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(ABC)   The NFL assures everyone that its bounty evidence is huge and all you're seeing is the tip   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 88
    More: Unlikely, Roger Goodell, NFL, Jonathan Vilma, bone fracture, Joe Vitt, Scott Fujita, Anthony Hargrove, Jeff Pash  
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682 clicks; posted to Sports » on 19 Jun 2012 at 9:19 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-19 09:23:06 AM
Just the tip?
 
2012-06-19 09:30:24 AM

basemetal: Just the tip?


Just for a minute. Just to see how it feels.
 
2012-06-19 09:43:21 AM
The NFL is a grower, not a shower.
 
2012-06-19 09:44:19 AM
The NFLPA released the "evidence" the NFL gave out a few days ago, if anyone's not lazy enough to go look it up.
 
2012-06-19 09:48:39 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/06/18/new.orl eans.saints.bounties/index.html

Let me pick out some of my favorites;

1. (easily my favorite) The PowerPoint slide collected from a sweep of the Saints' computer system, from the night before the Saints' playoff loss at Seattle in January 2011, complete with a picture of TV bounty hunter Duane "Dog'' Chapman, that said, "Now is the time to do our job ... collect bounty $$$! No apologies! Let's go hunting!''

2. The NFL Films-recorded quote from defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove, as first reported by SI in March, with Hargrove saying to defensive teammate Bobby McCray, "Give me my money,'' after Vitt told the team that Favre was out of the game with a leg injury. (Favre did return to the game without missing a play, but that wasn't apparent when Hargrove made his declaration to McCray.) - Gotta love video!

3. The three sources the NFL claims to have who told league investigators linebacker Jonathan Vilma spurred the bounty on Favre by offering $10,000 himself during a night-before-the-game motivational speech by, as one of the sources said, "raising his hands, each of which held stacks of bills, that he had two 'five-stacks,''' to give to the player who knocked Favre from the game. - A hood rat acting hood ratish? No way.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/06/18/new.or l eans.saints.bounties/index.html

There's tons more too. Lets hear those goalposts move!
 
2012-06-19 09:50:51 AM
Oh yeah this is relevant too, because I know some noob is gonna come here in trying to frame the arguement towards the injuries.

"However, the NFL has maintained all along that all it needs is evidence that a bounty program was in place and that money was offered to try to take opponents out of the game -- not that players were actually taken out of the game."

As always, running a bounty program violated the CBA and cap and alone is enough to punish the players.
 
2012-06-19 10:04:41 AM
Right. We should always trust secretive organizations.
 
2012-06-19 10:05:47 AM

justtray: Oh yeah this is relevant too, because I know some noob is gonna come here in trying to frame the arguement towards the injuries.

"However, the NFL has maintained all along that all it needs is evidence that a bounty program was in place and that money was offered to try to take opponents out of the game -- not that players were actually taken out of the game."

As always, running a bounty program violated the CBA and cap and alone is enough to punish the players.


Punish them to the extent they've been? I dont think there's any doubt that rules were broken and some punishment is necessary, but it seems what has been handed down is harsh and arbitrary.
 
2012-06-19 10:13:31 AM

justtray: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/06/18/new.or l eans.saints.bounties/index.html

Let me pick out some of my favorites;

1. (easily my favorite) The PowerPoint slide collected from a sweep of the Saints' computer system, from the night before the Saints' playoff loss at Seattle in January 2011, complete with a picture of TV bounty hunter Duane "Dog'' Chapman, that said, "Now is the time to do our job ... collect bounty $$$! No apologies! Let's go hunting!''

2. The NFL Films-recorded quote from defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove, as first reported by SI in March, with Hargrove saying to defensive teammate Bobby McCray, "Give me my money,'' after Vitt told the team that Favre was out of the game with a leg injury. (Favre did return to the game without missing a play, but that wasn't apparent when Hargrove made his declaration to McCray.) - Gotta love video!

3. The three sources the NFL claims to have who told league investigators linebacker Jonathan Vilma spurred the bounty on Favre by offering $10,000 himself during a night-before-the-game motivational speech by, as one of the sources said, "raising his hands, each of which held stacks of bills, that he had two 'five-stacks,''' to give to the player who knocked Favre from the game. - A hood rat acting hood ratish? No way.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/06/18/new.or l eans.saints.bounties/index.html

There's tons more too. Lets hear those goalposts move!


