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(NPR)   Yet another battle between a teacher's union and an oppressive Republican regime is taking place...wait, in Chicago? Rahm Emanuel's backyard? WTF?   (npr.org) divider line 113
    More: Interesting, Republican, Chicago, CTU, CPS, Morning Edition, class size, battles, charter schools  
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971 clicks; posted to Politics » on 20 Jun 2012 at 10:39 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-20 08:58:48 AM
You DO see the difference between "Disagreement on what's in the contract" and "trying to dismantle the union" ... right?
 
2012-06-20 09:29:32 AM

unlikely: You DO see the difference between "Disagreement on what's in the contract" and "trying to dismantle the union" ... right?


The difference is obvious.
Generally if a republican has an issue with unions it is interpreted as dismantling and having us go back to 100 hour work weeks and kids working in coal mines. OMG!
If a democrat has an issue with unions it is just about making sure the paper work is right and a little "disagreement on what's in the contract" (like pay, pension benefits, working conditions).

Same thing happening in California with Jerry Brown.
 
2012-06-20 09:47:48 AM
Article does not mention that the CTU is demanding a 30% pay raise over two years. That's kind of outrageous. If you go on strike because you don't get a 30% pay raise (while being a part of one of the worst-performing public school systems in the nation) then you deserve to be fired. We deservedly credit good teachers when credit is due and they help produce fine, upstanding members of society. Why is it so wrong to partly blame them when they help produce felons? It's like they want you to think of all of the future doctors and lawyers they're teaching when you look at your tax bill, but you're a dirty Republican, union-hating, middle-class destroying asshole when look at the TSA or the person taking your order at McDs and think "public education.... nice."
 
2012-06-20 09:55:34 AM

Fark It: Article does not mention that the CTU is demanding a 30% pay raise over two years.


This just in, sometimes, during negotiations, you make high demands that are then whittled down to more reasonable numbers.
 
2012-06-20 10:03:38 AM

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Fark It: Article does not mention that the CTU is demanding a 30% pay raise over two years.

This just in, sometimes, during negotiations, you make high demands that are then whittled down to more reasonable numbers.


High is one thing. They're starting on another farking planet. Public sector employees demanding a 30% pay raise for mostly sub-par performance does not resonate with the majority of voters, including heathen liberal ones like me. I don't want anyone to lose their collective bargaining rights, but if you refuse to negotiate in good faith (and demanding a 30% raise is not negotiating in good faith, unless you're also agreeing to increase your workload by 30% via a longer work day), then you should be fired.
 
2012-06-20 10:41:22 AM

tenpoundsofcheese: Generally if a republican has an issue with unions it is interpreted as dismantling


Wait, is your statement here that Republicans actually *aren't* trying to get rid of unions entirely, especially public employee unions?

You realize that statement is literally the exact opposite of reality, right?
 
2012-06-20 10:41:38 AM

Fark It: and demanding a 30% raise is not negotiating in good faith, unless you're also agreeing to increase your workload by 30% via a longer work day


Which is exactly what they're doing, if you actually look into it.
 
2012-06-20 10:41:47 AM

Fark It: Why is it so wrong to partly blame them when they help produce felons?


And I was about to take you seriously.
 
2012-06-20 10:41:58 AM
CTU President Karen Lewis says the strong vote in Chicago is an indication of the rocky relationship between the union and the school board. It also demonstrates "the absolute abject lack of respect and scapegoating of teachers, paraprofessionals and clinicians throughout this country," she says.

"That's all we hear," Lewis says. "[That] everything that's wrong with the educational system is our fault."


well, when you're the ones fighting tooth and nail to oppose any effort to reform and improve schools, you shouldn't be surprised when people start blaming you for a lack of reform or improvement.
 
2012-06-20 10:43:17 AM

Fark It: Article does not mention that the CTU is demanding a 30% pay raise over two years. That's kind of outrageous. If you go on strike because you don't get a 30% pay raise (while being a part of one of the worst-performing public school systems in the nation) then you deserve to be fired.


That seems outlandish, even for a Teacher's Union. Do you have a link to an article where they are saying this?
 
2012-06-20 10:44:25 AM

thomps: well, when you're the ones fighting tooth and nail to oppose any effort to reform and improve schools, you shouldn't be surprised when people start blaming you for a lack of reform or improvement.


