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(IndyStar)   In case you were curious, your premium gets jacked up an extra $1.7 million if a vintage plane crashes at your air race. And you have to push the grandstands back an extra 150 feet from the course   (indystar.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, plane crashes, air race, P-51 Mustang, Central Indiana  
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7905 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jun 2012 at 8:51 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-17 05:44:37 PM  
Also new this year is gravity-induced loss of consciousness training to increase pilots' awareness of G-forces, Houghton said.

What? The guy who crashed had a plane that was set up requiring max nose-down trim just to keep it level, when that trim tab gave up the ghost he was hit with about 12Gs instantaneously, he was out in a couple of seconds and couldn't move to do anything about before he was out. As long as most of those planes are set up the same way they'd do a lot more for safety by requiring reinforcement of the trim tabs and elevators.
 
2012-06-17 06:27:59 PM  
The training includes....certain things to avoid,like Viagra


Sensible precaution: A stiffness of over 4 hours spells trouble in ANY setting.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-06-17 08:30:02 PM  
Can they not buy insurance and dare people to sue them? In some states doctors don't have to buy malpractice insurance, and legend has it some of them proudly display their lack of insurance to scare away lawyers.
 
2012-06-17 08:55:56 PM  
Seems like something that could be solved by a couple large men in suits visiting the offices of the insurance agent that quoted that figure.
 
2012-06-17 08:56:22 PM  
www.richardandmimi.com

It's a short, short crash into Reno, Nevada
It's a long, long course that you've flown.
But your racing plane is beginning to tumble
And you crash to the crowd like a stone.

You can sail through the air, bash your face through a window
You can make a screeching sou-ound!
You can pray night and day, take a chance on the pre-flight
You can make a big hole in the ground...
 
2012-06-17 08:58:18 PM  
Apos: The training includes....certain things to avoid,like Viagra


Sensible precaution: A stiffness of over 4 hours spells trouble in ANY setting.


Well, anything for which the remedy is sticking a 14 gauge, 3 inch long needle into your penis to drain the blood out is a bad thing.
 
2012-06-17 09:05:52 PM  

BronyMedic: Well, anything for which the remedy is sticking a 14 gauge, 3 inch long needle into your penis to drain the blood out is a bad thing.


I took a medication once with priapism as a side effect.

I was never so glad to have my nose swell completely shut and be unable to breath through it for 6 hours.
 
2012-06-17 09:17:08 PM  
The grandstands are not being moved. The pylons for the planes are being moved.
 
2012-06-17 09:22:42 PM  
fluffy2097: I took a medication once with priapism as a side effect.

I was never so glad to have my nose swell completely shut and be unable to breath through it for 6 hours.


I watched urology treat (needle) a Priapism during my clinicals in Paramedic school.

I will -never- take viagra after seeing that.
 
2012-06-17 09:26:43 PM  

BronyMedic: fluffy2097: I took a medication once with priapism as a side effect.

I was never so glad to have my nose swell completely shut and be unable to breath through it for 6 hours.

I watched urology treat (needle) a Priapism during my clinicals in Paramedic school.

I will -never- take viagra after seeing that.


Does the treatment have any long-lasting effects on the machinery?
 
2012-06-17 09:27:35 PM  
sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net

Life insurance pays off triple if you die on a business trip.
 
2012-06-17 09:31:53 PM  
I bought an alarm system for my house after it was broken into.

It really works.
 
2012-06-17 09:34:53 PM  

vossiewulf: Also new this year is gravity-induced loss of consciousness training to increase pilots' awareness of G-forces, Houghton said.

What? The guy who crashed had a plane that was set up requiring max nose-down trim just to keep it level, when that trim tab gave up the ghost he was hit with about 12Gs instantaneously, he was out in a couple of seconds and couldn't move to do anything about before he was out. As long as most of those planes are set up the same way they'd do a lot more for safety by requiring reinforcement of the trim tabs and elevators.


It wasn't mentioned in that lame article, but they are requiring the teams to do more testing at race speeds and other engineering review.

