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(CNN)   Egypt's military: So...now that we've dissolved that elected parliament we didn't like, why don't you folk draft up a new constitution for us to see. Meanwhile, we'll draft up our own. Just, you know, to use in the meantime   (cnn.com) divider line 175
    More: Scary, Egypt, Mohamed ElBaradei  
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6029 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Jun 2012 at 1:15 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-15 02:52:44 PM

HotWingConspiracy: I was just dismissing your appeal to your special knowledge as the pap that it is.


Hey whatever works for you, i'm not judging.
 
2012-06-15 02:54:12 PM

TappingTheVein: HotWingConspiracy: I was just dismissing your appeal to your special knowledge as the pap that it is.

Hey whatever works for you, i'm not judging.


Of course not, I'm not Muslim. You wouldn't judge me.
 
2012-06-15 02:55:54 PM

tallguywithglasseson: liam76: Yes, however one election cycle doesn't make a country a democracy forever.

That's a great point, when the power factions dissolved the democratically elected parliament because they didn't like the results, they were protecting democracy.

lulz


See it makes sense because Muslims hate democracy.
 
2012-06-15 02:58:13 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Of course not, I'm not Muslim. You wouldn't judge me


Hey whatever works for you, i'm not judging.
 
2012-06-15 02:58:24 PM

liam76:

Sybarite: Democracy is messy, but it is always preferable to dictatorship, yes even when the results are not what Americans want

A dictatorship is no different than a theocracy, and deomcracy can vote in either.



You've created a false equivalency between the people of Egypt voting in the Muslim Brotherhood to a dominant political position and a theocracy. Sure, if power were handed over to a council of imams and subsequent elections were suspended, it would constitute a theocracy, but neither you nor anyone else has the slightest shred of evidence that would happen. As long as final power continues to rest in the hand of the people, it's a democracy. Perhaps most Egyptians desire a court system based on Sharia law. It's not a country I'd want to live in, but that doesn't mean it's somehow anti-Democratic. A number of countries the United States is closely allied with base their court systems on exactly that, and in several cases that's been without any input from the people. Once again, the choice should be that of Egyptian people, not the military, not the remnants of the Mubarak regime, and certainly not you and me.
 
2012-06-15 02:58:43 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Yes, totally isolated incident. The government isn't constructing massive holding pens for black people or anything.



So a massive plot to detain black people is not a conspiracy but...


HotWingConspiracy: Yeah man, it's a conspiracy.



...the idea that a statement was poorly translated is?

Your contentions regarding the safety of black Africans in Israeli seems to clash with reality as regards the 120,000+ Ethiopian Jews currently living in the country. Not saying they don't have issues but even those they mentioned Link don't come close to what you've alleged.
 
2012-06-15 03:00:46 PM
aaand codifying the rules is a bad thing how? yes it's imposing sounding, but the alternative is doing without, which is worse. Concern that the military is in competition with the fledgeling govt. is premature.
 
2012-06-15 03:01:02 PM
This is a brilliant move, because now instead of having legitimate legislative responsibilities, working with other members of government, and standing for reelection, the Muslim Brotherhood and all other Islamic fundamentalists will simply disappear.
 
2012-06-15 03:01:11 PM

liam76: Magorn: Despite having the name "Muslim" in their name, there is nothing about the Muslim Bortherhood that should be scary to the west. They are far more moderate than the Salafist parties that have been springing up lately, they are committed to electoral democracy, and are pretty decent practical polticians.

Sorry but most of the west isn't for the death penalty for blasphemy against Islam, death penalty for gays, forced ehad coverings, etc.


Not to mention that Qutb was one of the intellectual underpinnings of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Though I see some group took it upon themselves to link Qutb to Al'Qaeda on Wikipedia. That's incorrect.

It's amazing that people are still trying to legitimately claim that Islam is capable of tolerating human-rights as defined by the UN.

OBL wasn't an adherent of 'Qutbism' (It's not even a thing). OBL was a Wahhabi disillusioned with the Saudi regime's closeness to the West.
 
2012-06-15 03:02:24 PM

JK47: So a massive plot to detain black people is not a conspiracy but...


It's definitely not a conspiracy. Sorry to disappoint.

Your contentions regarding the safety of black Africans in Israeli seems to clash with reality as regards the 120,000+ Ethiopian Jews currently living in the country. Not saying they don't have issues but even those they mentioned Link don't come close to what you've alleged.

You're only allowed to firebomb them if they are asylum seekers looking for work.
 
2012-06-15 03:04:40 PM

HotWingConspiracy: I seriously can't discern what the fark this is. I don't even know how to answer. I guess I'll just ask you to point out the bigotry and racism again?


If I am parsing this correctly:
1) A person in this thread mentioned a friend was visiting Israel and Egypt.
2) Tapping warned them about how women were treated in Egypt by some Egyptians.
3) You warned them that if they were black they might be mistreated in Israel.
4) Liam accuses you of racism for not referring to the bad things that might happen to that person in Egypt, even though that was already covered by Tapping.


TappingTheVein: Cubicle Jockey: It was translated that way also by Haaretz:
"Muslims that arrive here do not even believe that this country belongs to us, to the white man."

Haaretz, a hard-leftist paper not exactl a fan of his political party, used the colorful interpretation of Human Rights Watch. I linked the original article from Maariv, the one they "translated" where he never said anything of the sort.

Not to mention that he himself is not "the white man" being a mizrahi jew so it would be kinda counter-productive for him to say that.


Dude. I posted his picture. He's white. He's not Hitler's nordic dreamboat, but you can't exactly claim he would look like a native if he was wandering either side of the rift valley.

Your link is unhelpful for the 98%+ of humanity that does not read hebrew. Nothing in the Haaretz link indicated that the reported used the HRW translation. Will you point to the line in your linked article that you believe was mistranslated, and provide your personal translation of it?
 
2012-06-15 03:05:20 PM

dryknife: It's a pyramid scheme.


www.fritriac.de
 
2012-06-15 03:06:01 PM

liam76: Ned Stark: What exactly is undemocratic about what he said?

If you vote in a theocracy (which the MB wasnts) the country is no longer democratic.



Shafiq's rival in the Saturday-Sunday runoff, Mohammed Morsi of the Muslim Brotherhood, said he was unhappy about the rulings but accepted them.

"It is my duty as the future president of Egypt, God willing, to separate between the state's authorities and accept the rulings," the U.S.-trained engineer said in a television interview. Late Thursday, he told a news conference: "Millions will go to the ballot boxes on Saturday and Sunday to say 'no' to the tyrants."


To be fair to Morsi, he ostensibly respects the ruling of the court system.
 
2012-06-15 03:06:54 PM

HotWingConspiracy: liam76: HotWingConspiracy: liam76: You aren't a bigot or a racist, yet you like to pretedn that Israeli's thor firebombs at black peopel on such a regular basis that black people should be afraid to go there? