JohnBigBootay: Doogles4221: // It was obvious that the saints were looking for injuries, not a clean game

Steeler fan who was rooting for the favre-led vikes and watched the whole game says that is utter horseshiat. The saints played like they always played and just like everyone else plays. If there is anything to complain about in that game it's that the refs missed a couple of calls - as usual. That said, whining about the refs is also un-classypart and parcel of being a Vikings fan.

FTFY

justtray: Blows my mind people think there isn't stats showing it worked. They won the Superbowl... Did you watch that NFC Championship game? I don't think just Vikings fans thought their intent that entire game was to hurt Favre, and they did. He never played the same after that game. Warner retired.

Perhaps we disagree on what the word 'stats' means. The plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, I watched the game. I also watched Roethlisberger be hammered mercilessly at the end of last year because of his hurt ankle. Of course they were trying to hurt Favre. Linemen have been trying to hurt Favre for twenty years. But the insinuation that they'd risk a game changing penalty in hopes they refs would miss the call so they could make some extra money (less money by the way, than a league fine for an illegal hit) just doesn't pass the smell test. Like I've said from the beginning - if the hits are legal, there's no problem. If the hits are illegal then the fines/penalties that SHOULD be generated by them would easily outweigh the bounty payout.

Hey New Orleans Saint coaches! Here's your bounty...

JohnBigBootay: Like I've said from the beginning - if the hits are legal, there's no problem.

If the 49ers were trying to knock Eli Manning out of the NFC Championship game, which they admitted, it stands to reason the the 49ers were also trying to knock Saints players out of the Divisional game the week prior.

However, the 49ers hit on Pierre Thomas was clearly legal, and I hope the 49ers defender got a nice little payday out of it.

buckeyebrain: basemetal: As a big OU fan, and an Adrian Peterson fan, the bounty didn't make him fumble the damn ball.

/there's your ball game

Uhhhh, no. The Vikings were in a position to win in regulation. They were tied and in FG range, but BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE BRETT FAVRE couldn't stand to let somebody else be the hero, so he forced a pass across his body to the middle of the field, that was picked off, and forced overtime. The rest, as they say, is history.

It's not all him. To quote myself:

5 fumbles, 3 turned over. The INT. 12 men on the field. The non-called High/Low hit. The refs to cap it off in overtime. No sacks on Brees with Allen, WIlliams Wall and Ray Edwards on that line.

WE. FOUND. EVERY. POSSIBLE. WAY. TO. LOSE. THAT. GAME.

To act like ONE thing was what killed us is not taking into account every BAD thing that got us there and took us home.

robsul82: litespeed74: Hey New Orleans Saint coaches! Here's your bounty...

[cdn0.sbnation.com image 620x400]

LOL...if there was a bounty on him, you'd think they would've figured out a way to do it long before he fitted them for clownshoes. Our defense has been mocked for years that kind of shiat, and at the same time we're bloodthirsty monsters. It's an interesting age to live in.

The only for sure bounty on him is for Child Support.

/and only because it still amuses me

IAmRight: Yeah, those guys had never indicated that they might retire soon prior to those games.

I'm pretty sure the "hit" on Warner was a clean block as Warner was closing in on the defender returning the interception? Players get blocked like that ON. EVERY. PLAY.

One thing Saints fans need to take comfort in is, the NFL didn't take away wins and the NFL didn't hand out asterisks. In fact, the NFL didn't even hand out punishments for ANY on-field actions, not for the Saints nor any other team or players that admitted to actively trying to knock opposing players out of the game, other than the normal fines that are issues as part of customary post-game review.

Don't worry, the NFL likes their game as violent as we do.

justtray: JohnBigBootay: rka: JohnBigBootay: Doogles4221: // It was obvious that the saints were looking for injuries, not a clean game

Steeler fan who was rooting for the favre-led vikes and watched the whole game says that is utter horseshiat. The saints played like they always played and just like everyone else plays. If there is anything to complain about in that game it's that the refs missed a couple of calls - as usual. That said, whining about the refs is also un-classy.