Also not mention is that the 'rookie racer' Rod Hightower is the President of EAA.
 
2012-06-17 09:43:14 PM  
The family that got killed last year, including the guy they couldn't even find, went to my parents' church.
 
2012-06-17 09:49:55 PM  
They bought their tickets to the event. They knew what they were getting into. I say let the planes crash into them.
 
2012-06-17 10:02:20 PM  
Dear Jerk: The family that got killed last year, including the guy they couldn't even find, went to my parents' church.

Well, don't be like the guy they couldn't find and go to pieces about it.
 
2012-06-17 10:05:31 PM  

fisker: I bought an alarm system for my house after it was broken into.

It really works.


so far. you say.
 
GBB
2012-06-17 10:08:29 PM  

fisker: I bought an alarm system for my house after it was broken into.

It really works.


I invested in an automated system that closes the barn door when the horses get out.
 
2012-06-17 10:08:55 PM  
I live in Reno, and was there last year so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies...
 
2012-06-17 10:09:38 PM  
An ancient air frame modified and set up to strain both the pilot and plane? Yeah, let's blame the Race.

The farking pilot had no business doing what he did. Sue his insurance company and estate.
 
2012-06-17 10:19:44 PM  
how to stay hydrated and certain things to avoid, like Viagra, biplane pilot Eric Zine said.

Isn't having two joysticks in the cockpit safer?
 
2012-06-17 10:20:20 PM  
I've been to that event in the past; I'm planning on going again. I'm more likely to be killed in a car accident between now and then, than to be killed by an airplane crash AT the show.

Yes, do what you can to make it reasonably safe for the competitors and the spectators, but accidents sometimes happen, and there's no such thing as "perfectly safe."
 
2012-06-17 10:33:51 PM  

Boudica's War Tampon: An ancient air frame modified and set up to strain both the pilot and plane? Yeah, let's blame the Race.

The farking pilot had no business doing what he did. Sue his insurance company and estate.


They really should put an age limit on the pilots. A 75 year old guy in a P-51 doesn't have the reflexes to handle it, even in stock configuration. Push it up to above Vne, a crash is just a matter of time. Even if they have a valid FAA medical, that means little more than they have a pulse. Although in this case, pilot age wasn't a factor. Any pilot will G-LOC at 12g, even with a G-suit.

A friend of my gf had a stock P-51. On a go around, he put in full throttle and torque rolled it into some hangars. Even in stock configuration, the engine has enough power to roll the plane at slow airspeed when there isn't enough airflow over the wings/tail to maintain directional control. Increase the power and shorten the wings and it is even harder to control.
 
2012-06-17 10:52:29 PM  

clear_prop: Boudica's War Tampon: An ancient air frame modified and set up to strain both the pilot and plane? Yeah, let's blame the Race.

The farking pilot had no business doing what he did. Sue his insurance company and estate.

They really should put an age limit on the pilots. A 75 year old guy in a P-51 doesn't have the reflexes to handle it, even in stock configuration. Push it up to above Vne, a crash is just a matter of time. Even if they have a valid FAA medical, that means little more than they have a pulse. Although in this case, pilot age wasn't a factor. Any pilot will G-LOC at 12g, even with a G-suit.

A friend of my gf had a stock P-51. On a go around, he put in full throttle and torque rolled it into some hangars. Even in stock configuration, the engine has enough power to roll the plane at slow airspeed when there isn't enough airflow over the wings/tail to maintain directional control. Increase the power and shorten the wings and it is even harder to control.


You're also talking about most of these airplanes not even being airworthy in the typical sense in that they're regular production aircraft. Most, if not all of them are operating under the FAA's principle of 'Experimental' types. In the case of that P-51 that ate it last year- I do believe the wings were shorter/ modified to make the plane faster more agile by increasing the wing loading, and the pilot HAD BEEN having issues with the elevator trim tabs for a bit before that race...he had just been lucky enough to get the problem before it got him.
 