Psh, you call that evidence? This is all semantics. Everyone was doing it why were the Saints punished just because they were warned to stop and refused? Let's see all the evidence, why is the NFL withholding information they don't have to release? It's a travashamockery of justice!

/There I saved the biggest fairweather Saint fan the trouble of posting here, but I doubt it will stop him
//He knows who he is
///Bobby, give me my money.
 
2012-06-19 10:16:34 AM

justtray: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/06/18/new.or l eans.saints.bounties/index.html

Let me pick out some of my favorites;

1. (easily my favorite) The PowerPoint slide collected from a sweep of the Saints' computer system, from the night before the Saints' playoff loss at Seattle in January 2011, complete with a picture of TV bounty hunter Duane "Dog'' Chapman, that said, "Now is the time to do our job ... collect bounty $$$! No apologies! Let's go hunting!''


Problem #1. Does not name any player that was suspended as part of the bounty program. Could be taken as evidence such a program existed with the Saints but will not help the Commish with the pending lawsuits from Vilma, Fujita, et al.

2. The NFL Films-recorded quote from defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove, as first reported by SI in March, with Hargrove saying to defensive teammate Bobby McCray, "Give me my money,'' after Vitt told the team that Favre was out of the game with a leg injury. (Favre did return to the game without missing a play, but that wasn't apparent when Hargrove made his declaration to McCray.) - Gotta love video!

Problem #2. See #1 above. Neither Hargrove nor McCray have filed against the Commish.

3. The three sources the NFL claims to have who told league investigators linebacker Jonathan Vilma spurred the bounty on Favre by offering $10,000 himself during a night-before-the-game motivational speech by, as one of the sources said, "raising his hands, each of which held stacks of bills, that he had two 'five-stacks,''' to give to the player who knocked Favre from the game. - A hood rat acting hood ratish? No way.

Problem #3. If you think "well we have a guy who said he saw/heard it" is going to hold up in court go check out how that Roger Clemens thing went.

There's tons more too. Lets hear those goalposts move!

If you are referring to the case against the Saints organization for having such a program then there is sufficient evidence to support the point. But as far as what Goodell is facing in court from the players he chose to single out, there is nothing there that will help the case. Unless they are witholding the more damming evidence until the various cases hit the discovery phase of trial.

Regardless, you sure sound like a Falcons fan right about now.

/maybe Panthers
//no one cares about the Bucs
 
2012-06-19 10:19:32 AM
They found the ledger that they used to pay out people. I repeat, THEY FOUND THE LEDGER. This is retarded to be debating. If this was criminal and not not under Goodell, these guys could be facing jail time. Shut the Fark up about this not being fair.

/Falcons fan and loving this.
 
2012-06-19 10:21:05 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: justtray: Oh yeah this is relevant too, because I know some noob is gonna come here in trying to frame the arguement towards the injuries.

"However, the NFL has maintained all along that all it needs is evidence that a bounty program was in place and that money was offered to try to take opponents out of the game -- not that players were actually taken out of the game."

As always, running a bounty program violated the CBA and cap and alone is enough to punish the players.

Punish them to the extent they've been? I dont think there's any doubt that rules were broken and some punishment is necessary, but it seems what has been handed down is harsh and arbitrary.


Hahahah yes!

This is exactly were I expected the goalposts to move! "Well ok, they are guilty, but should they really have been banned x games?"

The counter to this is, "Should any player who Goodell ever suspended been suspended x games?" Like Vick - 2 years? Etc, etc... That's his job an determination, as supported by 2 independent arbitrators hired by the NFLPA, so unfortunately the answer is an undeniable "yes."
 
2012-06-19 10:23:08 AM

the1hatman: justtray: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/peter_king/06/18/new.or l eans.saints.bounties/index.html

Let me pick out some of my favorites;

1. (easily my favorite) The PowerPoint slide collected from a sweep of the Saints' computer system, from the night before the Saints' playoff loss at Seattle in January 2011, complete with a picture of TV bounty hunter Duane "Dog'' Chapman, that said, "Now is the time to do our job ... collect bounty $$$! No apologies! Let's go hunting!''

Problem #1. Does not name any player that was suspended as part of the bounty program. Could be taken as evidence such a program existed with the Saints but will not help the Commish with the pending lawsuits from Vilma, Fujita, et al.

2. The NFL Films-recorded quote from defensive lineman Anthony Hargrove, as first reported by SI in March, with Hargrove saying to defensive teammate Bobby McCray, "Give me my money,'' after Vitt told the team that Favre was out of the game with a leg injury. (Favre did return to the game without missing a play, but that wasn't apparent when Hargrove made his declaration to McCray.) - Gotta love video!

