FARK.com: (7167450) USAF deserter comes in from the cold after 28 years because it's really cold in Sweden. Tag is for deserting in the first place

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		USAF deserter comes in from the cold after 28 years because it's really cold in Sweden. Tag is for deserting in the first place (reuters.com)		241
		More: Dumbass, Sweden, United States, residence permit, permanent residence, air forces, U.S. Air Force

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Spasticus Autisticus		2012-06-17 01:27:09 PM

Hemler escapes from Germany, still alive. This is big news

upload.wikimedia.org

BarkingUnicorn		2012-06-17 01:29:25 PM

He planned to stay in Sweden for a week and ended up with a wife and three kids 28 years later. That's some planning!

Sgt Otter		2012-06-17 01:43:18 PM

He deserted from the Air Force? What, was he mad they forgot to leave a mint on his pillow?

/I keed, I keed.

cman		2012-06-17 01:46:43 PM

I am the exact opposite of this asshole

I would join the Chair Force to avoid going to Sweden

ToxicMunkee		2012-06-17 01:51:51 PM

Sgt Otter: He deserted from the Air Force? What, was he mad they forgot to leave a mint on his pillow?

/I keed, I keed.

But seriously. I was in the Air Force and if he couldn't stick it out for four years he's the giantest pussy that ever pussed.

doglover		2012-06-17 01:58:42 PM

ToxicMunkee: Sgt Otter: He deserted from the Air Force? What, was he mad they forgot to leave a mint on his pillow?

/I keed, I keed.

But seriously. I was in the Air Force and if he couldn't stick it out for four years he's the giantest pussy that ever pussed.

Dagens Nyheter said David Hemler had deserted aged 21 while serving at a U.S. Air Force base in Germany, after getting involved with a pacifist church and becoming disillusioned with the policies of former President Ronald Reagan.

I can see that.

The president is nice and all, but just because someone's elected doesn't mean they're worth your life. No wars going on, no desire to kill strangers, no leader you respect in the Oval Office. I can see why he left.

What brought him back?

doglover		2012-06-17 02:00:42 PM

larrycot		2012-06-17 02:02:12 PM

He went to Sweden.... And married a Thai? Dumbass tag indeed.

Benevolent Misanthrope		2012-06-17 02:51:29 PM

"My dream scenario is that the responsible authorities realize I have already been punished quite severely for my actions ... I have been living 28 years in lies," Hemler said.

My dream scenario is that people hear this and ask, "If it was so terrible, and such a punishment, why did you do it for 28 years?", and then extradite him to the US to face trial for his crime. Let him explain it to the courts.

"My crime IS my punishment! it's been so awful, living here in Sweden, with my Thai hoochie-mama and my free health care and my government job! You should let me stay in this briar patch as punishment!"

Basically, he wants it both ways - deserter, cushy life, no punishment, and gets to have his old life back, too. Doesn't work that way for most of us - you make your decisions and live with them.

doglover		2012-06-17 02:56:54 PM

Benevolent Misanthrope: "My dream scenario is that the responsible authorities realize I have already been punished quite severely for my actions ... I have been living 28 years in lies," Hemler said.

My dream scenario is that people hear this and ask, "If it was so terrible, and such a punishment, why did you do it for 28 years?", and then extradite him to the US to face trial for his crime. Let him explain it to the courts.

"My crime IS my punishment! it's been so awful, living here in Sweden, with my Thai hoochie-mama and my free health care and my government job! You should let me stay in this briar patch as punishment!"

Basically, he wants it both ways - deserter, cushy life, no punishment, and gets to have his old life back, too. Doesn't work that way for most of us - you make your decisions and live with them.

Send him back to the military as a basic slave for the prescribed time.

No clearance, no weapons, and a minder. Sleeps locked up. Does what it's told or it gets the hose again.

A year or so of that should be punishment enough. If it's not, the military trains its soldiers different than it used to.

Spad31		2012-06-17 03:32:49 PM

He took the Black. He left the Wall. He's craven. He loses his head.

/Hodor

Lionel Mandrake		2012-06-17 03:41:52 PM

cman: I am the exact opposite of this asshole

I would join the Chair Force to avoid going to Sweden

Yeah, Sweden is such a hellhole

cman		2012-06-17 03:43:45 PM

Lionel Mandrake: cman: I am the exact opposite of this asshole

I would join the Chair Force to avoid going to Sweden

Yeah, Sweden is such a hellhole

What else could one expect from a Liberal paradise?

Lionel Mandrake		2012-06-17 03:48:54 PM

cman: Lionel Mandrake: cman: I am the exact opposite of this asshole

I would join the Chair Force to avoid going to Sweden

Yeah, Sweden is such a hellhole

What else could one expect from a Liberal paradise?

If by "liberal paradise" you mean friendly people, low crime, excellent education, beautiful country...then yeah

Like I said, what a hellhole

chiett		2012-06-17 03:50:46 PM

My dream scenario is that he face a trial and 28 years in prison (Military Prison, not that cushy place with the crotch biters).

Served in that time period, nothing tuff about it.

Sgt Otter		2012-06-17 03:55:18 PM

Lionel Mandrake: cman: Lionel Mandrake: cman: I am the exact opposite of this asshole

I would join the Chair Force to avoid going to Sweden

Yeah, Sweden is such a hellhole

What else could one expect from a Liberal paradise?

If by "liberal paradise" you mean friendly people, low crime, excellent education, beautiful country...then yeah

Like I said, what a hellhole

...and the hottest soccer fans on the planet:

americansportsblog.files.wordpress.com

Arkanaut		2012-06-17 04:01:18 PM

Finally ran out of horse chestnuts?

unicron702		2012-06-17 04:01:26 PM

Sgt Otter: He deserted from the Air Force? What, was he mad they forgot to leave a mint on his pillow?

/I keed, I keed.

They shut off the cable in the barracks and the hot tub was acting up, so he bounced. He got a medal for lasting as long as he did.

TravisBickle62		2012-06-17 04:01:53 PM

Where's the "HERO" tag?

LarryDan43		2012-06-17 04:02:47 PM

The lesson here is, never get involved with a church that preaches peace.

Englebert Slaptyback		2012-06-17 04:03:14 PM

Spasticus Autisticus

Hemler escapes from Germany

Just so we're clear...

You were able to find and post an image - one that contains the name of the person - and you still misspelled the name. Wow.

StrikitRich		2012-06-17 04:03:48 PM

"The conservative-raised airman hitchhiked through Denmark to Sweden after getting involved with a pacifist church - and a girl."

A 21 year-old leaving for a girl? Say it isn't so!

Elephantman		2012-06-17 04:03:49 PM

Spent 4 years at LRAFB..... got married and have 5 kids and married 28 years this year so I'm get a kick out of these replies.

/it's all true
//also have 2 Grandsons
///also spent 3 years in Germany
////Reagan wasn't 'that' bad
//Little Rock Air Force Base Arkansas

xcv		2012-06-17 04:08:18 PM

Lionel Mandrake		2012-06-17 04:09:05 PM

Sgt Otter: Lionel Mandrake: cman: Lionel Mandrake: cman: I am the exact opposite of this asshole

I would join the Chair Force to avoid going to Sweden

Yeah, Sweden is such a hellhole

What else could one expect from a Liberal paradise?

If by "liberal paradise" you mean friendly people, low crime, excellent education, beautiful country...then yeah

Like I said, what a hellhole

...and the hottest soccer fans on the planet:

[americansportsblog.files.wordpress.com image 420x271]

[hillusionist.com image 500x376]

[www.epltalk.com image 500x375]

I bet all those chicks are socialists!!!

...eewwwwwww

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom		2012-06-17 04:11:19 PM

Englebert Slaptyback: Spasticus Autisticus

Hemler escapes from Germany

Just so we're clear...

You were able to find and post an image - one that contains the name of the person - and you still misspelled the name. Wow.

The guy in the article is named Hemler.

Christian Bale		2012-06-17 04:11:35 PM

If everyone did what this guy did, there would be no wars.

Just a clusterfark of immigration statuses as ex-soldiers hid out in various other countries.

SN1987a goes boom		2012-06-17 04:12:17 PM

MusicMakeMyHeadPound		2012-06-17 04:13:17 PM

Lionel Mandrake: cman: Lionel Mandrake: cman: I am the exact opposite of this asshole

I would join the Chair Force to avoid going to Sweden

Yeah, Sweden is such a hellhole

What else could one expect from a Liberal paradise?

If by "liberal paradise" you mean friendly people, low crime, excellent education, beautiful country...then yeah

Like I said, what a hellhole

How about you shut up about Sweden and let the mouthbreathers continue to think of it as a "hellhole". :p

buckler		2012-06-17 04:13:40 PM

Exactly what is the term for a USAF prison? USMC, USN and USCG get brigs, and the USA gets stockades.

Nogale		2012-06-17 04:15:19 PM

What a selfish jerk, to put his family through that kind of torture. Not knowing the fate of a loved one is horrible - you can't even grieve and move on.

buckler		2012-06-17 04:16:00 PM

buckler: Exactly what is the term for a USAF prison? USMC, USN and USCG get brigs, and the USA gets stockades.

Oh, never mind. "Confinement Facility". Sounds like them.

MusicMakeMyHeadPound		2012-06-17 04:16:22 PM

buckler: Exactly what is the term for a USAF prison? USMC, USN and USCG get brigs, and the USA gets stockades.

"Recreational Retreat"

/just kidding, it's "confinement"

cman		2012-06-17 04:16:41 PM

TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

Gergesa		2012-06-17 04:17:57 PM

According to Fark, Thai women are among the most attractive women on the planet so perhaps we need a look at the thai in question to decide if the average farker would be able to resist.

Clunge		2012-06-17 04:18:41 PM

Lots of Internet Tough Guys here who never served in the military blasting this guy. Rather amusing to see someone who is too pussy to sign up talking smack about this guy.

Christian Bale		2012-06-17 04:18:48 PM

cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

Someone who kills unquestioningly on order?

Bad_Seed		2012-06-17 04:21:05 PM

Arkanaut: Finally ran out of horse chestnuts?

Came here for this.

dave2198		2012-06-17 04:22:00 PM

cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom		2012-06-17 04:23:09 PM

gogurt666		2012-06-17 04:23:13 PM

Dumbass indeed. Who joins the military and doesn't want to be part of the military??? A retard that's who. He disappeared from the "6913th Electronic Security Squadron" not the Marines. He wasn't engaging in hand-to-hand combat and mowing down gooks with a M60. Fark this cry baby!

unicron702		2012-06-17 04:25:24 PM

dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ball.

gogurt666		2012-06-17 04:28:55 PM

dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

Exactly. He was a signals analyst with the air force in germany. The only thing he was killing was his liver with all the beer he was drinking on the weekends.

dave2198		2012-06-17 04:31:03 PM

unicron702: dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ball.

His job was manning a desk in Germany. Not every soldier is Captain America.

TheBigJerk		2012-06-17 04:31:34 PM

Clunge: Lots of Internet Tough Guys here who never served in the military blasting this guy. Rather amusing to see someone who is too pussy to sign up talking smack about this guy.

Sgt Otter is currently serving.

Last I checked.

Anyways, FTFA: after getting involved with a pacifist church and becoming disillusioned with the policies of former President Ronald Reagan.

Religion is a helluva drug.

After his desertion, he became one of the U.S. Air Force's eight most wanted fugitives, according to the newspaper, and had expected at any time to be arrested by military police with both Interpol and Europol looking for him.

Do they just not have many fugitives? Or what? I mean fundamentally all the guy did was run out, and while that's a crime, it doesn't seem like hunting the man down would be cost-effective if all he's doing is hiding from you.

gadian		2012-06-17 04:33:23 PM

unicron702: It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ba

You don't really believe that "stopping the bad guys" is the job of the military or of this particular guy, do you? Because that would be military grade stupid and childish.

swahnhennessy		2012-06-17 04:34:28 PM

I was at a bar up here in Sweden a couple years ago, met a congenial Norwegian fellow. We got to talking and drinking and after a couple hours he tells me he's a fellow American. Or was, at any rate. He dodged the draft way back when and moved to Norway, where his parents were from. Had lived there ever since.

buckler		2012-06-17 04:35:23 PM

unicron702: dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ball.

Yeah, there's that whole "Oath of Office" thing, signatures on contracts, and multiple IRL versions of the "Are you sure you want to perform this operation?" thing.

LordOfThePings		2012-06-17 04:36:22 PM

Dessertion

Somaticasual		2012-06-17 04:36:46 PM

Clunge: Lots of Internet Tough Guys here who never served in the military blasting this guy. Rather amusing to see someone who is too pussy to sign up talking smack about this guy.

First, you don't have to be in the military to blast a guy who signs up THEN pusses out.

Second, Look at how many congressmans' sons never sign up, and get back to us on the equality of duty among citizens.

Third, not every military role is either combat or in danger. Are you saying those men are any less patriotic or necessary? The troops are nothing without logistics, and logistics are nothing without the troops. But they're both damn well serving their country.

Fourth, without saying anything about YOUR military experience, you're just going meta in terms of being an internet tough guy calling other internet tough guys by the same feather..

eggrolls		2012-06-17 04:39:30 PM

You know who else didn't finish his cushy fly-boy tour of duty?

www.fishandcheese.com

unicron702		2012-06-17 04:40:28 PM

dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ball.

His job was manning a desk in Germany. Not every soldier is Captain America.

He's directly involved, or assists those who are. It makes no difference. He knew what he was signing up for going in. He has a role to fill, and he biatched out, end of story.

Is that your only distinction? Captain America or a secretary? Those are our choices?

unicron702		2012-06-17 04:41:34 PM

buckler: unicron702: dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ball.

Yeah, there's that whole "Oath of Office" thing, signatures on contracts, and multiple IRL versions of the "Are you sure you want to perform this operation?" thing.

And he agreed to all of that, then walked away. What's left to discuss?

Fissile		2012-06-17 04:42:35 PM

larrycot: He went to Sweden.... And married a Thai? Dumbass tag indeed.

==============

Yeah, those Asian women are all nice and submissive until you say, "I do." Then it's nag, biatch, nag, biatch, nag biatch........just like all the rest of them......so yeah, he's a dumb-fark.

macadamnut		2012-06-17 04:43:38 PM

He had decided to come forward after his third daughter turned two and could go to day care, so his wife would be better able to cope if he was arrested.

Tag is for deserting in the first place.

Oh no it isn't.

MalumAltor		2012-06-17 04:46:23 PM

gogurt666: Dumbass indeed. Who joins the military and doesn't want to be part of the military??? A retard that's who. He disappeared from the "6913th Electronic Security Squadron" not the Marines. He wasn't engaging in hand-to-hand combat and mowing down gooks with a M60. Fark this cry baby!

/gooks
//lulz

ALL GIRLS AGREE TO PULL PANTIES DOWN		2012-06-17 04:47:27 PM

Clunge: Lots of Internet Tough Guys here who never served in the military blasting this guy. Rather amusing to see someone who is too pussy to sign up talking smack about this guy.

The first person who made fun of him was an Army guy. The kind of Army guy who actually shoots people, and even he admitted he it good-natured teasing. The first person to agree with him was an Air Force veteran who completed her enlistment.

I'm not really seeing this "lots."

dave2198		2012-06-17 04:47:53 PM

unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ball.

His job was manning a desk in Germany. Not every soldier is Captain America.

He's directly involved, or assists those who are. It makes no difference. He knew what he was signing up for going in. He has a role to fill, and he biatched out, end of story.

Is that your only distinction? Captain America or a secretary? Those are our choices?

When soldiers become disillusioned, they don't make very good workers anymore. If the military had a safety valve in place that would allow soldiers to resign their position when they feel they no longer believe in the mission, deserting wouldn't be necessary.

JWideman		2012-06-17 04:48:20 PM

unicron702		2012-06-17 04:51:06 PM

dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ball.

His job was manning a desk in Germany. Not every soldier is Captain America.

He's directly involved, or assists those who are. It makes no difference. He knew what he was signing up for going in. He has a role to fill, and he biatched out, end of story.

Is that your only distinction? Captain America or a secretary? Those are our choices?

When soldiers become disillusioned, they don't make very good workers anymore. If the military had a safety valve in place that would allow soldiers to resign their position when they feel they no longer believe in the mission, deserting wouldn't be necessary.

Oh I agree, not just in the military but in all professions. If something becomes too hard, or you no longer want to do it, you should be able to quit, no questions asked. I mean that's ridiculous, I know when I'm facing a challenge, or I no longer want any part of it I think just walking away is the best policy.

casual disregard		2012-06-17 04:52:18 PM

Somebody deserted from the Air Force in 1984?