2012-06-17 10:55:55 PM  
You must construct additional pylons!
 
2012-06-17 11:00:32 PM  

ZAZ: Can they not buy insurance and dare people to sue them? In some states doctors don't have to buy malpractice insurance, and legend has it some of them proudly display their lack of insurance to scare away lawyers.


This sorta makes sense. Hey I dont have insurance and I have no money. You cant bleed a rock dry.
 
2012-06-17 11:01:38 PM  

Dear Jerk: The family that got killed last year, including the guy they couldn't even find, went to my parents' church.


I'm not sure, but I don't think your parent's church is working.
 
2012-06-17 11:07:03 PM  
I have been going to the races for the last five years. Last year my wife and I were all set to go and my brother showed up unexpectedley so we decided to tahe him out to the Peppermill for dinner and some gambling. One of the dealers told is about the crash. I feel lucky but I will be going this summer.
 
2012-06-17 11:08:22 PM  

davidphogan: They bought their tickets to the event. They knew what they were getting into. I say let the planes crash into them.


Surely you can't be serious.
 
2012-06-17 11:11:37 PM  

YodaBlues: davidphogan: They bought their tickets to the event. They knew what they were getting into. I say let the planes crash into them.

Surely you can't be serious.


Don't call me Shirley.

/What do I win?
 
2012-06-17 11:15:17 PM  

camaroash: YodaBlues: davidphogan: They bought their tickets to the event. They knew what they were getting into. I say let the planes crash into them.

Surely you can't be serious.

Don't call me Shirley.

/What do I win?


less than a tenth of an internet, smart guy...
 
2012-06-17 11:17:38 PM  

TheEdibleSnuggie: You're also talking about most of these airplanes not even being airworthy in the typical sense in that they're regular production aircraft. Most, if not all of them are operating under the FAA's principle of 'Experimental' types. In the case of that P-51 that ate it last year- I do believe the wings were shorter/ modified to make the plane faster more agile by increasing the wing loading, and the pilot HAD BEEN having issues with the elevator trim tabs for a bit before that race...he had just been lucky enough to get the problem before it got him.


Yeah, the Reno racers in all the classes are pretty much all on Experimental/Exhibition or Experimental/Air racing certificates. Some of the Sport class planes are Exp/Am-Built, but that is about it. No one has a standard airworthiness certificate. Hence my mentions of non-stock airplanes.

For those not familiar with FAA speak, being certified Experimental/Exhibition or Exp/Air racing basically means the builders/modifiers of the plane say that it isn't likely to crash and the FAA limits when/where it can be flown. Basically just at airshows and/or air races, and practice for such events.

Experimental/Amateur-Built is the classic guy builds a plane in his garage. Once they have flown off their flight test time (25-40hrs usually), they can be flown anywhere a standard category aircraft can be flown, in most cases.

Modifying a plane for air racing, even a standard category plane, will put it into Exp/Exh or Exp/Air Racing.
 
2012-06-17 11:18:05 PM  
It seems to me that a trimmable stabilizer or stabilator would be far less likely to fail in this manner than the existing elevator trim.. That's not easy and it wouldn't be cheap, but they modify these things nearly beyond recognition most of the time anyway. Why not update the vertical stab/elevator/trim to a system more capable of handling the speed range they actually fly in?
 
2012-06-17 11:21:48 PM  

TheEdibleSnuggie: You're also talking about most of these airplanes not even being airworthy


Yeah, right... they are racing clunkers that are held together with glue and tape... I'm sure the owners spend millions of dollars on planes that barely run. Moron.

They are all ex-military aircraft, The only way to license them is to classify them under the Experimental category. Every B-17 that flies is also licensed this way for example.
 
2012-06-17 11:24:12 PM  

clear_prop: Also not mention is that the 'rookie racer' Rod Hightower is the President of EAA.


Any relation to Moses Hightower?

