder to do anything more than he already has done. They don't have direct oversight over his actions.
 
2012-06-20 11:08:01 AM

AirForceVet: I'm a bit lost here on what the Attorney General is withholding from the committee that's driving the contempt vote. The Fox News article doesn't clarify what the issues are exactly.

So, is this a political game by Republicans in the House to keep the White House under perpetual investigation as during the Clinton Administration? Or, is there legitimate reasoning why the committee needs more documents? Or, are they just deliberately pushing the envelope to embarrass the President before the election?

/Playing those mind games, oh yeah.


The article was vague but I'm guessing what's driving the contempt charge may be the documents now under exec priv.
 
2012-06-20 11:09:24 AM
Must be a mistake. Obama hates the use of executive privilege:

Link
 
2012-06-20 11:10:26 AM
politicsoffthegrid.files.wordpress.com

GOP did not have an issue last time an AG was being obstinate
 
2012-06-20 11:12:07 AM

AirForceVet: Or, are they just deliberately pushing the envelope to embarrass the President before the election?


Less about embarrassing Obama and more about fanning the conspiracy theorist flames of the Republican base and especially the NRA.
 
2012-06-20 11:12:38 AM

AirForceVet: I'm a bit lost here on what the Attorney General is withholding from the committee that's driving the contempt vote. The Fox News article doesn't clarify what the issues are exactly.

So, is this a political game by Republicans in the House to keep the White House under perpetual investigation as during the Clinton Administration? Or, is there legitimate reasoning why the committee needs more documents? Or, are they just deliberately pushing the envelope to embarrass the President before the election?

/Playing those mind games, oh yeah.


Congress is trying to determine who botched what. Holder is refusing to hand over documents concerning who authorized and had knowledge of the program.
 
2012-06-20 11:14:27 AM
So BHO is exerting executive privilege over document he has supposedly NEVER seen?

This will end...interestingly
 
2012-06-20 11:16:07 AM

LasersHurt: Oh, another article about the same thing we've already discussed, with nothing new having happened, and a shiatty headline to boot. What' NOT to green?


i guess you didn't read tfa. they aren't giving up the documents because obama gave them executive privilege.

that's a game-changer. an election year game-changer.
 
2012-06-20 11:16:13 AM

Welfare Xmas: So BHO is exerting executive privilege over document he has supposedly NEVER seen?

This will end...interestingly


Especially since quite a few members of the GOP house aren't real sure they want "investigated the AG instead of working on jobs" as their crowning achievement come election time.
 
2012-06-20 11:17:43 AM

TofuTheAlmighty: AirForceVet: Or, are they just deliberately pushing the envelope to embarrass the President before the election?

Less about embarrassing Obama and more about fanning the conspiracy theorist flames of the Republican base and especially the NRA.


A conspiracy theory suggests assumptions.

F&F has been busted pretty wide open. The US allowed Mexican Cartels to buy weapons in the US illegally. The only question is "why".

Considering the only the charges filed have been against the straw buyers and it involved crimes committed that they could have been busted for on day one, well it does raise some questions about intent.
 
2012-06-20 11:19:04 AM

Mrbogey: AirForceVet: I'm a bit lost here on what the Attorney General is withholding from the committee that's driving the contempt vote. The Fox News article doesn't clarify what the issues are exactly.

So, is this a political game by Republicans in the House to keep the White House under perpetual investigation as during the Clinton Administration? Or, is there legitimate reasoning why the committee needs more documents? Or, are they just deliberately pushing the envelope to embarrass the President before the election?

/Playing those mind games, oh yeah.

Congress is trying to determine who botched what. Holder is refusing to hand over documents concerning who authorized and had knowledge of the program.


And this is a legit scandal. I don't care if someone is Democrat or Republican in this. A decision to allow guns to be sold to Mexican drug cartels by the thousands and allowing said cartels to cross the borders with the guns was going to accomplish what, exactly? What were we going to learn from these gun sales? That drug cartels are bad? That they were going to use them to kidnap and massacre people down in Mexico? WE FARKING KNEW THAT!

The person who greenlit and approved of Fast & Furious is downright retarded.
 
2012-06-20 11:20:25 AM
Holder, in his letter to Obama, said those documents pertain to the "deliberative process" on how to respond to congressional and media inquiries.

from this, i would guess that these documents pertain to "how are we gonna cover our asses"
 
2012-06-20 11:20:34 AM

colon_pow: LasersHurt: Oh, another article about the same thing we've already discussed, with nothing new having happened, and a shiatty headline to boot. What' NOT to green?

i guess you didn't read tfa. they aren't giving up the documents because obama gave them executive privilege.

that's a game-changer. an election year game-changer.


I guess I didn't. I still think the headline is dumb.

I dunno about "election year game-changer," but we'll see.
 
2012-06-20 11:25:09 AM
Issa, a criminal that declared the Obama admin "the most corrupt" before actually investigating anything, thinks he finally, FINALLY found something he can use and is going to face plant.
 
2012-06-20 11:27:22 AM

Dog Welder: And this is a legit scandal. I don't care if someone is Democrat or Republican in this. A decision to allow guns to be sold to Mexican drug cartels by the thousands and allowing said cartels to cross the borders with the guns was going to accomplish what, exactly? What were we going to learn from these gun sales? That drug cartels are bad? That they were going to use them to kidnap and massacre people down in Mexico? WE FARKING KNEW THAT!

The person who greenlit and approved of Fast & Furious is downright retarded.


It was part of a broader program that started in 2006. There is no way the GOP would let something go for 6 years and then decide to investigate it for their political gain, that just isn't possible...
 
2012-06-20 11:28:19 AM

Mrbogey: A conspiracy theory suggests assumptions.


Huh?

Republican congressmen have explicitly stated, all evidence on the contrary, that F&F was conjured to gin up support for gun control and confiscation. That is lunacy.

Mrbogey: F&F has been busted pretty wide open. The US allowed Mexican Cartels to buy weapons in the US illegally. The only question is "why".


Those who object most strenuously to restrictions on gun sales have been the first to strenuously object that these gun sales weren't restricted.
 
2012-06-20 11:30:36 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Issa, a criminal that declared the Obama admin "the most corrupt" before actually investigating anything, thinks he finally, FINALLY found something he can use and is going to face plant.


You and i disagree on alot of topics I think, but I'll agree with you that Issa is a world class d-bag and share your desire to see him face plant.
 
2012-06-20 11:35:08 AM

Mighty Taternuts: Dog Welder: And this is a legit scandal. I don't care if someone is Democrat or Republican in this. A decision to allow guns to be sold to Mexican drug cartels by the thousands and allowing said cartels to cross the borders with the guns was going to accomplish what, exactly? What were we going to learn from these gun sales? That drug cartels are bad? That they were going to use them to kidnap and massacre people down in Mexico? WE FARKING KNEW THAT!

The person who greenlit and approved of Fast & Furious is downright retarded.

It was part of a broader program that started in 2006. There is no way the GOP would let something go for 6 years and then decide to investigate it for their political gain, that just isn't possible...


Actually this may come as a shock, but that's untrue. You may as well say it's part of a program started in the 18th century in Philadelphia if you're going to claim that similar programs that preceded it are the same. The particular program and its methods were fairly recent. Earlier programs tracked the guns and were joint efforts to try and prevent gu s from getting across the border.
 
2012-06-20 11:35:09 AM
The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver in September 2009 and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded.

This is a witch hunt. F&F type of "gunwalking" started under the Bush administration (yes, it's all Bush's fault). Sure, the program was ill conceived and has never worked, but Rs are only dragging it through the mud because there is a black D in the White House.
 
2012-06-20 11:37:48 AM
From the other thread:

Look, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Contempt of Congress against a sitting Attorney General of the United States is about as toothless a censure as you can get.

When Congress votes to put an Attorney General in contempt of Congress, the next step in the procedure is that they will have to go to the Attorney General that they just voted to be in contempt of Congress and ask him nicely for a special prosecutor to investigate himself. The Attorney General would appoint a special prosecutor who would dick around for 2 or 3 years and then release a statement that it's dropping the investigation for lack of information of wrongdoing.
 
2012-06-20 11:39:23 AM

tangentman: The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver in September 2009 and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded.

This is a witch hunt. F&F type of "gunwalking" started under the Bush administration (yes, it's all Bush's fault). Sure, the program was ill conceived and has never worked, but Rs are only dragging it through the mud because there is a black D in the White House.


and a BP officer got killed....
but that's nothing, compared to the blatant racism.
 
2012-06-20 11:39:54 AM

TofuTheAlmighty: Mrbogey: A conspiracy theory suggests assumptions.

Huh?

Republican congressmen have explicitly stated, all evidence on the contrary, that F&F was conjured to gin up support for gun control and confiscation. That is lunacy.

Mrbogey: F&F has been busted pretty wide open. The US allowed Mexican Cartels to buy weapons in the US illegally. The only question is "why".

Those who object most strenuously to restrictions on gun sales have been the first to strenuously object that these gun sales weren't restricted.


you should read up more on this scandal. Prior to its revealing the guns were cited by the DOJ in support of more restrictions.

Also the dealers didn't trust the buyers and were initially going to refuse some of the sales. The govt told them to sell them the weapons. They'd ensure they were arrested before they could be sold.

Its rather bizarre, the govt screwed up and people died. What gives on the defense of their screw-up?
 