Um, why?

Also this is the busiest pic I've seen all day:
blogs.reuters.com

dave2198		2012-06-17 04:55:10 PM

unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ball.

His job was manning a desk in Germany. Not every soldier is Captain America.

He's directly involved, or assists those who are. It makes no difference. He knew what he was signing up for going in. He has a role to fill, and he biatched out, end of story.

Is that your only distinction? Captain America or a secretary? Those are our choices?

When soldiers become disillusioned, they don't make very good workers anymore. If the military had a safety valve in place that would allow soldiers to resign their position when they feel they no longer believe in the mission, deserting wouldn't be necessary.

Oh I agree, not just in the military but in all professions. If something becomes too hard, or you no longer want to do it, you should be able to quit, no questions asked. I mean that's ridiculous, I know when I'm facing a challenge, or I no longer want any part of it I think just walking away is the best policy.

Would you rather have someone in charge of sensitive material who hates their job, doesn't believe in the mission, and isn't allowed to leave?

Of course you would, because 'merica.

HoratioGates		2012-06-17 04:55:20 PM

I understand that do to the nature of the military desertion has to be treated as a major crime, and therefore I don't think you can just let something like this slide, although perhaps a statute of limitations might be established. (I have nothing against draft dodgers on the other hand, they didn't sign up). Still, I think in times of relative peace, there should be a method for someone who has a change of conscience to leave the military. They should have to pay off any training they got, just like a student loan, and do some other sort of service for the country for the remainder of their tour. Unless he was deserting to avoid deployment to that horrible war in Grenada or Panama I think there should have been a better option.

dave2198		2012-06-17 04:55:47 PM

der Glitzkrieg		2012-06-17 04:56:17 PM

casual disregard: Somebody deserted from the Air Force in 1984?

Um, why?

Also this is the busiest pic I've seen all day:
[blogs.reuters.com image 640x434]

What makes it better/worse is the guy taking pictures and/or filming this with his cell phone.

/the cell phone has a farking One Piece sticker on it, too.

JPINFV		2012-06-17 04:56:47 PM

Somaticasual: Second, Look at how many congressmans' sons never sign up, and get back to us on the equality of duty among citizens.

I hate his argument. So you're saying that if my father was a congressman, that I should automatically have to sign up out of some sort of misplaced duty?

Lee Jackson Beauregard		2012-06-17 04:58:46 PM

At least he picked better than this clown. Desertion to North Korea is its own punishment.

HopScotchNSoda		2012-06-17 04:59:35 PM

TheBigJerk: Do they just not have many fugitives? Or what? I mean fundamentally all the guy did was run out, and while that's a crime, it doesn't seem like hunting the man down would be cost-effective if all he's doing is hiding from you.

It's two fold. No, they don't have many fugitives; such is the nature of military service. Unless one of your crimes is desertion or AWOL, the military has pretty good control over where you are. There is no bail or bond under the UCMJ and pre-trial confinement is quite rare.

The other part of the equation is his MOS & duties. Unlike an infantryman, cook, truck mechanic, paralegal specialist, he was in crypto. He had knowledge that, at the time, was of interest to the Soviets, East Germans and the Warsaw Pact in general (how much interest is hard to say). Another aspect of this is that when he deserted, the perfectly reasonable assumption on the part of his command and OSI is that he defected.

Gumaraid		2012-06-17 05:00:47 PM

Deserted in 1984? From the USAF? Doubt any one in the military really cares.

Pribar		2012-06-17 05:01:26 PM

Meh generally if you desert and evade for 5 or more years what they do is process you on a dishonorable discharge and boot ya to the curb, unless you committed some other crime or managed to really piss off someone in your chain of command with enough juice to get you court martialed, the general consensus is the restrictions a dishonorable discharge puts on your employment opportunities is enough punishment so why should we waste more resources on your worthless ass.

/assigned as a paperwork monkey for the JaG office while I was being processed for medical discharge, saw a few deserters go through the system, read some files on some others.
//hey my knee was immobilized in a contraption that looked like it was designed by the Marquis de Sade, bolts going into the bone everywhere and they gave me fecking tylenol, I needed distraction, even boring distractions.

DrWhy		2012-06-17 05:03:12 PM

How can be a deserter? There are no deserts in Sweden.

StrikitRich		2012-06-17 05:03:41 PM

Gumaraid: Deserted in 1984? From the USAF? Doubt any one in the military really cares.

He's still on the USAF's 8 most wanted list

Descartes		2012-06-17 05:04:18 PM

Best used of Dumbass tag in a long time.

unicron702		2012-06-17 05:06:39 PM

dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ball.

His job was manning a desk in Germany. Not every soldier is Captain America.

He's directly involved, or assists those who are. It makes no difference. He knew what he was signing up for going in. He has a role to fill, and he biatched out, end of story.

Is that your only distinction? Captain America or a secretary? Those are our choices?

When soldiers become disillusioned, they don't make very good workers anymore. If the military had a safety valve in place that would allow soldiers to resign their position when they feel they no longer believe in the mission, deserting wouldn't be necessary.

Oh I agree, not just in the military but in all professions. If something becomes too hard, or you no longer want to do it, you should be able to quit, no questions asked. I mean that's ridiculous, I know when I'm facing a challenge, or I no longer want any part of it I think just walking away is the best policy.

Would you rather have someone in charge of sensitive material who hates their job, doesn't believe in the mission, and isn't allowed to leave?

Of course you would, because you don't use your brain.

So you have no middle ground? No attempt at motivation? No attempt at building pride or happiness in the workplace? The first sign of trouble and you're cut loose? You're crossing the line from boredom in the workplace into an area of sensitive material compromise. Was it your attempt to be this extreme? You've gone from an unhappy worker into a security threat. Try to find that happy medium. If an employee isn't happy, try to talk it out with them. You're essentially saying a dissatisfied employee is walking out bitter, and with trade secrets. I don't see it like that. Did we move right past trying to make them enjoy their jobs and directly into espionage?

Pribar		2012-06-17 05:09:30 PM

StrikitRich: Gumaraid: Deserted in 1984? From the USAF? Doubt any one in the military really cares.

He's still on the USAF's 8 most wanted list

just looked that up, says security issue, either they think he sold out to the Soviets (not a irrational assumption in the 80s,) or he took some gear with him, if neither is the case then like I said earlier generally they will just process him, slap a dishonorable discharge into his file and say have a nice day.

Exception Collection		2012-06-17 05:13:43 PM

HopScotchNSoda: It's two fold. No, they don't have many fugitives; such is the nature of military service. Unless one of your crimes is desertion or AWOL, the military has pretty good control over where you are. There is no bail or bond under the UCMJ and pre-trial confinement is quite rare.

The other part of the equation is his MOS & duties. Unlike an infantryman, cook, truck mechanic, paralegal specialist, he was in crypto. He had knowledge that, at the time, was of interest to the Soviets, East Germans and the Warsaw Pact in general (how much interest is hard to say). Another aspect of this is that when he deserted, the perfectly reasonable assumption on the part of his command and OSI is that he defected.

This. Honestly, even without defecting to the Soviets he probably did a lot of actual damage - given what he worked with, they may have been forced to research and change codes that would not have been changed for years, including some that may have been hardwired.

Besides - quite honestly, how do we know that he didn't defect to the Soviets? They could've set him up in a posh setup as their equivalent to a witness protection program, and by now the evidence would pretty much all be gone.

dave2198		2012-06-17 05:13:50 PM

unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ball.

His job was manning a desk in Germany. Not every soldier is Captain America.

He's directly involved, or assists those who are. It makes no difference. He knew what he was signing up for going in. He has a role to fill, and he biatched out, end of story.

Is that your only distinction? Captain America or a secretary? Those are our choices?

When soldiers become disillusioned, they don't make very good workers anymore. If the military had a safety valve in place that would allow soldiers to resign their position when they feel they no longer believe in the mission, deserting wouldn't be necessary.

Oh I agree, not just in the military but in all professions. If something becomes too hard, or you no longer want to do it, you should be able to quit, no questions asked. I mean that's ridiculous, I know when I'm facing a challenge, or I no longer want any part of it I think just walking away is the best policy.

Would you rather have someone in charge of sensitive material who hates their job, doesn't believe in the mission, and isn't allowed to leave?

Of course you would, because you don't use your brain.

So you have no middle ground? No attempt at motivation? No attempt at building pride or happiness in the workplace? The first sign of trouble and you're cut loose? You're crossing the line from boredom in the workplace into an area of sensitive mater ...

Right, the military is going to "talk it out with him"? LOL. The military encourages one to find happiness in the workplace? LOL.

And do you think I was talking about someone leaving out of boredom? REALLY?

Like I said, you're not using your brain.

Somaticasual		2012-06-17 05:14:39 PM

JPINFV: Somaticasual: Second, Look at how many congressmans' sons never sign up, and get back to us on the equality of duty among citizens.

I hate his argument. So you're saying that if my father was a congressman, that I should automatically have to sign up out of some sort of misplaced duty?

If your father sends people to war to die but wouldn't send or let his own child go to war, then it's almost demeaning in the level of hypocrisy. It's not really a moral quandary built around the son's choice.

AtlanticCoast63		2012-06-17 05:14:46 PM

JWideman: TheBigJerk: Clunge: Lots of Internet Tough Guys here who never served in the military blasting this guy. Rather amusing to see someone who is too pussy to sign up talking smack about this guy.

Sgt Otter is currently serving.

Last I checked.

Anyways, FTFA: after getting involved with a pacifist church and becoming disillusioned with the policies of former President Ronald Reagan.

Religion is a helluva drug.

After his desertion, he became one of the U.S. Air Force's eight most wanted fugitives, according to the newspaper, and had expected at any time to be arrested by military police with both Interpol and Europol looking for him.

Do they just not have many fugitives? Or what? I mean fundamentally all the guy did was run out, and while that's a crime, it doesn't seem like hunting the man down would be cost-effective if all he's doing is hiding from you.

It was during the cold war and he knew some pretty sensitive things.

We have a winner. Please check out Davey's deserter page over at http://www.osi.andrews.af.mil/library/fugitives/hemler.asp

Oh, no, please take your time. I'll wait.

Ah, good, you're back. Did you see the part about "security issue"? My guess is that the nice religious girl he was hanging out with when he bailed was convincing him to give her information. My guess is that he'll be allowed to come home - Sweden won't extradite him for desertion, their laws and traditions won't allow it, and I am perfectly fine with that - to "just tie up loose ends." When he gets off the plane, he'll be arrested under Article 106a of the UCMJ, to wit:

(a) (1) Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any entity described in paragraph (2), either directly or indirectly, any thing described in paragraph (3) shall be punished as a court-martial may direct, except that if the accused is found guilty of an offense that directly concerns (A) nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large scale attack, (B) war plans, (C) communications intelligence or cryptographic information, or (D) any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy, the accused shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court- martial may direct.
(2) An entity referred to in paragraph (1) is-
(A) a foreign government;
(B) a faction or party or military force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States
(C) a representative, officer, agent, employee, subject, or citizen of such government, faction, party, or force.
(3) A thing refereed to in paragraph (1) is a document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance or information relating to the national defense.
(b) (1) No person may be sentenced by court-martial to suffer death for an offense under this section (article) unless-
(A) the members of the court-martial unanimously find at least one of the aggravating factors set out in subsection (c); and
(B) the members unanimously determine that any extenuating or mitigating circumstances are substantially outweighed by any aggravating circumstances, including the aggravating factors set out under subsection (c).
(2) Findings under this subsection may be based on-
(A) evidence introduced on the issue of guilt or innocence;
(B) evidence introduced during the sentencing proceeding; or
(C) all such evidence.
(3) The accused shall be given broad latitude to present matters in extenuation and mitigation.
(c) A sentence of death may be adjudged by a court-martial for an offense under this section (article) only if the members unanimously find, beyond a reasonable doubt, one or more of the following aggravating factors:
(1) The accused has been convicted of another offense involving espionage or treason for which either a sentence of death or imprisonment for life was authorized by statute.
(2) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of substantial damage to the national security.
(3) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of death to another person.
(4) Any other factor that may be prescribed by the President by regulations under section 836 of this title (Article 36).

Oh yes, the USAF will be able to arrest him. He is legally still in the USAF, he's never been discharged, retired, or otherwise separated.

And then, in a very small room with some very quiet, unpleasant men standing around him, they're going to show him a dusty file that details everything he handed over.

A deserter is never, ever forgotten.

Ever.

HopScotchNSoda		2012-06-17 05:15:24 PM

doglover: The president is nice and all, but just because someone's elected doesn't mean they're worth your life. No wars going on, no desire to kill strangers, no leader you respect in the Oval Office. I can see why he left.

This jackass' job (had he actually done it) was the kind that saved lives and negated the killing of strangers.

He was in the 6913th Electronic Security Squadron in Augsburg, Germany. What do you think that was? They collected and processed signals intelligence (SIGINT) from the other side of the Iron Curtain. For nearly half a century, the two most destructively powerful militaries had a Mexican stand-off. The Cold War was an uneasy truce that nearly came to global Armageddon more than once. Good intel was vital to keeping the peace. Paranoia, miss-assumptions, reasonable but inaccurate fears, and uncertainties were as dangerous as ICBMs; good intel protected the world against them.

Hemler's duty was preventing war, and he walked away from his post.

Tsar_Bomba1		2012-06-17 05:16:27 PM

He can't even grow a mustache...

HopScotchNSoda		2012-06-17 05:20:56 PM

Tsar_Bomba1: [www.osi.andrews.af.mil image 238x190]
He can't even grow a mustache...

I believe that's called a molester moustache or "molestache".

BlueFalconPunch		2012-06-17 05:23:21 PM

StrikitRich: Gumaraid: Deserted in 1984? From the USAF? Doubt any one in the military really cares.

He's still on the USAF's 8 most wanted list

just looked that up, says security issue, either they think he sold out to the Soviets (not a irrational assumption in the 80s,) or he took some gear with him, if neither is the case then like I said earlier generally they will just process him, slap a dishonorable discharge into his file and say have a nice day.

StrikitRich: Gumaraid: Deserted in 1984? From the USAF? Doubt any one in the military really cares.

He's still on the USAF's 8 most wanted list

just looked that up, says security issue, either they think he sold out to the Soviets (not a irrational assumption in the 80s,) or he took some gear with him, if neither is the case then like I said earlier generally they will just process him, slap a dishonorable discharge into his file and say have a nice day.

Pretty much this. I'm inclined to think that if they still have him on the 8 most wanted list after all this time, he did a major no-no and sold out something vital he had access to over to the Eastern-bloc

\No sympathy for deserters. He wasn't drafted, he made a concious choice to serve.

JPINFV		2012-06-17 05:23:47 PM

Somaticasual: JPINFV: Somaticasual: Second, Look at how many congressmans' sons never sign up, and get back to us on the equality of duty among citizens.

I hate his argument. So you're saying that if my father was a congressman, that I should automatically have to sign up out of some sort of misplaced duty?

If your father sends people to war to die but wouldn't send or let his own child go to war, then it's almost demeaning in the level of hypocrisy. It's not really a moral quandary built around the son's choice.

I agree with the point that if a father wouldn't send his son to war then he shouldn't send anyone to war, but that's not how it's ever constructed in a discussion. It's always constructed as, "Look at those congressmen who's children aren't in the military" like the children should lose their choice to join or not simply because of their parents profession. It ranks up there with the, "If you aren't in the military then you can't complain" argument in terms of pants on head stupid.

DrWhy		2012-06-17 05:24:34 PM

HoratioGates: I understand that do to the nature of the military desertion has to be treated as a major crime, and therefore I don't think you can just let something like this slide, although perhaps a statute of limitations might be established. (I have nothing against draft dodgers on the other hand, they didn't sign up). Still, I think in times of relative peace, there should be a method for someone who has a change of conscience to leave the military. They should have to pay off any training they got, just like a student loan, and do some other sort of service for the country for the remainder of their tour. Unless he was deserting to avoid deployment to that horrible war in Grenada or Panama I think there should have been a better option.

What about conscientious objector status? It sounds like he could have appealed his enlistment on grounds of that? Yes, I know that's normally a consideration for draft boards to allow draftees who are serious pacifists to not be forced to choose between violating their conscience or going to jail, but I wonder if there isn't some administrative procedure for investigating claims of a change of conscience of people already in the military and then giving these people an honorable/or at least not dishonorable discharge if their pacifism is found to be legit?

Void_Beavis		2012-06-17 05:25:13 PM

Try him in a military court and throw his ass in prison. He wasn't conscripted.

What an asshole.