Well, when every call for reform and improvement always means more work for less pay, what would you do?
 
2012-06-20 10:44:46 AM
CTU President Karen Lewis

www.movieovermind.com
Dammit Chloe, we're running out of time!
 
2012-06-20 10:45:01 AM

Fark It: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Fark It: Article does not mention that the CTU is demanding a 30% pay raise over two years.

This just in, sometimes, during negotiations, you make high demands that are then whittled down to more reasonable numbers.

High is one thing. They're starting on another farking planet. Public sector employees demanding a 30% pay raise for mostly sub-par performance does not resonate with the majority of voters, including heathen liberal ones like me. I don't want anyone to lose their collective bargaining rights, but if you refuse to negotiate in good faith (and demanding a 30% raise is not negotiating in good faith, unless you're also agreeing to increase your workload by 30% via a longer work day), then you should be fired.


Not negotiating in good faith is when you're actually trying to defraud the other guy. A 30% raise might be unrealistic, but it's still negotiating in good faith.
 
2012-06-20 10:47:35 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: thomps: well, when you're the ones fighting tooth and nail to oppose any effort to reform and improve schools, you shouldn't be surprised when people start blaming you for a lack of reform or improvement.

Well, when every call for reform and improvement always means more work for less pay, what would you do?


most of the reforms rahm has proposed relate to decentralizing administration, increasing the charter model, linking compensation to performance, and implementing better performance metrics.

personally, i think the longer school day isn't going to help, but adding full-day kindergarten and better funding of pre-kindergarten programs certainly will.
 
2012-06-20 10:48:22 AM
CTU might wanna check the mail. It's getting hot outside.
 
2012-06-20 10:51:07 AM
Yet another battle between a teacher's union and an oppressive Republican regime is taking place...wait, in Chicago? Rahm Emanuel's backyard? WTF?

This makes perfect sense, except to the all-too-common morons who believe that the Democratic party is under the non-existent thumb of Big Labor.
 
2012-06-20 10:51:35 AM

thomps: personally, i think the longer school day isn't going to help, but adding full-day kindergarten and better funding of pre-kindergarten programs certainly will.


And which one is the union against?
I find it hard to believe they're against better funding for kindergarten.
 
2012-06-20 10:53:24 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: thomps: personally, i think the longer school day isn't going to help, but adding full-day kindergarten and better funding of pre-kindergarten programs certainly will.

And which one is the union against?
I find it hard to believe they're against better funding for kindergarten.


for sure, if i were rahm, i'd drop the longer school day in the end, and am assuming that he's using it as a stick that he'll drop after pushing through the other stuff.
 
2012-06-20 10:53:58 AM

Fark It: and demanding a 30% raise is not negotiating in good faith, unless you're also agreeing to increase your workload by 30% via a longer work day


You mean like that time Rahm proposed increasing their workday by about 30%? Like the thing that kicked all this off in the first place?

It's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about....
 
2012-06-20 11:01:22 AM
I think the teachers' unions are the teachers worst enemies at this point.
 
2012-06-20 11:03:01 AM

Yellow Beard: I think the teachers' unions are the teachers worst enemies at this point.


Yeah, definitely. It's the unions, not the people who are trying to slash their salaries and benefits and are constantly demonizing their profession and their $40k salary as overpaid. Definitely the unions.
 
2012-06-20 11:05:24 AM
I have been enjoying Chicago politics sence Rahm has taken over. It is fun to see him turn his back on everything he has cheerleaded for once he actually has to manage something.
 
2012-06-20 11:05:44 AM

Yellow Beard: I think the teachers' unions are the teachers worst enemies at this point.


You think incorrectly. Their worst enemies are those in this society who feel that teaching is not a job worthy of their respect and proper compensation.

After all, someone like "Snooki" likely makes more in three years than every teacher in the country put together. That should be telling enough.
 
2012-06-20 11:08:15 AM

qorkfiend: Yellow Beard: I think the teachers' unions are the teachers worst enemies at this point.

Yeah, definitely. It's the unions, not the people who are trying to slash their salaries and benefits and are constantly demonizing their profession and their $40k salary as overpaid. Definitely the unions.


you should take a look at the CPS salary bands sometime.
 
2012-06-20 11:10:34 AM

qorkfiend: Yellow Beard: I think the teachers' unions are the teachers worst enemies at this point.

