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(Gizmodo)   Now that Comic Sans has been defeated, it's time for font-snobs to turn their irrational, Rain Man-like hatred onto a new target: Helvetica   ( gizmodo.com) divider line
    More: Stupid, Helvetica, media group, irrational, hate  
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6613 clicks; posted to Geek » on 19 Jun 2012 at 1:54 PM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-19 03:23:59 PM  

Millennium: austerity101: 1) How delightfully/disappointingly retro. Helvetica is forever associated with the 60s, when it achieved major popularity, and if you use it, you better be trying to evoke that, because you're going to, whether you like it or not.

I have doubts that it raises such for almost anyone born after 1962 or so, the exceptions being design history students and people who have been watching too much Mad Men. What makes you think it would cause such associations in others?


I suppose if you have a specific audience that only includes people born after this date (although I was as well, though I suppose I could be an exception here), then you might have a good case, but it seems like shoddy marketing and a slightly unethical practice to use ignorance as a method in one's design tactics.
 
2012-06-19 03:24:57 PM  
justcreative.com
 
2012-06-19 03:25:06 PM  

Millennium: Terminus


I'd go insane without that font. I dabbled with Dina and Coding Font Tobi for a while (which are both quite good), but Terminus is the culmination of that entire style. Such a perfect font!

As much as I love them, though, bitmap, monospace fonts are really a whole different discussion from proportional, raster fonts like Helvetica, where you have to deal with all THIS insanity:
http://www.antigrain.com/research/font_rasterization/index.html

/being able to slide fonts at 1/10th pixel accuracy is farking amazing, though....
 
2012-06-19 03:26:35 PM  
2.bp.blogspot.com

What Helvetica looks like.
 
2012-06-19 03:30:49 PM  
fontsnobs are weird.
 
2012-06-19 03:30:56 PM  

whatshisname: Frutiger


Now Adrian, I'm really happy for you, and imma let you finish, but Akzidenz Grotesk is one of the best jobbing san serifs of all time. Of all time!
 
2012-06-19 03:32:48 PM  

Treygreen13: My friends were all like:
So 9 months later my friend was all like:
But when I saw all the Comic Sans I was like:

This is me:

ice4safety.com

 
2012-06-19 03:33:06 PM  

Honest Bender: Comic Sans


Yep. Dead and buried:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd">
<fontconfig>
  <alias>
    <family>Comic Sans MS</family>
    <prefer>
      <family>sans-serif</family>
    </prefer>
  </alias>
</fontconfig>
 
2012-06-19 03:34:28 PM  
I enjoy Helvetica Neue for webpages, personally.

I also like Century Gothic. But that's just me. I'm no font snob. Futura or Trebuchet is great for headlines.
 
2012-06-19 03:34:47 PM  
Was gonna post this in ZALGO but it seems as if that's not supported here...
 
2012-06-19 03:34:51 PM  
theorellior

Now Adrian, I'm really happy for you, and imma let you finish, but Akzidenz Grotesk is one of the best jobbing san serifs of all time. Of all time!


I knew I favorited you for a reason...that is another one of my favorite fonts. Used it today even.
 
2012-06-19 03:36:40 PM  
 
2012-06-19 03:37:03 PM  
Another for Garamond here. I dropped my font size to 11 (I'm such a rebel) for e-mails and people are still able to read it quite well. Or they all secretly hate me for it, I've gotten no complains on fonts when I have before.
 
2012-06-19 03:38:40 PM  

DrZiffle: Helvetica has its own documentary. Can Courier say that?


Helvetica had its own big 50th anniversary exhibit at MOMA in NYC
 
2012-06-19 03:40:07 PM  

Treygreen13: PanicAttack: I hate Arial because lowercase ls look like uppercase Is

It's a flaw in the font but how often do you have a standalone lower-case L?


The worst is Gill Sans. Lowercase ls, uppercase Is, and number 1s all look exactly the same. A previous company I worked at mandated Gill Sans for all company documentation. That was a biatch for IT.
 
2012-06-19 03:40:11 PM  

Treygreen13: PanicAttack: I hate Arial because lowercase ls look like uppercase Is

It's a flaw in the font but how often do you have a standalone lower-case L?


You don't. But when Kim Jong Il looks like Kim Jong ll, or the word "Ill" looks like "lll", there is a problem with your font.
 
2012-06-19 03:41:45 PM  

UrCa: Another for Garamond here. I dropped my font size to 11 (I'm such a rebel) for e-mails and people are still able to read it quite well. Or they all secretly hate me for it, I've gotten no complains on fonts when I have before.


