Why is this sad? We don't have the money... Let some other country be a trailblazer for once, and they can incur the costs that go along with it...

Nabb1: logistic: WTF Indeed: Oh, you mean like we did in the early 60's with the Gemini missions? Call me back when China has been to the moon and has had rovers on Mars for over 8 years.

This is exactly the type of "logic" that is allowing them to rapidly blow past us.

"Hurr durr we did something 60 years ago that was cool so we will rule for eternity! AMURRICA!!!!"

Guess what? America never had their own Spacspace station. Mir and ISS were collaborative. China is going at it alone.

Skylab? In any event, our willingness to fall behind in space exploration is appalling, but that has more to do with apathy than anything else. We are no longer a society that aspires to greatness.

What space are we exploring? Unless NASA has a hyperdrive I'm unaware of, we aren't exploring anything. It's a lot cheaper to send a robot to run an experiment in zero-G, than some phd.

A successful docking, eh? Well, I guess we know the woman wasn't driving.

/duck & cover!

stuhayes2010: Nabb1: logistic: WTF Indeed: Oh, you mean like we did in the early 60's with the Gemini missions? Call me back when China has been to the moon and has had rovers on Mars for over 8 years.

This is exactly the type of "logic" that is allowing them to rapidly blow past us.

"Hurr durr we did something 60 years ago that was cool so we will rule for eternity! AMURRICA!!!!"

Guess what? America never had their own Spacspace station. Mir and ISS were collaborative. China is going at it alone.

Skylab? In any event, our willingness to fall behind in space exploration is appalling, but that has more to do with apathy than anything else. We are no longer a society that aspires to greatness.

What space are we exploring? Unless NASA has a hyperdrive I'm unaware of, we aren't exploring anything. It's a lot cheaper to send a robot to run an experiment in zero-G, than some phd.

I guess if you frame it in that exploration requires manned missions, we aren't exploring much. NASA realized that manned missions are mostly a waste of money for actual science. They are really just big PR moves. Now, does science in America need some PR right about now? Probably, but NASA is still going to concentrate on actual science without a specific mandate and funding for manned missions. Id rather get the James Webb up than go to Mars at this point personally. We have a pretty good idea of whats on Mars even if we haven't been there in person. The one compelling reason I can see to send manned missions to Mars is for a more in depth search for proof of life. That would obviously be a MASSIVE discovery.

Guidette Frankentits: +1 for the jab

Yeah, ya know. China's WAY ahead of us in the forced abortions.

gilgigamesh: WTF Indeed: Oh, you mean like we did in the early 60's with the Gemini missions? Call me back when China has been to the moon and has had rovers on Mars for over 8 years.

The people who were behind those missions are all dead or retired.

Nowadays, sadly, the United States lacks the knowhow to accomplish anything approaching those feats without going all the way back to the drawing board.

Don't worry, NASA's hard at work on the Muslim outreach.

fonebone77: The one compelling reason I can see to send manned missions to Mars is for a more in depth search for proof of life. That would obviously be a MASSIVE discovery.

We could send 100 or maybe even a thousand small life-seeking rovers to Mars for the price of a single flag-planting manned mission.

SaltyDonnie: Guidette Frankentits: +1 for the jab

Yeah, ya know. China's WAY ahead of us in the forced abortions.

If you can't pay the fine, don't do the crime.

Well, there seem to be quite a few Christians/other theists in Texas, Alabama, and Florida (the main states where NASA operates), I'd say your load of crap is just that, Subby: crap.

/So sick of the religious rejecting science stereotype

The administration may not want to take the blame, but the buck has to stop somewhere.
They wanted to switch from contract to commercial and here it is. Four capsules, two spaceplanes, half a dozen rockets and everything you need. Several of them now flight tested, reliable vendors. Launch ready programs, Just add money.

...SO WHERE'S THE FARKING MONEY, OBAMA?! WHAT IS OUR DESTINATION?

Cost ain't the problem and neither is equipment. We've had a lack of leadership through the last four presidencies and that is what's really starting to show.

fonebone77:
I guess if you frame it in that exploration requires manned missions, we aren't exploring much. NASA realized that manned missions are mostly a waste of money for actual science. They are really just big PR moves. Now, does science in America need some PR right about now? Probably, but NASA is still going to concentrate on actual science without a specific mandate and funding for manned missions. Id rather get the James Webb up than go to Mars at this point personally. We have a pretty good idea of whats on Mars even if we haven't been there in person. The one compelling reason I can see to send manned missions to Mars is for a more in depth search for proof of life. That would obviously be a MASSIVE discovery.