Problem #2. See #1 above. Neither Hargrove nor McCray have filed against the Commish.

3. The three sources the NFL claims to have who told league investigators linebacker Jonathan Vilma spurred the bounty on Favre by offering $10,000 himself during a night-before-the-game motivational speech by, as one of the sources said, "raising his hands, each of which held stacks of bills, that he had two 'five-stacks,''' to give to the player who knocked Favre from the game. - A hood rat acting hood ratish? No way.

Problem #3. If you think "well we have a guy who said he saw/heard it" is going to hold up in court go check out how that Roger Clemens thing went.

There's tons more too. Lets hear those goalposts move!

If you are referring to the case against the Saints organization for having such a program then there is sufficient evidence to support the poi ...


Yes I MUST be a fan of a rival of the Saints. Who else would care about fairness, amirite? You realize that case will never go to court right? Two independent arbitrators already ruled in favor of Goodell having that power. Ones hired by the NFLPA. Two of them. The legal case was dead before it started.
 
2012-06-19 10:30:02 AM

justtray: Yes I MUST be a fan of a rival of the Saints. Who else would care about fairness, amirite? You realize that case will never go to court right? Two independent arbitrators already ruled in favor of Goodell having that power. Ones hired by the NFLPA. Two of them. The legal case was dead before it started.


haahaha

doing a little bit (huge bit) of goalpost moving yourself there, eh?

Homeboy just destroyed your post LOL.
 
2012-06-19 10:32:35 AM
Even better, if they verify the ledger and catch all of these dirtbags lying, that will open up the door for a whole new level of potentially felony charges.

I love the City of New Orleans, but I think that the Saints Organization and fans are the worst caliber of human being in the world. While us Falcon fans have been saying this for a while, the Saints got slurped like Duke on ESPN after they won their Super Bowl. Meanwhile effectively ending the career of Warner, and robbing the Vikings of a super bowl opportunity they deserved. If they acted like real men, accepted the mountain of evidence in front of them, they may get redemption points. Otherwise this will be long, drawn out, and hopefully will lead to criminal charges.

Sewage does flow downstream on the Mighty Mississippi, and gets retained in the "Super" Dome.

/not trolling, just really hate the Saints.
//I'd be worried if I was Breesus, he is going to take some serious punishment for his teams dirty acts.
 
2012-06-19 10:33:11 AM

justtray: Debeo Summa Credo: justtray: Oh yeah this is relevant too, because I know some noob is gonna come here in trying to frame the arguement towards the injuries.

"However, the NFL has maintained all along that all it needs is evidence that a bounty program was in place and that money was offered to try to take opponents out of the game -- not that players were actually taken out of the game."

As always, running a bounty program violated the CBA and cap and alone is enough to punish the players.

Punish them to the extent they've been? I dont think there's any doubt that rules were broken and some punishment is necessary, but it seems what has been handed down is harsh and arbitrary.

Hahahah yes!

This is exactly were I expected the goalposts to move! "Well ok, they are guilty, but should they really have been banned x games?"

The counter to this is, "Should any player who Goodell ever suspended been suspended x games?" Like Vick - 2 years? Etc, etc... That's his job an determination, as supported by 2 independent arbitrators hired by the NFLPA, so unfortunately the answer is an undeniable "yes."


So Vick could have been suspended for 20 years, and belicheck banned or life, and Suh kicked out of the league for their violations and it wouldn't be worth discussing whether the penalties were appropriate?
 
2012-06-19 10:33:57 AM

h0lmesdaddy: They found the ledger that they used to pay out people. I repeat, THEY FOUND THE LEDGER. This is retarded to be debating. If this was criminal and not not under Goodell, these guys could be facing jail time. Shut the Fark up about this not being fair.

/Falcons fan and loving this.


You obviously haven't read any of the FOLLOW-UP ON THE LEDGER THING, have you?
 
2012-06-19 10:37:09 AM
Problem #1: Actually it will help with Vilma's defamation suit against Goodell. Kinda hard to say the commish defamed you by saying you participated in a bounty program when you partipated in a bounty program. Yeah it doesn't name anyone individually...so what? It's evidence the program existed and I'd hypothesize the NFL probably has more evidence specifically linking certain players to the program that they don't have to release. But nice try going from "there was no bounty program" to "this won't help Goodell in the pending civil litigation".

Problem #2: Again, what does pending civil litigation have to do with this bounty program? Are those goalposts heavy when you move them? Must not be since you keep doing it.

Problem #3: Yeah how about three guys who said they saw it instead of just one? Still not good enough for you huh? And I'm sure you're not dumb enough to try to falsely equate Clemens criminal trial to this appeal hearing or some future civil litigation that may or may not happen in the future.

Finally, I'm glad you're at least willing to admit there's evidence of the bounty program which is all the NFL had to or even tried to provide for this appeal. Obviously the NFL isn't going to release anymore then they have to (which by the way is very little according to the CBA).

I guess what I'm saying is your whole post indicating none of this evidence will help Goodell in civil litigation against these players is pretty much irrelevant (since this wasn't supposed to be revelation of evidence supporting Goodell I'm a civil case). But you got a shot in at your divisional rivals do nice job.

/you sound like an angry Saints fan
//don't worry they'll be irrelevant again soon enough and you can put your paper bags back in Saints fans
 
2012-06-19 10:37:33 AM

h0lmesdaddy: //I'd be worried if I was Breesus, he is going to take some serious punishment for his teams dirty acts.


So, you think Saints' opponents weren't already trying to knock Brees out of games prior to now?

Like, when the 49ers ***admitted*** they were trying to knock Eli Manning out of the 2012 NFC Championship Game? One week after they'd played the Saints?
 
2012-06-19 10:39:29 AM

h0lmesdaddy: They found the ledger that they used to pay out people. I repeat, THEY FOUND THE LEDGER. This is retarded to be debating. If this was criminal and not not under Goodell, these guys could be facing jail time. Shut the Fark up about this not being fair.

/Falcons fan and loving this.


You really aren't paying attention, are you?

I'm pretty we settled this ledger business days ago, with link's and sources even.

/Not reposting them all here.
//But there's the thread.
 
2012-06-19 10:40:20 AM

h0lmesdaddy: They found the ledger that they used to pay out people. I repeat, THEY FOUND THE LEDGER. This is retarded to be debating. If this was criminal and not not under Goodell, these guys could be facing jail time. Shut the Fark up about this not being fair.

/Falcons fan and loving this.


They SAY they have the ledger. They have not SHOWN ANYONE the ledger, that I am aware of. THAT is the piece of evidence that I'm waiting for.

God, I miss the old days.

/go iggles
 
2012-06-19 10:40:31 AM
Damnit. *links

I need coffee.
 
2012-06-19 10:41:11 AM

Slow To Return: justtray: Yes I MUST be a fan of a rival of the Saints. Who else would care about fairness, amirite? You realize that case will never go to court right? Two independent arbitrators already ruled in favor of Goodell having that power. Ones hired by the NFLPA. Two of them. The legal case was dead before it started.

haahaha

doing a little bit (huge bit) of goalpost moving yourself there, eh?

Homeboy just destroyed your post LOL.


Wait what? How does countering my posts with a court based opinion (which will never go to court) have any bearing on this? Everything he said was 100% irrelevant. Those court cases are going to be thrown out, 100%. Two arbitrators already ruled in favor of Goodell. It's over. You Saints fans really will just keep repeating any lie and ignoring all facts, huh?
 
2012-06-19 10:41:53 AM

Slow To Return: So, you think Saints' opponents weren't already trying to knock Brees out of games prior to now?


Probably

Slow To Return: Like, when the 49ers ***admitted*** they were trying to knock Eli Manning out of the 2012 NFC Championship Game? One week after they'd played the Saints?


Definitely.

However, there's a difference in doing that and offering bounties. The issue isn't even that, though, so much as offering the bounties, hiding it, lying to the NFL and the press, and denying it when caught.

But I'm guessing those finer details mean nothing to you?
 
2012-06-19 10:42:56 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: justtray: Debeo Summa Credo: justtray: Oh yeah this is relevant too, because I know some noob is gonna come here in trying to frame the arguement towards the injuries.

"However, the NFL has maintained all along that all it needs is evidence that a bounty program was in place and that money was offered to try to take opponents out of the game -- not that players were actually taken out of the game."

As always, running a bounty program violated the CBA and cap and alone is enough to punish the players.

Punish them to the extent they've been? I dont think there's any doubt that rules were broken and some punishment is necessary, but it seems what has been handed down is harsh and arbitrary.

Hahahah yes!

This is exactly were I expected the goalposts to move! "Well ok, they are guilty, but should they really have been banned x games?"

The counter to this is, "Should any player who Goodell ever suspended been suspended x games?" Like Vick - 2 years? Etc, etc... That's his job an determination, as supported by 2 independent arbitrators hired by the NFLPA, so unfortunately the answer is an undeniable "yes."

So Vick could have been suspended for 20 years, and belicheck banned or life, and Suh kicked out of the league for their violations and it wouldn't be worth discussing whether the penalties were appropriate?


Since none of those happened, no, it wouldn't. I don't see you arguing whether any of the REAL penatlies were appropriate, so again, you're just being a bias homer because you don't like the outcome of this one case. Feel free to prove me wrong.
 
2012-06-19 10:43:55 AM

justtray: Wait what? How does countering my posts with a court based opinion (which will never go to court) have any bearing on this? Everything he said was 100% irrelevant. Those court cases are going to be thrown out, 100%. Two arbitrators already ruled in favor of Goodell. It's over. You Saints fans really will just keep repeating any lie and ignoring all facts, huh?


I'm not a Saints fan, but feel free to ignore that fact.

So you're saying Vilma's lawsuit has already been settled in favor of Goodell. Sorry, I guess I missed that. Carry on, then.
 
2012-06-19 10:44:56 AM

h0lmesdaddy: They found the ledger that they used to pay out people. I repeat, THEY FOUND THE LEDGER. This is retarded to be debating. If this was criminal and not not under Goodell, these guys could be facing jail time. Shut the Fark up about this not being fair.

/Falcons fan and loving this.


And the ledger is where? Show it. If it's so damning, it should be exhibit #1. If you got it, show it. So, where is it, Senator McCarthy?

I hope Vilma ends up owning Goodell's ass.
 
2012-06-19 10:46:07 AM

Slow To Return: justtray: Wait what? How does countering my posts with a court based opinion (which will never go to court) have any bearing on this? Everything he said was 100% irrelevant. Those court cases are going to be thrown out, 100%. Two arbitrators already ruled in favor of Goodell. It's over. You Saints fans really will just keep repeating any lie and ignoring all facts, huh?

I'm not a Saints fan, but feel free to ignore that fact.

So you're saying Vilma's lawsuit has already been settled in favor of Goodell. Sorry, I guess I missed that. Carry on, then.


Pretty much, yes. Just a formality before it gets thrown out now. Yes, that's what I'm saying.
 
2012-06-19 10:46:59 AM

Galloping Galoshes: h0lmesdaddy: They found the ledger that they used to pay out people. I repeat, THEY FOUND THE LEDGER. This is retarded to be debating. If this was criminal and not not under Goodell, these guys could be facing jail time. Shut the Fark up about this not being fair.

/Falcons fan and loving this.

And the ledger is where? Show it. If it's so damning, it should be exhibit #1. If you got it, show it. So, where is it, Senator McCarthy?

I hope Vilma ends up owning Goodell's ass.


If you see the ledger, will you admit you were wrong and stop supporting this insane argument? Because I don't think so. I think you'll just nitpick some other small piece of evidence while ignoring the mountain.
 
2012-06-19 10:49:57 AM

kwame: However, there's a difference in doing that and offering bounties. The issue isn't even that, though, so much as offering the bounties, hiding it, lying to the NFL and the press, and denying it when caught.

But I'm guessing those finer details mean nothing to you?


Actually, they DO mean nothing to me.

And I'm not here because I'm a Saints fan. I don't care for them either way except I was rooting for Indy in the Superbowl because I was sick of the Katrina angle.

I'm here because (A) I'm so farking sick of the "player safety" angle. BULLshiat. If you cared about player safety, the finer details WOULD mean nothing. You're either intentionally trying to hurt the other player or you're not. Enough money to buy one dinner out at an expensive restaurant doesn't change that. And (B) with every day that goes by and with each new story that comes out, the Saints are starting to look more and more like Goodell's scapegoats, a sideshow to distract everyone from the MUCH larger issues going on right now. Wag the Dog kinda thing. And (C) the punishment to Vilma is exceedingly harsh, when compared to the punishment the actual coaches got. You'd have to be blinded by Saints hatred to not see that.
 
2012-06-19 10:50:58 AM
Because HERE YOU GO. - Screenshot copies of the ledger with annotations. I believe you can find more at the NFLPA website, like where I found this.
 