Yeah, definitely. It's the unions, not the people who are trying to slash their salaries and benefits and are constantly demonizing their profession and their $40k salary as overpaid. Definitely the unions.


My father has instilled in me a great respect for the NEA. Not only were many of my teachers card-holders (even though I went to private schools), but both of my dad's parents worked as unioned teachers at several times in their lives - which earned them pensions and other investment opportunities, which paid not only partially for my dad to get his BA, Master's and PhD, but also paid for the 3 Bachelors' that my brothers and I have.

Oh, and it paid for part of their funeral expenses, too.

It's a little funny how ITT, people are saying that negotiated contracts by a union and government are unfair, and in THIS thread, those same critics are saying that negotiated contracts between a financial services company and the management company that owns the building named for that same financial services company are sacrosanct.
 
2012-06-20 11:10:36 AM
30% pay raise. Zero accountability. Platinum plated pensions and healthcare and retiring in your 50s.


These teachers can go to hell and I hope Rahm destroys them.
 
2012-06-20 11:11:06 AM

Yellow Beard: I think the teachers' unions are the teachers worst enemies at this point.


Problem: It's difficult to find quality teachers and even more difficult to retain them.

Result: Qualified, intelligent and hard-working individuals often leave the profession within 5 years because they can make more money for less work in a lower-stress environment in the private sector.

Impact: Short on quality professionals, schools are left scraping the bottom of the barrel for the dregs who are left over by the flight to private enterprise.

Derplution: Blame the unions for poor quality outcomes, cut their pay and benefits and blame them for "roblem". Return to "Problem", wipe hands on pants, turn on Glenn Beck and pat self on back for being so "smrt", repeat.

Why is it that we have no problem accepting the fact that if you want to attract quality professionals in the private sector you have to offer competitive salary and benefit packages, but we pretend this rule somehow doesn't apply to the public sector? Then we sit around biatching when the public sector is full of the nose-picking idiots that couldn't hack it in the private sector and wondering why it's so hard to find good teachers who are willing to stay in the profession?

Why is it that teaching is one of the few professions where we think we can just expect that people will stay out of the goodness of their hearts while ignoring the negative impact on their bank accounts?
 
2012-06-20 11:12:00 AM

thomps: for sure, if i were rahm, i'd drop the longer school day in the end, and am assuming that he's using it as a stick that he'll drop after pushing through the other stuff.


I'm just on edge because the wife is an early childhood education lady.
The continuing crusade against teachers being paid to educate means she has better job security as a pharmacy tech.
Terms like charter schools and performance metrics are just an excuse to pay teachers less.
I can't fathom why people would accept pay based on performance when the teacher's job is to provide the information, not the desire for the child to learn.
It's the same things as holding the IRS responsible for the people who don't pay their taxes. Certainly, it's in the IRS's interest that people pay their taxes, but they don't have control over the individuals to make it happen immediately. They can only go after offenders after the fact.
The same can be said of teachers. They're not responsible for students unwilling to learn. It's in teachers' interests that they do, but they can only make the attempt once the child arrives at school. Basing their pay on this makes no sense, as they have little control over a child's home life and values. Performance metrics rarely take this into account, and thus I couldn't reasonable base (already paltry) teacher pay on it.
Charter schools have much the same problem, in that they can refuse admission to the children unwilling to learn.

CSB bro time. It's been a day and an age since I attended the 7th grade, but there was a fellow in there that I swear was 14. By the time I graduated high school, he'd dropped out of high school. he already had two kids, and one of them was in kindergarten or first grade before I graduated. What do you do when you get someone like that in your classroom? You know all he's going to do is drag down the performance metric. He has no desire to be in school, to learn. The next standardized test he takes will determine your pay, and you're not even sure he'll bother to read the questions.
 
2012-06-20 11:14:37 AM

Brostorm: 30% pay raise. Zero accountability. Platinum plated pensions and healthcare and retiring in your 50s.


These teachers can go to hell and I hope Rahm destroys them.


Translation: "I have few marketable skills so I have to suffer as a cubicle drone at a crappy job. Rather than improving myself so that I can earn a better living, I'd rather just try and tear everyone else down to my level instead".