It's probably just not showing up on their end. Not everyone has Garamond.

Unless you're embedding fonts.
 
2012-06-19 03:43:02 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Treygreen13: PanicAttack: I hate Arial because lowercase ls look like uppercase Is

It's a flaw in the font but how often do you have a standalone lower-case L?

You don't. But when Kim Jong Il looks like Kim Jong ll, or the word "Ill" looks like "lll", there is a problem with your font.


True.
 
2012-06-19 03:50:37 PM  

Treygreen13: It's probably just not showing up on their end. Not everyone has Garamond.

Unless you're embedding fonts.


Doubtful, county PCs are locked down hard, can't add or remove fonts and you'll probably find the same 3 models across 20 different camps/facilities.
 
2012-06-19 03:54:52 PM  
I'm bringing comic sans back.
 
2012-06-19 03:56:23 PM  

theorellior: OCRA-B, Lucida and Orator are all better choices for that than Courier.


I rather like Droid Sans Mono; default fixed-width font on Xubuntu. Easy on the eyes. I and l are different. Only minor quirk: there's no dotted-zero or slashed-zero to differentiate the number 0 from the letter O.

Still, it's really pleasant to read.

/this was a concern of mine as I recently did a printed backup of my PGP private key and wanted to make sure I could differentiate between characters if I had to type it back in. I ended up using an OCR font so I could tell the difference.
//Another easy solution I used: make QR codes of each line. Assuming I'm using a webcam to "scan" them, I can comfortably fit 12 codes on one side of an A4 page. Built-in error correction and essentially no risk of typos. It's also pretty easy to scan back into the computer.
 
2012-06-19 04:07:06 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Treygreen13: PanicAttack: I hate Arial because lowercase ls look like uppercase Is

It's a flaw in the font but how often do you have a standalone lower-case L?

You don't. But when Kim Jong Il looks like Kim Jong ll, or the word "Ill" looks like "lll", there is a problem with your font.


Serious question then: which sans-serif font is THE BEST at distinguishing I and l?
 
2012-06-19 04:22:00 PM  
So many of you seem to live and die by fonts for some reason... when are you making these font choices? Why does it matter?
 
2012-06-19 04:22:45 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: [upload.wikimedia.org image 339x479]

This individual becoming surprisingly nervous about the War On Helvetica.

/I hope this isn't obscure...at least to iconography and fontography geeks
//even if I didn't know the AIGA Stick Figure Guy had a certain nickname until this year


can you let the rest of us in on the joke?
 
2012-06-19 04:23:58 PM  

Treygreen13: I usually use Calibri for my default sans-serif


OK, I don't pay huge attention to this so I could be wrong, but I think Calibri is the MS-owned font they're pushing in Office apps especially Outlook. The problem is if you write an email in it and it goes to someone using a Max or Linux box or old computer or android phone or iphone, it won't look the same. Or, you write a powerpoint in it and then plug into an old XP machine with office 1999 or something on it and it looks like shiat. Sometimes a really shiatty and weird font is substituted and people wonder what the fark you were thinking. Wheras if you use something more universal like Times or Arial it seems to come through unchanged.

Anyway, from a few experiences that's why I avoid Calibri. I think Garamond is OK, maybe.
 
2012-06-19 04:28:04 PM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: So many of you seem to live and die by fonts for some reason... when are you making these font choices? Why does it matter?


Because I want my documents to convey that I'm an educated professional capable of getting my points across clearly?
 
2012-06-19 04:28:49 PM  

Bacontastesgood: Anyway, from a few experiences that's why I avoid Calibri. I think Garamond is OK, maybe.


You think some people might not have Calibri so it's a bad choice, but you recommend Garamond?

Anyway, the work I do is either with embedded fonts (PDFs) or is printed.
 
2012-06-19 04:33:03 PM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: So many of you seem to live and die by fonts for some reason... when are you making these font choices? Why does it matter?


I'm with you, and I'm not with you.

Some font-use is a matter of style and readability. This time spent choosing fonts is wise.

Time spent agonizing over whether or not the finial is too long on Segoe UI Light is not wisely spent.
 
2012-06-19 04:34:38 PM  
As a person who frequently has to write e-mails that include DNA alignments, I say courier new.

Otherwise, it is 12 point arial, because the people I write to are old, but 14 point will usually require them to find the scroll bar.

Otherwise braggadocio for the meh!

/Fonts should be clear about whether it is the number 1 or the lower-case l.
 