2012-06-19 10:51:35 AM
https://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/NFLPA_Annotated_Exh ibits.PDF

- can't figure out hyperlinking........dur
 
2012-06-19 10:52:59 AM
I was getting drunk at a concert Saturday, thanks for the update. I am newb in light of people with way more free time than I. I should have realized, nobody from the saints would be literate enough to keepba real ledger.That said, I think this investigation will prove John Vilma's connection to Iran-Contra as a toddler, Scott Fujita framed Roger Rabbit, and Sean Payton is actually a gay brothel owner. I hope they all get farked without lube.
 
2012-06-19 10:53:39 AM

Slow To Return: kwame: However, there's a difference in doing that and offering bounties. The issue isn't even that, though, so much as offering the bounties, hiding it, lying to the NFL and the press, and denying it when caught.

But I'm guessing those finer details mean nothing to you?

Actually, they DO mean nothing to me.

And I'm not here because I'm a Saints fan. I don't care for them either way except I was rooting for Indy in the Superbowl because I was sick of the Katrina angle.

I'm here because (A) I'm so farking sick of the "player safety" angle. BULLshiat. If you cared about player safety, the finer details WOULD mean nothing. You're either intentionally trying to hurt the other player or you're not. Enough money to buy one dinner out at an expensive restaurant doesn't change that. And (B) with every day that goes by and with each new story that comes out, the Saints are starting to look more and more like Goodell's scapegoats, a sideshow to distract everyone from the MUCH larger issues going on right now. Wag the Dog kinda thing. And (C) the punishment to Vilma is exceedingly harsh, when compared to the punishment the actual coaches got. You'd have to be blinded by Saints hatred to not see that.


Those are all opinions. We get it, the game was "hardcore" in your day, you hate the commish (we all do), and you've ignored all facts in this case to make an uninformed, blanket opinion. Glad you have your opinions, but no one cares. Stick to the facts.
 
2012-06-19 10:54:25 AM

justtray: How does countering my posts with a court based opinion (which will never go to court) have any bearing on this? Everything he said was 100% irrelevant. Those court cases are going to be thrown out, 100%. Two arbitrators already ruled in favor of Goodell. It's over. You Saints fans really will just keep repeating any lie and ignoring all facts, huh?


You are not a lawyer. The cases heard by arbitrators were heard as part of the appeal process under the CBA. Vilma's case is a defamation case, and is completely separate. The case will be decided upon a preponderance of the evidence (not reasonable doubt), and so far the league has shown nothing that directly ties Vilma to anything. Goodell made specific public statements about Vilma, after the League accumulated all this evidence. If the evidence does not back up Goodell's statements, Vilma may have a case.

And nothing is ever over.
 
2012-06-19 10:54:37 AM

Galloping Galoshes: h0lmesdaddy: They found the ledger that they used to pay out people. I repeat, THEY FOUND THE LEDGER. This is retarded to be debating. If this was criminal and not not under Goodell, these guys could be facing jail time. Shut the Fark up about this not being fair.

/Falcons fan and loving this.

And the ledger is where? Show it. If it's so damning, it should be exhibit #1. If you got it, show it. So, where is it, Senator McCarthy?

I hope Vilma ends up owning Goodell's ass.


I saw it on Mike&Mike this morning. How damning it is individually is irrelevant. It is one piece of evidence, that when taken just with what else the NFL agreed to release despite being under no obligation to do so, that starts to prove the existence of this bounty program.

Vilma's defamation suit is completely irrelevant to this appeals hearing the Commish held yesterday. There was no attempt to prove or disprove defamation. The NFL released the bare minimum because that's all they had to do. And while I would never say a case is over before motions are even heard, I think it's hard to prove you were defamed by being associated with a bounty program when you were in fact apparently intimately involved with a bounty program.
 
2012-06-19 10:56:57 AM

Galloping Galoshes: justtray: How does countering my posts with a court based opinion (which will never go to court) have any bearing on this? Everything he said was 100% irrelevant. Those court cases are going to be thrown out, 100%. Two arbitrators already ruled in favor of Goodell. It's over. You Saints fans really will just keep repeating any lie and ignoring all facts, huh?

You are not a lawyer. The cases heard by arbitrators were heard as part of the appeal process under the CBA. Vilma's case is a defamation case, and is completely separate. The case will be decided upon a preponderance of the evidence (not reasonable doubt), and so far the league has shown nothing that directly ties Vilma to anything. Goodell made specific public statements about Vilma, after the League accumulated all this evidence. If the evidence does not back up Goodell's statements, Vilma may have a case.

And nothing is ever over.