DeathByGeekSquad		2012-06-17 05:32:06 PM

Clunge: Lots of Internet Tough Guys here who never served in the military blasting this guy. Rather amusing to see someone who is too pussy to sign up talking smack about this guy.

It's also pretty amusing to have veterans of the recent conflicts projecting their PTSD on internet forums, instead of being proactive about their health and getting appropriate treatment. Not to say that you're a vet, or that you have PTSD, but there has been an alarming increase of 20-somethings on the internet who come back from tours all farked up, looking to blame others for their issues.

Uisce Beatha		2012-06-17 05:35:58 PM

DrWhy: I wonder if there isn't some administrative procedure for investigating claims of a change of conscience of people already in the military and then giving these people an honorable/or at least not dishonorable discharge if their pacifism is found to be legit?

There isn't. If you volunteer, and then have a change of heart, you either finish out your contract, or you take the consequences of deserting.

/Was a religious lay leader in the Navy
//Collateral duty, not primary job, no room for actual chaplains on submarines
///Had a few guys questioning their service around 2003

GreenSun		2012-06-17 05:36:31 PM

Life Lesson:

If you've gotten away with something that you know is illegal, just keep quiet and move on.

Krieghund		2012-06-17 05:42:23 PM

chiett: My dream scenario is that he face a trial and 28 years in prison (Military Prison, not that cushy place with the crotch biters).

Served in that time period, nothing tuff about it.

You want to pay to confine him for 28 years?

Given his circumstances (he deserted during peacetime 28 years ago, etc) I'd say to just not let him come back.

forum.gon.com

JWideman		2012-06-17 05:44:17 PM

dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ball.

His job was manning a desk in Germany. Not every soldier is Captain America.

He's directly involved, or assists those who are. It makes no difference. He knew what he was signing up for going in. He has a role to fill, and he biatched out, end of story.

Is that your only distinction? Captain America or a secretary? Those are our choices?

When soldiers become disillusioned, they don't make very good workers anymore. If the military had a safety valve in place that would allow soldiers to resign their position when they feel they no longer believe in the mission, deserting wouldn't be necessary.

Oh I agree, not just in the military but in all professions. If something becomes too hard, or you no longer want to do it, you should be able to quit, no questions asked. I mean that's ridiculous, I know when I'm facing a challenge, or I no longer want any part of it I think just walking away is the best policy.

Would you rather have someone in charge of sensitive material who hates their job, doesn't believe in the mission, and isn't allowed to leave?

Of course you would, because you don't use your brain.

No, I'd rather them man up, tell the chaplain they are cracking, lose their clearance, get reassigned, and finish their enlistment.

intelligent comment below		2012-06-17 05:45:17 PM

unicron702: Sgt Otter: He deserted from the Air Force? What, was he mad they forgot to leave a mint on his pillow?

/I keed, I keed.

They shut off the cable in the barracks and the hot tub was acting up, so he bounced. He got a medal for lasting as long as he did.

He probably got tired of spying on allied politicians and foreign corporations or supporting murderous rebels in 3rd world shiatholes. You too would probably be disillusioned after realizing everything you do is to benefit Reagan's campaign donors not "defend America"

space_cadet_28		2012-06-17 05:45:21 PM

StrikitRich: He's still on the USAF's 8 most wanted list

They couldnt find 10 people for the list?

Wow.

unicron702		2012-06-17 05:46:03 PM

dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: unicron702: dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ball.

His job was manning a desk in Germany. Not every soldier is Captain America.

He's directly involved, or assists those who are. It makes no difference. He knew what he was signing up for going in. He has a role to fill, and he biatched out, end of story.

Is that your only distinction? Captain America or a secretary? Those are our choices?

When soldiers become disillusioned, they don't make very good workers anymore. If the military had a safety valve in place that would allow soldiers to resign their position when they feel they no longer believe in the mission, deserting wouldn't be necessary.

Oh I agree, not just in the military but in all professions. If something becomes too hard, or you no longer want to do it, you should be able to quit, no questions asked. I mean that's ridiculous, I know when I'm facing a challenge, or I no longer want any part of it I think just walking away is the best policy.

Would you rather have someone in charge of sensitive material who hates their job, doesn't believe in the mission, and isn't allowed to leave?

Of course you would, because you don't use your brain.

So you have no middle ground? No attempt at motivation? No attempt at building pride or happiness in the workplace? The first sign of trouble and you're cut loose? You're crossing the line from boredom in the workplace into an area of sen ...

If by you're brain you mean the thing I use to dictate that I can't just quit when I don't like it, then so be it.

hitlersbrain		2012-06-17 06:01:23 PM

After his desertion, he became one of the U.S. Air Force's eight most wanted fugitives,,,

This is why that TV show NCIS is so friggin stupid. Some bozo going AWOL puts him on the most wanted men list. Can you imagine how boring being a 'navy cop' would be? Rounding up low ranking men for not picking up their cigarette butts would be the most dangerous thing they would do all day.

As for this guy, who cares.

powhound		2012-06-17 06:01:27 PM

Oh, they will get their hands on him, one way or another. Since he is wanted for desertion from the US armed services Sweden will likely turn him over. And when they do he will be facing an interrogation that most definitely won't be a pleasant experience for this turd bucket. He can kiss his Thai wife good-bye forever. And the kids.

profplump		2012-06-17 06:02:01 PM

dave2198: Would you rather have someone in charge of sensitive material who hates their job, doesn't believe in the mission, and isn't allowed to leave?

You're not supposed to phrase it like that -- people like to believe that the modern world doesn't depend on slavery.

hitlersbrain		2012-06-17 06:04:17 PM

space_cadet_28: StrikitRich: He's still on the USAF's 8 most wanted list

They couldnt find 10 people for the list?

Wow.

There's the Right way,

The Wrong way,

And the Military way (which is the same as the wrong way but with more yelling).

At least that how it was when I was enlisted, before actual bullets starting flying.

intelligent comment below		2012-06-17 06:08:32 PM

powhound: Oh, they will get their hands on him, one way or another. Since he is wanted for desertion from the US armed services Sweden will likely turn him over. And when they do he will be facing an interrogation that most definitely won't be a pleasant experience for this turd bucket. He can kiss his Thai wife good-bye forever. And the kids.

Looks like someone didn't read TFA. so until then, STFU.

astouffer		2012-06-17 06:13:12 PM

AtlanticCoast63: A deserter is never, ever forgotten.

Ever.

Sounds like you need a hobby.

unicron702		2012-06-17 06:15:03 PM

Dave2198 is essentially getting "If you don't like it...quit".

casual disregard		2012-06-17 06:17:24 PM

intelligent comment below: powhound: Oh, they will get their hands on him, one way or another. Since he is wanted for desertion from the US armed services Sweden will likely turn him over. And when they do he will be facing an interrogation that most definitely won't be a pleasant experience for this turd bucket. He can kiss his Thai wife good-bye forever. And the kids.

Looks like someone didn't read TFA. so until then, STFU.

Eh, he read enough to know the wife was Thai.

The dude has a lawyer. If the lawyer is lawyer-smart, and it probably is, then it will have advised the deserter that he's in a good place right now and "going home" would be a damn bad farking idea unless he loves the idea of prison. If the deserter ignores its advice, that's his call. And his mistake. Better it would be to fly his family to Sweden than to go home if he wants to keep his current quality of life.

Bongo Blue		2012-06-17 06:18:40 PM

When the going gets tough...
Run!

Pancoaifo		2012-06-17 06:20:18 PM

AtlanticCoast63: JWideman: TheBigJerk: Clunge: Lots of Internet Tough Guys here who never served in the military blasting this guy. Rather amusing to see someone who is too pussy to sign up talking smack about this guy.

Sgt Otter is currently serving.

Last I checked.

Anyways, FTFA: after getting involved with a pacifist church and becoming disillusioned with the policies of former President Ronald Reagan.

Religion is a helluva drug.

After his desertion, he became one of the U.S. Air Force's eight most wanted fugitives, according to the newspaper, and had expected at any time to be arrested by military police with both Interpol and Europol looking for him.

Do they just not have many fugitives? Or what? I mean fundamentally all the guy did was run out, and while that's a crime, it doesn't seem like hunting the man down would be cost-effective if all he's doing is hiding from you.

It was during the cold war and he knew some pretty sensitive things.

We have a winner. Please check out Davey's deserter page over at http://www.osi.andrews.af.mil/library/fugitives/hemler.asp

Oh, no, please take your time. I'll wait.

Ah, good, you're back. Did you see the part about "security issue"? My guess is that the nice religious girl he was hanging out with when he bailed was convincing him to give her information. My guess is that he'll be allowed to come home - Sweden won't extradite him for desertion, their laws and traditions won't allow it, and I am perfectly fine with that - to "just tie up loose ends." When he gets off the plane, he'll be arrested under Article 106a of the UCMJ, to wit:

(a) (1) Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any entity described in paragraph (2), either directly or indirectly, any thing described in paragraph (3) shall be punished as a court-martial may direct, except that if the accused is found guilty of an offense that directly concerns (A) nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large scale attack, (B) war plans, (C) communications intelligence or cryptographic information, or (D) any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy, the accused shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court- martial may direct.
(2) An entity referred to in paragraph (1) is-
(A) a foreign government;
(B) a faction or party or military force within a foreign country, whether recognized or unrecognized by the United States
(C) a representative, officer, agent, employee, subject, or citizen of such government, faction, party, or force.
(3) A thing refereed to in paragraph (1) is a document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance or information relating to the national defense.
(b) (1) No person may be sentenced by court-martial to suffer death for an offense under this section (article) unless-
(A) the members of the court-martial unanimously find at least one of the aggravating factors set out in subsection (c); and
(B) the members unanimously determine that any extenuating or mitigating circumstances are substantially outweighed by any aggravating circumstances, including the aggravating factors set out under subsection (c).
(2) Findings under this subsection may be based on-
(A) evidence introduced on the issue of guilt or innocence;
(B) evidence introduced during the sentencing proceeding; or
(C) all such evidence.
(3) The accused shall be given broad latitude to present matters in extenuation and mitigation.
(c) A sentence of death may be adjudged by a court-martial for an offense under this section (article) only if the members unanimously find, beyond a reasonable doubt, one or more of the following aggravating factors:
(1) The accused has been convicted of another offense involving espionage or treason for which either a sentence of death or imprisonment for life was authorized by statute.
(2) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of substantial damage to the national security.
(3) In the commission of the offense, the accused knowingly created a grave risk of death to another person.
(4) Any other factor that may be prescribed by the President by regulations under section 836 of this title (Article 36).

Oh yes, the USAF will be able to arrest him. He is legally still in the USAF, he's never been discharged, retired, or otherwise separated.

And then, in a very small room with some very quiet, unpleasant men standing around him, they're going to show him a dusty file that details everything he handed over.

A deserter is never, ever forgotten.

Ever.

Technically, you are correct.

But what's the benefit to the AF pursuing charges? I'm sure some JAG flunky would love to rack up an easy conviction but what's the point?

The guy effectively expatriated. There's nothing the US can take away from him he hasn't already given up.

I think he's a chickenshiat weasel of the basest order but I don't see the value in punishing a 28 year old crime that is, immediately, victimless.

The US should just declare him persona non grata and maybe float his name to interpol from time to time, for the giggles.

But, if he can be tied to actual injurious crimes, drop the hammer on him.

TheMysteriousStranger		2012-06-17 06:23:08 PM

powhound: Oh, they will get their hands on him, one way or another. Since he is wanted for desertion from the US armed services Sweden will likely turn him over. And when they do he will be facing an interrogation that most definitely won't be a pleasant experience for this turd bucket. He can kiss his Thai wife good-bye forever. And the kids.

Peacetime desertion is unlikely to get him life. Given that he has done well after his desertion and since the U.S. government probably does not want to antagonize Sweden, he will probably get no more than a year or two.

DarkVader		2012-06-17 06:35:38 PM

TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

THIS!!!

We get one where the

tag is actually deserved, and some asshole puts the wrong tag on.

For all who either don't get into the military or realize it was a stupid decision and leave it.

powhound		2012-06-17 06:35:43 PM

intelligent comment below: powhound: Oh, they will get their hands on him, one way or another. Since he is wanted for desertion from the US armed services Sweden will likely turn him over. And when they do he will be facing an interrogation that most definitely won't be a pleasant experience for this turd bucket. He can kiss his Thai wife good-bye forever. And the kids.

Looks like someone didn't read TFA. so until then, STFU.

You are right...I didn't read thisFA...I read one from a different source. Are you referring to the "unlikely extradition" comment? If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you. The military doesn't forget, nor forgive. Even if Sweden refuses to extradite him....he will need to be very careful with his movments.

Found an interesting read on the extradition agreement between Sweden and the US. It's not an official source, but I'm hoping it's accurate:

Link

Article V. has an interesting exception:
4. When the offense is purely military.

Not sure what the meaning of that is exactly.

MusicMakeMyHeadPound		2012-06-17 06:36:07 PM

TheMysteriousStranger: powhound: Oh, they will get their hands on him, one way or another. Since he is wanted for desertion from the US armed services Sweden will likely turn him over. And when they do he will be facing an interrogation that most definitely won't be a pleasant experience for this turd bucket. He can kiss his Thai wife good-bye forever. And the kids.

Peacetime desertion is unlikely to get him life. Given that he has done well after his desertion and since the U.S. government probably does not want to antagonize Sweden, he will probably get no more than a year or two.

In addition, he's done no crimes in Sweden, has actively helped Sweden's government, and the US already owes Sweden major favors for the ridiculous MAFIAA deals impacting Swedish society a couple of years ago, so the idea of him being extradited is ludicrous.

intelligent comment below		2012-06-17 06:38:53 PM

powhound: Even if Sweden refuses to extradite him....he will need to be very careful with his movments.

So they're going to send a hit squad for him? Just STFU already.

YouPeopleAreCrazy		2012-06-17 06:39:48 PM

Somaticasual: Second, Look at how many congressmans' sons never sign up, and get back to us on the equality of duty among citizens.

The percentage of congresscritters who have served, or who have children served or serving, is higher than the general population.

Moving on, this dude is a douche. No one forced him to enlist. Later, no one forced him into a semi-sensitive job. If it offends thee, don't join in the first place. If you have a change of heart in the first couple of years,...it sucks to be you. Stick it out and leave. Or be enough of an idiot that they kick you out.

Prison? No (unless there are other issues). But dishonorable discharge, and all that goes with that? Yes.

We had more than one dude like this. Idiots.

/USAF Ret
//20 yrs, 3 weeks, 1 day

MusicMakeMyHeadPound		2012-06-17 06:45:15 PM

DarkVader: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

THIS!!!

We get one where the tag is actually deserved, and some asshole puts the wrong tag on.

I have to disagree with you there. Welching out of a contract that you voluntarily signed is decidedly un-heroic.

I think he was an especially stupid twenty-something-year-old and he deserves the AWOL branding, but I would agree with him that living 28 years in lies is punishment enough.

Neither a hero nor a villain.

And those of you calling for retribution on this guy are

Pancoaifo		2012-06-17 06:46:15 PM

DrWhy: HoratioGates: I understand that do to the nature of the military desertion has to be treated as a major crime, and therefore I don't think you can just let something like this slide, although perhaps a statute of limitations might be established. (I have nothing against draft dodgers on the other hand, they didn't sign up). Still, I think in times of relative peace, there should be a method for someone who has a change of conscience to leave the military. They should have to pay off any training they got, just like a student loan, and do some other sort of service for the country for the remainder of their tour. Unless he was deserting to avoid deployment to that horrible war in Grenada or Panama I think there should have been a better option.

What about conscientious objector status? It sounds like he could have appealed his enlistment on grounds of that? Yes, I know that's normally a consideration for draft boards to allow draftees who are serious pacifists to not be forced to choose between violating their conscience or going to jail, but I wonder if there isn't some administrative procedure for investigating claims of a change of conscience of people already in the military and then giving these people an honorable/or at least not dishonorable discharge if their pacifism is found to be legit?

Appealed a contract he willfully entered?

A buddy of mine took a humanitarian discharge because his mother died and he had an 8 year old sister. (dad was not in the picture). He accepted the offer to be discharged so he could be her guardian. He retained the benefits he had earned up to that point.

I knew a chaplain who once yelled at me for killing a spider rather than moving it outside and releasing it. That chaplain also spent the prior 20 years as a civilian paramedic. And I would gladly hurt anyone that insulted him. (well, try to)

There is plenty of room for conscience in the military. In many ways, far more so than any civilian employer I've ever had. But the military cannot abide people who want to claim takebacks after they reap the bennies. That is where the change of mind runs afoul of sworn commitment to service.

