Austerity only serves to give the money back to the people who lost it in the first place.

At this point, the only thing we should be doing is figuring out how to break up massive corporations and disallowing corporations to have such a hold over countries.

unlikely: HellRaisingHoosier: Not a single country has benefited from austerity measures

Germany learned how to do austerity just over ninety years ago. It worked out pretty well for them; just look where they are now.

HellRaisingHoosier: Not just Greece, but globally.
Not a single country has benefited from austerity measures without receiving some sort of large cash stimulus as well.

Sweden?

bartink: Heard the incoming dude and he was making complete sense. He basically said that the austerity is killing their economy. He needs to improve government efficiency and prosecute tax evasion, increase taxes on the wealth, and not discontinuing too much government spending, which is the only thing holding the place together.

Its the only chance they've got. Austerity is killing them.

They have a shrinking economy to tax, the people won't work, and the rich have long ago sent their wealth to other nation's banks. Borrowing more isn't going to help, there simply is no confidence in Greece from within or without.

Corporate Self: kmmontandon: Crocodilly_Pontifex:

Actually, we have Austria to thank for that guy.


And the Austrians gave us head-up-ass economic theory.

Hey! In their defense, they do have all those cute kangaroos and those cuddly little bears!

Freshwater economics and saltwater crocodiles FTW.

/hey look I made an economics joke

trivial use of my dark powers: Maybe she's just tense and could use a quick shoulder massage.

You'd think the lazy (do-nothing) buffoon in the White House would have enough respect for the dignity of the office to provide unsolicited backrubs to heads of state who would so obviously benefit from one (Angela Menstrual should take up yoga). Obumblenuttz (destroyer-of-worlds) is too busy to provide any real leadership. That's why this country is going to hell in a handmaiden.

GET BACK TO WORK, N0-RUB-AMA!!!

/ifeeldirty

Fista-Phobia: [news.bbcimg.co.uk image 304x171]

Boing. Boom. Chuck. Ping.

That came out of nowhere. Let's listen.

Asa Phelps: Of course you realize that the republicans in the USA are advocating exactly the methods that are not working in greece, right?

LOL. You do realize that deficit hawks (of either party, but yes GOP cost cutters would be included) are advocating avoiding the methods that caused the greek crisis in the first place.

And people who are advocating "sure let's borrow all we can it won't be a problem ever" are making the same mistakes the greeks did that got them where
they are today, right?

Debeo Summa Credo: Asa Phelps: Of course you realize that the republicans in the USA are advocating exactly the methods that are not working in greece, right?

LOL. You do realize that deficit hawks (of either party, but yes GOP cost cutters would be included) are advocating avoiding the methods that caused the greek crisis in the first place.

And people who are advocating "sure let's borrow all we can it won't be a problem ever" are making the same mistakes the greeks did that got them where
they are today, right?

Both of those people are republican positions. The democrats are advocating those doing well, wealthy individuals, large multinationals, booming industries like oil, et al and etc pay for the government they use and those revenues be used as part of a stimulus package that includes fundemental infrastructure investment which has been emperically shown to have a high and long ROI.

Triumph: kmmontandon: And the Austrians gave us head-up-ass economic theory.

Silly austrian economists always babbling on about freedom this and freedom that. blah blah blah.

And all of them named "Bruce". Tedious lot.

Triumph: Same difference, you just can't afford to send the kids to college anymore because your standard of living has been lowered by higher prices.

I think this is the point in which someone points out we've been living in a neoliberal paradise for the past thirty-odd years and all we've gotten for it is an exacerbated boom-bust cycle complicated by governmental refusal to hold parties responsible for their unethical, and more often than not blatantly criminal, actions, coupled with bailouts and Keynesian levels of spending for corporations and defense contractors but only those people.