I plan to retire from my private sector employer before I'm 60. Well, if I decide I no longer enjoy my job, anyway. It's hard work, but I don't mind it. I'm sorry to hear you lack quality skills and are relegated to mediocrity by your unwillingness to change, but that's really your own fault.
 
2012-06-20 11:15:11 AM

qorkfiend: Yellow Beard: I think the teachers' unions are the teachers worst enemies at this point.

Yeah, definitely. It's the unions, not the people who are trying to slash their salaries and benefits and are constantly demonizing their profession and their $40k salary as overpaid. Definitely the unions.


0/10. bad troll is bad.
 
2012-06-20 11:15:52 AM

Splinshints: Why is it that we have no problem accepting the fact that if you want to attract quality professionals in the private sector you have to offer competitive salary and benefit packages, but we pretend this rule somehow doesn't apply to the public sector?


To be honest, most of those same people seem to have no problem accepting that CEOs need to be retained through compensation and benefits. Not so much the regular Joe workers. Their benefit is they have a job.
 
2012-06-20 11:17:21 AM

Brostorm: 0/10. bad troll is bad.


Dude, get some farking information. Outside of a big city, $40K is generous, and the teachers get close to that after 20 years.
 
2012-06-20 11:17:25 AM

qorkfiend: Yellow Beard: I think the teachers' unions are the teachers worst enemies at this point.

Yeah, definitely. It's the unions, not the people who are trying to slash their salaries and benefits and are constantly demonizing their profession and their $40k salary as overpaid. Definitely the unions.


Actually, what has caused the public to have less respect for teachers?

Personally, I think a good teacher is worth every penny they make. However, they are paid by the public. If their wage and benefits packages are way out of step for the area they are in, one can understand the backlash.

I have no idea how much teachers make everywhere in the US. I do know how much they make in my kids district. They are averaging 1.7x the median income. Those same teachers making nearly double what the average citizen that is paying their salary makes also only work for 30 years and then retire with one of the sweetest retirement deals on the planet. 75% highest years salary with free med, dental, and vision for life.

Would I want to be a teacher? Hell no, but I also think they are biatching when they already have a fantastic deal where I live.
 
2012-06-20 11:18:09 AM

Splinshints: Brostorm: 30% pay raise. Zero accountability. Platinum plated pensions and healthcare and retiring in your 50s.


These teachers can go to hell and I hope Rahm destroys them.

Translation: "I have few marketable skills so I have to suffer as a cubicle drone at a crappy job. Rather than improving myself so that I can earn a better living, I'd rather just try and tear everyone else down to my level instead".

I plan to retire from my private sector employer before I'm 60. Well, if I decide I no longer enjoy my job, anyway. It's hard work, but I don't mind it. I'm sorry to hear you lack quality skills and are relegated to mediocrity by your unwillingness to change, but that's really your own fault.


Translation:"this all ends with the death of public sector unions so lets just attack anyone that sees the problem."

I aint even mad bro.
 
2012-06-20 11:18:31 AM

Brostorm: qorkfiend: Yellow Beard: I think the teachers' unions are the teachers worst enemies at this point.

Yeah, definitely. It's the unions, not the people who are trying to slash their salaries and benefits and are constantly demonizing their profession and their $40k salary as overpaid. Definitely the unions.

0/10. bad troll is bad.


lol
 
2012-06-20 11:21:00 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: Brostorm: 0/10. bad troll is bad.

Dude, get some farking information. Outside of a big city, $40K is generous, and the teachers get close to that after 20 years.


Average teacher in Jersey makes $63154. They start at 40 and just g up from there. Add in benefits and a ludicrous pension if you want for hilaritys sake.
 
2012-06-20 11:21:30 AM

Brostorm: Sergeant Grumbles: Brostorm: 0/10. bad troll is bad.

Dude, get some farking information. Outside of a big city, $40K is generous, and the teachers get close to that after 20 years.

Average teacher in Jersey makes $63154. They start at 40 and just g up from there. Add in benefits and a ludicrous pension if you want for hilaritys sake.


Are we talking about New Jersey? Negative.
 
2012-06-20 11:22:33 AM

qorkfiend: Brostorm: qorkfiend: Yellow Beard: I think the teachers' unions are the teachers worst enemies at this point.

Yeah, definitely. It's the unions, not the people who are trying to slash their salaries and benefits and are constantly demonizing their profession and their $40k salary as overpaid. Definitely the unions.