I have zero problems with anyone who refuses to take up arms. I admire that level of dedication to principles and self-knowledge. I do have problems with someone who swears to defend the country and then says "hey, y'all saw my fingers were crossed, right?"

DarkVader		2012-06-17 06:48:17 PM

Oh, and the "crime" of desertion is actually unconstitutional, and has been since just after the civil war.

Little thing called the 13th amendment, bans slavery. Even slavery you sell yourself into.

And any job you can't quit is, by definition, slavery.

StrikitRich		2012-06-17 06:51:34 PM

space_cadet_28: StrikitRich: He's still on the USAF's 8 most wanted list

They couldnt find 10 people for the list?

Wow.

The list is made up of kiddie diddlers, drug users and deserters.

powhound		2012-06-17 06:55:42 PM

intelligent comment below: powhound: Even if Sweden refuses to extradite him....he will need to be very careful with his movments.

So they're going to send a hit squad for him? Just STFU already.

WTF is your problem, exactly?

yellowjester		2012-06-17 06:58:17 PM

TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

this

HopScotchNSoda		2012-06-17 07:04:07 PM

If the only charge against him is desertion, then extradition would appear to be barred by Art. V § 4 of the extradition treaty (purely military offence). Given that the schmuck was in SIGINT in the midst of the Cold War in Germany, however, spying or some related civilian crime(s) incorporated into the UCMJ through Art. 134 may be on the table.

There is also another provision in the supplement, however, that requires that not only must the alleged offences be ones that would be offences in Sweden were the roles reversed, but that the Swedish courts would have jurisdiction in such circumstances. If Sweden's counterpart espionage laws have statutes of limitations and require an indictment, then that could negate the hypothetical jurisdiction and thus the availability of extradition.

Lord Howard Hurtz		2012-06-17 07:14:06 PM

Works on information technology, knows how to keep secrets well and for a long time, family man, living in a neutral country, believed to be an enemy of our government...

Sounds like someone who could spy on the Russians for us.

bahknee		2012-06-17 07:16:58 PM

I see that trollmitter was quite successful.

SweetDickens		2012-06-17 07:19:59 PM

Anyone who can stand up to the 'tards in the military is a hero....him deserting?, makes him a hero. How is that extra tour doing in the sand doin'? Save anyone lately? In WWII people were being thrown into prison camps and murdered.....now you are just bombing Lbg's for no frkin' reason.........Military people....class A drones........

elkraf		2012-06-17 07:20:27 PM

Shoot him!

NecoConeco		2012-06-17 07:21:08 PM

TheBigJerk: Clunge: Lots of Internet Tough Guys here who never served in the military blasting this guy. Rather amusing to see someone who is too pussy to sign up talking smack about this guy.

Sgt Otter is currently serving.

Last I checked.

Anyways, FTFA: after getting involved with a pacifist church and becoming disillusioned with the policies of former President Ronald Reagan.

Religion is a helluva drug.

After his desertion, he became one of the U.S. Air Force's eight most wanted fugitives, according to the newspaper, and had expected at any time to be arrested by military police with both Interpol and Europol looking for him.

Do they just not have many fugitives? Or what? I mean fundamentally all the guy did was run out, and while that's a crime, it doesn't seem like hunting the man down would be cost-effective if all he's doing is hiding from you.

From the AFOSI website: AFOSI opens an investigation on any Air Force member that is classified a deserter by the member's command. AFOSI will then classify the deserter a fugitive if either of the two following requirements is met: a) if the member deserted to avoid a criminal investigation, prosecution or incarceration, or b) if the member had access to any level of classified information that, if disclosed, would jeopardize national security interests of the United States.

GizmoToy		2012-06-17 07:28:18 PM

AtlanticCoast63: A deserter is never, ever forgotten.

Ever.

Except when they are, like after Vietnam.

Sxooter		2012-06-17 07:38:45 PM

doglover: No clearance, no weapons, and a minder. Sleeps locked up. Does what it's told or it gets the hose again.

He's gonna go back in the Air Force. Unless he's flying a fighter jet or an MP the most dangerous thing he might handle would be some kind of gardening implement.

Degenerate Monkey		2012-06-17 07:45:05 PM

Neither hero nor dumbass; only human.

I wouldn't call joining-pacifist-church-and-knocking-up-Thai-lady "pussing out." I'd call it a change of plans. It's not like there's anything to "puss out" about in the Air Force.

redmid17		2012-06-17 07:51:34 PM

Degenerate Monkey: Neither hero nor dumbass; only human.

I wouldn't call joining-pacifist-church-and-knocking-up-Thai-lady "pussing out." I'd call it a change of plans. It's not like there's anything to "puss out" about in the Air Force.

I'd say dumbass is a pretty safe tag knowing that he willingly signed up for a pre-determined amount of time and left early knowing full well that his specialty held considerable amount of interest for enemy governments and he wouldn't be allowed to go home.

lazyguineapig33		2012-06-17 07:52:28 PM

step 1: refuse to kill and be killed for the benefit of bankers and the government in their pockets
step 2: live a wonderful happy productive life
step 3: get called a dumbass by fark chicken hawks.
step 4: victory

Gaylord Fister		2012-06-17 07:58:44 PM

First off, when did Fark become so full of right wing farktards? Sounds like a lot of people identify with Hitler's statement, "the soldier can die, the deserter must die."

Second, who in their right mind would give any sort of important classified information to a 21 year old? All you have to do to get him to talk is fill him up with booze and wave a pair of tits in front of his face.

Nem Wan		2012-06-17 08:01:12 PM

It's good to know there are only 7 people in the Air Force worse than this, and all this guy did was desert? I mean, they have more bad guys in Star Trek and that's supposed to be an idealized future.

MikeMc		2012-06-17 08:03:14 PM

I love this from the article comments:

Forget about him, except for the VA. If he asks for medical care some day, they can know who he is and show him to the door.

VA medical care? He lives in Sweden, they have universal health care. He has "free" access to much better quality care than he would ever get from the VA. Some "punishment" that would be...

Oxygen_Thief		2012-06-17 08:13:09 PM

Gaylord Fister: First off, when did Fark become so full of right wing farktards? Sounds like a lot of people identify with Hitler's statement, "the soldier can die, the deserter must die."

Second, who in their right mind would give any sort of important classified information to a 21 year old? All you have to do to get him to talk is fill him up with booze and wave a pair of tits in front of his face.

We give classified information to 18 year-olds as does every military in the history of the world. Welcome to the Military chap. Meh..I think OSI thinks the dude was a possible defector and have some evidence that supports that..pure speculation on my part.

Slartibartfaster		2012-06-17 08:25:40 PM

ToxicMunkee: I was in the Air Force and if he couldn't stick it out for four years

Sometimes its not how rough it is on you
It is how rough you are instructed to act on others

Those things those folk (ie; you) drop are not daisies.

que.guero		2012-06-17 08:25:57 PM

The worst punishment will be when the IRS comes after him for 28 years of back taxes, interest, fees and penalties...

WordyGrrl		2012-06-17 08:26:32 PM

He was on a Crypto team that (most likely) handled top secret info? The kind of "what does the US know about us and what technology are they using to get that information?" info that could have gotten a lot of people killed if it'd fallen into the wrong hands? Sounds like he ditched his post with the data equivalent of a suitcase nuke. "Desertion" will be the least of the offenses they throw at him.

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom		2012-06-17 08:28:49 PM

lazyguineapig33: step 1: refuse to kill and be killed for the benefit of bankers and the government in their pockets
step 2: live a wonderful happy productive life
step 3: get called a dumbass by fark chicken hawks.
step 4: victory

Say what you will about the guy, but he certainly farked step 1 up when he enlisted.

Maverick Couch		2012-06-17 08:33:59 PM

que.guero: The worst punishment will be when the IRS comes after him for 28 years of back taxes, interest, fees and penalties...

Uh, no.

AtlanticCoast63		2012-06-17 08:35:17 PM

GizmoToy: AtlanticCoast63: A deserter is never, ever forgotten.

Ever.

Except when they are, like after Vietnam.

Except they weren't. Draft dodgers were extended an amnesty, deserters weren't. If they had been forgotten, there would'nt be an estimated 50K draft dodgers/deserters still in Canada and overseas. Every last one of the deserters has a file, and every last one of them is subject to arrest if they ever set foot here again. Are we actively looking for them? Nope. Will we treat them as they deserve if we run across one? Probably not. Any of the Vietnam era deserters would probably be detained for a few days(and not likely in a jail, but in visitors' quarters at a military post) until they were discharged. But they have not been forgotten. They have committed a Federal offense with no statute of limitations, and it doesn't just go away.

HopScotchNSoda		2012-06-17 08:35:35 PM

que.guero: The worst punishment will be when the IRS comes after him for 28 years of back taxes, interest, fees and penalties...

Except that the penalties are based on the amount of taxes owed and, since foreign taxes are generally deductible and Sweden has sky high tax rates, he probably doesn't owe any U.S. taxes.

shivashakti		2012-06-17 08:38:16 PM

I'd give him the HERO tag.

HopScotchNSoda		2012-06-17 08:46:44 PM

Nem Wan: It's good to know there are only 7 people in the Air Force worse than this, and all this guy did was desert? I mean, they have more bad guys in Star Trek and that's supposed to be an idealized future.

What part of "the Air Force's top eight fugitives" was unclear? Sure, there are any number of worse bastards in the Air Force, locked up in a confinement facility, pending trial, under suspicion, or who are not suspected and thus "got away with it". He is one of the top eight fugitives from the Air Force -- that is, one of the eight most wanted in the Air Force who are deserters currently on the run. The other eight deserters include:
    * Another deserter from the 1980s (no other crime listed)
    * A rapist & forceable sodomite who brandished a weapon.
    * Wrongful user of controlled substances.
    * Deserter / Assauter
    * A guy under investigation for an unspecified "security issue"
    * A captain in surveillance systems who deserted in the 1980s
    * A kiddie diddler who may have committed suicide
Hemler's wanted page also mentions an unspecified "security issue" (Duh, considering he deserted from a SIGINT unit in Germany during the bloody Cold War).

HopScotchNSoda		2012-06-17 08:50:44 PM

HopScotchNSoda: The ~~other eight~~ ["other seven" or "remainder of the eight"] deserters include:

FIFM

krackpipe		2012-06-17 09:02:08 PM

WordyGrrl: He was on a Crypto team that (most likely) handled top secret info? The kind of "what does the US know about us and what technology are they using to get that information?" info that could have gotten a lot of people killed if it'd fallen into the wrong hands? Sounds like he ditched his post with the data equivalent of a suitcase nuke. "Desertion" will be the least of the offenses they throw at him.

True. 6913th Electronic Security Squadron. The trend these days (post 9/11) is to spare no expense even on those who merely embarrass us, eg Assange. That policy arguably backfires by making us look hypocritical or overzealous. But Hemler apparently had real EEFI, and thereby the capability to have caused damage, even inadvertently. We'll see.

One Bad Apple		2012-06-17 09:23:37 PM

To the rescue

CasperImproved		2012-06-17 10:07:18 PM

In my best Pink Floyd voice to this guy (as the American official in charge of allowing this cretin to enter the US border)... "Can anybody Hear you?".

He deserves to rot in an ignoble death that obscurity would blush at. Chocking on a chicken bone in a disease and drug ridden part of Sweden that he was gnawing on from someones trash comes to mind.

Yah... I feel that way.

CasperImproved		2012-06-17 10:09:05 PM

CasperImproved: In my best Pink Floyd voice to this guy (as the American official in charge of allowing this cretin to enter the US border)... "Can anybody Hear you?".

He deserves to rot in an ignoble death that obscurity would blush at. Chocking on a chicken bone in a disease and drug ridden part of Sweden that he was gnawing on from someones trash comes to mind.

Yah... I feel that way.

Chocking? meet the correct word... choking.

The WindowLicker		2012-06-17 10:20:15 PM

krackpipe: True. 6913th Electronic Security Squadron. The trend these days (post 9/11) is to spare no expense even on those who merely embarrass us, eg Assange. That policy arguably backfires by making us look hypocritical or overzealous. But Hemler apparently had real EEFI, and thereby the capability to have caused damage, even inadvertently. We'll see.

Also, SIGINT was a huge deal during the cold war. The various units that flew the collection planes lost a fair number of men when the planes were shot down. While things had somewhat cooled down by the 80's, there were people being killed to obtain the information he was supposed to protect.

I have no idea what his deal is, but I can see why the Air Force has not forgotten. I just was at the memorial ceremony for the "Turbulent Turtle" a short time back. The "Turtle" was a SIGINT plane shot down in 1950, the government does not forget.

Spasticus Autisticus		2012-06-17 10:20:25 PM

obamadidcoke		2012-06-17 10:41:49 PM

So what, a young man found pacifism and he made a commitment to it. I respect that.
Sometimes you have to do what you think is right and moral even if it costs you.

I served in the army in the first gulf war and there is no honor in war, its mean and dirty and I hope that my son never has to be a part of it.

The cold war is over let's all just go home.

the cake is a pie		2012-06-17 10:51:52 PM

FTFA: Now aged 49, he is married to a woman from Thailand, has three children and works for a Swedish government agency, but would not let the newspaper print his assumed name.

SELECT * FROM comrades WHERE age=49 AND spouseCountryOfOrigin='Thailand' AND numChildren=3;

In a country as small and as white as Sweden, surely that list can't be all that long. At most, maybe a couple hundred matches in the entire country. So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that if there isn't a [followup] article in the next few days, the USAF has pretty much stopped caring.

Tyranicle		2012-06-17 10:54:20 PM

Lesson learned? Pussy makes you do some crazy sh*t.

WriteInCandidate		2012-06-17 10:55:37 PM

I wonder how many planes he scuttled while practicing to get there.

www.supamov.net

/hotlinked

CasperImproved		2012-06-17 10:57:32 PM

obamadidcoke: So what, a young man found pacifism and he made a commitment to it. I respect that.
Sometimes you have to do what you think is right and moral even if it costs you.

I served in the army in the first gulf war and there is no honor in war, its mean and dirty and I hope that my son never has to be a part of it.

The cold war is over let's all just go home.

Then your decision process lacks maturity.

Make an oath you can't honor? You don't diserve respect. Sorta like deadbeat dads.

I hope your son also does not have to be "part of" the ugly thing war is. But if he swears an oath, he should honor it (and himself) by completing that obligation.

But if you make a promise (oath), you should honor it. Do what you will when your obligation is over, but to run away and cry "I a disillusioned!" is an excuse for cowardice, and deserves no ones respect.

Lunaville		2012-06-17 11:14:36 PM

LarryDan43: The lesson here is, never get involved with a church that preaches peace.

Especially here in the USA. Nothing is more vile and disgusting to the average American than peace.

chuggernaught		2012-06-17 11:19:36 PM

Sgt Otter: He deserted from the Air Force? What, was he mad they forgot to leave a mint on his pillow?

Way late, glad to see this was covered early.

/dumbass tag is appropriate.Spasticus Autisticus: Englebert Slaptyback: Spasticus Autisticus

[cdn.inquisitr.com image 500x375]

Swing and a miss on image use.

Lunaville		2012-06-17 11:20:02 PM

unicron702: buckler: unicron702: dave2198: cman: TravisBickle62: Where's the "HERO" tag?

If deserting the Airforce for no cause is considered a hero to you, I hate to see what your definition of a villain is

He walked away from his job. He didn't murder any children. Get some perspective.

It isn't a job. He didn't work fast food, he was supposed to defend a country. Maybe if he had been there, he would've stopped some 3rd world POS "soldier" from killing a couple of kids. So yeah, I take it back, THAT was his job. Stopping the bad guys. Instead, he dropped the ball.

Yeah, there's that whole "Oath of Office" thing, signatures on contracts, and multiple IRL versions of the "Are you sure you want to perform this operation?" thing.

And he agreed to all of that, then walked away. What's left to discuss?

The military is the only "job" that disallows walking away. Someday we will recognize that it is contractual slavery. Either you can leave when you want or you can't. If you can't leave at will, you are being deprived of your liberty. It is an immoral contract.

Lunaville		2012-06-17 11:24:40 PM

Pribar: Meh generally if you desert and evade for 5 or more years what they do is process you on a dishonorable discharge and boot ya to the curb, unless you committed some other crime or managed to really piss off someone in your chain of command with enough juice to get you court martialed, the general consensus is the restrictions a dishonorable discharge puts on your employment opportunities is enough punishment so why should we waste more resources on your worthless ass.

/assigned as a paperwork monkey for the JaG office while I was being processed for medical discharge, saw a few deserters go through the system, read some files on some others.
//hey my knee was immobilized in a contraption that looked like it was designed by the Marquis de Sade, bolts going into the bone everywhere and they gave me fecking tylenol, I needed distraction, even boring distractions.