Not to mention the lack of real income growth for anyone but the ultra-wealthy despite near-exponential productivity growth, income and wealth disparity that's actually greater than goddamn Haiti's, rapidly-growing numbers of impoverished citizens and gross political disenfranchisement (procedural and substantive), serious lapses in education, near-complete unaccountability for those in power, and constant warfare paid for in lives and dollars by the very low- and middle-classes who are simultaneously getting it from both ends as mentioned above.

thisispete: I don't think she's helping. People tend to resent foreigners interfering in their country's affairs. The sheer capacity for bloody-mindedness in humanity probably means that Merkel secured more votes against austerity with that statement.

Merkel is not elected by the Greek voters, she is elected by the German ones.

I find it amusing - in general, not in response to this specific post - how people rail against pro-austerity politicians in Greece who didn't reflect the will of the Greek voters, but hold Merkel to a different standard and expect her to defy her electorate and give the Greeks *another* pass

kmmontandon: mikemoto: Yes, I know the Germans are easy to pick on, but hey they gave the world beer. I think they should get a pass because of that.

The Egyptians gave the world beer.

The GermanAustrians gave the world Hitler.

No, they don't get a pass.

FTFY
/G'Day
/DNRTFT

mikemoto: Yes, I know the Germans are easy to pick on, but hey they gave the world beer. I think they should get a pass because of that.

"so you're the guys that conquered Europe and killed all the Communists, Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals?" really is a stinger and makes them feel weak. Please don't tease the Germans.

HellRaisingHoosier: Asa Phelps: Of course you realize that the republicans in the USA are advocating exactly the methods that are not working in greece, right?


Not just Greece, but globally.
Not a single country has benefited from austerity measures without receiving some sort of large cash stimulus as well.

That's blatantly false and damn ignorant on your part.

Did Sweden, Denmark or Finland recieve any stimulus?

Dwight_Yeast: True, but Germans gave America beer. Before Prohibition, the bulk of the breweries were owned by German immigrants.

So, the crime against nature that is American beer, turns out to be the Germans' fault?

An article in The New Yorker had some good insight on this situation recently. It's the problem of "fairness." Germans point out, rightly, that there is a huge problem with Greeks avoiding income tax, while demanding plenty of government benefits. Greeks point out, rightly, that it was the same German banks now piously calling for austerity that offered the "easy credit ripoffs" for decades that got Greece into trouble.

Personally I think the wise thing for the Greeks to do would be to crack down on non-payment of income tax. Take that step and it shows a big commitment to trying to improve their side of the mess. It would give them a lot more moral authority when they go back to the Germans and say, "Now it's your turn. You can't just tell us that we're free to starve."

In any case, today's election may have enormous repercussions for years to come.

kmmontandon: And the Austrians gave us head-up-ass economic theory.

And boomerangs, kangaroos & kiwi fruit.

ThatGuyGreg: How long before this becomes an olde tyme whitey on whitey shootin' war?

I doubt it'll become a shooting war, but I do think the possibility that this situation will lead to the Euro collapsing is quite real, and if that occurs, the chances of Europe returning to the sort of warfare that has filled most of its history will certainly increase as well.

Triumph: kmmontandon: And the Austrians gave us head-up-ass economic theory.

Silly austrian economists always babbling on about freedom this and freedom that. blah blah blah.

Which is the point I've made for years: "Austrian economics" is not economics. It's libertarian dogma, bordering on religion, masquerading as economics.

Triumph: You know - the funny thing is I'm not really down with the austerity stuff (it's too late) and never said I was, but I do believe that governments and businesses need to balance their books just like households do. If you don't, a reduced standard of living will result - ask Warren Sapp or any of the formerly rich. Yes, the Greeks are being preyed upon by financial institutions, but they are the ones who gave up their own freedom to print money and regulate banks. They gave up sovereign control over their banking. So did the United States in 1913. We're in nearly as much trouble as they are, but don't know it yet.

My spending is your income. Your spending is my income. If we both reduce out spending, both our incomes will fall and drag down GDP. Economies are not households. What is necessary for a household is not necessary for a sovereign. What is good for a household is not necessarily good for a sovereign.