+1 on the Webb, but Mars is going to be the stepping stone that gets us to the outer planets. The vision is going to have to be 200 years out, but if we are going to get off this rock, we need to eventually get on that one.

StoneColdAtheist: fonebone77: The one compelling reason I can see to send manned missions to Mars is for a more in depth search for proof of life. That would obviously be a MASSIVE discovery.

We could send 100 or maybe even a thousand small life-seeking rovers to Mars for the price of a single flag-planting manned mission.

Personally, I like the flag-planting manned mission better.

We've sent more robotic missions to Mars than I can count. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great, and the US seems to be the only space power that can get a rover on another planet without it breaking (see the Soviets' efforts on Venus to get what I'm saying here), but every mission says the same things:

1) There's nothing living there.
2) The soil has a ton of iron in it.
3) See number one.
4) See number three.

We know there's nothing walking around up there, and that most of whatever lived there a few millenniums ago was incredibly simple. It's time to nut up or shut up on going there before someone else does. We still have a monopoly on the space outside of earth's immediate orbit. It's one of the Obama administration's biggest failures that we haven't developed a solid, decade-long plan to do so by now.

Rent Party: +1 on the Webb, but Mars is going to be the stepping stone that gets us to the outer planets. The vision is going to have to be 200 years out, but if we are going to get off this rock, we need to eventually get on that one.

I wholeheartedly agree with the 200 year vision thing, but why is Mars critical to going to the outer rings?

StoneColdAtheist: ...why is putting people on Mars critical to going to the outer rings?

FTFM

So all you nerds cry about when humanity is going into space and pine for "The federation" when the nations unite and join all the other aliens out in space

But really you're all just a bunch of nationalist pricks who don't want other nations to achieve any advancement.

I've got news for you nerds: Jean Luc Picard is French.

StoneColdAtheist: StoneColdAtheist: ...why is putting people on Mars critical to going to the outer rings?

FTFM

Basically that. We need to be able to practice putting them somewhere until we can get it right. There is also the 40 to 250 million mile head start it gives us if we can develop launch capabilities there. It would be the big truck stop in space before you head out to Jupiter or Saturn.

WTF Indeed: First, meet Skylab. From 1973 to 1979, Skylab was in orbit. The Space Shuttle was designed to service the replacement for Skylab.

Or ideally, delay the need for a replacement. Took too long to get going though.

Now they can populate Mars even faster than they hoped

Rent Party: StoneColdAtheist: StoneColdAtheist: ...why is putting people on Mars critical to going to the outer rings?

FTFM

Basically that. We need to be able to practice putting them somewhere until we can get it right. There is also the 40 to 250 million mile head start it gives us if we can develop launch capabilities there. It would be the big truck stop in space before you head out to Jupiter or Saturn.

That's what God put the Moon up there for (okay, j/k on the God part). Besides, half the time or more Mars is not in launch position for any given outward bound mission, and it has a deep gravity well, making it expensive to get on and off of. In short, I think we have to consider Mars a destination in and of itself, but going there to beat the Chinese is not a sufficient reason.

From an engineering perspective, EVERY possible soft landing place in the system further out than Mars has gravity even lighter than the Moon's, so the Moon is adequate to test everything we need to do in space for the next several hundred years.

StoneColdAtheist: Rent Party: StoneColdAtheist: StoneColdAtheist: ...why is putting people on Mars critical to going to the outer rings?

FTFM

Basically that. We need to be able to practice putting them somewhere until we can get it right. There is also the 40 to 250 million mile head start it gives us if we can develop launch capabilities there. It would be the big truck stop in space before you head out to Jupiter or Saturn.

That's what God put the Moon up there for (okay, j/k on the God part). Besides, half the time or more Mars is not in launch position for any given outward bound mission, and it has a deep gravity well, making it expensive to get on and off of. In short, I think we have to consider Mars a destination in and of itself, but going there to beat the Chinese is not a sufficient reason.

From an engineering perspective, EVERY possible soft landing place in the system further out than Mars has gravity even lighter than the Moon's, so the Moon is adequate to test everything we need to do in space for the next several hundred years.

The moon is going to forever be tied to the Earth, getting us no closer to the outer planets than we already are. Mars, at it's closest, to us is going to be 40 million miles closer, and if it's on the other side of the sun, 250 million miles closer. Gravity on Mars is less than 40% of Earths, and even if that were a problem, you can still launch from orbit, or if you gotta be on the ground, from Phobos, which is really just a great big asteroid.