Is your knee okay?

Lunaville		2012-06-17 11:32:42 PM

Uisce Beatha: DrWhy: I wonder if there isn't some administrative procedure for investigating claims of a change of conscience of people already in the military and then giving these people an honorable/or at least not dishonorable discharge if their pacifism is found to be legit?

There isn't. If you volunteer, and then have a change of heart, you either finish out your contract, or you take the consequences of deserting.

/Was a religious lay leader in the Navy
//Collateral duty, not primary job, no room for actual chaplains on submarines
///Had a few guys questioning their service around 2003

Your post makes me even more sympathetic towards this guy. It is unthinkable to me that there is no recognition that people might grow, develop a relationship with G-d, or have a sincere change in moral understanding.
Doesn't anyone learn about William Penn anymore?

xebeche_tzu		2012-06-17 11:40:50 PM

Yes, subby. The dumbest thing you could ever do is leave the corporate killing machine's service.

Lunaville		2012-06-17 11:40:56 PM

Pancoaifo: DrWhy: HoratioGates: I understand that do to the nature of the military desertion has to be treated as a major crime, and therefore I don't think you can just let something like this slide, although perhaps a statute of limitations might be established. (I have nothing against draft dodgers on the other hand, they didn't sign up). Still, I think in times of relative peace, there should be a method for someone who has a change of conscience to leave the military. They should have to pay off any training they got, just like a student loan, and do some other sort of service for the country for the remainder of their tour. Unless he was deserting to avoid deployment to that horrible war in Grenada or Panama I think there should have been a better option.

What about conscientious objector status? It sounds like he could have appealed his enlistment on grounds of that? Yes, I know that's normally a consideration for draft boards to allow draftees who are serious pacifists to not be forced to choose between violating their conscience or going to jail, but I wonder if there isn't some administrative procedure for investigating claims of a change of conscience of people already in the military and then giving these people an honorable/or at least not dishonorable discharge if their pacifism is found to be legit?

Appealed a contract he willfully entered?

A buddy of mine took a humanitarian discharge because his mother died and he had an 8 year old sister. (dad was not in the picture). He accepted the offer to be discharged so he could be her guardian. He retained the benefits he had earned up to that point.

I knew a chaplain who once yelled at me for killing a spider rather than moving it outside and releasing it. That chaplain also spent the prior 20 years as a civilian paramedic. And I would gladly hurt anyone that insulted him. (well, try to)

There is plenty of room for conscience in the military. In many ways, far more so than any civilian employer I've ever ha ...

Okay, what you're saying makes sense, but what benefits has this individual drawn? He can't access veterans' benefits and it doesn't seem that he wants to. I see no reason to crucify him.

On a slightly unrelated note, I'm wondering if the peace church happened to be the Amish or Mennonites?

CasperImproved		2012-06-17 11:46:00 PM

xebeche_tzu: Yes, subby. The dumbest thing you could ever do is leave the corporate killing machine's service.

How about not leaving a promise unfulfilled? Do you purchase the mortgage on a house, find a better one a year later and expect the first bank to let you out of the contract?

Do you marry someone, impregnate her, then a year later when you feel stressed leave them both to fend for themselves?

That is the kind of person you are sounding like.

intelligent comment below		2012-06-17 11:47:29 PM

Lunaville		2012-06-17 11:49:56 PM

AtlanticCoast63: GizmoToy: AtlanticCoast63: A deserter is never, ever forgotten.

Ever.

Except when they are, like after Vietnam.

Except they weren't. Draft dodgers were extended an amnesty, deserters weren't. If they had been forgotten, there would'nt be an estimated 50K draft dodgers/deserters still in Canada and overseas. Every last one of the deserters has a file, and every last one of them is subject to arrest if they ever set foot here again. Are we actively looking for them? Nope. Will we treat them as they deserve if we run across one? Probably not. Any of the Vietnam era deserters would probably be detained for a few days(and not likely in a jail, but in visitors' quarters at a military post) until they were discharged. But they have not been forgotten. They have committed a Federal offense with no statute of limitations, and it doesn't just go away.

So, those individuals who had been taught all of their lives that the right thing to do, when drafted, was to report for duty; those individuals who tried their utmost to conduct themselves in a manner consistent with what they and their community believed was the right thing to do only to, sadly, learn the hard way that, when faced with the reality of war, they no longer believed participating was the morally correct action: these people are to be punished more harshly than those who simply refused to comply with the draft to begin with?

Why does that seem unjust to me?

CasperImproved		2012-06-17 11:59:26 PM

intelligent comment below: CasperImproved: xebeche_tzu: Yes, subby. The dumbest thing you could ever do is leave the corporate killing machine's service.

How about not leaving a promise unfulfilled? Do you purchase the mortgage on a house, find a better one a year later and expect the first bank to let you out of the contract?

Do you marry someone, impregnate her, then a year later when you feel stressed leave them both to fend for themselves?

That is the kind of person you are sounding like.

No, it sounds like he became religious and anti-war, and wanted out of the organization he joined because of it.

It's like becoming an exec at a bank then realizing the only thing you're doing to make a profit is screw over poor people.

I resent that analogy. Just because your company exec changes, doesn't mean you get to erase your current obligations.

So I guess the appropriate thing to do is look for a new job, and when your contract was over, move on to the next phase in your life.

Have an epiphany as often as you like. But honor your current obligations before acting on the new direction.

Lunaville		2012-06-17 11:59:29 PM

CasperImproved: xebeche_tzu: Yes, subby. The dumbest thing you could ever do is leave the corporate killing machine's service.

How about not leaving a promise unfulfilled? Do you purchase the mortgage on a house, find a better one a year later and expect the first bank to let you out of the contract?

Do you marry someone, impregnate her, then a year later when you feel stressed leave them both to fend for themselves?

That is the kind of person you are sounding like.

Assuming the church he joined is Christian, Christians aren't supposed to make promises or swear. They are to let their yea be yea and their nay be nay. In other words, yes, they are supposed to keep their word, but you are not to make a promise or swear because unforeseen circumstances could prevent you keeping that promise. In this situation, his conscience prevented him keeping his promise. His new relationship with G-d no longer permitted him to serve in the Air Force.

And I think I should stop there because I know at least one person I have newly put on my favorite list tonight finds religion offensive. Considering that, I'd rather not go on a one person revival here on FARK.

dave2198		2012-06-18 12:15:34 AM

unicron702: Dave2198 is essentially getting "If you don't like it...quit".

Not even close, moran. People have the right to change the direction of their own life. It's called freedom, and it's the thing our military is supposed to be defending. Have you forgotten this already?

The government does not own you because you volunteered to serve the country.

Read that sentence again, slowly, until it sinks in.

Oftentimes, recruiters flat-out lie to recruits. So no, people do not always know what they are getting into. The contract they have you sign is just a contract, not a blood oath.

Some of you people assign way too much importance to a J.O.B. A government job no less. The irony of that last part makes me giggle on the inside.

CasperImproved		2012-06-18 12:23:20 AM

Lunaville: CasperImproved: xebeche_tzu: Yes, subby. The dumbest thing you could ever do is leave the corporate killing machine's service.

How about not leaving a promise unfulfilled? Do you purchase the mortgage on a house, find a better one a year later and expect the first bank to let you out of the contract?

Do you marry someone, impregnate her, then a year later when you feel stressed leave them both to fend for themselves?

That is the kind of person you are sounding like.

Assuming the church he joined is Christian, Christians aren't supposed to make promises or swear. They are to let their yea be yea and their nay be nay. In other words, yes, they are supposed to keep their word, but you are not to make a promise or swear because unforeseen circumstances could prevent you keeping that promise. In this situation, his conscience prevented him keeping his promise. His new relationship with G-d no longer permitted him to serve in the Air Force.

And I think I should stop there because I know at least one person I have newly put on my favorite list tonight finds religion offensive. Considering that, I'd rather not go on a one person revival here on FARK.

Nothing wrong for being honest. I wish you well.

For the oath breaker? I have no respect.

BafflerMeal		2012-06-18 12:27:15 AM

CasperImproved: to run away and cry "I a disillusioned!" is an excuse for cowardice, and deserves no ones respect.

Disillusionment is a good thing.

CasperImproved		2012-06-18 12:32:44 AM

dave2198: unicron702: Dave2198 is essentially getting "If you don't like it...quit".

Not even close, moran. People have the right to change the direction of their own life. It's called freedom, and it's the thing our military is supposed to be defending. Have you forgotten this already?

The government does not own you because you volunteered to serve the country.

Read that sentence again, slowly, until it sinks in.

Oftentimes, recruiters flat-out lie to recruits. So no, people do not always know what they are getting into. The contract they have you sign is just a contract, not a blood oath.

Some of you people assign way too much importance to a J.O.B. A government job no less. The irony of that last part makes me giggle on the inside.

The military is not a J.O.B.

It is a commitment. Just like marriage or a mortgage since I seem to use those as examples here.

I will say that you seem from your words to be as flighty as the subject of this article, and would flee to some point out of jurisdiction if you had a change of heart.

Let me say I am glad you didn't put yourself in the place to make a commitment. I would respect you for that.

What you may not understand? I would respect you for choosing not to give service. I will NOT respect you for making the commitment and then moving to Sweden to avoid dealing with your decision.

obamadidcoke		2012-06-18 12:35:16 AM

CasperImproved: obamadidcoke: So what, a young man found pacifism and he made a commitment to it. I respect that.
Sometimes you have to do what you think is right and moral even if it costs you.

I served in the army in the first gulf war and there is no honor in war, its mean and dirty and I hope that my son never has to be a part of it.

The cold war is over let's all just go home.

Then your decision process lacks maturity.

Sure dude.
You make some a promise to a vague concept when you are 18-19 years old and you can't change?
Eighteen year olds make mistakes all of the time, who cares?

Make an oath you can't honor? You don't diserve respect. Sorta like deadbeat dads.

I hope your son also does not have to be "part of" the ugly thing war is. But if he swears an oath, he should honor it (and himself) by completing that obligation.

But if you make a promise (oath), you should honor it. Do what you will when your obligation is over, but to run away and cry "I a disillusioned!" is an excuse for cowardice, and deserves no ones respect.

I don't know he followed his beliefs even though he knew that he would never be able to go home. Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

CliChe Guevara		2012-06-18 12:45:36 AM

GizmoToy: AtlanticCoast63: A deserter is never, ever forgotten.

Ever.

Except when they are, like after Vietnam.

But to be fair, we (sort of) gave those guys a pass because the goal with them generally was simply avoiding getting shipped over someplace to kill peasants, and to be fair, something they didn't sign up for but rather were forced into.
Signing up and taking the oath voluntarily, then (likely) actively committing treason by selling out their country to an avowed enemy is a different kettle of fish entirely.

CasperImproved		2012-06-18 12:49:14 AM

obamadidcoke: CasperImproved: obamadidcoke: So what, a young man found pacifism and he made a commitment to it. I respect that.
Sometimes you have to do what you think is right and moral even if it costs you.

I served in the army in the first gulf war and there is no honor in war, its mean and dirty and I hope that my son never has to be a part of it.

The cold war is over let's all just go home.

Then your decision process lacks maturity.

Sure dude.
You make some a promise to a vague concept when you are 18-19 years old and you can't change?
Eighteen year olds make mistakes all of the time, who cares?

Make an oath you can't honor? You don't diserve respect. Sorta like deadbeat dads.

I hope your son also does not have to be "part of" the ugly thing war is. But if he swears an oath, he should honor it (and himself) by completing that obligation.

But if you make a promise (oath), you should honor it. Do what you will when your obligation is over, but to run away and cry "I a disillusioned!" is an excuse for cowardice, and deserves no ones respect.

I don't know he followed his beliefs even though he knew that he would never be able to go home. Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I really don't care if he followed his "beliefs". He made an oath, and did not follow through. He ran away like a coward. A coward is... a coward does. And crawling back asking for a basement position does not garner anyone's respect (family not included).

studebaker hoch		2012-06-18 01:02:55 AM

Who the hell deserts the Air Force?

People compete for those jobs.

dave2198		2012-06-18 01:43:09 AM

CasperImproved: dave2198: unicron702: Dave2198 is essentially getting "If you don't like it...quit".

Not even close, moran. People have the right to change the direction of their own life. It's called freedom, and it's the thing our military is supposed to be defending. Have you forgotten this already?

The government does not own you because you volunteered to serve the country.

Read that sentence again, slowly, until it sinks in.

Oftentimes, recruiters flat-out lie to recruits. So no, people do not always know what they are getting into. The contract they have you sign is just a contract, not a blood oath.

Some of you people assign way too much importance to a J.O.B. A government job no less. The irony of that last part makes me giggle on the inside.

The military is not a J.O.B.

It is a commitment. Just like marriage or a mortgage since I seem to use those as examples here.

I will say that you seem from your words to be as flighty as the subject of this article, and would flee to some point out of jurisdiction if you had a change of heart.

Let me say I am glad you didn't put yourself in the place to make a commitment. I would respect you for that.

What you may not understand? I would respect you for choosing not to give service. I will NOT respect you for making the commitment and then moving to Sweden to avoid dealing with your decision.

And yet, we allow people to get out of marriages and mortgage commitments in this country all the time. We don't have debtor's prisons. We don't hang people for divorcing.

I support this man's right to make decisions I would never make. It doesn't say anything about me other than the fact that I don't believe in projecting my sense of right and wrong onto other people. We live in a free country, and one of the difficult things about living in a free state is that we sometimes have to put up with people who make life choices we would never make.

The government does not own its employees. And yes, it is a job. Service members are paid a salary in exchange for a particular service. The government is the only entity in this country that is allowed to treat its employees this way.

krackpipe		2012-06-18 03:33:53 AM

The WindowLicker: krackpipe: True. 6913th Electronic Security Squadron. The trend these days (post 9/11) is to spare no expense even on those who merely embarrass us, eg Assange. That policy arguably backfires by making us look hypocritical or overzealous. But Hemler apparently had real EEFI, and thereby the capability to have caused damage, even inadvertently. We'll see.

Also, SIGINT was a huge deal during the cold war. The various units that flew the collection planes lost a fair number of men when the planes were shot down. While things had somewhat cooled down by the 80's, there were people being killed to obtain the information he was supposed to protect.

I have no idea what his deal is, but I can see why the Air Force has not forgotten. I just was at the memorial ceremony for the "Turbulent Turtle" a short time back. The "Turtle" was a SIGINT plane shot down in 1950, the government does not forget.

No doubt. Your service is appreciated, by the way. Here's to having made it through safely.

profplump		2012-06-18 04:15:51 AM

DarkVader: Little thing called the 13th amendment, bans slavery. Even slavery you sell yourself into.

Yeah, but we created a whole separate legal system to apply to such slaves, so it's all but impossible to prosecute such a case.

And if you can't threaten to ruin people's lives for leaving or disobeying it can be difficult to motivate them to risk their lives, at least absent a genuine threat or really good pay. Which is bad if you intend to use the military for political purposes (as those with political power have done for centuries).

orbister		2012-06-18 04:44:05 AM

CasperImproved:
Make an oath you can't honor? You don't diserve respect. Sorta like deadbeat dads.

I hope your son also does not have to be "part of" the ugly thing war is. But if he swears an oath, he should honor it (and himself) by completing that obligation.

But if you make a promise (oath), you should honor it. Do what you will when your obligation is over, but to run away and cry "I a disillusioned!" is an excuse for cowardice, and deserves no ones respect.

Applies to every divorced person in the world.

CasperImproved		2012-06-18 06:55:12 AM

dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: unicron702: Dave2198 is essentially getting "If you don't like it...quit".

Not even close, moran. People have the right to change the direction of their own life. It's called freedom, and it's the thing our military is supposed to be defending. Have you forgotten this already?

The government does not own you because you volunteered to serve the country.

Read that sentence again, slowly, until it sinks in.

Oftentimes, recruiters flat-out lie to recruits. So no, people do not always know what they are getting into. The contract they have you sign is just a contract, not a blood oath.

Some of you people assign way too much importance to a J.O.B. A government job no less. The irony of that last part makes me giggle on the inside.

The military is not a J.O.B.

It is a commitment. Just like marriage or a mortgage since I seem to use those as examples here.

I will say that you seem from your words to be as flighty as the subject of this article, and would flee to some point out of jurisdiction if you had a change of heart.

Let me say I am glad you didn't put yourself in the place to make a commitment. I would respect you for that.

What you may not understand? I would respect you for choosing not to give service. I will NOT respect you for making the commitment and then moving to Sweden to avoid dealing with your decision.