As for Greece giving up its power to control its own money supply -- yes, that's true. Which is why it's amusing that the followers of Austrian faux-economics don't understand why their ideas -- the gold standard, most notably -- are utterly insane.

As for the US giving up its ability to print money -- no, no it hasn't. And given that we have our own currency and are not part of a union of pegged currencies, we are nothing like Greece.

Kibbler: An article in The New Yorker had some good insight on this situation recently. It's the problem of "fairness." Germans point out, rightly, that there is a huge problem with Greeks avoiding income tax, while demanding plenty of government benefits. Greeks point out, rightly, that it was the same German banks now piously calling for austerity that offered the "easy credit ripoffs" for decades that got Greece into trouble.

Personally I think the wise thing for the Greeks to do would be to crack down on non-payment of income tax. Take that step and it shows a big commitment to trying to improve their side of the mess. It would give them a lot more moral authority when they go back to the Germans and say, "Now it's your turn. You can't just tell us that we're free to starve."

In any case, today's election may have enormous repercussions for years to come.

The problem is how to pay for that if they institute the austerity the Germans insist upon. The way you enforce tax payment when non-payment and wealth-hiding is rampant is by hiring loads of very good accountants, and you can only do that by spending lots and lots of money. This is hardly a Greek-only concern; the US itself has been facing similar problems hiring enough, and good enough, accountants for years now due to the frequent budget-cutting our regulatory agencies have faced, and that has played no small part in both the collapse of our collected tax revenues, and the financial bubbles of the last 3 decades.

A second issue impacting Greece's ability to do what you suggest is the question of how likely the Germans are to help them do it. Greece has no power to pressure or force other EU members, or Switzerland, or non-Greek banks, to help them in their attempts to extract taxes either owed and not paid, or long in arrears. Knowing what I know about European banking, which admittedly is limited, I more or less assume that much of the taxes Greeks and non-Greek corporations operating in Greece haven't been paying have ended up in the banks of Northern Europe and Switzerland. Will Germany be willing to help Greek investigators get that money, even if it means exposing the possible crimes of their own firms? I suspect not.

WhyteRaven74: Thing is austerity measures can cause inflation as well. Worse they do nothing to fix an economy so that revenues can grow. What Greece needs besides tax revenues is an economy that can generate them and not all all wonky if one part of it slows.

What greece needs is to actually pay the taxes they already assess. Those goat farkers think dodging taxes is a national sport, and the mentality goes from the very poor to the very rich. And then they cry when they overdraft because they are owed their retirement at age 12. The Germans have every right to be pissed that these children who lied to get into the Euro keep demanding their money without the willingness to make the smallest sacrifice. fark them, that 3rd world shiathole of a country deserves everything that is coming to it.

lilplatinum: WhyteRaven74: Thing is austerity measures can cause inflation as well. Worse they do nothing to fix an economy so that revenues can grow. What Greece needs besides tax revenues is an economy that can generate them and not all all wonky if one part of it slows.

What greece needs is to actually pay the taxes they already assess. Those goat farkers think dodging taxes is a national sport, and the mentality goes from the very poor to the very rich. And then they cry when they overdraft because they are owed their retirement at age 12. The Germans have every right to be pissed that these children who lied to get into the Euro keep demanding their money without the willingness to make the smallest sacrifice. fark them, that 3rd world shiathole of a country deserves everything that is coming to it.

"Lied to get into the Euro" I think you mean, "that they helped to lie to get them into the Euro". Also, populations don't just decide to start dodging taxes all of a sudden. Maybe you should take some time to educate yourself about what was happening in Greece between 1948 and 1981, and how that might just have made the population a wee bit leery about paying their taxes or being honest about how much they make in a year, or how the EU took absolutely no steps to help fix that issue either before or after their entry because bankers love easy tax-havens, before you start throwing around the "righteouser than thou" tone there, bub.

Feel free to say no to getting your finances in order, Greece. Simply be aware that others are free to not lend to you anymore. Enjoy the markets--I'm sure they'll love your bonds.