Gonna be pretty hard to justify it being a court case when the CBA and 2 independent arbitrators hired by the NFLPA have ruled Goodell has that power. Good luck. 100% it will be thrown out.
 
2012-06-19 10:58:55 AM

justtray: If you see the ledger, will you admit you were wrong and stop supporting this insane argument? Because I don't think so. I think you'll just nitpick some other small piece of evidence while ignoring the mountain.


Do you think there's enough evidence in there to support what amounts to a potentially career-ending, four-million dollar fine to Vilma? Where's the precedent for that? The fine that D'Angelo Hall receieved for saying he was going to take Tony Romo's ribs out? The fine that Jacquian Williams and Devin Thomas received for saying there were trying further concuss Kyle Williams? The fine that Carlos Rodgers received for trying to knock Eli Manning out of the game? The fines that former Redskins players received while playing under Gregg Williams?
 
2012-06-19 11:00:06 AM

Slow To Return: justtray: If you see the ledger, will you admit you were wrong and stop supporting this insane argument? Because I don't think so. I think you'll just nitpick some other small piece of evidence while ignoring the mountain.

Do you think there's enough evidence in there to support what amounts to a potentially career-ending, four-million dollar fine to Vilma? Where's the precedent for that? The fine that D'Angelo Hall receieved for saying he was going to take Tony Romo's ribs out? The fine that Jacquian Williams and Devin Thomas received for saying there were trying further concuss Kyle Williams? The fine that Carlos Rodgers received for trying to knock Eli Manning out of the game? The fines that former Redskins players received while playing under Gregg Williams?


All of this is irrelevant, due to the langauge of the CBA. Goodell makes that determination. I don't like it, but I think the players should have probably tried to change that in the CBA if they cared. I have only the smallest violin for them at this point.
 
2012-06-19 11:00:16 AM

justtray: Those are all opinions. We get it, the game was "hardcore" in your day, you hate the commish (we all do), and you've ignored all facts in this case to make an uninformed, blanket opinion. Glad you have your opinions, but no one cares. Stick to the facts.


What the fark post did you just read?
 
2012-06-19 11:02:11 AM
As a Patriots fan, I'm looking forward to this replacing "Spygate" as the go to NFL controversy.

Thanks Saints!
 
2012-06-19 11:02:17 AM

justtray: Debeo Summa Credo: justtray: Debeo Summa Credo: justtray: Oh yeah this is relevant too, because I know some noob is gonna come here in trying to frame the arguement towards the injuries.

"However, the NFL has maintained all along that all it needs is evidence that a bounty program was in place and that money was offered to try to take opponents out of the game -- not that players were actually taken out of the game."

As always, running a bounty program violated the CBA and cap and alone is enough to punish the players.

Punish them to the extent they've been? I dont think there's any doubt that rules were broken and some punishment is necessary, but it seems what has been handed down is harsh and arbitrary.

Hahahah yes!

This is exactly were I expected the goalposts to move! "Well ok, they are guilty, but should they really have been banned x games?"

The counter to this is, "Should any player who Goodell ever suspended been suspended x games?" Like Vick - 2 years? Etc, etc... That's his job an determination, as supported by 2 independent arbitrators hired by the NFLPA, so unfortunately the answer is an undeniable "yes."

So Vick could have been suspended for 20 years, and belicheck banned or life, and Suh kicked out of the league for their violations and it wouldn't be worth discussing whether the penalties were appropriate?

Since none of those happened, no, it wouldn't. I don't see you arguing whether any of the REAL penatlies were appropriate, so again, you're just being a bias homer because you don't like the outcome of this one case. Feel free to prove me wrong.


I'm a patriots fan who felt the punishment for "spygate" was appropriate, FWIW.

I don't like the falcons but felt Vicks overall punishment was harsh, but that's partially because I dont like dogs.

I do like the saints, relative to other teams in the NFC. So admittedly if this were happening to the Jets or Colts I might have your viewpoint.
 
2012-06-19 11:05:17 AM

h0lmesdaddy: I was getting drunk at a concert Saturday, thanks for the update. I am newb in light of people with way more free time than I. I should have realized, nobody from the saints would be literate enough to keepba real ledger.That said, I think this investigation will prove John Vilma's connection to Iran-Contra as a toddler, Scott Fujita framed Roger Rabbit, and Sean Payton is actually a gay brothel owner. I hope they all get farked without lube.


Don't you need to be at the gym in 26 minutes?
 
2012-06-19 11:05:59 AM
My favorite part of this story is that Marshawn Lynch was a bounty target.
 