And yet, we allow people to get out of marriages and mortgage commitments in this country all the time. We don't have debtor's prisons. We don't hang people for divorcing.

I support this man's right to make decisions I would never make. It doesn't say anything about me other than the fact that I don't believe in projecting my sense of right and wrong onto other people. We live in a free country, and one of the difficult things about living in a free state is that we sometimes have to put up with people who make life choices we would never make.

The government does not own its employees. And yes, it is a job ...

What we legally allow (and dislike while doing) is not the same as what we morally condemn and consider treasonous.

You can support all you want. You being lenient with a coward that does not deal with his obligations does not change the facts. He made an oath to his country. Instead of being honorable, he ran like a coward to Europe to escape his punishment.

And no.. being in the military is not just a job.

/How do I know you have never given service... Your words. It precludes your honor. Do you have any?
//Glad you were not one my rights depended on
///I'm okay that you don't serve. But don't show up to the party if you don't have the stones

You personally can support this decision of a coward all you like. But it does not change the stripes of his offense. In time of war, he would diserve a bullet. In peace time, he deserves to at least spend an equivalent time in prison.

CasperImproved		2012-06-18 07:07:30 AM

orbister: CasperImproved:
Make an oath you can't honor? You don't diserve respect. Sorta like deadbeat dads.

I hope your son also does not have to be "part of" the ugly thing war is. But if he swears an oath, he should honor it (and himself) by completing that obligation.

But if you make a promise (oath), you should honor it. Do what you will when your obligation is over, but to run away and cry "I a disillusioned!" is an excuse for cowardice, and deserves no ones respect.

Applies to every divorced person in the world.

But you being a bad spouse does not equate. My ex would not be the reason I am enslaved, or made to live as someone else dictates because of her choice to cut & run.

/I am a little sad you do not see the difference

Fail in Human Form		2012-06-18 08:10:28 AM

obamadidcoke: CasperImproved: obamadidcoke: So what, a young man found pacifism and he made a commitment to it. I respect that.
Sometimes you have to do what you think is right and moral even if it costs you.

I served in the army in the first gulf war and there is no honor in war, its mean and dirty and I hope that my son never has to be a part of it.

The cold war is over let's all just go home.

Then your decision process lacks maturity.

Sure dude.
You make some a promise to a vague concept when you are 18-19 years old and you can't change?
Eighteen year olds make mistakes all of the time, who cares?

Make an oath you can't honor? You don't diserve respect. Sorta like deadbeat dads.

I hope your son also does not have to be "part of" the ugly thing war is. But if he swears an oath, he should honor it (and himself) by completing that obligation.

But if you make a promise (oath), you should honor it. Do what you will when your obligation is over, but to run away and cry "I a disillusioned!" is an excuse for cowardice, and deserves no ones respect.

I don't know he followed his beliefs even though he knew that he would never be able to go home. Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

way south		2012-06-18 08:52:34 AM

Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

milowitz		2012-06-18 09:04:42 AM

There are plenty of legal options to leave the military, this guy was just a pussy who didn't realize the ramifications of his deserting and wasn't smart enough to get out properly. He just ran. The details of his comm/intel job are unknown so don't speculate.

Don't ever come back to the US.

Fail in Human Form		2012-06-18 09:19:52 AM

way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

HopScotchNSoda		2012-06-18 10:14:02 AM

MusicMakeMyHeadPound: I think he was an especially stupid twenty-something-year-old and he deserves the AWOL branding, but I would agree with him that living 28 years in lies is punishment enough.

Even the disloyal fark himself doesn't think so:
"Sweden is a fantastic country for people like myself. Many people think it's been horrible for me to carry this secret for such a long time, but I have mostly missed my parents," he told Dagens Nyhter newspaper, according to the Local.

TWX		2012-06-18 10:16:35 AM

casual disregard:
Also this is the busiest pic I've seen all day:
[blogs.reuters.com image 640x434]

Hmmm... Now we know what happens when one locks a padlock on somoene's gauge ear piercing...

WTF was actually going on?

dave2198		2012-06-18 10:29:11 AM

CasperImproved: dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: unicron702: Dave2198 is essentially getting "If you don't like it...quit".

Not even close, moran. People have the right to change the direction of their own life. It's called freedom, and it's the thing our military is supposed to be defending. Have you forgotten this already?

The government does not own you because you volunteered to serve the country.

Read that sentence again, slowly, until it sinks in.

Oftentimes, recruiters flat-out lie to recruits. So no, people do not always know what they are getting into. The contract they have you sign is just a contract, not a blood oath.

Some of you people assign way too much importance to a J.O.B. A government job no less. The irony of that last part makes me giggle on the inside.

The military is not a J.O.B.

It is a commitment. Just like marriage or a mortgage since I seem to use those as examples here.

I will say that you seem from your words to be as flighty as the subject of this article, and would flee to some point out of jurisdiction if you had a change of heart.

Let me say I am glad you didn't put yourself in the place to make a commitment. I would respect you for that.

What you may not understand? I would respect you for choosing not to give service. I will NOT respect you for making the commitment and then moving to Sweden to avoid dealing with your decision.

And yet, we allow people to get out of marriages and mortgage commitments in this country all the time. We don't have debtor's prisons. We don't hang people for divorcing.

I support this man's right to make decisions I would never make. It doesn't say anything about me other than the fact that I don't believe in projecting my sense of right and wrong onto other people. We live in a free country, and one of the difficult things about living in a free state is that we sometimes have to put up with people who make life choices we would never make.

The government does not own its employees. And yes, i ...

Questioning my honor because I disagree with you. Classy.

I do not abandon my commitments. I have been married for 5 years, have 2 young sons and am in it for the long haul.

That doesn't mean my life choices are for everybody.

Walking off his job and abandoning his obligations makes him a piece of shiat. It should not make him a criminal. People are allowed to change the course of their own lives in this country. That's one of the things that makes it so great. Also, I didn't say there should be no punishment for leaving. But this punishment should be financially-based, not jail-based. Make him pay back the cost of his training, or at least the cost of his room & board.

way south		2012-06-18 10:30:24 AM

Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

dave2198		2012-06-18 10:32:14 AM

Fail in Human Form: obamadidcoke: CasperImproved: obamadidcoke: So what, a young man found pacifism and he made a commitment to it. I respect that.
Sometimes you have to do what you think is right and moral even if it costs you.

I served in the army in the first gulf war and there is no honor in war, its mean and dirty and I hope that my son never has to be a part of it.

The cold war is over let's all just go home.

Then your decision process lacks maturity.

Sure dude.
You make some a promise to a vague concept when you are 18-19 years old and you can't change?
Eighteen year olds make mistakes all of the time, who cares?

Make an oath you can't honor? You don't diserve respect. Sorta like deadbeat dads.

I hope your son also does not have to be "part of" the ugly thing war is. But if he swears an oath, he should honor it (and himself) by completing that obligation.

But if you make a promise (oath), you should honor it. Do what you will when your obligation is over, but to run away and cry "I a disillusioned!" is an excuse for cowardice, and deserves no ones respect.

I don't know he followed his beliefs even though he knew that he would never be able to go home. Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

If we threw people in jail simply because you don't respect their decisions, most of this country would be in the slammer.

dave2198		2012-06-18 10:34:28 AM

way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

dave2198		2012-06-18 10:36:37 AM

milowitz: There are plenty of legal options to leave the military, this guy was just a pussy who didn't realize the ramifications of his deserting and wasn't smart enough to get out properly. He just ran. The details of his comm/intel job are unknown so don't speculate.

Don't ever come back to the US.

He should have just pretended he was gay.

way south		2012-06-18 10:50:04 AM

dave2198: way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

The crime is desertion, and the punishment would be fitting if he risked a chance of serving it. He outsmarted the system and got away with it.
Good for him.

If he wants to make right with his peers and his government, there's a trial room waiting for him.
You don't ern respect for walking off on the job.

ShonenBat		2012-06-18 10:55:36 AM

This guy deserves the DUMBASS tag. You wanna leave the military? Just get fat, don't pass your PFT, and get chaptered out. Its that simple.

Dishonorable discharges are easier than you think.

chiett		2012-06-18 10:55:49 AM

Kansas is calling.

HopScotchNSoda		2012-06-18 11:11:54 AM

ShonenBat: This guy deserves the DUMBASS tag. You wanna leave the military? Just get fat, don't pass your PFT, and get chaptered out. Its that simple.

Dishonorable discharges are easier than you think.

Those wouldn't even be dishonourable discharges. They would be, at worst, general OTH (more likely general UHC, quite possibly honourable). A bad conduct discharge and the even more severe dishonourable discharge can only be ordered as part of a sentence on conviction of qualifying offences by a court martial - and no, not all of the UCMJ's punitive articles permit BCDs, much less DDs. The worst you can get administratively is a general discharge under other than honourable conditions (general OTH). You lose a few of the VA benefits and still fewer state benefits; it's mostly just symbolic.

You are otherwise correct, though. If he wanted to get out, he could have done so. There's some paperwork, some waiting, some being stuck on crappy duties during the process, but within a few months, he would have been out, and he wouldn't have been in any position to be forced to hurt his fellow man (as he claims was his motive) during that process.

Instead, he ditched his post in a sensitive unit (his actual MOS is unknown, but even the cooks and personnel clerks in a SIGINT unit would have required at least a secret clearance if not a TS-SBI) on the near-frontier from our avowed adversary if not enemy.

CasperImproved		2012-06-18 11:21:35 AM

dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: unicron702: Dave2198 is essentially getting "If you don't like it...quit".

Not even close, moran. People have the right to change the direction of their own life. It's called freedom, and it's the thing our military is supposed to be defending. Have you forgotten this already?

The government does not own you because you volunteered to serve the country.

Read that sentence again, slowly, until it sinks in.

Oftentimes, recruiters flat-out lie to recruits. So no, people do not always know what they are getting into. The contract they have you sign is just a contract, not a blood oath.

Some of you people assign way too much importance to a J.O.B. A government job no less. The irony of that last part makes me giggle on the inside.

The military is not a J.O.B.

It is a commitment. Just like marriage or a mortgage since I seem to use those as examples here.

I will say that you seem from your words to be as flighty as the subject of this article, and would flee to some point out of jurisdiction if you had a change of heart.

Let me say I am glad you didn't put yourself in the place to make a commitment. I would respect you for that.

What you may not understand? I would respect you for choosing not to give service. I will NOT respect you for making the commitment and then moving to Sweden to avoid dealing with your decision.

And yet, we allow people to get out of marriages and mortgage commitments in this country all the time. We don't have debtor's prisons. We don't hang people for divorcing.

I support this man's right to make decisions I would never make. It doesn't say anything about me other than the fact that I don't believe in projecting my sense of right and wrong onto other people. We live in a free country, and one of the difficult things about living in a free state is that we sometimes have to put up with people who make life choices we would never make.

The government does not own its employ ...

What would make you understand that he promised to defend your right to your opinion, and then ran away? And that his running away diminished you.?

The consequence to every (any) one running away from defending your rights is that you have none and the first butt-head country to realize that we all have no honor or respect is to make you their biatch.

Think what you want. But the lapse in defending what is yours will result in you being theirs.

dave2198		2012-06-18 11:25:02 AM

way south: dave2198: way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

The crime is desertion, and the punishment would be fitting if he risked a chance of serving it. He outsmarted the system and got away with it.
Good for him.

If he wants to make right with his peers and his government, there's a trial room waiting for him.
You don't ern respect for walking off on the job.

You also shouldn't have to go to jail for it... since it's a job.

dave2198		2012-06-18 11:31:14 AM

CasperImproved: dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: unicron702: Dave2198 is essentially getting "If you don't like it...quit".

Not even close, moran. People have the right to change the direction of their own life. It's called freedom, and it's the thing our military is supposed to be defending. Have you forgotten this already?

The government does not own you because you volunteered to serve the country.

Read that sentence again, slowly, until it sinks in.

Oftentimes, recruiters flat-out lie to recruits. So no, people do not always know what they are getting into. The contract they have you sign is just a contract, not a blood oath.

Some of you people assign way too much importance to a J.O.B. A government job no less. The irony of that last part makes me giggle on the inside.

The military is not a J.O.B.

It is a commitment. Just like marriage or a mortgage since I seem to use those as examples here.

I will say that you seem from your words to be as flighty as the subject of this article, and would flee to some point out of jurisdiction if you had a change of heart.

Let me say I am glad you didn't put yourself in the place to make a commitment. I would respect you for that.

What you may not understand? I would respect you for choosing not to give service. I will NOT respect you for making the commitment and then moving to Sweden to avoid dealing with your decision.

And yet, we allow people to get out of marriages and mortgage commitments in this country all the time. We don't have debtor's prisons. We don't hang people for divorcing.

I support this man's right to make decisions I would never make. It doesn't say anything about me other than the fact that I don't believe in projecting my sense of right and wrong onto other people. We live in a free country, and one of the difficult things about living in a free state is that we sometimes have to put up with people who make life choices we would never make.

The government does not own its employ ...

I didn't know military types could be so melodramatic. Jesus. One guy left his job. This does not "embolden the enemy". The problem is you place more value on these things than you should. There are more important callings in life than serving in the military.

way south		2012-06-18 11:47:19 AM

dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

The crime is desertion, and the punishment would be fitting if he risked a chance of serving it. He outsmarted the system and got away with it.
Good for him.

If he wants to make right with his peers and his government, there's a trial room waiting for him.
You don't ern respect for walking off on the job.

You also shouldn't have to go to jail for it... since it's a job.

I can think of a few jobs you might go to jail for deserting.
...or at the least get sued and blackballed over.

/Air traffic controller, surgeon, police officer, train engineer, refinery operations, etc...
/Lives depend on military officers doing their job, where's the difference?
/They go to military courts? Doubled farked then, arnt ya.

dave2198		2012-06-18 12:08:13 PM

way south: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

The crime is desertion, and the punishment would be fitting if he risked a chance of serving it. He outsmarted the system and got away with it.
Good for him.

If he wants to make right with his peers and his government, there's a trial room waiting for him.
You don't ern respect for walking off on the job.

You also shouldn't have to go to jail for it... since it's a job.

I can think of a few jobs you might go to jail for deserting.
...or at the least get sued and blackballed over.

/Air traffic controller, surgeon, police officer, train engineer, refinery operations, etc...
/Lives depend on military officers doing their job, where's the difference?
/They go to military courts? Doubled fa ...

The difference is that you don't go to prison for walking away from those jobs. Because they're just JOBS in the end. If you want to own your employees, rather than just hire them, you need to a) make slavery legal and b) pay them a lot more.

dittybopper		2012-06-18 12:10:19 PM

Clunge: Lots of Internet Tough Guys here who never served in the military blasting this guy. Rather amusing to see someone who is too pussy to sign up talking smack about this guy.

I served in the military at approximately the same time frame, just a bit after (mid to late 1980's) in a tougher branch (Army), doing the same sort of job (Signals Intelligence).

The guy is a pussy. Worse, by virtue of what he likely did, he had access to some of the most sensitive secrets the Air Force, and the United States in general, had.

To reiterate: He's a pussy, and worse he's one that could have caused serious damage to US interests, and I say that as someone who has been there, done that, and who has the commemorative beer mug to prove it.

CasperImproved		2012-06-18 12:20:49 PM

dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

The crime is desertion, and the punishment would be fitting if he risked a chance of serving it. He outsmarted the system and got away with it.
Good for him.

If he wants to make right with his peers and his government, there's a trial room waiting for him.
You don't ern respect for walking off on the job.

You also shouldn't have to go to jail for it... since it's a job.

I can think of a few jobs you might go to jail for deserting.
...or at the least get sued and blackballed over.

/Air traffic controller, surgeon, police officer, train engineer, refinery operations, etc...
/Lives depend on military officers doing their job, where's the difference?
/They go to military courts? ...

The really sad thing is? You are stupid enough to think it is just a JOB.

Punishment? Crime?

How about you examine your purpose in life. I would guess it does not include any words like bravery, courage, honesty, or even appreciated.

What do you provide to the community that they would not be better off doing without?

I am guessing you have no words......

Fail in Human Form		2012-06-18 12:44:31 PM

dittybopper: Clunge: Lots of Internet Tough Guys here who never served in the military blasting this guy. Rather amusing to see someone who is too pussy to sign up talking smack about this guy.

I served in the military at approximately the same time frame, just a bit after (mid to late 1980's) in a tougher branch (Army), doing the same sort of job (Signals Intelligence).

The guy is a pussy. Worse, by virtue of what he likely did, he had access to some of the most sensitive secrets the Air Force, and the United States in general, had.

