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(Some Taran)   "Brave" will debut a new sound system, Dolby Atmos, which can play up to 128 different sounds as it drives your car into a river to kill you   (animatedviews.com) divider line 174
    More: Cool, Thomas Dolby, Atlanta Braves  
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10304 clicks; posted to Geek » on 19 Jun 2012 at 1:18 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-19 03:43:01 PM

fanbladesaresharp: Jozabad: wildcardjack: Cuchulane: When they develop a sound system with audience chatter cancelling, I'll go back to the theater.

What you do is drive to a very very white part of town. So white the only way you'll hear people talking during the movie is if they've been federally required to bus black people in.

No, white people talk during movies too. They also text. Sorry, try again.

I saw Prometheus the night it came out and the pasty-white 20-somethings with probably their first ever girlfriends would not STFU blabbering on about who killed who in Call of Duty during the movie.


I have yet to see this behavior in a movie theater ever. I must be the luckiest guy alive or the people on Fark who biatch about this all the time are the unluckiest.
 
2012-06-19 03:56:10 PM

ChipNASA: SpectroBoy: ChrisDe: Damn. My home theater only has 127 speakers.

ChrisDe: Damn. My home theater only has 127 speakers.

Not me. I finally got my googlephonic system with the moon rock needle. It sounds OK.

That's cause you have shiatty cables my man.
You have *got* to have these or go home to your cardboard box

[www.pearcable.com image 500x500]

/12 foot pair -ONLY $7250


I'm going to need a new analog tube amp to go with my Jensen speakers.
 
2012-06-19 04:07:43 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: Can one actually "rock" out with an accordion?



25.media.tumblr.com
HATERS GONNA HATE
 
2012-06-19 04:10:46 PM

aphyd: Ghastly: Cythraul: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Not to be confused with Dolby, Thomas, which will blind you with science

SCIENCE!

Came for this! Leaving satisfied.

Also...
[a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net image 640x426]
Me rocking out on stage on accordion with Thomas Dolby (only 6 sound objects).

Is that at the Mod Club in Toronto? I was at that show.


I know, I saw you in the audience and it made my kilt move.
 
2012-06-19 04:16:27 PM

AngryJailhouseFistfark: Ghastly: Cythraul: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Not to be confused with Dolby, Thomas, which will blind you with science

SCIENCE!

Came for this! Leaving satisfied.

Also...
[a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net image 640x426]
Me rocking out on stage on accordion with Thomas Dolby (only 6 sound objects).

I love you, Goodbye?


Just drove my dirty Datsun into the Gulf of Mexico.
 
2012-06-19 04:17:31 PM

frepnog: i spent a couple hours last night watching Iron Man 2 on my home theater system. HD video supplied by a Nvidia 550, Dolby Surround, and to my ears sounded farking amazing. 6 speakers (well 7 actually, since I have two center channels connected to double the sound, since it seems in current films dialog gets buried under sound effects and music).

i just don't think this crap is necessary. neat, perhaps.


You just need to disable the normalizer. It boosts some parts of the audio stream and quiets down other parts, with a proper sound system this isn't necessary, you just need to run it at almost full volume. Could also set the balance to boost the output to the center speaker.

/My home theater setup is better than being at the movies
 
2012-06-19 04:19:07 PM

fanbladesaresharp:
I saw Prometheus the night it came out and the pasty-white 20-somethings with probably their first ever girlfriends would not STFU blabbering on about who killed who in Call of Duty during the movie.


And the sad thing was it was probably the most intelligent dialogue of that entire movie.
 
2012-06-19 04:21:10 PM
The Audience Is Hemorraging [tm RiffTrax]
 
2012-06-19 04:21:49 PM

Ghastly:
Me rocking out on stage on accordion with Thomas Dolby (only 6 sound objects).


I was at that show!
 
2012-06-19 04:23:54 PM

AdolfOliverPanties: Can one actually "rock" out with an accordion?


farm8.staticflickr.com
 
2012-06-19 04:26:12 PM

CavalierEternal: AdolfOliverPanties: Can one actually "rock" out with an accordion?

[farm8.staticflickr.com image 427x640]


Oh man! I sooooo want one of those Roland physical modelled accordions.
 
2012-06-19 04:27:55 PM

rpm: Cuchulane: When they develop a sound system with audience chatter cancelling, I'll go back to the theater.

It's called an "usher", try going to a place with one or more of those installed.


A theater with ushers on duty that will speak up to people talking during a movie? That's called "Fantasy Land".
 
2012-06-19 04:28:25 PM

Ghastly: fanbladesaresharp:
I saw Prometheus the night it came out and the pasty-white 20-somethings with probably their first ever girlfriends would not STFU blabbering on about who killed who in Call of Duty during the movie.

And the sad thing was it was probably the most intelligent dialogue of that entire movie.


Well to be fair, it is hard to hold a discussion with space eels diving down your throats.Or should that be space sperm with teeth, being that everyone that "ate" one was impregnated with them?
 
2012-06-19 04:30:04 PM

frepnog: TheGhostofFarkPast: frepnog: TheGhostofFarkPast: Bubba_the_Hutt: frepnog: i spent a couple hours last night watching Iron Man 2 on my home theater system. HD video supplied by a Nvidia 550, Dolby Surround, and to my ears sounded farking amazing. 6 speakers (well 7 actually, since I have two center channels connected to double the sound, since it seems in current films dialog gets buried under sound effects and music).

i just don't think this crap is necessary. neat, perhaps.

Instead of having two speakers you could just increase the volume of your center channel.


That's what I did on my marantz system, it can all be manually adjusted through either the web or a phone app and I always have to turn up the middle channel because as he said the vocals get pushed below everything else.

I personally really enjoy surround sound and I think a lot of bands need to take advantage of it more and I wish more wound think in terms of the whole venue and not just stereo. I was hoping SACD's would take off more than they did because they were able to provide a very nice full sound all the way around you. Nothing beats listening to Dredg's "el cielo" SACD, which was made at Lucas Skywalker ranch, and drinking a new brew to calm the nerves.

yeah, no. I can turn the center all the way up and it would still get drowned. simply adding a second center channel fixed the problem nicely, and I don't have to keep adjusting the goddamned volume (turn it way up to hear people talking during quiet scenes, and then BOOM BOOM BOOM quickly turn the sound down because something exploded, the music went psycho, guns start blazing, ect).

That dolby surround doesn't have an option for dynamic environments so you don't have overtly loud or quiet? I understand it's a computer and it's not as robust as a dedicated amp like I have but you would think it would have some check box to help level out that crap out.

i run the pc thru my home theater receiver. have played with every setting i coul ...


Its your sound card and/or speaker setup. The logic board for my speakers tends to play dialog/music vocals/etc very loud and crisp when compared to SFX/etc. Its the way it reads the signal and amplifies parts of the audio spectrum. I play movies/games/music in 5.1 with normalizer disabled and it sounds perfect every time, regardless of DTS/AC3/MP3 source. I tuned the balance/fade for my speakers once and haven't had to touch it.
 
2012-06-19 04:35:13 PM
www.atmosenergy.com
This could get confusing.
 
2012-06-19 04:36:04 PM

Thats_Not_My_Baby: bazzanoid: [cdn.9laughs.com image 624x558]

I've always wanted to know- what kind of bird is that?!


Her name is Sarah and I believe she is an Australian zookeeper.
 
2012-06-19 04:38:35 PM
All this sounds like a fancy way of saying they turned up the volume another 20%. Farking theaters are getting too loud. I already bring ear plugs to the movies.

/My lawn, please be making your way off it.
 
2012-06-19 04:45:30 PM
I will be seeing Brave this weekend so I am getting a kick out of this thread. At the drive-in though, so I don't know how this affects me. Unless I glue extra speakers to the roof...
 
2012-06-19 04:49:41 PM

Cuchulane: When they develop a sound system with audience chatter cancelling, I'll go back to the theater.


Gus, Don't be Burgess Meredith on the Twilight Zone.
 
2012-06-19 05:04:03 PM

Ghastly: aphyd: Ghastly: Cythraul: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Not to be confused with Dolby, Thomas, which will blind you with science

SCIENCE!

Came for this! Leaving satisfied.

Also...
[a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net image 640x426]
Me rocking out on stage on accordion with Thomas Dolby (only 6 sound objects).

Is that at the Mod Club in Toronto? I was at that show.

I know, I saw you in the audience and it made my kilt move.


I had the same effect on Frankie Yankovic.
 
2012-06-19 05:04:44 PM

TheGhostofFarkPast: Bubba_the_Hutt: frepnog: i spent a couple hours last night watching Iron Man 2 on my home theater system. HD video supplied by a Nvidia 550, Dolby Surround, and to my ears sounded farking amazing. 6 speakers (well 7 actually, since I have two center channels connected to double the sound, since it seems in current films dialog gets buried under sound effects and music).

i just don't think this crap is necessary. neat, perhaps.

Instead of having two speakers you could just increase the volume of your center channel.


That's what I did on my marantz system, it can all be manually adjusted through either the web or a phone app and I always have to turn up the middle channel because as he said the vocals get pushed below everything else.

I personally really enjoy surround sound and I think a lot of bands need to take advantage of it more and I wish more wound think in terms of the whole venue and not just stereo. I was hoping SACD's would take off more than they did because they were able to provide a very nice full sound all the way around you. Nothing beats listening to Dredg's "el cielo" SACD, which was made at Lucas Skywalker ranch, and drinking a new brew to calm the nerves.


Most recordings nowadays are actually mastered for car stereos. Since thats where people do like 90% of their non headphone listening, and why bother mastering specifically for shiatty earbuds.
 
2012-06-19 05:05:40 PM
DAMN it, I just had a room built around my new 7.1 system....now I have to burn it down and start over....
 
2012-06-19 05:07:02 PM

Langdon Alger: Chip Douglas: I got you the big screen TV, deluxe karaoke machine, and THX quality sound that would make George Lucas cream in his pants!


Now THAT'S a solid.
 
2012-06-19 05:16:06 PM

frepnog: i just don't think this crap is necessary. neat, perhaps.


That can be said for the entire entertainment industry. People watch movies because they are neat, not because they are necessary.

PsyLord: Can the human ear even discern 128 different sounds that are being played simultaneously?


Unlikely, but the human eye not being able to discern images moving really fast doesn't seem to keep people from going to the movies. It's kinda the entire point, really.
 
2012-06-19 05:16:40 PM

Thats_Not_My_Baby: bazzanoid: bazzanoid: Thats_Not_My_Baby: bazzanoid: [cdn.9laughs.com image 624x558]

I've always wanted to know- what kind of bird is that?!

Eastern White Pelican / Great White Pelican.

/or pink-backed pelican. the pure yellow beak suggests it's the pink-backed, but the yellow blaze on the chest says eastern white.....
//either way, it's a pelican

I guess I never realized pelicans were so damn big.


Glorified version of a pelican.
Glorified version of a pelican...

/Eddie Vedder was an ornithologist
 
2012-06-19 05:26:52 PM

frepnog: yeah, no. I can turn the center all the way up and it would still get drowned. simply adding a second center channel fixed the problem nicely, and I don't have to keep adjusting the goddamned volume (turn it way up to hear people talking during quiet scenes, and then BOOM BOOM BOOM quickly turn the sound down because something exploded, the music went psycho, guns start blazing, ect).

i run the pc thru my home theater receiver. have played with every setting i could ...


You need a receiver with Dolby Volume. It levels out the loud and the soft, and the center channel doesn't lose clarity.

Dolby Digital and Dolby TrueHD (which Iron Man 1 was in) all allow night mode settings on most receivers. DTS & DTS-HD MA sound (which Iron Man 2 is in) do not. So Dolby came up with Dolby Volume to add this capability to non-Dolby formats.
 
MCM
2012-06-19 05:49:36 PM

Cuchulane: rpm: Cuchulane: When they develop a sound system with audience chatter cancelling, I'll go back to the theater.

It's called an "usher", try going to a place with one or more of those installed.

A theater with ushers on duty that will speak up to people talking during a movie? That's called "Fantasy Land".


After going to the Arclight, I don't know if I could go to a regular theater again. They're very strict about talking/texting during movies, but the best thing is being able to buy your tickets with reserved seats through their website. Being able to walk into the theater 5-10 minutes before the movie starts and have perfect seats waiting for you is great. I'm also right up the street from their Sherman Oaks location, which is on the list of theaters with this new sound system =)
 
2012-06-19 06:00:54 PM
Post 128
 
2012-06-19 06:00:57 PM

schattenteufel: I think this new sound system might be disorientating & dangerous.

I guess I have what one might call an... Atmos fear.


That was actually a pretty cool boardgame.

Also, Subby, I'd call you a genius except I'm in the room.
 
2012-06-19 06:09:58 PM

AllUpInYa: But that's really the only reason I go to a movie nowadays - to go to a theater with near-bowel-emptying sound.
I can stay at home to watch a movie with just dialog, with no real benefit from going to see it in a theater.


Wow. I get that. I still don't like it. But I get it.

I guess I am spoiled in that my surround system is moderately bad-ass. It's not "audiophile gold cable with pure mink covers" bad-ass, but it will tickle internal organs on occasion.
 
2012-06-19 06:10:26 PM

MCM:

After going to the Arclight, I don't know if I could go to a regular theater again. They're very strict about talking/texting during movies, but the best thing is being able to buy your tickets with reserved seats through their website. Being able to walk into the theater 5-10 minutes before the movie starts and have perfect seats waiting for you is great. I'm also right up the street from their Sherman Oaks location, which is on the list of theaters with this new sound system =)


The picture of the audience on their website says a lot. Suits?

img265.imageshack.us
 
2012-06-19 06:12:59 PM

Langdon Alger: Joel, can you come in here, please. (Looks at Stereo) Do you hear anything odd, Joel? A preponderence of bass perhaps? This is not a toy for you and your friends to play with, Joel. You will be expected to use it properly or you will not use it at all.


What the fark.
 
2012-06-19 06:30:58 PM

Uzzah: Langdon Alger: Joel, can you come in here, please. (Looks at Stereo) Do you hear anything odd, Joel? A preponderence of bass perhaps? This is not a toy for you and your friends to play with, Joel. You will be expected to use it properly or you will not use it at all.

What the fark.


Hehe.

/hookers
 
2012-06-19 06:33:07 PM

Uzzah: Langdon Alger: Joel, can you come in here, please. (Looks at Stereo) Do you hear anything odd, Joel? A preponderence of bass perhaps? This is not a toy for you and your friends to play with, Joel. You will be expected to use it properly or you will not use it at all.

What the fark.


Sometimes you just have to say "What the f#ck."
 
2012-06-19 07:15:42 PM

Ghastly: Cythraul: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Not to be confused with Dolby, Thomas, which will blind you with science

SCIENCE!

Came for this! Leaving satisfied.

Also...
[a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net image 640x426]
Me rocking out on stage on accordion with Thomas Dolby (only 6 sound objects).


LOVE IT! Is that a utilikilt?
 
2012-06-19 07:26:44 PM
So, this is Dolby Atmos?

img2-2.timeinc.net
 
2012-06-19 07:37:22 PM

SpectroBoy: fluffy2097: They can't even get a stereo mix right, and they want to add an 8th speaker?

I just wish sound engineers would stop putting the "loud stuff" a trillion decibels above the dialog. Movies are STORIES about PEOPLE, not about explosions.


Heh, I wanted to say something along those lines. I'll take a crystal-clear, well-done stereo mix over a crappy surround mix any day. On those rare occasions where anything interesting happens in the back channels at all, the theatre's sound system is still a pile of air-pumping ass. Lots of noise, no fidelity.

I get to listen to, and see, movie and TV soundtracks as part of my job. It's wild to see the dynamic range of many films, old and new. Everyone's ears are overdriven from the sudden blasts of meganoise, so theatres have their levels cranked to keep the dialogue audible. A lot of action films have sections that look like walls. One military action flick was mastered right up to one bit short of digital zero. Ears need recovery time after being hammered with 100+dB from all directions, and until they do they'll be both less sensitive and prone to overload, kind of like your eyes after looking into a bright light. I honestly worry about the hearing of many people, especially if I can tell what they're listening to thirty feet away.
 
2012-06-19 07:44:56 PM

PlatinumDragon: SpectroBoy: fluffy2097: They can't even get a stereo mix right, and they want to add an 8th speaker?

I just wish sound engineers would stop putting the "loud stuff" a trillion decibels above the dialog. Movies are STORIES about PEOPLE, not about explosions.

Heh, I wanted to say something along those lines. I'll take a crystal-clear, well-done stereo mix over a crappy surround mix any day. On those rare occasions where anything interesting happens in the back channels at all, the theatre's sound system is still a pile of air-pumping ass. Lots of noise, no fidelity.

I get to listen to, and see, movie and TV soundtracks as part of my job. It's wild to see the dynamic range of many films, old and new. Everyone's ears are overdriven from the sudden blasts of meganoise, so theatres have their levels cranked to keep the dialogue audible. A lot of action films have sections that look like walls. One military action flick was mastered right up to one bit short of digital zero. Ears need recovery time after being hammered with 100+dB from all directions, and until they do they'll be both less sensitive and prone to overload, kind of like your eyes after looking into a bright light. I honestly worry about the hearing of many people, especially if I can tell what they're listening to thirty feet away.


I call that ear-bleed situation the "Michael Bay Mix"

"F*CK THE DIALOG! I WANNA HEAR ONLY 'SPLOSIONS!!!!"
 
2012-06-19 07:46:48 PM

gingerjet: /you all know this is a Doctor Who reference right?


I hope to meet those not getting the reference on the field of battle, where I will crush the worthless life from their puny human forms. Try and get some rest.
 
2012-06-19 07:54:12 PM

Ghastly: fanbladesaresharp:
I saw Prometheus the night it came out and the pasty-white 20-somethings with probably their first ever girlfriends would not STFU blabbering on about who killed who in Call of Duty during the movie.

And the sad thing was it was probably the most intelligent dialogue of that entire movie.


Hey there l'il cobra, I don't wanna hurt you, it's just I've been running scared the whole movie but now ow ow OW OW OW MY F***ING ARM OW OW OW...
 
2012-06-19 07:59:28 PM
Now I will have to upgrade all my Monster Gold cables!

Dolby, you bastards!
 
2012-06-19 07:59:33 PM

frepnog: TheGhostofFarkPast: frepnog: TheGhostofFarkPast: Bubba_the_Hutt: frepnog: i spent a couple hours last night watching Iron Man 2 on my home theater system. HD video supplied by a Nvidia 550, Dolby Surround, and to my ears sounded farking amazing. 6 speakers (well 7 actually, since I have two center channels connected to double the sound, since it seems in current films dialog gets buried under sound effects and music).

i just don't think this crap is necessary. neat, perhaps.

Instead of having two speakers you could just increase the volume of your center channel.


That's what I did on my marantz system, it can all be manually adjusted through either the web or a phone app and I always have to turn up the middle channel because as he said the vocals get pushed below everything else.

I personally really enjoy surround sound and I think a lot of bands need to take advantage of it more and I wish more wound think in terms of the whole venue and not just stereo. I was hoping SACD's would take off more than they did because they were able to provide a very nice full sound all the way around you. Nothing beats listening to Dredg's "el cielo" SACD, which was made at Lucas Skywalker ranch, and drinking a new brew to calm the nerves.

yeah, no. I can turn the center all the way up and it would still get drowned. simply adding a second center channel fixed the problem nicely, and I don't have to keep adjusting the goddamned volume (turn it way up to hear people talking during quiet scenes, and then BOOM BOOM BOOM quickly turn the sound down because something exploded, the music went psycho, guns start blazing, ect).

That dolby surround doesn't have an option for dynamic environments so you don't have overtly loud or quiet? I understand it's a computer and it's not as robust as a dedicated amp like I have but you would think it would have some check box to help level out that crap out.

i run the pc thru my home theater receiver. have played with every setting i could find ...



Are you running off of the headphone or line output on your sound card? Do you have a sound card with surround output? If you do not have a 5.1 source or a Dolby digital source as an input to your receiver, and try to run the receiver in 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, it will sound crappy.
 
2012-06-19 08:02:10 PM

Jackpot777: gingerjet: /you all know this is a Doctor Who reference right?

I hope to meet those not getting the reference on the field of battle, where I will crush the worthless life from their puny human forms. Try and get some rest.


You mean just like the last Atmos story that had a Doctor Who joke in the headline?
 