2012-06-19 04:35:57 PM  
Uchiha_Cycliste

So many of you seem to live and die by fonts for some reason... when are you making these font choices? Why does it matter?

At work for various point-of-sale designs, newsletters, shirts, billboards, web designs, and banner ads. And whatever else might come my way.

Fonts convey certain vibes and attitudes. So, I try to find a font that seems to match the message and tone of thing I am designing. It's eye-rolling minutiae to people that hate art and especially graphic design, but to me it's my lively-hood and my boss straight up loves my work.

I love this stuff. And understand people not caring...but on the other hand...if there was a thread about certain nuts and bolts to be used in construction I wouldn't come in and post that I hope everybody that does care dies in a building fire because I only use the hardware that came with the packaging.
 
2012-06-19 04:40:41 PM  

busy chillin': At work for various point-of-sale designs, newsletters, shirts, billboards, web designs, and banner ads. And whatever else might come my way.


I'm jealous. All my stuff is dry finance design.
 
2012-06-19 04:42:09 PM  

busy chillin': And understand people not caring...but on the other hand...if there was a thread about certain nuts and bolts to be used in construction I wouldn't come in and post that I hope everybody that does care dies in a building fire because I only use the hardware that came with the packaging.


No, it would be more akin to wandering in to a car-nut thread and declaring that it's silly to worry about which car you drive when a 1986 Chevy Citation works just fine.

Or if you post in a gun thread about it's dumb to use anything but a .22 submachine gun because all you need for a gun to do is spray bullets.
 
2012-06-19 04:43:45 PM  
I just knew one day these would be good for something...

img.photobucket.com
 
2012-06-19 04:45:59 PM  
Treygreen13

busy chillin': At work for various point-of-sale designs, newsletters, shirts, billboards, web designs, and banner ads. And whatever else might come my way.

I'm jealous. All my stuff is dry finance design.


That is tough. I ain't trying to get in on your stuff...but all companies can benefit from good looking graphic design. Maybe you can breathe some life into it.

And yes, I most certainly can not complain about my design job/career.
 
2012-06-19 04:47:46 PM  
theorellior

LULZ! Those are better examples.
 
2012-06-19 04:50:24 PM  

busy chillin': Treygreen13

busy chillin': At work for various point-of-sale designs, newsletters, shirts, billboards, web designs, and banner ads. And whatever else might come my way.

I'm jealous. All my stuff is dry finance design.

That is tough. I ain't trying to get in on your stuff...but all companies can benefit from good looking graphic design. Maybe you can breathe some life into it.

And yes, I most certainly can not complain about my design job/career.


The finance industry's design (as a whole) is far, far behind in my experience.

If you're ever looking into web design/graphics, try finance. Lots of opportunities.
 
2012-06-19 04:53:17 PM  

PanicAttack: Uchiha_Cycliste: So many of you seem to live and die by fonts for some reason... when are you making these font choices? Why does it matter?

Because I want my documents to convey that I'm an educated professional capable of getting my points across clearly?


I honestly can't tell if this is sarcastic.
I guess to add to the equation, im a HWe. I write emails. Modify or create technical documents, and work in code. I'm not really sure were I would encounter fonts as a reflection of my work. So I'm curious which jobs and functions feel differently, and why they do. That's not unreasonable, right?
 
2012-06-19 04:55:18 PM  
 
2012-06-19 04:55:34 PM  

busy chillin': I love this stuff. And understand people not caring...but on the other hand...if there was a thread about certain nuts and bolts to be used in construction I wouldn't come in and post that I hope everybody that does care dies in a building fire because I only use the hardware that came with the packaging.


Like I said in another post, it's not as much uncaring as in what I do it's not a factor in things. I'm curious what other places it is relevant and why and how they make use of fonts .
 
2012-06-19 05:03:10 PM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: PanicAttack: Uchiha_Cycliste: So many of you seem to live and die by fonts for some reason... when are you making these font choices? Why does it matter?

Because I want my documents to convey that I'm an educated professional capable of getting my points across clearly?

I honestly can't tell if this is sarcastic.
I guess to add to the equation, im a HWe. I write emails. Modify or create technical documents, and work in code. I'm not really sure were I would encounter fonts as a reflection of my work. So I'm curious which jobs and functions feel differently, and why they do. That's not unreasonable, right?


Well they're specifically very important in most aspects of graphic design.
 
2012-06-19 05:04:13 PM  

Surool: Not real font snobs, just some dipsh*t at Gizmodo. Helvetica is still perfect for imparting information that doesn't need marketing hype.


