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(Huffington Post)   News: Someone finally asks Jamie Dimon a hard-hitting question at a congressional hearing. Fark: A janitor   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 94
    More: Weird, Jamie Dimon, congressional hearing, child rape  
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4477 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Jun 2012 at 10:17 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-20 10:17:51 AM  
Better than a Joe the Plumber.
 
2012-06-20 10:19:42 AM  
Bankers do not have to answer the questions of lowly serfs. What else did you expect?
 
2012-06-20 10:21:01 AM  
FTFA: The union is pressing for a contract that will raise the janitors' pay to $10 per hour over the course of three years.

In before "GREEDY UNIONS!"
 
2012-06-20 10:21:56 AM  
Weird? I'd assume HERO tag was too busy kissing Dimon's ass.
 
2012-06-20 10:22:00 AM  
Jamie Dimon must be a Republican hero.
 
2012-06-20 10:22:16 AM  
Hey, at least someone talked to him.
 
2012-06-20 10:23:44 AM  
Anyone who thinks that anyone in congress is going to make an enemy out of the majority of Wall Street is delusional. With the exception of someone like Frank, Grayson, or Feingold and look where they are.

They not only have to not ask tough questions, and not only have to not enact and enforce regulation, but they are required to administer constant stroking as well.

I couldn't watch the Senate hearing for fear of vomiting.
 
2012-06-20 10:23:47 AM  
Pretty ballsy. He could have turned this in to a classy moment for himself, but it's pretty obvious that he doesn't give a single fark.
 
2012-06-20 10:23:56 AM  
"Call my office."

When I typed that into google translate (Rich Businessman -> English) it came back with the response, "Fark off. I don't want to talk to you, and you'll never talk to me again." The grammar even seems correct, which is odd for a translation program.
 
2012-06-20 10:24:31 AM  
Congress members don't understand finance, they don't know what to ask. Most just want to get their tv moment looking tough and then they leave.
 
2012-06-20 10:25:13 AM  
SEIU plant of course. Hence her ability to get from Houston to DC despite not earning a living wage.

I'd imagine the company could fire another janitor, bring this one up to 8 hours a day and pay her benefits. Of course the union would have a fit over that too. It's the Catch-22 of unions. More staff means more votes and more power. It also means lower wages since you split the work over more warm bodies.

Of course all that does nothing to distract from the main problem of consolidation of wealth.
 
2012-06-20 10:27:04 AM  
So she confronted someone she doesn't work for and asked why someone else doesn't pay her enough, and he wasn't receptive?
 
2012-06-20 10:27:50 AM  
Whatever... I'd like to see that janitor lose 7 billion dollars.
 
2012-06-20 10:29:46 AM  
"Despite making billions last year, why do you deny the people cleaning your buildings a living wage?"

"Call my office"

next day...

"Hello, this is Janitor Vasquez..."

"Because fark you, thats why"
 
2012-06-20 10:32:01 AM  
Janitor - "why can't I have a living wage"

conservative economist - "well you see, market price, blah blah blah, minimum wage causes unemployment blah blah blah"

college graduate who took one year of economics "you know, I took econ 100, and the economist is totally right."

And in the meantime, JP morgan's traders lose billions of dollars of investment money while continuing to make millions of dollars every year, including bonuses.

I'd like to see that explained by the economist's "markets are rational" approach.
 
2012-06-20 10:34:30 AM  

Crewmannumber6: So she confronted someone she doesn't work for and asked why someone else doesn't pay her enough, and he wasn't receptive?


Yeah, that is a beneficial arragement between the Chase and the building management.

Chase gets to put is name on the building, pay another company for all management of it, and then if anything looks bad, deny any connection with the problem. The management company then gets to blame Chase for being tough in contracts and not wanting to pay enough in leasing fees and what not to properly pay the maintenance staff. So when the top cat at Chase and the top dog at Houton Property Management see the janitor, they just get to point fingers at each other as they make their way to Del Frisco's to have dinner together.
 
2012-06-20 10:34:32 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Pretty ballsy. He could have turned this in to a classy moment for himself, but it's pretty obvious that he doesn't give a single fark.


Exactly what I was thinking, though, now that it's out in the press, I bet you at least JPMorgan does something to at least SEEM caring/compassionate/fair/human.

Perhaps, though, this needed to happen and be publicized. People need to start taking it to the executives and making public spectacle of their disinterest in anything but the bottom line.

/Season 1 : Public embarassment
// Season 2 : Guillotines?
 
2012-06-20 10:35:18 AM  
She handled that inappropriately. To fly all that way and ask him that question shows what little she knows about the world of high finance, and she should be ashamed. Everyone knows that if you're making 8 bucks an hour and you want to talk to someone as important as Mr. Dimon, you have to start the conversation by throwing a brick at him. That gets his attention, make him more receptive to conversation, and reminds him that he is, in the end, still a carbon-based life form that is susceptible to heavy flying objects from unexpected places.
 
2012-06-20 10:37:41 AM  

wingnut396: Crewmannumber6: So she confronted someone she doesn't work for and asked why someone else doesn't pay her enough, and he wasn't receptive?

Yeah, that is a beneficial arragement between the Chase and the building management.

Chase gets to put is name on the building, pay another company for all management of it, and then if anything looks bad, deny any connection with the problem. The management company then gets to blame Chase for being tough in contracts and not wanting to pay enough in leasing fees and what not to properly pay the maintenance staff. So when the top cat at Chase and the top dog at Houton Property Management see the janitor, they just get to point fingers at each other as they make their way to Del Frisco's to have dinner together.


That's all well and good but doesn't change the fact the SHE DOESN'T WORK FOR THEM!!!!!!
 
2012-06-20 10:38:39 AM  
She should have asked him:

"If you make $23,000,000 per year, that works out to (assuming a 50-hour work week and 52 weeks/year) $8,846.15 and change per hour. You're honestly telling me that you work 1,059x harder, or provide 1,059x more value, or need 1,059x more than I do to survive? You're telling me you couldn't drop your pay to $7,000ish/hour to pay 1,000 janitors a measly $1.65 more per hour?

REALLY?"

Of course the GOP would answer for him: "Yes, yes, yes and no. Hang on, Mr D, let me get more lube for you. The peons' interruption seems to have startled you a bit."
 
2012-06-20 10:40:20 AM  
During the hearing, the janitors' cause was briefly taken up by Rep. Al Green (D-Texas), who represents Houston. With all the discussion about "too big to fail," Green told Dimon that he wanted to talk to him about a concept he called "too small to live off."

"In Houston, Texas, we have some persons who are janitors and they are paid $8.35 an hour. This is very small compared to what we've been talking about," Green said, noting JPMorgan Chase's net income of $19 billion in 2011.


The Representative then added, "I'm.... still in loooove with you..." and seduced Dimon within seconds.
 
2012-06-20 10:42:51 AM  

Sun Worshiping Dog Launcher: She handled that inappropriately. To fly all that way and ask him that question shows what little she knows about the world of high finance, and she should be ashamed. Everyone knows that if you're making 8 bucks an hour and you want to talk to someone as important as Mr. Dimon, you have to start the conversation by throwing a brick at him. That gets his attention, make him more receptive to conversation, and reminds him that he is, in the end, still a carbon-based life form that is susceptible to heavy flying objects from unexpected places.


Oh, Its BRICKS. And here I was throwing bottles and bits of pipe. No wonder I always got funny looks. Ive been unfashionable.
 
2012-06-20 10:43:49 AM  
Maybe she should talk to her employer if she wants a raise instead of a customer of her employer.
 
2012-06-20 10:48:11 AM  
So an employee of a company that is contracted by another company that owns the building that rents to JP Morgan thinks the CEO of JP Morgan is the appropriate person to complain about wages? Seriously?

I don't blame her, but rather those who encouraged her to be a grandstanding attention whore.

Very embarrassing for her, the SEIU, and her defenders.
 
2012-06-20 10:49:51 AM  
The question: "DID YOU farkING FLUSH PAPER TOWELS? WHY THE HELL DID YOU DO THAT? They don't dissolve and back up the plumbing. Oh, now I have to reach in and scoop out your paper towels and shiat. Sir, you are an ignorant asshole. "

When I hear about people working for minimum wage when they're well into their adult years I wonder why. One school of thought is that a minimum wage job is supposed to be entry level to adulthood, and the other is that the peasants would work for $2 an hour if we let the employers go that low. I don't work for minimum wage, I won't work for minimum wage. Now that I'm in my thirties I have a skill set that means I can do things, valuable things, even if it's not directly related to my education.

/Excuse me, I just had an idea for a robot janitor design I need to provisional patent and sell to iRobot.
//Then you could pay the remaining janitor twice as much to service them
 
2012-06-20 10:50:38 AM  
At least one person in the room was there to represent the people.
 
2012-06-20 10:51:20 AM  

Dr Dreidel: She should have asked him:

"If you make $23,000,000 per year, that works out to (assuming a 50-hour work week and 52 weeks/year) $8,846.15 and change per hour. You're honestly telling me that you work 1,059x harder, or provide 1,059x more value, or need 1,059x more than I do to survive? You're telling me you couldn't drop your pay to $7,000ish/hour to pay 1,000 janitors a measly $1.65 more per hour?

REALLY?"

Of course the GOP would answer for him: "Yes, yes, yes and no. Hang on, Mr D, let me get more lube for you. The peons' interruption seems to have startled you a bit."


To which he could respond: "that's how much my employers value my labor. How much is your labor worth to your employer?"
 
2012-06-20 10:51:56 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: So an employee of a company that is contracted by another company that owns the building that rents to JP Morgan thinks the CEO of JP Morgan is the appropriate person to complain about wages? Seriously?

I don't blame her, but rather those who encouraged her to be a grandstanding attention whore.

Very embarrassing for her, the SEIU, and her defenders.


It's embarrassing when your publicity stunt works? I'd say sneaking a question to the CEO of JP Morgan a question during a congressional hearing is actually wildly successful, as publicity stunts go.

Would we be talking about it right now if she'd asked the correct person? Not a chance.
 
2012-06-20 10:55:44 AM  

Chummer45: Janitor - "why can't I have a living wage"

conservative economist - "well you see, market price, blah blah blah, minimum wage causes unemployment blah blah blah"

college graduate who took one year of economics "you know, I took econ 100, and the economist is totally right."

And in the meantime, JP morgan's traders lose billions of dollars of investment money while continuing to make millions of dollars every year, including bonuses.

I'd like to see that explained by the economist's "markets are rational" approach.


I believe the reply would be similar to the economist and the college econ student, and it would be an articulate version of "I GOT MINE SO FUUUUUUUUUHHHHHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUKYOOOOOOOOOO."
 
2012-06-20 10:56:04 AM  

Crewmannumber6: wingnut396: Crewmannumber6: So she confronted someone she doesn't work for and asked why someone else doesn't pay her enough, and he wasn't receptive?

Yeah, that is a beneficial arragement between the Chase and the building management.

Chase gets to put is name on the building, pay another company for all management of it, and then if anything looks bad, deny any connection with the problem. The management company then gets to blame Chase for being tough in contracts and not wanting to pay enough in leasing fees and what not to properly pay the maintenance staff. So when the top cat at Chase and the top dog at Houton Property Management see the janitor, they just get to point fingers at each other as they make their way to Del Frisco's to have dinner together.

That's all well and good but doesn't change the fact the SHE DOESN'T WORK FOR THEM!!!!!!


Not directly no. People that work for crappy subcontractors that pretty well only supply services to a single company should never address those greviences to the ultimate boss, is that your main beef?
 
2012-06-20 10:56:14 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: To which he could respond: "that's how much my employers value my labor. How much is your labor worth to your employer?"


I imagine it takes some real value of labor to lose $2 billion in risky derivatives. The man should get a raise.
 
2012-06-20 10:58:40 AM  

ha-ha-guy: SEIU plant of course. Hence her ability to get from Houston to DC despite not earning a living wage.

I'd imagine the company could fire another janitor, bring this one up to 8 hours a day and pay her benefits. Of course the union would have a fit over that too. It's the Catch-22 of unions. More staff means more votes and more power. It also means lower wages since you split the work over more warm bodies.


8/10. Docked one point for failure to use the keyword "thug." Solid effort.
 
2012-06-20 10:59:21 AM  

I alone am best: Maybe she should talk to her employer if she wants a raise instead of a customer of her employer.


I understand the emotional appeal of a single mom and mother of 3 working for $8.35 an hour wanting to make more money when the place she works sees billions in profit. I mean, they can't afford to give her some of those billions? JP Morgan doesn't own the building. The owners of the building contract a management company to run the building. The management company likely bid their services to get the contract to run the building. The management company pays her a competitive wage for what amounts to unskilled labor and they need to maintain a profit to stay in business and remain competitive. Even if the union gets $10 an hour, I can't see how it's going to help this woman out as she's only working 25 hours a week (which amounts to a little more than $10k a year).

A better question would have been, "Can you help me improve my education/skills so I can make a living wage?"
 
2012-06-20 10:59:23 AM  

wingnut396: Crewmannumber6: wingnut396: Crewmannumber6: So she confronted someone she doesn't work for and asked why someone else doesn't pay her enough, and he wasn't receptive?

Yeah, that is a beneficial arragement between the Chase and the building management.

Chase gets to put is name on the building, pay another company for all management of it, and then if anything looks bad, deny any connection with the problem. The management company then gets to blame Chase for being tough in contracts and not wanting to pay enough in leasing fees and what not to properly pay the maintenance staff. So when the top cat at Chase and the top dog at Houton Property Management see the janitor, they just get to point fingers at each other as they make their way to Del Frisco's to have dinner together.

That's all well and good but doesn't change the fact the SHE DOESN'T WORK FOR THEM!!!!!!

Not directly no. People that work for crappy subcontractors that pretty well only supply services to a single company should never address those greviences to the ultimate boss, is that your main beef?


They definitely shouldn't try to attract attention by doing it in a high-profile public venue. I mean, what's she trying to do? Increase public awareness?
 
2012-06-20 11:01:40 AM  
We can't possibly talk about income inequality and working people making enough to live on versus executives making ridiculous levels of compensation. Because there's a contract that makes her employment one step removed from his company.

Really? That's the argument many are trotting out here? Forests, trees, and then there are people who can't get their nose out of the bear's butt.
 
2012-06-20 11:03:37 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Dr Dreidel: She should have asked him:

"If you make $23,000,000 per year, that works out to (assuming a 50-hour work week and 52 weeks/year) $8,846.15 and change per hour. You're honestly telling me that you work 1,059x harder, or provide 1,059x more value, or need 1,059x more than I do to survive? You're telling me you couldn't drop your pay to $7,000ish/hour to pay 1,000 janitors a measly $1.65 more per hour?

REALLY?"

Of course the GOP would answer for him: "Yes, yes, yes and no. Hang on, Mr D, let me get more lube for you. The peons' interruption seems to have startled you a bit."

To which he could respond: "that's how much my employers value my labor. How much is your labor worth to your employer?"


And she could say: "That wasn't the question I asked, moron, so I'll just pretend you agree with me. Apparently, $23m/year doesn't teach language comprehension. Good luck next quarter; I hope your computers don't glitch up and lose your investors 4-5x your yearly salary again. Thanks for being 'worth it', boss."

And then we (that is, you and I) can have a separate debate about how crappily The Market values labor. That ought to be a hoot.
 
2012-06-20 11:05:40 AM  
Did he explain to her that if allowed to gamble in risky securities some of the profit will trickle down?
 
2012-06-20 11:06:29 AM  

Fart_Machine: Debeo Summa Credo: To which he could respond: "that's how much my employers value my labor. How much is your labor worth to your employer?"

I imagine it takes some real value of labor to lose $2 billion in risky derivatives. The man should get a raise.


Considering $2b is less than 1/2 of regular quarterly earnings, yeah one can see how the banks owners might value his labor pretty highly. But that's up to the owners. Just like the determination of the value of the janitors labor is up to the owners of whatever company employs her.
 
2012-06-20 11:07:58 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: So an employee of a company that is contracted by another company that owns the building that rents to JP Morgan thinks the CEO of JP Morgan is the appropriate person to complain about wages? Seriously?

I don't blame her, but rather those who encouraged her to be a grandstanding attention whore.

Very embarrassing for her, the SEIU, and her defenders.


Ass.
 
2012-06-20 11:12:29 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Considering $2b is less than 1/2 of regular quarterly earnings, yeah one can see how the banks owners might value his labor pretty highly.


Did that actually make sense to you as you were typing it? I'm pretty sure that if I lost my employer 12.5% of its annual earnings, I wouldn't be getting a raise.
 
2012-06-20 11:14:00 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Fart_Machine: Debeo Summa Credo: To which he could respond: "that's how much my employers value my labor. How much is your labor worth to your employer?"

I imagine it takes some real value of labor to lose $2 billion in risky derivatives. The man should get a raise.

Considering $2b is less than 1/2 of regular quarterly earnings, yeah one can see how the banks owners might value his labor pretty highly. But that's up to the owners. Just like the determination of the value of the janitors labor is up to the owners of whatever company employs her.


Making bets in a rigged casino with the taxpayers backstopping your losses is not the same as providing a valuable service to the community, like cleaning and maintenance.

A hired killer's services can be highly valued as well.
 
2012-06-20 11:15:28 AM  

Dr Dreidel: Debeo Summa Credo: Dr Dreidel: She should have asked him:

"If you make $23,000,000 per year, that works out to (assuming a 50-hour work week and 52 weeks/year) $8,846.15 and change per hour. You're honestly telling me that you work 1,059x harder, or provide 1,059x more value, or need 1,059x more than I do to survive? You're telling me you couldn't drop your pay to $7,000ish/hour to pay 1,000 janitors a measly $1.65 more per hour?

REALLY?"

Of course the GOP would answer for him: "Yes, yes, yes and no. Hang on, Mr D, let me get more lube for you. The peons' interruption seems to have startled you a bit."

To which he could respond: "that's how much my employers value my labor. How much is your labor worth to your employer?"

And she could say: "That wasn't the question I asked, moron, so I'll just pretend you agree with me. Apparently, $23m/year doesn't teach language comprehension. Good luck next quarter; I hope your computers don't glitch up and lose your investors 4-5x your yearly salary again. Thanks for being 'worth it', boss."

And then we (that is, you and I) can have a separate debate about how crappily The Market values labor. That ought to be a hoot.


And he could tell her that he's not her boss and express sympathy for her in that she wasted so much of her $8.35 per hour income* to come to Washington to complain to a guy who is a tenant of a company that hired the company that employs her, and if she wanted
to complain to someone who could actually raise her wages she is in the wrong place. Oh well, make sure you go see the Lincoln memorial and white house while you're here.

/*-of course she didn't pay to go to Washington, her grandstanding was union financed.
 
2012-06-20 11:17:41 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: /*-of course she didn't pay to go to Washington, her grandstanding was union financed.


Oh the horror!
 
2012-06-20 11:17:49 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Dr Dreidel: Debeo Summa Credo: Dr Dreidel: She should have asked him:

"If you make $23,000,000 per year, that works out to (assuming a 50-hour work week and 52 weeks/year) $8,846.15 and change per hour. You're honestly telling me that you work 1,059x harder, or provide 1,059x more value, or need 1,059x more than I do to survive? You're telling me you couldn't drop your pay to $7,000ish/hour to pay 1,000 janitors a measly $1.65 more per hour?

REALLY?"

Of course the GOP would answer for him: "Yes, yes, yes and no. Hang on, Mr D, let me get more lube for you. The peons' interruption seems to have startled you a bit."

To which he could respond: "that's how much my employers value my labor. How much is your labor worth to your employer?"

And she could say: "That wasn't the question I asked, moron, so I'll just pretend you agree with me. Apparently, $23m/year doesn't teach language comprehension. Good luck next quarter; I hope your computers don't glitch up and lose your investors 4-5x your yearly salary again. Thanks for being 'worth it', boss."

And then we (that is, you and I) can have a separate debate about how crappily The Market values labor. That ought to be a hoot.

And he could tell her that he's not her boss and express sympathy for her in that she wasted so much of her $8.35 per hour income* to come to Washington to complain to a guy who is a tenant of a company that hired the company that employs her, and if she wanted
to complain to someone who could actually raise her wages she is in the wrong place. Oh well, make sure you go see the Lincoln memorial and white house while you're here.

/*-of course she didn't pay to go to Washington, her grandstanding was union financed.


You're assuming that her objective was to ask her boss for a raise. It wasn't.
 
2012-06-20 11:18:49 AM  

BMulligan: Debeo Summa Credo: Considering $2b is less than 1/2 of regular quarterly earnings, yeah one can see how the banks owners might value his labor pretty highly.

Did that actually make sense to you as you were typing it? I'm pretty sure that if I lost my employer 12.5% of its annual earnings, I wouldn't be getting a raise.


Sigh. Did dimon lose the money? He's already canned some of the London people whose departement caused the loss.

But anticipating your response that the buck stops with the CEO and he is responsible for the loss, then he would equally be responsible for the other 87.5%, or $14billion, which is why the board deems him to be worth $23m.
 
2012-06-20 11:22:08 AM  

imontheinternet: Debeo Summa Credo: Fart_Machine: Debeo Summa Credo: To which he could respond: "that's how much my employers value my labor. How much is your labor worth to your employer?"

I imagine it takes some real value of labor to lose $2 billion in risky derivatives. The man should get a raise.

Considering $2b is less than 1/2 of regular quarterly earnings, yeah one can see how the banks owners might value his labor pretty highly. But that's up to the owners. Just like the determination of the value of the janitors labor is up to the owners of whatever company employs her.

Making bets in a rigged casino with the taxpayers backstopping your losses is not the same as providing a valuable service to the community, like cleaning and maintenance.

A hired killer's services can be highly valued as well.


Do you people realize how farking stupid you sound when you post things like this? Are you all cognizant of how ignorant you sound and are just anti-bank trolls, or are you actually that stupid?
 
2012-06-20 11:26:31 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: To which he could respond: "that's how much my employers value my labor. How much is your labor worth to your employer?"



Trick question.

They actually value the labor of the janitors a great deal. There is, however, sufficient competition for that low skill position that the janitor is paid less than the value of the position.

It's the same reason that long haul truckers and garbage collectors make so little compared to the absolute neccessity of their positions in society.

But you knew that.
 
2012-06-20 11:29:14 AM  

wildcardjack: The question: "DID YOU farkING FLUSH PAPER TOWELS? WHY THE HELL DID YOU DO THAT? They don't dissolve and back up the plumbing. Oh, now I have to reach in and scoop out your paper towels and shiat. Sir, you are an ignorant asshole. "

When I hear about people working for minimum wage when they're well into their adult years I wonder why. One school of thought is that a minimum wage job is supposed to be entry level to adulthood, and the other is that the peasants would work for $2 an hour if we let the employers go that low. I don't work for minimum wage, I won't work for minimum wage. Now that I'm in my thirties I have a skill set that means I can do things, valuable things, even if it's not directly related to my education.

/Excuse me, I just had an idea for a robot janitor design I need to provisional patent and sell to iRobot.
//Then you could pay the remaining janitor twice as much to service them


The fact that people like you are too fat, lazy, and spoiled to clean up after yourselves does not alter the fact that people, who do what you consider to be menial work, still have to eat and pay rent. If you raised the education and skill level of every single person in the state of Texas; in all of America; the building would still need to be cleaned. Inflating educational requirements, as a prerequisite to being allowed to survive, will not make the building magically clean itself.
 
2012-06-20 11:33:07 AM  

Lunaville: The fact that people like you are too fat, lazy, and spoiled to clean up after yourselves does not alter the fact that people, who do what you consider to be menial work, still have to eat and pay rent. If you raised the education and skill level of every single person in the state of Texas; in all of America; the building would still need to be cleaned. Inflating educational requirements, as a prerequisite to being allowed to survive, will not make the building magically clean itself.


There will always be executives and there will always be janitors. If janitors aren't satisfied with their station and income, there are things they can do to improve it. It's not up to you, me or anyone else to do arbitrarily do it for them.
 
2012-06-20 11:33:24 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Do you people realize how farking stupid you sound when you post things like this? Are you all cognizant of how ignorant you sound and are just anti-bank trolls, or are you actually that stupid?


Unfortunately, today I have neither the time nor the energy to shoot down your bank apologist, neofeudalism-posing-as-free-market-libertarianism nonsense, but rest assured that your opinions are wrong, and you're a bad person for having them.
 
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