2012-06-19 08:48:59 PM
I was vaguely interested until the only theater listed turned out to be in Dallas. Seriously? Podunksville Kansas before the third largest city in the states? Houston is once again the Rodney Dangerfield of the US.
 
rpm
2012-06-19 08:53:22 PM

Cuchulane: rpm: Cuchulane: When they develop a sound system with audience chatter cancelling, I'll go back to the theater.

It's called an "usher", try going to a place with one or more of those installed.

A theater with ushers on duty that will speak up to people talking during a movie? That's called "Fantasy Land".


Welcome to Fantasy Land, second star on right, straight on to morning^wMagnited States of America. It's the only place we'll go. Can't wait until the Dark Knight Mararthon.
 
2012-06-19 09:10:27 PM

Cyno01: TheGhostofFarkPast: Bubba_the_Hutt: frepnog: i spent a couple hours last night watching Iron Man 2 on my home theater system. HD video supplied by a Nvidia 550, Dolby Surround, and to my ears sounded farking amazing. 6 speakers (well 7 actually, since I have two center channels connected to double the sound, since it seems in current films dialog gets buried under sound effects and music).

i just don't think this crap is necessary. neat, perhaps.

Instead of having two speakers you could just increase the volume of your center channel.


That's what I did on my marantz system, it can all be manually adjusted through either the web or a phone app and I always have to turn up the middle channel because as he said the vocals get pushed below everything else.

I personally really enjoy surround sound and I think a lot of bands need to take advantage of it more and I wish more wound think in terms of the whole venue and not just stereo. I was hoping SACD's would take off more than they did because they were able to provide a very nice full sound all the way around you. Nothing beats listening to Dredg's "el cielo" SACD, which was made at Lucas Skywalker ranch, and drinking a new brew to calm the nerves.

Most recordings nowadays are actually mastered for car stereos. Since thats where people do like 90% of their non headphone listening, and why bother mastering specifically for shiatty earbuds.


The sad part is car sound systems are Quadraphonic, not Stereo. At least the good ones are.

Noticeably F.A.T.: frepnog: i just don't think this crap is necessary. neat, perhaps.

That can be said for the entire entertainment industry. People watch movies because they are neat, not because they are necessary.

PsyLord: Can the human ear even discern 128 different sounds that are being played simultaneously?

Unlikely, but the human eye not being able to discern images moving really fast doesn't seem to keep people from going to the movies. It's kinda the entire point, really.


Um, the human eye CAN discern images moving very fast. Much faster than what they use for most movies and TV shows. Movies typically use 24FPS and TV shows typically use 30FPS. The human eye can on average tell a difference up to 72FPS.

You ears most certainly can hear all that sound at once but of course individual results will vary as to how well you can focus on and pick out individual sounds. Think about how some people can pick out different voices and conversations in a crowd while others can end up having trouble understanding the person right next to them.
 
2012-06-19 09:11:07 PM
Meh.

Let me know when Sensurround comes back.
 
2012-06-19 09:13:57 PM

SpectroBoy: fluffy2097: They can't even get a stereo mix right, and they want to add an 8th speaker?

I just wish sound engineers would stop putting the "loud stuff" a trillion decibels above the dialog. Movies are STORIES about PEOPLE, not about explosions.


The worst example of this is the movie "Dead Man". Really shiatty electric guitar played too damn loud over extremely boring and whispered dialog.

/yes, I know who played the guitar for the movie. He sucks.
 
2012-06-19 10:37:11 PM

HailRobonia: Thats_Not_My_Baby: bazzanoid: [cdn.9laughs.com image 624x558]

I've always wanted to know- what kind of bird is that?!

Her name is Sarah and I believe she is an Australian zookeeper.


She may or may not be Austrian, but even a brief glance at that image will tell you that she works for the Scottish SPCA.
 
2012-06-19 11:13:52 PM

Surool: Jackpot777: gingerjet: /you all know this is a Doctor Who reference right?

I hope to meet those not getting the reference on the field of battle, where I will crush the worthless life from their puny human forms. Try and get some rest.

You mean just like the last Atmos story that had a Doctor Who joke in the headline?


You think Fark greenlights follow a line like a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... timey wimey... stuff.
 
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