^^^^ That right there. NY subway system uses it to convey information daily to millions of people.

I wouldn't say I'm a font geek. Close, but not hard-core. I can appreciate some modern fonts. But helvetica is absolutely appropriate in many, many places.
 
2012-06-19 05:07:58 PM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: Like I said in another post, it's not as much uncaring as in what I do it's not a factor in things. I'm curious what other places it is relevant and why and how they make use of fonts .


Well, signage is tremendously important. Road signs use a specially-designed font that was studied to be the most readable from far away, when travelling quickly. You can imagine the dangers if they used a hard to read font.
 
2012-06-19 05:08:26 PM  
I have hated Helvetica with a deep passion ever since the 1st edition AD&D DM Guide (the one with the efreet on the cover). I swear that book is to blame for my shiatty eyesight. Then, later on, I used to hang around alt.religion.kibology and got the proper language to express my disgust with that devil of a font.

Of course, the wife is a graphic designer and local AIGA president, and she just insists Helvetica is just misunderstood. She tried to take me to see the movie and we had a dustup. Hitler's name was invoked. Foul thing,

It works really well for signs, though.
 
2012-06-19 05:14:15 PM  

downstairs: Uchiha_Cycliste: Like I said in another post, it's not as much uncaring as in what I do it's not a factor in things. I'm curious what other places it is relevant and why and how they make use of fonts .

Well, signage is tremendously important. Road signs use a specially-designed font that was studied to be the most readable from far away, when travelling quickly. You can imagine the dangers if they used a hard to read font.


neat
 
2012-06-19 05:18:14 PM  
Speaking of road signs...outside Topeka, KS on i-470 there is a sign with a different font. I swear it is Gadget...which is madness (well not really, but it is bit of a unique san-serif font) and wonder what happened. Maybe the designer just got sick of helvetica that day.
 
2012-06-19 05:19:54 PM  
Looks like I've gone and changed it, but what god-awful font did MS use for default heading styles in Word 2007? It was horrid.

I'm no layout artist or graphic designer, but for my printed output, it's Arial for headings, TNR for body text. Nice and boring.
 
2012-06-19 05:23:26 PM  
Oh, and MS also changed the font rendering engine in Visual Studio 2010 to Direct Draw instead of GDI, and you can no longer code in FixedSys, going against WHAT GOD INTENDED!
 
2012-06-19 05:24:04 PM  
It's Zapf Chancery or nothing for me.
 
2012-06-19 05:25:21 PM  

downstairs: Uchiha_Cycliste: Like I said in another post, it's not as much uncaring as in what I do it's not a factor in things. I'm curious what other places it is relevant and why and how they make use of fonts .

Well, signage is tremendously important. Road signs use a specially-designed font that was studied to be the most readable from far away, when travelling quickly. You can imagine the dangers if they used a hard to read font.


Actually, road signs use a number of different fonts--most road signs in the US (and Canada, Mexico, Australia, and New Zealand) use an FHWA-designed font family, but there are a number of states (and at least three Canadian provinces) now going towards Clearview as a font family for use in signs (because of some tests that show that Clearview is more legible at longer distances for elderly folks).

Park signs are another thing altogether. The US formerly used Clarendon, and now uses Rawlinson and Clearview (for actual Park Signs and MUTCD-standard road signs respectively) and Frutiger (for things like interpretive displays)--Canada uses whatever the provincial standard is for road signs, and has standardised on Helvetica Neue-75 (yes, very specifically Font #75 in the Helvetica Neue family!) for interpretive signs and displays.

Personally I like Frutiger a bit better, but largely because you don't confuse "L" with "1"...

/and we won't even talk about Arial, aka "Microsoft's Diving Into Knockoff Fonts Because They Didn't Want To Pay The Twenty Pieces Of Silver To License Helvetica"
 
2012-06-19 05:25:42 PM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: fonts as a reflection of my work


For some of us it's simpler than that: it's about being able to read things clearly, possibly even when you've been up for way too long, cramming for some deadline. It didn't start out as strong opinions, but over time the nerd factor rises and the vision gets worse. The *style* of the font, while interesting, isn't relevant.

It's more about things like this image from earlier in the thread:
oi49.tinypic.com

The font style may be nice, but the horrible half-bright-pixel fuzz on the edge of the glyphs makes my eyes think it's not in the same depth-of-field and try to refocus constantly. Especially compared to what it looks like when properly rendered.
 
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