2012-06-19 11:10:13 AM
Vilma has been pretty impressive in his defense of his honor. So defensive, and with such balls, that I am starting to wonder if Goodell did indeed reach too far in his suspensions. Vilma is sure going "all in" with his denials!
 
2012-06-19 11:10:52 AM
Everyone is taking this way too seriously. Doesn't anyone remember the Bounty Bowl?
 
2012-06-19 11:13:41 AM
Sounds like some farkers are out-kicking their coverage in here today.
 
2012-06-19 11:17:24 AM

AnotherBluesStringer: h0lmesdaddy: I was getting drunk at a concert Saturday, thanks for the update. I am newb in light of people with way more free time than I. I should have realized, nobody from the saints would be literate enough to keepba real ledger.That said, I think this investigation will prove John Vilma's connection to Iran-Contra as a toddler, Scott Fujita framed Roger Rabbit, and Sean Payton is actually a gay brothel owner. I hope they all get farked without lube.

Don't you need to be at the gym in 26 minutes?


Touche, I'm actually on my way to Payton's endzone penetration club. Sean's running a special on his Zoolander character with all his free time.
 
2012-06-19 11:17:38 AM

Slow To Return: justtray: If you see the ledger, will you admit you were wrong and stop supporting this insane argument? Because I don't think so. I think you'll just nitpick some other small piece of evidence while ignoring the mountain.

Do you think there's enough evidence in there to support what amounts to a potentially career-ending, four-million dollar fine to Vilma? Where's the precedent for that? The fine that D'Angelo Hall receieved for saying he was going to take Tony Romo's ribs out? The fine that Jacquian Williams and Devin Thomas received for saying there were trying further concuss Kyle Williams? The fine that Carlos Rodgers received for trying to knock Eli Manning out of the game? The fines that former Redskins players received while playing under Gregg Williams?


Hey if we all want to start arguing about whether these punishments are fair and whether the commish should have so much power, great, sounds like we're all on the same side of that one, but:

1. Whether he should have that much power or not, he does by the terms of the CBA the players agreed to

2. Let's stop arguing about the evidence that hasn't been released as if it shows the NFL has a weak case and little evidence...they released only what they had to based on the CBA. It is just stupid to think this is all they have. The program existed, a pay for play plan, blatantly against the rules...doesn't matter who else was doing it or that they didn't actually break Farve's leg when they tried to collect. It was against the rules and after the Saints ignored their warning, they are being punished.

3. The defamation suit has no bearing on this appeal. This appeal may have some impact on that suit, but the converse is not true. The NFL wasn't trying to defend Goodell from defamation...they were hearing an appeal of commissioner discipline in accordance with the CBA. Any case against Goodell for defamation will be heard on its own merits and at that time any additional info or evidence the NFL has specifically linking Vilma to this crap would be presented then. The fact that such evidence wasn't presented at this time means absolutely nothing about the existence of such evidence.
 
2012-06-19 11:22:39 AM

justtray:
Wait what? How does countering my posts with a court based opinion (which will never go to court) have any bearing on this? Everything he said was 100% irrelevant.


Clam down friend. I have no doubt that the Saints were involved with some sort of bounty program and I think Goddell hit the organization appropriately. Singling out players for large suspensions however is where he overstepped his bounds unless he has **read this part carefully now** any direct evidence against these players. Nothing you posted above points to any specific player nor does any of it justify the player's suspensions. This is where the court cases have direct bearing.

Those court cases are going to be thrown out, 100%. Two arbitrators already ruled in favor of Goodell.

The only way these cases do not go to trial is if they are dropped or settled out of court by Goddell and the players involved. The arbitrator rulings you referred to were not court rulings. They were to determine if the Commish had the authority to make initial rulings over the players under the collective bargaining agreement since some of the alleged infractions occurred before the current CBA was in place. In no way do those rulings affect the player's legal standing in open court nor do they protect Goddell from action should he be shown to have acted without sufficient evidence.

Keep in mind I am NOT saying no such evidence exists, just that none of what you posted above would be considered damming evidence towards any of the players suspended.

It's over. You Saints fans really will just keep repeating any lie and ignoring all facts, huh?

I have repeated nothing and I am not Saints fan. I offered a quick analysis of the "evidence" you posted above. The players may very well be lying through their teeth but none of that can be discerned from what the league has made public to this point. My guess is that should the cases make it to court Goddell has more damming evidence than what has been provided so far or he would have settled or reduced the suspensions by now.
 
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