And getting to the moon isn't going to be any kind of practice at all for the kinds of distances we need to get way out there. We've already been to the moon. We aren't anywhere near ready for the multiple year trip it would take to get to Jupiter.

logistic: WTF Indeed: Oh, you mean like we did in the early 60's with the Gemini missions? Call me back when China has been to the moon and has had rovers on Mars for over 8 years.

This is exactly the type of "logic" that is allowing them to rapidly blow past us.

"Hurr durr we did something 60 years ago that was cool so we will rule for eternity! AMURRICA!!!!"

Guess what? America never had their own space station. Mir and ISS were collaborative. China is going at it alone.

Skylab would like a word with you.

Sire, the Chinese may be close to building a spaceship to colonize Alpha Centauri.

We better take over their capital city soon.

Has anyone told logistic about Skylab yet?

1: ISS was funded/built mostly by NASA. So while Skylab was our only attempt at going alone, ISS wouldn't have been built without US taxpayer money/the space shuttle. Yes Europe/Japan and Russia have helped too but most of the resources for ISS came from the US.

2: By 2017 there should be ideally at least two private spacecraft operated by private US companies and bringing people to low earth orbit. This while China is going through the movements to catch up with the US/Russia in what they've done during the 60's. Yes China has said its going to send humans to the moon, but their economy is slowing and honestly they haven't done anything all that impressive with their space program yet. Call me when they do, then we'll start worrying.

3: Yes there is concern, and yes we are in many ways throwing our lead away when it comes to science and technology by not investing now in the future. Its to be expected though, our reaction to the idea of increasing government spending after barely recovering from such a financial crisis with more shaky ground all around us due to China/Europe. All is not lost though, yet.

Obamba's fault (the putz)

Nabb1: T.rex: Why is this sad? We don't have the money... Let some other country be a trailblazer for once, and they can incur the costs that go along with it...

Now, THAT is sad. Please go watch the videos I linked.

Agreed. That's the innovative equivalent of retirement. Might as well just resign ourselves to sitting near the border and yelling at people to get off our lawn.

ProfessorOhki: Nabb1: T.rex: Why is this sad? We don't have the money... Let some other country be a trailblazer for once, and they can incur the costs that go along with it...

Now, THAT is sad. Please go watch the videos I linked.

Agreed. That's the innovative equivalent of retirement. Might as well just resign ourselves to sitting near the border and yelling at people to get off our lawn.

The thing is, America is filled with people who feel guilty to be American (in particular, white people are like this) and share this attitude.

Frightening, I know.

logistic: WTF Indeed: Oh, you mean like we did in the early 60's with the Gemini missions? Call me back when China has been to the moon and has had rovers on Mars for over 8 years.

This is exactly the type of "logic" that is allowing them to rapidly blow past us.

"Hurr durr we did something 60 years ago that was cool so we will rule for eternity! AMURRICA!!!!"

Guess what? America never had their own Spacspace station. Mir and ISS were collaborative. China is going at it alone.

Skylab much?

Also, anyone who honestly believes we don't have the money to invest in our space program isn't very aware that our space program as is only consumes 0.67 percent. We can spend a full percent on NASA and still have enough money for war, and other shiat. We choose not to though. This isn't about the money, its about our lack of will to maintain something that we're the best at.

bbfreak: Also, anyone who honestly believes we don't have the money to invest in our space program isn't very aware that our space program as is only consumes 0.67 percent. We can spend a full percent on NASA and still have enough money for war, and other shiat. We choose not to though. This isn't about the money, its about our lack of will to maintain something that we're the best at.

Yeah, but the economic benefits of space exploration are unpredictable and often slow to materialize. The profits from war are huge, immediate, and assured.
Increasingly, it's the only thing our leaders can agree to spend money on.
Everything else becomes a battleground.

ProfessorOhki: Nabb1: T.rex: Why is this sad? We don't have the money... Let some other country be a trailblazer for once, and they can incur the costs that go along with it...

Now, THAT is sad. Please go watch the videos I linked.

Agreed. That's the innovative equivalent of retirement. Might as well just resign ourselves to sitting near the border and yelling at people to get off our lawn.

? Why should you care if an American is innovative verses a Chinese person? Aren't we all humans? It seems you guys want bragging rights or something... Why? What does it benefit you in the slightest what country is bouncing around in space?

The 'space race' in the 60's was born out of political propaganda, and it looks like some of you have not progressed beyond that.... Are the lives of Americans better because of what Buzz Aldrin and John Glen did?

Marine1: ProfessorOhki: Nabb1: T.rex: Why is this sad? We don't have the money... Let some other country be a trailblazer for once, and they can incur the costs that go along with it...

Now, THAT is sad. Please go watch the videos I linked.

