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(Gizmodo)   Now that Comic Sans has been defeated, it's time for font-snobs to turn their irrational, Rain Man-like hatred onto a new target: Helvetica   (gizmodo.com) divider line 260
    More: Stupid, Helvetica, media group, irrational, hate  
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6609 clicks; posted to Geek » on 19 Jun 2012 at 1:54 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-19 05:25:42 PM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: fonts as a reflection of my work


For some of us it's simpler than that: it's about being able to read things clearly, possibly even when you've been up for way too long, cramming for some deadline. It didn't start out as strong opinions, but over time the nerd factor rises and the vision gets worse. The *style* of the font, while interesting, isn't relevant.

It's more about things like this image from earlier in the thread:
oi49.tinypic.com

The font style may be nice, but the horrible half-bright-pixel fuzz on the edge of the glyphs makes my eyes think it's not in the same depth-of-field and try to refocus constantly. Especially compared to what it looks like when properly rendered.
 
2012-06-19 05:27:11 PM  

PanicAttack: Whomever decided that Calibri should be the default font for Office can burn in hell. It looks completely unprofessional.

I hate Arial because lowercase ls look like uppercase Is. Times New Roman is ugly, but at least the letters are distinguishable from each other.


MS does crap like that all the time, a bunch of people gotta justify their employment.
 
2012-06-19 05:28:46 PM  

busy chillin': Speaking of road signs...outside Topeka, KS on i-470 there is a sign with a different font. I swear it is Gadget...which is madness (well not really, but it is bit of a unique san-serif font) and wonder what happened. Maybe the designer just got sick of helvetica that day.


Are you sure it might not be a heavier weighting of Clearview (maybe Clearview-6W or something like that)?

I ask because (if memory serves me right) Kansas IS one of the states that what I affectionately refer to as the Clearview PlagueTM has broken out in at their highway department...we're also seeing Clearview all over the place in KY ever since the MUTCD gave provisional approval back in 2009. Guess they have to use their $1500 licensing fee somehow, eh? :D
 
2012-06-19 05:31:16 PM  

Nexzus: Looks like I've gone and changed it, but what god-awful font did MS use for default heading styles in Word 2007? It was horrid.

I'm no layout artist or graphic designer, but for my printed output, it's Arial for headings, TNR for body text. Nice and boring.


Cambria, which was one of the In-House-Designed fonts that Microsoft introduced in Office 2007 and Vista--and yes, I agree, rather prefer Arial (or Helvetica, if you can get it) for headings

/no, really, I do not have an AIGA membership card
//just a font geek
 
2012-06-19 05:31:21 PM  

pdkl95: The font style may be nice, but the horrible half-bright-pixel fuzz on the edge of the glyphs makes my eyes think it's not in the same depth-of-field and try to refocus constantly. Especially compared to what it looks like when properly rendered.


I dunno, the tight spacing of the top curves of both the "a" and the "f" are driving me nuts no matter how you render it.
 
2012-06-19 05:33:00 PM  
Great Porn Dragon

WOW! Nice. it is Clearview. Gadget has similar "a" and "l" (lowercase L)
 
2012-06-19 05:33:22 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: /and we won't even talk about Arial, aka "Microsoft's Diving Into Knockoff Fonts Because They Didn't Want To Pay The Twenty Pieces Of Silver To License Helvetica"


Arial is such a shiatty knockoff, it's just embarrassing to look at. At least you could tell someone cared about Cambria or Calibiri when they designed them.
 
2012-06-19 05:35:25 PM  

luidprand: have hated Helvetica with a deep passion ever since the 1st edition AD&D DM Guide (the one with the efreet on the cover). I swear that book is to blame for my shiatty eyesight. Then, later on, I used to hang around alt.religion.kibology and got the proper language to express my disgust with that devil of a font.


Yes, sans-serif fonts are terrible for reading long passages. Serifed fonts like this read much, much better on print.
 
2012-06-19 05:36:03 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: I ask because (if memory serves me right) Kansas IS one of the states that what I affectionately refer to as the Clearview PlagueTM has broken out in at their highway department...we're also seeing Clearview all over the place in KY ever since the MUTCD gave provisional approval back in 2009. Guess they have to use their $1500 licensing fee somehow, eh? :D


Texas started using Clearview just before I left, I was a little disconcerted because I'm a big fan of the FHWA fonts. Evidently there are definite distance legibility benefits to using Clearview, so I guess I'm okay with it.
 