0/10. bad troll is bad.

lol


"A Chicago Public Schools spokesperson said average pay for teachers, without benefits, is $76,000."

WITHOUT BENEFITS which are insane. Yeah bro, tell me more about that 40k, very cool story
 
2012-06-20 11:23:14 AM

qorkfiend: Brostorm: Sergeant Grumbles: Brostorm: 0/10. bad troll is bad.

Dude, get some farking information. Outside of a big city, $40K is generous, and the teachers get close to that after 20 years.

Average teacher in Jersey makes $63154. They start at 40 and just g up from there. Add in benefits and a ludicrous pension if you want for hilaritys sake.

Are we talking about New Jersey? Negative.


"A Chicago Public Schools spokesperson said average pay for teachers, without benefits, is $76,000."

without benefits. We are talking about Chicago right?
 
2012-06-20 11:25:43 AM

Brostorm: 30% pay raise. Zero accountability. Platinum plated pensions and healthcare and retiring in your 50s.


Sounds like the average CEO.
 
2012-06-20 11:27:11 AM

The Name: Brostorm: 30% pay raise. Zero accountability. Platinum plated pensions and healthcare and retiring in your 50s.

Sounds like the average CEO.


Because everyone is a CEO and the public pays them through the magic that is raising taxes right?
 
2012-06-20 11:28:05 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: I can't fathom why people would accept pay based on performance when the teacher's job is to provide the information, not the desire for the child to learn


Sweet, that means I can replace all of the teachers in my school district. Day one, I walk into each of the classrooms and dump the books and say read these then walk out.
 
2012-06-20 11:28:32 AM

Brostorm: Average teacher in Jersey makes $63154.

Brostorm: "A Chicago Public Schools spokesperson said average pay for teachers, without benefits, is $76,000."


Did you miss the part where I said outside of a big city?
 
2012-06-20 11:29:16 AM

Brostorm: The Name: Brostorm: 30% pay raise. Zero accountability. Platinum plated pensions and healthcare and retiring in your 50s.

Sounds like the average CEO.

Because everyone is a CEO and the public pays them through the magic that is raising taxes right?


Swing and a miss.
 
2012-06-20 11:30:31 AM

Saiga410: Sweet, that means I can replace all of the teachers in my school district. Day one, I walk into each of the classrooms and dump the books and say read these then walk out.


I'm 100% certain that, if you're serious, that this was all you thought teachers did anyway.
 
2012-06-20 11:31:25 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: Brostorm: Average teacher in Jersey makes $63154.
Brostorm: "A Chicago Public Schools spokesperson said average pay for teachers, without benefits, is $76,000."

Did you miss the part where I said outside of a big city?


Average salary in all of Illinois is 58686. This does not include benefits and pensions worth many times what one would get in the private sector. They start at 37,500. Sorry your numbers were garbage and im smacking your shiat
 
2012-06-20 11:34:52 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: Saiga410: Sweet, that means I can replace all of the teachers in my school district. Day one, I walk into each of the classrooms and dump the books and say read these then walk out.

I'm 100% certain that, if you're serious, that this was all you thought teachers did anyway.


So they do something that is quantifiable?
 
2012-06-20 11:35:13 AM

Brostorm: Sergeant Grumbles: Brostorm: Average teacher in Jersey makes $63154.
Brostorm: "A Chicago Public Schools spokesperson said average pay for teachers, without benefits, is $76,000."

Did you miss the part where I said outside of a big city?

Average salary in all of Illinois is 58686. This does not include benefits and pensions worth many times what one would get in the private sector. They start at 37,500. Sorry your numbers were garbage and im smacking your shiat


Where are you getting your numbers from?
 
2012-06-20 11:37:39 AM

Saiga410: Sergeant Grumbles: Saiga410: Sweet, that means I can replace all of the teachers in my school district. Day one, I walk into each of the classrooms and dump the books and say read these then walk out.

I'm 100% certain that, if you're serious, that this was all you thought teachers did anyway.

So they do something that is quantifiable?


You are seriously arguing against teachers. Look at how stupid you are. Look.
 
2012-06-20 11:38:12 AM
Is there a correlation between teacher pay and student performance*? Because the teachers unions always claim that better paid teachers = higher grades.

/Thanks for googling that for me.
 
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