2012-06-20 11:42:11 AM

colon_pow: and a BP officer got killed....


It's cool, guns don't kill people.
 
2012-06-20 11:43:54 AM

Mighty Taternuts: It was part of a broader program that started in 2006. There is no way the GOP would let something go for 6 years and then decide to investigate it for their political gain, that just isn't possible...


How's that grape kool-aid? Nice and refreshing?

Okay, now for the facts...

There was a 'similar' program during the Bush administration in much the same way that it's 'similar' when undercover police officers pretend to sell drugs then arrest the people that buy them, or when the FBI pretends to sell explosives to terrorists...

Like the OWS people...

And it turns out that those explosives aren't real.

And here's how they would be 'similar'... Police would have actually let large quantities of drugs out on the streets where somebody would overdose, the FBI would actually sell real live explosives to terrorists

Like the OWS people...

And somebody would die in the explosion.

Do you get it now? Pretending to sell guns to drug dealers in Mexico but never actually letting them get the guns is not quite the same as actually letting them have the guns, and lots of them.

But when you're Eric Holder and you want to create a crisis to take advantage of then doing it that way makes perfect sense. I mean how else are you going to chip away at the 2nd Amendment if you don't have a crisis to do it with?
 
2012-06-20 11:45:33 AM

randomjsa: But when you're Eric Holder and you want to create a crisis to take advantage of then doing it that way makes perfect sense. I mean how else are you going to chip away at the 2nd Amendment if you don't have a crisis to do it with?


Remember guys, this whole thing is in no way based on and inspired by a crackpot conspiracy theory.
 
2012-06-20 11:47:08 AM

colon_pow: and a BP officer got killed....

Mrbogey: the govt screwed up and people died


HotWingConspiracy: It's cool, guns don't kill people.


Oh, if only right-wingers didn't actively seek the nectar of cognitive dissonance.
 
2012-06-20 11:49:06 AM
So is something actually going to happen when Holder gets put in contempt, or is this just going to lead to several more months of bickering?

I'm leaning towards the latter. WTF.
 
2012-06-20 11:53:35 AM

Mexican Jew Lizard: So is something actually going to happen when Holder gets put in contempt, or is this just going to lead to several more months of bickering?

I'm leaning towards the latter. WTF.


No. After Holder gets put in contempt, then Congress has to ask Holder to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate himself.
 
2012-06-20 11:56:42 AM

Mrbogey: Actually this may come as a shock, but that's untrue.


All the articles I have seen link F and F to Wide Receiver and Project Gunrunner. How are they functionally different?

randomjsa: Okay, now for the facts...

There was a 'similar' program during the Bush administration in much the same way that it's 'similar' when undercover police officers pretend to sell drugs then arrest the people that buy them, or when the FBI pretends to sell explosives to terrorists...


As tangentman said:

tangentman: The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver in September 2009 and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded.


Which is why I find your koolaid comment laughable.
 
2012-06-20 11:59:03 AM

TofuTheAlmighty: colon_pow: and a BP officer got killed....
Mrbogey: the govt screwed up and people died

HotWingConspiracy: It's cool, guns don't kill people.

Oh, if only right-wingers didn't actively seek the nectar of cognitive dissonance.


where's the cognitive dissonance? Nobody said its kosher to knowingly sell a criminal guns. you clearly don't understand the axiom.
 
2012-06-20 12:02:21 PM
Executive Privilege.

SUCK IT REPUBS
 
2012-06-20 12:02:50 PM
i18.photobucket.com
Lighten up, contards.
You'll get over it.
 
2012-06-20 12:04:15 PM

Mighty Taternuts: Mrbogey: Actually this may come as a shock, but that's untrue.

All the articles I have seen link F and F to Wide Receiver and Project Gunrunner. How are they functionally different?

randomjsa: Okay, now for the facts...

There was a 'similar' program during the Bush administration in much the same way that it's 'similar' when undercover police officers pretend to sell drugs then arrest the people that buy them, or when the FBI pretends to sell explosives to terrorists...

As tangentman said:

tangentman: The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver in September 2009 and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded.

Which is why I find your koolaid comment laughable.


OWR was a joint effort with Mexico. They also placed trackers in the guns. Once the program was found to be a failure(roughly 200 guns into it) they shut it down. F&F revived the program, removed all the tracking, involved over 10 times the number of weapons.

And those indictments. Look them up. Not the shining example that justifies the methods.
 
2012-06-20 12:07:11 PM

Mrbogey: OWR was a joint effort with Mexico. They also placed trackers in the guns. Once the program was found to be a failure(roughly 200 guns into it) they shut it down. F&F revived the program, removed all the tracking, involved over 10 times the number of weapons.