2012-06-19 05:39:06 PM  
A font thread and nothing about Wingdings being anti-semitic??
 
2012-06-19 05:44:05 PM  

busy chillin': Great Porn Dragon

WOW! Nice. it is Clearview. Gadget has similar "a" and "l" (lowercase L)


This may actually be the one and only instance on Fark where my being an incorrigible sign-geek (to the point of it being mild annoyance to others!) is actually USEFUL :D

And yeah, I'd seen pics of signs (largely in Pennsylvania and Texas, two states that have their own "state MUTCDs" and thus have their own standards for signage and such) using Clearview before, so recognised what it was when it started showing up like a bad rash here...but yes, it is rather Gadget-like (though I've also heard direct comparison to the British default road font, Transport--particularly in the shapes of lowercase "a" and "l", interestingly).

The minor (relatively speaking) kvetch I have re Clearview is that it's a proprietary font with Proprietary Adobe-Esque Pricing (as is Rawlinson, done by the same foundry)--whereas the FHWA/"Highway Gothic" family and Clarendon were public domain. That said, the highway departments can probably afford it :D

/there's actually a semi-complete list of various sans-serif fonts that are used in public transport including BOTH Helvetica and Helvetica Neue
//cannot think of Helvetica Neue without tittering, just because of a friend's rants on how a group they worked with standardised on Helvetica Neue (complete with Nasalisation of HateTM on the Neue, as if regular Helvetica wasn't good enough for them)
 
2012-06-19 05:48:50 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: as if regular Helvetica wasn't good enough for them


There are differences, and Helvetica Neue is a better font. Your friend should think of Helvetica as a buggy first release, and Neue as the bug-fixed v1.04.
 
2012-06-19 05:51:54 PM  

Great Porn Dragon


Happy to give you the opportunity and I learned something new today. Nice!
 
2012-06-19 05:57:13 PM  

theorellior: Great Porn Dragon: as if regular Helvetica wasn't good enough for them

There are differences, and Helvetica Neue is a better font. Your friend should think of Helvetica as a buggy first release, and Neue as the bug-fixed v1.04.


I know that...you know that. :D Most folks, however, don't (and if you try to explain to them they look at you about like how the Pakled (on ST:TNG) would look at you if you were trying to discuss nuclear physics, or fontography, or anything more complicated than the concept of Making Things Go)...which was the situation that the friend was in during the rants (they honestly thought it was just some variety of Helvetica, and didn't understand why the graphic arts department specified what was (to them) just a flavour of Helvetica).

Then again, I run into the "Pakled look" on a lot of things. Fontography, sign-geeking, graphics design, amateur radio stuff... *le sigh*

/had to explain to my SO why the AIGA Stick Figure Person is often affectionately known as "Helvetica Man"
//it's because AIGA Stick Figure Person is about as ubiquitous in symbol contexts as Helvetica (as opposed to Helvetica Neue) is in printed contexts
 
2012-06-19 06:00:56 PM  

luidprand: I have hated Helvetica with a deep passion ever since the 1st edition AD&D DM Guide (the one with the efreet on the cover). I swear that book is to blame for my shiatty eyesight. Then, later on, I used to hang around alt.religion.kibology and got the proper language to express my disgust with that devil of a font.


Probably WAY out of my depth among the font geeks in here, but I do believe the first-edition AD&D books used Futura.
 
2012-06-19 06:06:42 PM  

theorellior: pdkl95: The font style may be nice, but the horrible half-bright-pixel fuzz on the edge of the glyphs makes my eyes think it's not in the same depth-of-field and try to refocus constantly. Especially compared to what it looks like when properly rendered.

I dunno, the tight spacing of the top curves of both the "a" and the "f" are driving me nuts no matter how you render it.


I'd agree, with the addition of the slant in the "e" being farking unsettling when you run across it at 3AM, half-asleep.

/it's still somewhat nice idea, though. Certainly seen way worse...
 
2012-06-19 06:16:23 PM  
MonkeyAngst: luidprand: I have hated Helvetica with a deep passion ever since the 1st edition AD&D DM Guide (the one with the efreet on the cover). I swear that book is to blame for my shiatty eyesight. Then, later on, I used to hang around alt.religion.kibology and got the proper language to express my disgust with that devil of a font.

Probably WAY out of my depth among the font geeks in here, but I do believe the first-edition AD&D books used Futura.


Yeah, it's Futura. 2Ed switched to a serifed font (Garamond?), and all for the better.

/ Futura's good for several things
// Body text is not one of them
 
2012-06-19 06:21:06 PM  

Victoly: MonkeyAngst: luidprand: I have hated Helvetica with a deep passion ever since the 1st edition AD&D DM Guide (the one with the efreet on the cover). I swear that book is to blame for my shiatty eyesight. Then, later on, I used to hang around alt.religion.kibology and got the proper language to express my disgust with that devil of a font.

Probably WAY out of my depth among the font geeks in here, but I do believe the first-edition AD&D books used Futura.

Yeah, it's Futura. 2Ed switched to a serifed font (Garamond?), and all for the better.

/ Futura's good for several things
// Body text is not one of them


Maybe they cheaped out and went with Baramond.
 
2012-06-19 06:24:53 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org

Good movie. It's actually about the font.
 
2012-06-19 06:28:16 PM  

highendmighty: hp6sa: I enjoy Trebuchet. Because Fark You, that's why.

/plus trebuchets are cool.

Trebuchet is so last era. I upgraded to Cannon.

www.modernprimate.com

Approves.....
 
2012-06-19 06:32:36 PM  
Yes, Armin, fonts older than you are EXACTLY like rotary phones and old computer languages. Because they're 'technology,' and all technology older than you is wrong and bad.
 
2012-06-19 06:35:31 PM  
Suck it, haters!
farm3.staticflickr.com
 
2012-06-19 06:44:20 PM  

moothemagiccow: l. See how aIl these Ietters Iook basicaIIy the sarne despite a pIethora of rnisspeIIings? That's why HELVETlCA is annoying.


Um.. no, I don't see your point at all. I see the errors, but I don't see how that's relevant to the font. Maybe it is for you. The letters would 'look the same' in any other font, too. Most of them, anyway.
 
2012-06-19 06:51:36 PM  
When you are writing a paper, you pick three basic fonts, one serif, one sans-serif, and one monspace. That's it, unless you are writing a document that requires specialized characters, e.g. scientific symbols that are not normally found in a typical font set. Each of these three font sets will come in normal, bold, italic, and (sometimes) bold-italic). There are variations of these, but you should almost never use them. So your font sets could be Times Roman, Helvetica, and courier.

If you are using more fonts that listed above, you are almost guaranteed to be doing it wrong. Even with these limitations you could easily end up with the "ransom note" look if you do not use proper constraints when writing your document.

Use your serif font for the body text because a sans-serif font more easily causes eye fatique, which is probably why legal documents are almost always written with a sans-serif font (lawyers are assholes). Titles, headings, and such are typical written with a san-serif font, although it can be acceptable to use a serif font. Section heading are typical 1.4 times the size of the body text (e.g. 14 points when the body is 10 points) and can be bolded if the font is not "heavy". Use the monospace font for special cases, e.g. quotes that are NOT embedded in the paragraph or code samples. Italics are for quotes and such and should be rare. Bold is to make something stand out, and should be even rare than italics. If you use bold-italics, seriously reconsider what you are doing. NEVER underline bold or italic text.

There is never a good excuse to use more than one type of each font, so if your document includes both Times Roman and Century Schoolbook, you farked up.

And finally, Ariel is Helvetica. There is not all that much difference between the two. Font faces can not be copyrighted, but their names can be, and usually are (unless the laws on that have been changed in the last few years).
 
2012-06-19 06:53:35 PM  
Book Antigua, you cretins. Book Antigua!!
 
2012-06-19 06:57:10 PM  

highendmighty: hp6sa: I enjoy Trebuchet. Because Fark You, that's why.

/plus trebuchets are cool.

Trebuchet is so last era. I upgraded to Cannon.


You're not using Laser by now?
 
2012-06-19 07:01:18 PM  

moothemagiccow: busy chillin': I like Helvetica. I hardly ever use it though. But there are many other fonts to be mad about people using.

/f*ck comic sans forever
//and yes, if you want people to actually read what you are saying (on paper), use a serif font.

Nonsense. Take a look at any book that's not a novel. You think magazines are designed not to be read? fark, look at boxes, a billboard, or anything printed on what's all around you. Look at any piece of electronics, your keyboard, your watch, etc. Maybe serif fonts are easier to read for longer periods up close, and that's why they're in novels, but saying the printed word must be serif is a stupid rule.


I think you misunderstood what he said. He's specifically talking about 'reading' as longer strings of words. As a general (but not absolute) rule, serif fonts are easier to read for longer passages, so they are preferred for things like novels. That obviously does not include things like keycaps.

Magazines are a special case, because some magazines are designed from cover to cover, with even articles being set up like glossy ads. That leads to all manner of font choices for them. More broadly, though, those designers (or their bosses) can and do make bad choices sometimes.
 
2012-06-19 07:03:17 PM  

kukukupo: I'm bringing comic sans back.


No no no... You're supposed to be using Comic Sans ironically.

/Lucida man, myself
 
2012-06-19 07:09:27 PM  

Treygreen13: Victoly: MonkeyAngst: luidprand: I have hated Helvetica with a deep passion ever since the 1st edition AD&D DM Guide (the one with the efreet on the cover). I swear that book is to blame for my shiatty eyesight. Then, later on, I used to hang around alt.religion.kibology and got the proper language to express my disgust with that devil of a font.

Probably WAY out of my depth among the font geeks in here, but I do believe the first-edition AD&D books used Futura.

Yeah, it's Futura. 2Ed switched to a serifed font (Garamond?), and all for the better.

/ Futura's good for several things
// Body text is not one of them

Maybe they cheaped out and went with Baramond.


No, wait, I think I totally farked up. I think it uses Frutiger, which is not a serifed font, although it is readable.

/ Or maybe only for 2nd Ed Revised
// Going totally by memory here
 
2012-06-19 07:11:04 PM  
Great Porn Dragon: busy chillin': Great Porn Dragon

WOW! Nice. it is Clearview. Gadget has similar "a" and "l" (lowercase L)

This may actually be the one and only instance on Fark where my being an incorrigible sign-geek (to the point of it being mild annoyance to others!) is actually USEFUL :D

And yeah, I'd seen pics of signs (largely in Pennsylvania and Texas, two states that have their own "state MUTCDs" and thus have their own standards for signage and such) using Clearview before, so recognised what it was when it started showing up like a bad rash here...but yes, it is rather Gadget-like (though I've also heard direct comparison to the British default road font, Transport--particularly in the shapes of lowercase "a" and "l", interestingly).


They've been popping up a lot out here near Tucson. Basically every sign between Picacho and Cortaro Road uses Clearview since they added a lane a couple years ago and replaced the signs in the process. They even had old and new signs up at the same time in a couple places. It was neat to see the comparison. The thing I don't like about it (or maybe its implementation) is that it uses monospaced numbers with much too wide spacing, resulting in waaaayyyy too much greenspace between numbers.
 
2012-06-19 07:12:04 PM  
All public signage should be converted to Fajita, and Lithos.
 
2012-06-19 07:20:52 PM  

OgreMagi: And finally, Ariel is Helvetica. There is not all that much difference between the two.


Get thee behind me! Back to the pit with you.
 
2012-06-19 07:23:28 PM  
I'll just cut random letters out of magazines and use that. Thank you very much
 
2012-06-19 07:34:55 PM  

Surool: All public signage should be converted to Fajita, and Lithos.


Back when everyone and their brother was using Lithos in all manner of signage, advertising, brochures and packaging, I wanted to make a T-shirt that said, "Carol Twombley must die" typeset in Lithos.
 
2012-06-19 07:42:05 PM  

theorellior: Surool: All public signage should be converted to Fajita, and Lithos.

Back when everyone and their brother was using Lithos in all manner of signage, advertising, brochures and packaging, I wanted to make a T-shirt that said, "Carol Twombley must die" typeset in Lithos.


My boss bought Lithos on the same day everyone else did when it first came out. We started using it as a headline font... and it was EVERYWHERE before the magazines with our ads hit the street. We replaced it immediately.

We started using Agency for a while... which didn't catch on for a long time. Now every movie poster uses it.

We eventually landed on Knockout for its 5 million weights for all situations.
 
2012-06-19 07:46:20 PM  
I was far more disappointed by how papyrus (which is still a cool looking font in my opinion) started getting used whenever anyone was selling something old, Egyptian, holistic or organic.
 
2012-06-19 07:52:21 PM  

Mercutio74: I was far more disappointed by how papyrus (which is still a cool looking font in my opinion) started getting used whenever anyone was selling something old, Egyptian, holistic or organic.


Yeah.

farm2.staticflickr.com
 
2012-06-19 07:57:21 PM  
And on this weeks episode of comic sans...

3.bp.blogspot.com
Lol, prison!

madartlab.com

www.businesspundit.com


And i dont even know who this woman is, but i would actively campaign against her entirely based on font choice.

blog.infotrends.com
 
2012-06-19 07:57:23 PM  

pdkl95: I'd agree, with the addition of the slant in the "e" being farking unsettling when you run across it at 3AM, half-asleep.


It's a weird idea to shoehorn a humanist detail into a very geometric font, but here we are.
 
2012-06-19 08:01:25 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Treygreen13: PanicAttack: I hate Arial because lowercase ls look like uppercase Is

It's a flaw in the font but how often do you have a standalone lower-case L?

You don't. But when Kim Jong Il looks like Kim Jong ll, or the word "Ill" looks like "lll", there is a problem with your font.


If those things are confusing for you, then I think the font may not be the only problem.
 
2012-06-19 08:07:21 PM  
One more.

todayilearned.co.uk
 
2012-06-19 08:10:54 PM  
But Helvetica Standard's my favorite part of Nichijou!

/wait, what?
 
2012-06-19 08:15:19 PM  
i.ytimg.com

That's fontist!
 
2012-06-19 08:18:32 PM  

Millennium: jonny_q: Ubuntu/Linux has some good programming fonts. I like Deja Vu Sans and Ubuntu Mono. I also like Microsoft's Consolas, and I like it enough that I've installed it on Linux.

I've been trying out Terminus recently, and I've really been enjoying it. Then again, I do my coding in vim with the zenburn color scheme, so maybe I'm some kind of luddite.


I do my coding in vim using a light-on-dark color scheme that I've tweaked bit by bit from the Konsole defaults, so we're playing for the same team. I'll look up Terminus tonight or tomorrow. I think I use zenburn when I'm using gvim, but I don't often use gvim.

Use what's good for you, but for programming, and easy-to-read font is important. You want a very clear monospace font that can be read as small as possible so you can fit more on the screen. It's important enough to look for what works best.
 
2012-06-19 08:29:01 PM  
It pleases me that a font thread got almost 200 replies.
 
2012-06-19 08:33:46 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: As it concerns identity design we all recognize Helvetica as a bastion of the rise of the practice of corporate identity in the 1960s, deployed with unrelenting passion by the likes of Massimo Vignelli and Unimark in the U.S. and Total Design in Europe

Do we now? All of us? Because I recognize it as the logical conclusion of post-modern corporate multi-nationalism within the context of the Marshall Plan and the pro-Democracy movement in general, especially as an allegory to the rise of fashionistas such as Calvin Klein and artists such as Andy Warhol.

So there.



*clap* Nice.


Also, any opinion qualified with the statement "Am I wrong? Probably." probably shouldn't have been offered in the first place.
 
2012-06-19 08:33:47 PM  

NowhereMon: First they came for the comic-sans but I didn't speak up because I use Times New Roman...


Came to say this
 
2012-06-19 08:33:53 PM  

theorellior: It pleases me that a font thread got almost 200 replies.


I'm half pleased and half disappointed because I posted in it. But then again, at this point I'm just hoping to put it over 200.
 
2012-06-19 08:44:58 PM  

jonny_q: Millennium: jonny_q: Ubuntu/Linux has some good programming fonts. I like Deja Vu Sans and Ubuntu Mono. I also like Microsoft's Consolas, and I like it enough that I've installed it on Linux.

I've been trying out Terminus recently, and I've really been enjoying it. Then again, I do my coding in vim with the zenburn color scheme, so maybe I'm some kind of luddite.

I do my coding in vim using a light-on-dark color scheme that I've tweaked bit by bit from the Konsole defaults, so we're playing for the same team. I'll look up Terminus tonight or tomorrow. I think I use zenburn when I'm using gvim, but I don't often use gvim.

Use what's good for you, but for programming, and easy-to-read font is important. You want a very clear monospace font that can be read as small as possible so you can fit more on the screen. It's important enough to look for what works best.


The one thing that can unite geeks who differ over their font preferences is their universal hatred of those farking emacs using bastards.
 
2012-06-19 08:51:00 PM  
Screw that. I'm going to use extra Helvetica from now on.
 
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