4.bp.blogspot.com
/RIP, Bubba
 
2012-06-17 11:30:43 PM  

costermonger: It seems to me that a trimmable stabilizer or stabilator would be far less likely to fail in this manner than the existing elevator trim.. That's not easy and it wouldn't be cheap, but they modify these things nearly beyond recognition most of the time anyway. Why not update the vertical stab/elevator/trim to a system more capable of handling the speed range they actually fly in?


It has been done. One of the P-51 based planes (Miss Ashley II) that crashed about a decade back had the wings and tail of a Learjet.

I say P-51 based since one you replace the wings and tail, trim the fuselage and modify the engine, about the only thing left of the original P-51 is the data plate.
 
2012-06-18 12:02:28 AM  

clear_prop: It has been done. One of the P-51 based planes (Miss Ashley II) that crashed about a decade back had the wings and tail of a Learjet.

I say P-51 based since one you replace the wings and tail, trim the fuselage and modify the engine, about the only thing left of the original P-51 is the data plate.


*googles Miss Ashley II*

Really does seem like Russian roulette with warbirds.
 
2012-06-18 12:12:14 AM  

HeliumAddict: TheEdibleSnuggie: You're also talking about most of these airplanes not even being airworthy

Yeah, right... they are racing clunkers that are held together with glue and tape... I'm sure the owners spend millions of dollars on planes that barely run. Moron.

They are all ex-military aircraft, The only way to license them is to classify them under the Experimental category. Every B-17 that flies is also licensed this way for example.


Just because it flies doesn't necessarily mean it's airworthy (that's why the FAA has special/ temporary flight permits to allow such things).

The FAA states that in order for an aircraft to be airworthy under it's original airworthiness certificate- all the original parts/ replacements for the originals (which have to be certified under a separate STC and airworthiness modification) must be operating as normal without significant modification to allow their proper use. I could take stock magnetic compass out of my 172 and replace it with whatever the fark kind of magnetic compass I like, but if it's not certified for use in my aircraft I'm not legal to fly, and the aircraft has just become an experimental- requiring said paperwork to become legal, and if I decide to fly and get a spot check by the FAA...I'm TOAST.

Plus, the Experimental category gives you A LOT of leeway with what you can do with your aircraft, and the FAA hands those things out like candy. So I don't really put much credence on the airworthiness or reliability of the aircraft just because it has one.

I remember having this same conversation with the local FSDO/FDO...needless to say after that conversation I don't feel any more reassured about the role of the FAA in ensuring 'safety.'
 
2012-06-18 12:15:48 AM  

costermonger: *googles Miss Ashley II*

Really does seem like Russian roulette with warbirds.


I hope the Sport class keeps maturing so that it can take over the role of the Unlimited class so they stop crashing warbirds. I know there are engine builders who won't build engines for racing since there are only so many airworthy Merlin engine cores out there, and the racing guys blow up a few every year.
 
2012-06-18 12:17:02 AM  

TheEdibleSnuggie: I remember having this same conversation with the local FSDO/FDO...needless to say after that conversation I don't feel any more reassured about the role of the FAA in ensuring 'safety.'


Properly assigned liability, however.. They've got that covered.
 
2012-06-18 12:20:31 AM  

TheEdibleSnuggie: I remember having this same conversation with the local FSDO/FDO...needless to say after that conversation I don't feel any more reassured about the role of the FAA in ensuring 'safety.'


For Exp/Exh or Exp/AR, the FAA limits practice to over unpopulated areas, and in theory the setbacks of the crowd line at airshows/air races will keep the crash away from people.

The FAA doesn't care about the safety of the plane much, they just want the pieces of it to land away from people. Put another way, the FAA doesn't care if an Experimental aircraft crashes, just as long as it doesn't hit anything on the ground.
 
2012-06-18 12:32:35 AM  

clear_prop: I hope the Sport class keeps maturing so that it can take over the role of the Unlimited class so they stop crashing warbirds. I know there are engine builders who won't build engines for racing since there are only so many airworthy Merlin engine cores out there, and the racing guys blow up a few every year.