Agreed. That's the innovative equivalent of retirement. Might as well just resign ourselves to sitting near the border and yelling at people to get off our lawn.

The thing is, America is filled with people who feel guilty to be American (in particular, white people are like this) and share this attitude.

Frightening, I know.

Not so much. As just disappointed in how much steam we've lost. It'd be nice if there was just one thing to point to and go "this is why," but I certainly don't see one. It's like we, as a people, got too comfortable and stopped trying to push for the sake of expanding horizons. Don't get me wrong, there's still tons of people doing great work, but it seems like the respect for those sorts of endeavors is gone.

On the bright side, I don't think most the people who go into those fields ever did it for the acclaim. On the downside, groundbreaking work tends to be expensive.

/There's things to feel guilty being an American about
//There's also plenty of things to take pride in
///If you can't see both, you're part of the problem

T.rex: Aren't we all humans?

Reading about the forced abortions in China and the man cutting off his daughter's head in India, I'm gonna go ahead and call that into question. Moving into space is our destiny as a species, but some of these countries need to catch up and join the human race before they worry about the space race.

Marine1:
We've sent more robotic missions to Mars than I can count.

You really can't count very high. I wouldn't be proud of it.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great, and the US seems to be the only space power that can get a rover on another planet without it breaking (see the Soviets' efforts on Venus to get what I'm saying here),

Uhhh actually the Soviet Venera missions were some of their most successful. They have been the only ones to successfully photograph the surface of Venus. Their martian missions on the other hand....

We know there's nothing walking around up there, and that most of whatever lived there a few millenniums ago was incredibly simple. It's time to nut up or shut up on going there before someone else does. We still have a monopoly on the space outside of earth's immediate orbit. It's one of the Obama administration's biggest failures that we haven't developed a solid, decade-long plan to do so by now.

And Bush's, and Clinton's and Bush's and Reagan's. In case no one has been paying attention one thing every one of the last 6 administration have had in common is dreaming big when it came to NASA missions but totally failing to come up with the money to pay for it.

T.rex: ProfessorOhki: Nabb1: T.rex: Why is this sad? We don't have the money... Let some other country be a trailblazer for once, and they can incur the costs that go along with it...

Now, THAT is sad. Please go watch the videos I linked.

Agreed. That's the innovative equivalent of retirement. Might as well just resign ourselves to sitting near the border and yelling at people to get off our lawn.

? Why should you care if an American is innovative verses a Chinese person? Aren't we all humans? It seems you guys want bragging rights or something... Why? What does it benefit you in the slightest what country is bouncing around in space?

The 'space race' in the 60's was born out of political propaganda, and it looks like some of you have not progressed beyond that.... Are the lives of Americans better because of what Buzz Aldrin and John Glen did?

Our universe as a nation was expanded and it had the psychological effect of making people see our planet for the insignificant ball of mud that it is. Spurring environmentalism, anti-war sentiment, and a wave of high tech development that would kick start the digital age?
Yes, I'd say the world is a better place because of he Apollo landings.

As for china, they really aren't doing this for the innovation. They want to be a superpower and superpowers have space programs. What they've made is the equivalent of the soyuze program.
This is about flexing their international muscle so people let the sit at the big boy table when negotiating things like trade or military matters.

Nabb1: WTF Indeed: Nabb1: In any event, our willingness to fall behind in space exploration is appalling, but that has more to do with apathy than anything else. We are no longer a society that aspires to greatness.

You mean the willingness for Republican administrations and Congresses to gut NASA funding,

Because the current Administration has been oh-so gung-ho about space exploration and funding NASA to the point where our astronauts now have to bum rides to work from the Russians.


We come to you from der Outer Spaces, and we caught Saddam using future technologies.
[See my cod piece]

EatTheWorld: Don't forget most of the vast majority of the world has some foolish mystical belief about life and death. Not just us dumb Americans.

Yeah, it's hard for me to get all worked up over an accomplishment that's been mastered almost 50 years ago.

I, for one, welcome our new Chinese Vaginauts.

way south: The administration may not want to take the blame, but the buck has to stop somewhere.
They wanted to switch from contract to commercial and here it is. Four capsules, two spaceplanes, half a dozen rockets and everything you need. Several of them now flight tested, reliable vendors. Launch ready programs, Just add money.

...SO WHERE'S THE FARKING MONEY, OBAMA?! WHAT IS OUR DESTINATION?

Cost ain't the problem and neither is equipment. We've had a lack of leadership through the last four presidencies and that is what's really starting to show.

The money is tied up in a Congressionaly mandated boondoggle called the Senate Launch System, tell congress to quit dicking around and let NASA move to a realistic exploration architecture.