To reiterate: He's a pussy, and worse he's one that could have caused serious damage to US interests, and I say that as someone who has been there, done that, and who has the commemorative beer mug to prove it.

Calling someone a pussy is a quick way to make yourself sound like you're a childish knuckle dragging "USA, USA, USA" fool. There are fair criticisms for what this guy did but sounding like an adolescent doesn't help the conversation.

redmid17		2012-06-18 12:56:25 PM

way south		2012-06-18 12:56:25 PM

dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

The crime is desertion, and the punishment would be fitting if he risked a chance of serving it. He outsmarted the system and got away with it.
Good for him.

If he wants to make right with his peers and his government, there's a trial room waiting for him.
You don't ern respect for walking off on the job.

You also shouldn't have to go to jail for it... since it's a job.

I can think of a few jobs you might go to jail for deserting.
...or at the least get sued and blackballed over.

/Air traffic controller, surgeon, police officer, train engineer, refinery operations, etc...
/Lives depend on military officers doing their job, where's the difference?
/They go to military courts? ...

The military isn't slavery, but it's not far from it.
Is anyone under any illusion that joining an armed force comes with special privileges, special honors, and special penalties?

When I finally read the article, I realized this is more than just draft dodging. He signed up and took our money and training. He had responsibilities. He skipped town so fast that his family assumed he was dead. His bosses thought he was either disappeared by the KGB or switched sides.
That's one hell of a conscientious objection...
The military is a lethal profession with some serious people. They are going to want answers.

He's damn lucky if everyone decides this is water under the bridge.

dave2198		2012-06-18 01:12:00 PM

CasperImproved: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

The crime is desertion, and the punishment would be fitting if he risked a chance of serving it. He outsmarted the system and got away with it.
Good for him.

If he wants to make right with his peers and his government, there's a trial room waiting for him.
You don't ern respect for walking off on the job.

You also shouldn't have to go to jail for it... since it's a job.

I can think of a few jobs you might go to jail for deserting.
...or at the least get sued and blackballed over.

/Air traffic controller, surgeon, police officer, train engineer, refinery operations, etc...
/Lives depend on military officers doing their job, where's the difference?
/They go to milita ...

How about you examine your purpose in life. I would guess it does not include any words like bravery, courage, honesty, or even appreciated.

You know nothing about me, but good job on sounding like the stereotypical self-righteous military a-hole. The people in my life would strongly disagree with all of what you just said.

What do you provide to the community that they would not be better off doing without?

Well, right now I am wrapping up a 10-year career spent building a cultural resource for a major US city that will be around for decades to come, enriching the lives of the people in the area and spurring cultural and economic development. My next career will be spent on research focused on helping worthwhile ideas take hold for the betterment of society. Oops, I bet you thought I worked at 7/11 or something.

What have you done to enrich the lives of those around you, other than lord your military service over them in an attempt to make them feel unworthy of your presence?

CasperImproved		2012-06-18 01:38:48 PM

dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

The crime is desertion, and the punishment would be fitting if he risked a chance of serving it. He outsmarted the system and got away with it.
Good for him.

If he wants to make right with his peers and his government, there's a trial room waiting for him.
You don't ern respect for walking off on the job.

You also shouldn't have to go to jail for it... since it's a job.

I can think of a few jobs you might go to jail for deserting.
...or at the least get sued and blackballed over.

/Air traffic controller, surgeon, police officer, train engineer, refinery operations, etc...
/Lives depend on military officers doing their job, where's the difference?
/T ...

Yes...stereotypical. That is what I am about. That includes the ten years I gave to national service... yes... that makes me a wanker.

How about hearing about your illustrious history? I assume it includes something other then just having large lips... right?

Or are you just a wanker with an opinion?

dave2198		2012-06-18 01:59:03 PM

CasperImproved: dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

The crime is desertion, and the punishment would be fitting if he risked a chance of serving it. He outsmarted the system and got away with it.
Good for him.

If he wants to make right with his peers and his government, there's a trial room waiting for him.
You don't ern respect for walking off on the job.

You also shouldn't have to go to jail for it... since it's a job.

I can think of a few jobs you might go to jail for deserting.
...or at the least get sued and blackballed over.

/Air traffic controller, surgeon, police officer, train engineer, refinery operations, etc...
/Lives depend on military officers doing their job, where's the diff ...

People who have given years of service can still be wankers. Like yourself, for instance. You are no better than me simply because you chose a different career path. I support our troops, but I have problems with anyone who acts holier than thou. You're not as special as you think you are. In fact, your own employer considered you to be downright replaceable. Because that's how the military sees its employees: As interchangeable parts. Well, good for you, you served 10 years as a cog in the machine of national security. I can respect that. It's a selfless choice. But don't turn around and use your selfless act to make yourself sound better than me or anyone else.

CasperImproved		2012-06-18 02:11:18 PM

dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

The crime is desertion, and the punishment would be fitting if he risked a chance of serving it. He outsmarted the system and got away with it.
Good for him.

If he wants to make right with his peers and his government, there's a trial room waiting for him.
You don't ern respect for walking off on the job.

You also shouldn't have to go to jail for it... since it's a job.

I can think of a few jobs you might go to jail for deserting.
...or at the least get sued and blackballed over.

/Air traffic controller, surgeon, police officer, train engineer, refinery operations, etc...
/Lives depend on military officers doing their job, ...

I consider you a troll and do you want to know why?

I gave service to my country not knowing if in that time frame war would occur. But I would have done what was necessary because i love my country.

You are a ponce that did not make that choice. Or couldn't based on your lack of courage.

I only call you out because your gutlessness poked in my direction.

You are pond scum... and if you wish others to think more of you.... you will actually show some back-bone.

I have not seen things to respect from you... but I am still open to the concept. Just not expecting.

milowitz		2012-06-18 02:21:09 PM

dave2198: Well, right now I am wrapping up a 10-year career spent building a cultural resource for a major US city that will be around for decades to come, enriching the lives of the people in the area and spurring cultural and economic development. My next career will be spent on research focused on helping worthwhile ideas take hold for the betterment of society

Keep workin' that resume!

/keep farking that chicken

CasperImproved		2012-06-18 02:21:45 PM

dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

The crime is desertion, and the punishment would be fitting if he risked a chance of serving it. He outsmarted the system and got away with it.
Good for him.

If he wants to make right with his peers and his government, there's a trial room waiting for him.
You don't ern respect for walking off on the job.

You also shouldn't have to go to jail for it... since it's a job.

I can think of a few jobs you might go to jail for deserting.
...or at the least get sued and blackballed over.

/Air traffic controller, surgeon, police officer, train engineer, refinery operations, etc...
/Lives depend on military officers doing their job, ...

Myself for instance.....

I almost wish to provide you the excuse to be a nice person.

But honestly? I know you are not capable.

dittybopper		2012-06-18 02:40:16 PM

Fail in Human Form: dittybopper: Clunge: Lots of Internet Tough Guys here who never served in the military blasting this guy. Rather amusing to see someone who is too pussy to sign up talking smack about this guy.

I served in the military at approximately the same time frame, just a bit after (mid to late 1980's) in a tougher branch (Army), doing the same sort of job (Signals Intelligence).

The guy is a pussy. Worse, by virtue of what he likely did, he had access to some of the most sensitive secrets the Air Force, and the United States in general, had.

To reiterate: He's a pussy, and worse he's one that could have caused serious damage to US interests, and I say that as someone who has been there, done that, and who has the commemorative beer mug to prove it.

Calling someone a pussy is a quick way to make yourself sound like you're a childish knuckle dragging "USA, USA, USA" fool. There are fair criticisms for what this guy did but sounding like an adolescent doesn't help the conversation.

Nope, he's still a pussy, regardless of whether I engage in childish knuckle dragging or not.

I'm pretty much Captain Milquetoast. I'm so mild-mannered I make Clark Kent look like Ghengis Khan. About the *ONLY* time I won't back down from a confrontation is when my kid is involved. Having said all that, I'm still saying "This guy is a pussy".

I understand that there are fair criticisms, and that for many there are nuances that might distract them from the central issue. I could tart it up, and discuss the politics of the time, and military service, and 1980's signals intelligence (in vague, generalized terms), and even a little bit about the role of the Air Force in the collection of SIGINT as I worked in a facility that housed all 4 service branches. I could go on about how Ronald Reagan was propagandized as a warmonger when in fact he was no such thing, and the record shows that. I could even rhapsodize at length about the relative living conditions of the Army, Air Force, and Navy at the time, having been in the Army and having spent unauthorized TDY in both Air Force and Navy female barracks, if you know what I'm sayin' (don't know about the Marine Corps, though).

I could go on about a myriad of topics both directly and tangentially related, but "This guy is a pussy" expresses all of that succinctly, and really any extended discussion of the topic would merely obfuscate his pussy-ness.

dittybopper		2012-06-18 02:43:20 PM

way south: When I finally read the article, I realized this is more than just draft dodging. He signed up and took our money and training. He had responsibilities. He skipped town so fast that his family assumed he was dead. His bosses thought he was either disappeared by the KGB or switched sides.

Yep. I don't know what his specific MOS was, but unless he was the company clerk, he had access to information classified Top Secret.

Fail in Human Form		2012-06-18 02:56:16 PM

dittybopper: Fail in Human Form: dittybopper: Clunge: Lots of Internet Tough Guys here who never served in the military blasting this guy. Rather amusing to see someone who is too pussy to sign up talking smack about this guy.

I served in the military at approximately the same time frame, just a bit after (mid to late 1980's) in a tougher branch (Army), doing the same sort of job (Signals Intelligence).

The guy is a pussy. Worse, by virtue of what he likely did, he had access to some of the most sensitive secrets the Air Force, and the United States in general, had.

To reiterate: He's a pussy, and worse he's one that could have caused serious damage to US interests, and I say that as someone who has been there, done that, and who has the commemorative beer mug to prove it.

Calling someone a pussy is a quick way to make yourself sound like you're a childish knuckle dragging "USA, USA, USA" fool. There are fair criticisms for what this guy did but sounding like an adolescent doesn't help the conversation.

Nope, he's still a pussy, regardless of whether I engage in childish knuckle dragging or not.

I'm pretty much Captain Milquetoast. I'm so mild-mannered I make Clark Kent look like Ghengis Khan. About the *ONLY* time I won't back down from a confrontation is when my kid is involved. Having said all that, I'm still saying "This guy is a pussy".

I understand that there are fair criticisms, and that for many there are nuances that might distract them from the central issue. I could tart it up, and discuss the politics of the time, and military service, and 1980's signals intelligence (in vague, generalized terms), and even a little bit about the role of the Air Force in the collection of SIGINT as I worked in a facility that housed all 4 service branches. I could go on about how Ronald Reagan was propagandized as a warmonger when in fact he was no such thing, and the record shows that. I could even rhapsodize at length about the relative living conditions of the Army, ...

I suppose my problem with it is that you don't know what his motivations for desertion were. Calling him a pussy implies he was afraid to fight. He could have decided that he no longer supported the military or dozens of other things. As far as him hiding in another country just look at half the responses in is thread to decide if, given the attitude of a large portion of the citizens in this country, a prudent person would have done the same after making the decision to leave.

dave2198		2012-06-18 03:03:28 PM

CasperImproved: dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

The crime is desertion, and the punishment would be fitting if he risked a chance of serving it. He outsmarted the system and got away with it.
Good for him.

If he wants to make right with his peers and his government, there's a trial room waiting for him.
You don't ern respect for walking off on the job.

You also shouldn't have to go to jail for it... since it's a job.

I can think of a few jobs you might go to jail for deserting.
...or at the least get sued and blackballed over.

/Air traffic controller, surgeon, police officer, train engineer, refinery operations, etc...
/Lives depend on military officers doing t ...

You act like the only redeeming value of a person is courage. You feel you can treat other people like shiat as long as you are brave. You think all of your failings can be excused because you've served.

Words like courage, bravery and honor don't mean anything unless you are a good person first.

I don't know how my honor came into question simply because I disagreed with you. Oh well.

I know, I know, welcometofark.jpg

redmid17		2012-06-18 03:05:21 PM

Fail in Human Form		2012-06-18 03:10:35 PM

redmid17: Fail in Human Form: I suppose my problem with it is that you don't know what his motivations for desertion were. Calling him a pussy implies he was afraid to fight. He could have decided that he no longer supported the military or dozens of other things. As far as him hiding in another country just look at half the responses in is thread to decide if, given the attitude of a large portion of the citizens in this country, a prudent person would have done the same after making the decision to leave.

FTA: Dagens Nyheter said David Hemler had deserted aged 21 while serving at a U.S. Air Force base in Germany, after getting involved with a pacifist church and becoming disillusioned with the policies of former President Ronald Reagan.

So I think we have a fairly accurate handle on why he deserted.

Fair enough, should RTFA but hey it's Fark, I don't see how that qualifies him as a "pussy" though.

/Seems to me like he was just paying attention because Reagan was a disaster for this country

redmid17		2012-06-18 03:20:51 PM

Fail in Human Form: redmid17: Fail in Human Form: I suppose my problem with it is that you don't know what his motivations for desertion were. Calling him a pussy implies he was afraid to fight. He could have decided that he no longer supported the military or dozens of other things. As far as him hiding in another country just look at half the responses in is thread to decide if, given the attitude of a large portion of the citizens in this country, a prudent person would have done the same after making the decision to leave.

FTA: Dagens Nyheter said David Hemler had deserted aged 21 while serving at a U.S. Air Force base in Germany, after getting involved with a pacifist church and becoming disillusioned with the policies of former President Ronald Reagan.

So I think we have a fairly accurate handle on why he deserted.

Fair enough, should RTFA but hey it's Fark, I don't see how that qualifies him as a "pussy" though.

/Seems to me like he was just paying attention because Reagan was a disaster for this country

The veterans in the thread seem to be condemning him mostly for taking the absolutely worst/easiest path for leaving the service. As other people noted upthread, he could pretty easily have gotten a regular discharge after a few months of shiatty posts.

dittybopper		2012-06-18 03:42:47 PM

Fail in Human Form: I suppose my problem with it is that you don't know what his motivations for desertion were. Calling him a pussy implies he was afraid to fight. He could have decided that he no longer supported the military or dozens of other things. As far as him hiding in another country just look at half the responses in is thread to decide if, given the attitude of a large portion of the citizens in this country, a prudent person would have done the same after making the decision to leave.

His motivation was stated in first sentence in the article:

Dagens Nyheter said David Hemler had deserted aged 21 while serving at a U.S. Air Force base in Germany, after getting involved with a pacifist church and becoming disillusioned with the policies of former President Ronald Reagan.
Sorry, he voluntarily signed up, and almost certainly went through a *VERY* extensive background check for a security clearance. He wasn't drafted, there wasn't a war, and in any case, he wasn't in a combat unit, but a support one. He wouldn't have been pulling a trigger, and unless WWIII happened, he wouldn't have been in any personal danger. He could have waited out the year he had left on his enlistment (he enlisted right after high school, and was 21 when he deserted, 3 years into what was likely a 4 year term of enlistment). Had he done that, this would be a non-story. He'd be just another disillusioned ex-military person. You don't have to support the military if you change your mind, but you *DO* have to finish up your contractual obligations to them.

Instead, he chose to act like a petulant child that was told he couldn't have ice cream for dinner. As we used to say, "Wah. My heart bleeds purple piss for you". He ran away instead of facing his problems like an adult. And, in the act of running away, he put some very sensitive national security information at risk, or at the very least cause the military to spend resources looking at what he did as a job and trying to figure out what information he could have leaked to the Warsaw Pact nations, and to mitigate that damage if possible and to also look for him.

I think a term of at least a couple years in military prison would be an adequate punishment.

HopScotchNSoda		2012-06-18 03:44:45 PM

redmid17: The veterans in the thread seem to be condemning him mostly for taking the absolutely worst/easiest path for leaving the service. As other people noted upthread, he could pretty easily have gotten a regular discharge after a few months of shiatty posts.

Yes, and for the agrivating factors of the damage and shiat he caused by doing it where he was and to what sort of unit he was assigned. If he was in a supply company in CONUS, he would still have earned a very low opinion on the part of most of us. But ditching a SIGINT unit near the Iron Curtain, he caused a shiat storm of extra work, cost, hardship, inter alia for his brothers in his unit. They had to spend an ass load of extra time re-keying crypto systems (for people unclear on the concept, that does not mean calling in a locksmith to change the pins in a physical lock), investigating, being investigated, being under suspicion. That meant longer days, a lot of crap (shiat rolls down-hill), reduced passes/leave until the dust settled, and more.

leadmetal		2012-06-18 07:01:03 PM

Oh heaven forbid someone quit their job.
Only when in military employment is this considered some sort of big deal.
But the military is more like slavery than employment.