As the NFL says, they don't need to find evidence that the Saints were successfully collecting bounties or even competent in their nastiness. All of this "I watched the game!" or "I went back to the tape and no one was carted off!" is just a waste of time.

The NFL just needs to find evidence that they were offered.

Sure. Hey, you won't find me arguing that it wasn't wrong or that severe penalties weren't in order. It was wrong and it deserved penalties. I just think Goodell went too far in what, at the end of the day, was simply bad PR and empty macho locker room bullshiat. In my opinion I don't think a single player was injured that would not have been injured absent the bounty program. The program was certainly wrong - I just don't think it actually accomplished its stated goal. If we had statistical evidence that you were more likely to be injured vs the saints because of this program I would feel differently. I'd levy a severe punishment for people planning to murder someone. I'd levy an even more severe punishment for those who actually accomplished it.

Kurt Warner. Brett Favre.

Blows my mind people think there isn't stats showing it worked. They won the Superbowl... Did you watch that NFC Championship game? I don't think just Vikings fans thought their intent that entire game was to hurt Favre, and they did. He never played the same after that game. Warner retired.

Cool, now name someone who you couldn't argue away their injuries as "old people get hurt playing sports".

Nabb1: Who were those players who admitted to that?

Um, what? Players from BOTH teams that participated in this year's NFC Championship Game??

robsul82: Jim from Saint Paul: The only for sure bounty on him is for Child Support.

/and only because it still amuses me

The crotch grab will never stop amusing me, lol.

Indeed. That shiat could have hapened to the Vikes and I'd still be giggling.

Hell, i still post the Arizona "NOOOOOOOOO" call on here because putting it on Tecmo bowl was AWESOME.

Slow To Return: Nabb1: Who were those players who admitted to that?

Um, what? Players from BOTH teams that participated in this year's NFC Championship Game??

Well, wait.... Unless they WERE fined for their post-game comments? Were they?

I see this thread is progressing just like every other Saints-related thread.


Slow To Return: IAmRight: Yeah, those guys had never indicated that they might retire soon prior to those games.

I'm pretty sure the "hit" on Warner was a clean block as Warner was closing in on the defender returning the interception? Players get blocked like that ON. EVERY. PLAY.

Ooh, sanity regarding the Warner hit, from non-Saints fans. Thank you.

justtray: 35k doesn't pass the smell test? Agree to disagree then.

It's like everyone thinks all the players are making millions. Most of them are making the minimum, which if memory serves, is 600k. That's pre taxes, pre entourage, pre baby momma. The 35k is under the table, not taxed. Yes, it is a significant incentive as evidenced by the results.

There were fines. Hargrove was fined 5k for his hit on Favre that apparently netted him being caught on tape saying "pay me." That is if I have the events correct, which could be a little off. At this point, we're just dissecting one small piece of hay in the entire pile.


Here you go - these are all minimums for first offense by the way...

Player Safety Rules and/or Flagrant Personal Foul (including, without limitation)
Note: Suspension or fine; severity to be determined by degree of violation
Striking/Kicking/Kneeing: $7,500 / $15,000
Horse Collar Tackle: $15,000 / $30,000
Face Mask: $7,500 / $15,000
Leg Whip: $15,000 / $30,000
Late Hit: $7,500 / $15,000
Spearing: $20,000 / $40,000
Impermissible Use of the Helmet (including illegal launching): $20,000 / $40,000
Hit on Defenseless Player: $20,000 / $40,000
Blindside Block: $20,000 / $40,000
Roughing the Passer: $15,000 / $30,000
Low Block: $7,500 / $15,000
Chop Block: $7,500 / $15,000

I doubt many saints starting defenders were making the minimum but maybe there were a couple. And it seems to be completely lost on you that every player on the teams loses a higher playoff share if they lose what was a very close game as they very likely would have had there been even a single late hit/ personal foul called that wasn't. And I think we all know by now that little to no money actually changed hands - certainly not 35k.

justtray: 1. The fine amounts are irrelevant.

Dude, you were the one who brought up the amounts of the bounty as an extremely attractive incentive.

2. The argument that they were more incentivized to win based on the NFC championship payout - not buying it.

I'm getting lost here - is money an incentive or not? It seems like you base your answer on whether or not it serves your argument.

3. No money changing hands - REALLY? We ALL know this? Based on what facts?

I don't want to be overly snarky here but it seems like you could stand to read up a bit on the subject we are discussing.

robsul82: Well, that's 1 of the 3 Vilma sources denying he ever said it. - PFT

That's true, because Ornstein told the NFL that Vilma offered "two rolls of 5's" for knocking Favre out, not "$10,000".

justtray: If it was't effective, they wouldn't have run it.

Heh. Just like the war on drugs I suppose. I mean they do actually confiscate like 1% of the pot that crosses the border. Look, they shouldn't have done this thing that they definitely did - no argument. But you're not going to convince me they received a competitive advantage from it. Legal hits wouldn't have made any difference because they are... legal. Illegal hits - especially during the sequence we are all usually discussing - would likely have led to the loss of the game if the refs had called the game properly, and thus been counterproductive. And over the years the program was in existence one would expect to see heightened penalties and/or injuries vs the saints - it ain't there.

justtray: It's like everyone thinks all the players are making millions. Most of them are making the minimum, which if memory serves, is 600k. That's pre taxes, pre entourage, pre baby momma. The 35k is under the table, not taxed. Yes, it is a significant incentive as evidenced by the results.

The players capable of making those hits ARE making millions per year. Bounties aren't about the incentive so much as the altered mindset they create.

justtray: It doesn't seem like you're trying to defend their actions, so no offense, but we don't really have anything to argue.

Fair enough. I've never tried to defend it - it was monumentally stupid. My argument has always been that yes, there was a program. But in my heart of hearts I do not believe it actually bore any fruit. And even if it had been effective it would have ultimately been counterproductive. Cartoffs or not - Legal hits are legal and there's not a hell of a lot the NFL can do about them. And illegal hits in a properly called game are self-defeating for the team because of penalties and for the player financially because of fines. One could argue that knocking out a starting qb early would pencil out in the long run but that never happened.

At the end of the day these guys are all just football players. Some of them are jerks and some of them aren't but I really don't think any of them would intentionally and with malice aforethought attempt to end another player's career. I'm probably naive but I just don't.

robsul82: justtray: Honestly, I have no interest in debating whether or not they got a competitive advantage. It's not something that can be proven either way...they cheated

I know, you already got tied in a knot trying to insist that they did, now you just want to be free to say that anyway.

LOL

justtray: scandalrag: robsul82: Jubeebee: The NFL figures a lot of people like Bert Faver still, so they keep pointing out that the evil Saints hurt Ol' Mr. Wrangler.

It'd be amusing if Vilma's lawyer can get past the CBA in court and calls Favre, and Favre reiterates his "it's football, I don't think any less of those guys" comments to PK. It'll probably never happen, but it'd make me laugh.

The CBA has no bearing on whether Vilma has a cause of action. You can't bargain away your rights against an intentional tort. He'll be able to call anyone he wants. He'll lose because the burden of proof is so high. If he can't prove that there is no possible way that Goodell could possibly think that there was a bounty program and that Vilma might have participated in it, with every piece of evidence viewed in the most favorable light for the defendant, Vilma loses on summary judgment. If Vilma wants to throw away another $200,000 on top of the $8 million he's losing already, good for him. What's another 5%?

\They grow them extra stupid at the U.

KABOOM goes the smackdown.

I expect no replies.

Sarcasm, I love it.

And you know bandwagon rob can't resist to show his idiocy.