They also failed to mention F & F to the Mexicans, but hey as long as there is a "D" after the names involved it's ok that people were killed.
 
2012-06-20 12:10:56 PM

RexTalionis: Mexican Jew Lizard: So is something actually going to happen when Holder gets put in contempt, or is this just going to lead to several more months of bickering?

I'm leaning towards the latter. WTF.

No. After Holder gets put in contempt, then Congress has to ask Holder to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate himself.


Oh, that should be special.

I myself fall in the "let the heads of those who approved this roll" crowd, but this is just going to lead to a lot of football punting and witch-hunting. That this happened is indefensible, but I think a little more is needed to directly link Holder to this. If so, let him go I say.

Also, anyone catch Kirsten Powers tweeting on this issue? She is actually calling the GOP on the selective outrage towards Executive Privilege during the Bush years (she is against it regardless of who uses it apparently.). Naturally, a few people have called her a left wing dingbat :P. ODS anyone?
 
2012-06-20 12:11:14 PM

TofuTheAlmighty: AirForceVet: Or, are they just deliberately pushing the envelope to embarrass the President before the election?

Less about embarrassing Obama and more about fanning the conspiracy theorist flames of the Republican base and especially the NRA.


Holder could have been personnally handing guns out to every drug lord in Mexico and the NRA shouldn't complain. Aren't they the ones who tell us, 'guns don't kill, people do', for the last 30 years? If the cartels didn't get their guns through fast 'n furious then they would have gotten them elsewhere. These are undeniable truths and why any measure to control the flow of guns is wrong in the eyes of God.
 
2012-06-20 12:12:08 PM
Obama lied and people died!
 
2012-06-20 12:14:42 PM
Okay, one thing before I go teach:

Could somebody explain to me why this "guns don't kill people" line keeps getting brought up in these discussions? Is it something the NRA/conservatives/Republicans said that is somehow a counterpoint or hypocrisy when it comes to this? I'd honestly like to understand the argument that comes with that line.
 
2012-06-20 12:16:36 PM

Mrbogey: OWR was a joint effort with Mexico. They also placed trackers in the guns. Once the program was found to be a failure(roughly 200 guns into it) they shut it down. F&F revived the program, removed all the tracking, involved over 10 times the number of weapons.


So I said F&F was part of OWR and Gunwalker you said I was wrong, so you are saying it is a continuation? I do not see why you are making that distinction. Other articles point out that the tactics used were not chosen by anyone higher than people in ATF. Which would mean this is simply a witch hunt on a botched operation.

Mrbogey: where's the cognitive dissonance? Nobody said its kosher to knowingly sell a criminal guns. you clearly don't understand the axiom.


I believe he is alluding to the mantra of "guns don't kill people" where it seems that people are making this a scandal because the guns did in fact kill someone.
 
2012-06-20 12:17:59 PM

Mexican Jew Lizard: Could somebody explain to me why this "guns don't kill people" line keeps getting brought up in these discussions? Is it something the NRA/conservatives/Republicans said that is somehow a counterpoint or hypocrisy when it comes to this? I'd honestly like to understand the argument that comes with that line.


Constantly saying that guns don't kill people and then blaming guns on killing someone (the BP agent) is hypocrisy.
 
2012-06-20 12:26:22 PM

Muta: TofuTheAlmighty: AirForceVet: Or, are they just deliberately pushing the envelope to embarrass the President before the election?

Less about embarrassing Obama and more about fanning the conspiracy theorist flames of the Republican base and especially the NRA.

Holder could have been personnally handing guns out to every drug lord in Mexico and the NRA shouldn't complain. Aren't they the ones who tell us, 'guns don't kill, people do', for the last 30 years? If the cartels didn't get their guns through fast 'n furious then they would have gotten them elsewhere. These are undeniable truths and why any measure to control the flow of guns is wrong in the eyes of God.


Thinking must hurt you, it's ok you tried
 
2012-06-20 12:48:29 PM
Obama has just asserted executive privilege on these documents. I can't believe he'd wade into this pile of shiat. Holder needs to go. If Obama is impeding the investigation, he needs to go, too. I'll vote for Biden and sleep at night.
 
2012-06-20 12:54:19 PM

Rent Party: Obama has just asserted executive privilege on these documents. I can't believe he'd wade into this pile of shiat.


I can. fark Issa.
 
2012-06-20 12:57:22 PM
Holder is a corrupt POS.

Obama stepping in just solidifies he was involved and knew what was going on.

Both should be sent home or in jail.
 
2012-06-20 01:01:03 PM

vegasj: Holder is a corrupt POS.

Obama stepping in just solidifies he was involved and knew what was going on.

Both should be sent home or in jail.


Guilty until proven innocent, the American way.
 
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