In the world where we aren't allowed to use violence the worst this can be is a civil lawsuit for breach of contract.

way south		2012-06-18 07:11:27 PM

leadmetal: Oh heaven forbid someone quit their job.
Only when in military employment is this considered some sort of big deal.
But the military is more like slavery than employment.

In the world where we aren't allowed to use violence the worst this can be is a civil lawsuit for breach of contract.

When soldiers quit the front line, the Hun end up in your yard.
It's kind of a big deal.

intelligent comment below		2012-06-18 07:54:35 PM

milowitz: Don't ever come back to the US.

The poor guy is suffering now in Sweden, with higher standards of living, higher GDP, free education, health care, day care, etc. I'm sure your anger filled post is disappointing to him. All you military welfare losers are just pissed he's smarter than you and got out on his terms with his morals intact.

intelligent comment below		2012-06-18 07:56:52 PM

dave2198: I didn't know military types could be so melodramatic. Jesus. One guy left his job. This does not "embolden the enemy". The problem is you place more value on these things than you should. There are more important callings in life than serving in the military.

Blind allegiance to the flag and authority. It's why the ruling class loves shipping kids with little or no education off to serve. They come back a wannabe Captain America who blindly defends the ruling class to death.

Fail in Human Form		2012-06-18 07:58:37 PM

way south: leadmetal: Oh heaven forbid someone quit their job.
Only when in military employment is this considered some sort of big deal.
But the military is more like slavery than employment.

In the world where we aren't allowed to use violence the worst this can be is a civil lawsuit for breach of contract.

When soldiers quit the front line, the Hun end up in your yard.
It's kind of a big deal.

If the Huns are coming over the hill I doubt many would desert, being used as a pawn in a global business venture or misguided projection of force is an entirely different matter.

intelligent comment below		2012-06-18 08:00:29 PM

CasperImproved: But I would have done what was necessary because i love my country.

You mean you needed money for college and to buy that pickup truck you always wanted.

A patriotic American doesn't join a standing army in a time of peace, going against everything the Founders fought for.

If you really loved your country you would have done something worthwhile, like go into politics or law. To make a real difference in life. Not be some nameless grunt in the war machine for the rich that hasn't defended freedom since 1945.

intelligent comment below		2012-06-18 08:02:33 PM

redmid17: As other people noted upthread, he could pretty easily have gotten a regular discharge after a few months of shiatty posts.

Except his morals made him decide he needed to leave now, on his terms. And he did it. Unless you have proof he was a threat to America because of all the super secrets he knew, this is just a misinformation campaign to paint him as an enemy and anyone who dares question your superior freedom fighting cat protecting military.

One Bad Apple		2012-06-18 08:43:09 PM

dittybopper:

I'm pretty much Captain Milquetoast. I'm so mild-mannered I make Clark Kent look like Ghengis Khan. About the *ONLY* time I won't back down from a confrontation is when my kid is involved. Having said all that, I'm still saying "This guy is a pussy".

Real tough guy when it comes to pushing a kid around, huh ?

You monster

Lunaville		2012-06-18 08:53:10 PM

intelligent comment below: CasperImproved: But I would have done what was necessary because i love my country.

You mean you needed money for college and to buy that pickup truck you always wanted.

A patriotic American doesn't join a standing army in a time of peace, going against everything the Founders fought for.

If you really loved your country you would have done something worthwhile, like go into politics or law. To make a real difference in life. Not be some nameless grunt in the war machine for the rich that hasn't defended freedom since 1945.

intelligent comment below: CasperImproved: But I would have done what was necessary because i love my country.

You mean you needed money for college and to buy that pickup truck you always wanted.

A patriotic American doesn't join a standing army in a time of peace, going against everything the Founders fought for.

If you really loved your country you would have done something worthwhile, like go into politics or law. To make a real difference in life. Not be some nameless grunt in the war machine for the rich that hasn't defended freedom since 1945.

For the most part, I agree with you and disagree with CaserImproved. Yet, it is you I am tempted to put on ignore. It's all well and good that Daddy tossed you car keys on your 16th birthday and paid your way through college. Not everyone has that.

As far as love of country goes, I don't know every person who has ever served in the military, but the ones I have met were very sincere in their love of country and their desire to serve their country - yes, while earning money for college, acquiring that vehicle, or otherwise improving their lives. We don't expect Peace Corp volunteers to serve for free why in the world would expect military personnel to forego any personal benefit of service?

Not only have the people I've known to have served in the military been sincere in their love of country, the overwhelming majority of them were sincere in their desire to protect and serve their fellow citizens. So, yes, some of them hail from modest backgrounds where, perhaps, their best choices were either break into your house and rob you or join the military. That doesn't make them any less sincere in their desire to protect your right to come on this thread and call them losers and generally be insulting. You would be surprised how many of the people on this thread, whom you are insulting, would die to protect your life and your rights.

So, toss a little compassion on your plate, please.

intelligent comment below		2012-06-18 09:10:51 PM

Lunaville: It's all well and good that Daddy tossed you car keys on your 16th birthday and paid your way through college. Not everyone has that.

Please take your strawman elsewhere. Go to community college if you can't afford or want to take out big loans for a larger school.

If you were an academic failure then you need to go to a community college to get a well rounded education BEFORE you join any organization especially one that hands you ultimate power and responsibility.

Lunaville: As far as love of country goes, I don't know every person who has ever served in the military, but the ones I have met were very sincere in their love of country and their desire to serve their country - yes, while earning money for college, acquiring that vehicle, or otherwise improving their lives. We don't expect Peace Corp volunteers to serve for free why in the world would expect military personnel to forego any personal benefit of service?

At that age you don't even know what loving a woman means not to mention love of country. You are uneducated and unaware of the world around you. You go into a conservative organization with ignorant viewpoints that only get reinforced even more all without a real education as background to counter the ignorance in the military. Chances are you've never even left your state let alone the country to visit other cultures.

Lunaville: Not only have the people I've known to have served in the military been sincere in their love of country, the overwhelming majority of them were sincere in their desire to protect and serve their fellow citizens. So, yes, some of them hail from modest backgrounds where, perhaps, their best choices were either break into your house and rob you or join the military. That doesn't make them any less sincere in their desire to protect your right to come on this thread and call them losers and generally be insulting. You would be surprised how many of the people on this thread, whom you are insulting, would die to protect your life and your rights.

Except serving in the military hasn't had anything to do with protecting America or freedom since WWII ended.

If your only option in life is to join the military because you were that much of a fark up, I don't think you should be given handouts from my tax dollars just because of your own mistakes.

As regards to a standing army in peace time:

James Madison

"In time of actual war, great discretionary powers are constantly given to the Executive Magistrate. Constant apprehension of War, has the same tendency to render the head too large for the body. A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people."

way south		2012-06-18 09:15:13 PM

Fail in Human Form: way south: leadmetal: Oh heaven forbid someone quit their job.
Only when in military employment is this considered some sort of big deal.
But the military is more like slavery than employment.

In the world where we aren't allowed to use violence the worst this can be is a civil lawsuit for breach of contract.

When soldiers quit the front line, the Hun end up in your yard.
It's kind of a big deal.

If the Huns are coming over the hill I doubt many would desert, being used as a pawn in a global business venture or misguided projection of force is an entirely different matter.

In the tradition of a military, would it matter?

War is a business full of confusion, misdirection, lies and conspiracies. The enemy will be doing his best to make you question every step you take, or to temp you into telling him something useful. He would want you to think about the meaning of your orders or the loyalty of your leaders rather than following them.

Any military leadership, naturally, has zero tolerance for that sort of thing. Soldiers know that already. They have some pretty clear rules and a chain of command to follow. Througout history they've pledged their souls to the machine in a multitude of ways, because it only works on this kind of trust.

You don't want them to start thinking different on game day, so why would you be forgiving in peacetime?

/The beauty of a volunteer military is that people have a choice not to be a part of it.

Lunaville		2012-06-18 09:52:29 PM

intelligent comment below: Lunaville: It's all well and good that Daddy tossed you car keys on your 16th birthday and paid your way through college. Not everyone has that.

Please take your strawman elsewhere. Go to community college if you can't afford or want to take out big loans for a larger school.

If you were an academic failure then you need to go to a community college to get a well rounded education BEFORE you join any organization especially one that hands you ultimate power and responsibility.

Lunaville: As far as love of country goes, I don't know every person who has ever served in the military, but the ones I have met were very sincere in their love of country and their desire to serve their country - yes, while earning money for college, acquiring that vehicle, or otherwise improving their lives. We don't expect Peace Corp volunteers to serve for free why in the world would expect military personnel to forego any personal benefit of service?

At that age you don't even know what loving a woman means not to mention love of country. You are uneducated and unaware of the world around you. You go into a conservative organization with ignorant viewpoints that only get reinforced even more all without a real education as background to counter the ignorance in the military. Chances are you've never even left your state let alone the country to visit other cultures.

Lunaville: Not only have the people I've known to have served in the military been sincere in their love of country, the overwhelming majority of them were sincere in their desire to protect and serve their fellow citizens. So, yes, some of them hail from modest backgrounds where, perhaps, their best choices were either break into your house and rob you or join the military. That doesn't make them any less sincere in their desire to protect your right to come on this thread and call them losers and generally be insulting. You would be surprised how many of the people on this thread, whom you are insulting, would die ...

You've missed my point. I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm saying that you are being mean. Being right and mean isn't going to sell your ideas. It's going to lead to you being right, but not listened to very much.

AtlanticCoast63		2012-06-18 10:05:12 PM

Lunaville: AtlanticCoast63: GizmoToy: AtlanticCoast63: A deserter is never, ever forgotten.

Ever.

Except when they are, like after Vietnam.

Except they weren't. Draft dodgers were extended an amnesty, deserters weren't. If they had been forgotten, there would'nt be an estimated 50K draft dodgers/deserters still in Canada and overseas. Every last one of the deserters has a file, and every last one of them is subject to arrest if they ever set foot here again. Are we actively looking for them? Nope. Will we treat them as they deserve if we run across one? Probably not. Any of the Vietnam era deserters would probably be detained for a few days(and not likely in a jail, but in visitors' quarters at a military post) until they were discharged. But they have not been forgotten. They have committed a Federal offense with no statute of limitations, and it doesn't just go away.

So, those individuals who had been taught all of their lives that the right thing to do, when drafted, was to report for duty; those individuals who tried their utmost to conduct themselves in a manner consistent with what they and their community believed was the right thing to do only to, sadly, learn the hard way that, when faced with the reality of war, they no longer believed participating was the morally correct action: these people are to be punished more harshly than those who simply refused to comply with the draft to begin with?

Why does that seem unjust to me?

Lunaville,

That's actually a good and thoughtful question. The answer is, quite simply, that these people raised their hand before their God and their flag and swore to do their duty until they were properly relieved or discharged. That may be a trite answer, but at the end of the day, that is the one that matters.

Let me point this out too: As nearly as I can tell from TFAs (and quite a few are popping up about this guy) he never made any attempt at all to do anything official about his change of heart. Did he go to his chain of command? Did he see a chaplain? Did he see any of the many organizations that existed then and still do today to help men who felt as he did? Again, as nearly as I can tell, he did not. Had he done so, had he exhausted any of the many different and legally authorized options open to him, been told 'NO' at every turn, and then decided he had no choice but to desert...I still would not have agreed, but I could have certainly understood.

Semi CSB: When I was assigned to a B-52 wing in 1984, one of the nuclear guys - directly responsible for maintenance and care/feeding of the weapons - met a lady who was a Seventh Day Adventist. She told him she ain't marrying him until he leaves that job. He went up the chain, filled out the paperwork...and they transferred him to a nice, quiet admin job. No drama, no desertion. The point is that he had options, and he blew completely past them.

milowitz		2012-06-18 10:27:16 PM

intelligent comment below: milowitz: Don't ever come back to the US.

The poor guy is suffering now in Sweden, with higher standards of living, higher GDP, free education, health care, day care, etc. I'm sure your anger filled post is disappointing to him. All you military welfare losers are just pissed he's smarter than you and got out on his terms with his morals intact.

No anger here, he's old as old news gets. I'm sorry, but who's military welfare here? haha

intelligent comment below		2012-06-18 10:35:53 PM

milowitz: I'm sorry, but who's military welfare here? haha

You live in Maryland. I think the answer is obvious.

intelligent comment below		2012-06-18 10:36:59 PM

Lunaville: You've missed my point. I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm saying that you are being mean. Being right and mean isn't going to sell your ideas. It's going to lead to you being right, but not listened to very much.

the military is the most dangerous organization in the world, and humanity will never see peace as long as American colonialists and apologists take up arms. I am mean because they deserve it, and maybe anger will get them to look at themselves in the mirror.

redmid17		2012-06-18 10:39:50 PM

intelligent comment below: Lunaville: You've missed my point. I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm saying that you are being mean. Being right and mean isn't going to sell your ideas. It's going to lead to you being right, but not listened to very much.

the military is the most dangerous organization in the world, and humanity will never see peace as long as American colonialists and apologists take up arms. I am mean because they deserve it, and maybe anger will get them to look at themselves in the mirror.

What colonies are we currently exploiting for manpower and resources?

CasperImproved		2012-06-19 12:48:46 AM

dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: CasperImproved: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: dave2198: way south: Fail in Human Form: way south: Fail in Human Form:
Oh, and going up against the might of the U.S. government is not the act of a coward.

I have more respect for someone who stays true to their beliefs despite the overwhelming pressure, and possible consequences, than someone who stays the course because they're afraid of the consequences.

[insert picture of Osama bin Ladin, Ted kazynsky, or Timothy McVeigh here]

Mass murders may fit into that category but I don't respect them. It also has no bearing on the point I made.

My trolling aside, the point you made needs to be narrowed down.

There were draft dodgers who stayed in the US and tried to fight the system, went to jail, we're forced into the service or had their lives ruined by the government while standing up for their beliefs.
This guy ran off and enjoyed his life elsewhere.
There's no medals for that.
You don't get honored in stone with the thousands of reluctant warriors who served their nation and caught a bullet for their troubles. You don't become a rebelious legend like the draft dodgers who took it on the chin and faced the consequences.

There isn't anything respectable in his actions. Why shouldn't he face the consequences?

Because the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

The crime is desertion, and the punishment would be fitting if he risked a chance of serving it. He outsmarted the system and got away with it.
Good for him.

If he wants to make right with his peers and his government, there's a trial room waiting for him.
You don't ern respect for walking off on the job.

You also shouldn't have to go to jail for it... since it's a job.

I can think of a few jobs you might go to jail for deserting.
...or at the least get sued and blackballed over.

/Air traffic controller, surgeon, police officer, train engineer, refinery operations, etc...
/Lives depend on military ...

Actually... I like all sorts of people for different reasons. But I do detest people that don't honor their vows. In marriage, or to their country.

If you can't commit to your promises... don't make any.

I don't even dislike you. Just having an opinion different than mine does not put you in my angry box.

studebaker hoch		2012-06-19 02:04:47 AM

I vow to get another beer from the fridge before this night is out, so help me God.

milowitz		2012-06-19 07:15:22 AM

intelligent comment below: milowitz: I'm sorry, but who's military welfare here? haha

You live in Maryland. I think the answer is obvious.

Omigosh I do live in MD!! I used to live in PA so wtf did I do there, make steel or cheesesteaks? What's obvious is that you're a doucher.

dittybopper		2012-06-19 07:46:15 AM

intelligent comment below: If you really loved your country you would have done something worthwhile, like go into politics or law. To make a real difference in life.

Now *THAT* is some comedy right there. Politics or law? Two of the absolutely most sleazy professions out there? I mean, come on. You could have said medicine, or engineering, or science, or *SOMETHING* other than professions that are the moral equivalent of shady used car sales.

dittybopper		2012-06-19 07:51:16 AM

One Bad Apple: dittybopper:

I'm pretty much Captain Milquetoast. I'm so mild-mannered I make Clark Kent look like Ghengis Khan. About the *ONLY* time I won't back down from a confrontation is when my kid is involved. Having said all that, I'm still saying "This guy is a pussy".

Real tough guy when it comes to pushing a kid around, huh ?

You monster

Heh. And the funny part is I just had to discipline the littlebopper because he wasn't obeying the distaffbopper.

One Bad Apple		2012-06-19 03:13:21 PM

dittybopper:

Heh. And the funny part is I just had to discipline the littlebopper because he wasn't obeying the distaffbopper.

Yeah, I have to be "Bad Cop" pretty much every time too.

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