Hastor: The unemployment rate in Greece is only 22% and ticking up steadily. Austerity sure seems to be working.

As opposed to the alternative where Germany cuts them off the teat, their bonds become more junk than they already are and the red cross starts airlifting grain because nobody wants whatever worthless greek paper emerges from the ashes.

The debtor is slave to the lender.

Heron: "Lied to get into the Euro" I think you mean, "that they helped to lie to get them into the Euro".

The fact that they had partners in the lie doesn't make them innocent.

Also, populations don't just decide to start dodging taxes all of a sudden. Maybe you should take some time to educate yourself about what was happening in Greece between 1948 and 1981, and how that might just have made the population a wee bit leery about paying their taxes or being honest about how much they make in a year, or how the EU took absolutely no steps to help fix that issue either before or after their entry because bankers love easy tax-havens, before you start throwing around the "righteouser than thou" tone there, bub.

I don't give a fark what their justification is for not being able to create a functional society. As someone who has to deal with these farkheads on a daily basis since I am in the one industry that they actually are involved in (although from nepotism, not because of any virtue of theirs) I have no pity for their lazy useless culture. fark Greece. We should sell them to Turkey, hell the Turks have better maintained Greek ruins then they do.

ox45tallboy: Greece can either roll over and go bankrupt now, or suffer for decades under these "austerity measures". What kind of a choice is that?

One that is offered to a nation of children.

eudemonist: Feel free to say no to getting your finances in order, Greece. Simply be aware that others are free to not lend to you anymore. Enjoy the markets--I'm sure they'll love your bonds.

Exactly. How are you going to continue to run your deficits if nobody will lend to you.

You can make changes necessary to become a responsible nation or you can forget about any external funding (obviously no lender will lend to Greece at this point, and the below market rate financing that Germany and the eu will go away as well).

Why do Greeks think that Germans and others should just give them a blank check with which to continue their profligate ways.

Debeo Summa Credo: Why do Greeks think that Germans and others should just give them a blank check with which to continue their profligate ways.

They are the same people who riot in the streets whenever the 30 hour work week and 45 year old full pension/healthcare retirement age come into question.

Its easy to be a socialist when your belly is full. Germany should turn off the taps and make em squirm a bit.

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned Krugman's and his Cassandra-like predictions so far. Pretty much everything he has said so far has rung true, and it is quite alarming how none of the media here in the U.S. considers him "serious."

Any love here on Fark?


(click on image to vote in new window)

Comparing Greece to the US is silly, there are so many differences that trying to boil it down to try to advocate a political position in the US is farking retarded. (and both sides do this, "LOL look what socialism gets you" "LOL look what austerity gives you").

Greek mentality towards work is just as big a factor as anything else.

farking lazy southern Europeans.

stratagos: thisispete: I don't think she's helping. People tend to resent foreigners interfering in their country's affairs. The sheer capacity for bloody-mindedness in humanity probably means that Merkel secured more votes against austerity with that statement.

Merkel is not elected by the Greek voters, she is elected by the German ones.

I find it amusing - in general, not in response to this specific post - how people rail against pro-austerity politicians in Greece who didn't reflect the will of the Greek voters, but hold Merkel to a different standard and expect her to defy her electorate and give the Greeks *another* pass

Not up to date with the latest German elections ? Let me help you.

Zombie Butler: Not up to date with the latest German elections ? Let me help you.

The NRW elections were due to a lot of local issues, as TFA you quoted explicitly says..

spawn73: That's blatantly false and damn ignorant on your part.

Did Sweden, Denmark or Finland recieve any stimulus?

What? Are you implying that Sweden is undergoing some form of austerity?

Huh. Greek Citizens aren't happy that they get to pay for bank bailouts by having their wages cut in half, if they're lucky enough to still have a job. And for them, there's no actual difference if the whole thing collapses - no jobs or money either way.

I'm pretty sure I'd vote to bring it all down if I was them.

Never thought I'd see this state making a comeback.