I find the modifications in the Unlimited Class intriguing but distasteful. Technically interesting, to be sure, but it just seems wrong to be using "real" Mustangs, etc. Lots of them are almost entirely fabricated, but nobody builds the engines from scratch.
 
2012-06-18 01:22:55 AM  
The one thing I find interesting in the aftermath of the crash is the lack of lawsuits en mass that could have ended the races for good. I'm sure the ambulance chasers were lining up to file "my feelings were hurt" lawsuits, but it didn't happen, and those that did found themselves in the minority. Many of those who were injured chose to support the races continuing. It's one of the the last air racing events and I'm happy to see it continue. Anyone who's afraid of air racing because it's dangerous (which it is) should just stay the fark home and stop trying to ruin things for everyone else.
 
2012-06-18 01:33:10 AM  
Man this thread is bringing out a lot of Reno farkers. When do we get our Fark party?!
 
2012-06-18 02:20:07 AM  

bombsaway814: Man this thread is bringing out a lot of Reno farkers. When do we get our Fark party?!


Most people think Reno is near Vegas or something.
 
2012-06-18 02:24:04 AM  
vossiewulf: Also new this year is gravity-induced loss of consciousness training to increase pilots' awareness of G-forces, Houghton said.

What? The guy who crashed had a plane that was set up requiring max nose-down trim just to keep it level, when that trim tab gave up the ghost he was hit with about 12Gs instantaneously, he was out in a couple of seconds and couldn't move to do anything about before he was out. As long as most of those planes are set up the same way they'd do a lot more for safety by requiring reinforcement of the trim tabs and elevators.

The guy who crashed was not wearing his shoulder harness. At the end of the day, surely that must have been the most significant factor in the thing, something that is rarely commented upon. if he had is harness on, he would not have slumped forward in the cockpit and would have had a fighting chance, whatever the trim tab situation was.

In other news, he was also flying a P-51 with the entire air scoop at the bottom removed to say nothing about the extensive cockpit/fuselage modifications. i'm not a fan of people who do this sort of thing to historic aircraft, which means that i am not a fan of reno. even though the aircraft are "common" P-51s and so forth, they belong either in a museum or on an airshow circuit as warbirds.
 
2012-06-18 02:25:44 AM  
johngiger: I have been going to the races for the last five years. Last year my wife and I were all set to go and my brother showed up unexpectedley so we decided to tahe him out to the Peppermill for dinner and some gambling. One of the dealers told is about the crash. I feel lucky but I will be going this summer.

greatstorybro.jpg

prayforjohngiger.com
 
2012-06-18 02:36:24 AM  

Glendale: bombsaway814: Man this thread is bringing out a lot of Reno farkers. When do we get our Fark party?!

Most people think Reno is near Vegas or something.


This. And it is farking annoying.
 
2012-06-18 02:37:00 AM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: The guy who crashed was not wearing his shoulder harness. At the end of the day, surely that must have been the most significant factor in the thing, something that is rarely commented upon. if he had is harness on, he would not have slumped forward in the cockpit and would have had a fighting chance, whatever the trim tab situation was.


He slumped down, not forward. I haven't heard that he wasn't wearing his shoulder harness before, but even if true, it wouldn't have made any difference.

Astronauts, who are very fit and conditioned to high Gs, have trouble moving in 3-4G during launch. Fighter pilots with G-suits on frequently G-LOC at 9G or less. At 12G, a 200lb person weighs over a ton. No human, no matter how fit, is going to be able to do anything but slump down in their seat at 12G.

There was another P-51 that had a similar trim tab failure a few years back, but just went into a straight climb. The pilot of that one suffered G-LOC, and came to at over 10,000ft, and was able to recover. He was lucky in that his plane had the trim tab failure while flying level.
 
2012-06-18 08:59:49 AM  
That is why I don't like insurance, they are happy to scam off while nothing happens, but if they have to pay out once, they will try and get that money right back out of you or drop you off. I wonder for how many years they've been paying 0.3million $ while nothing happened?
 
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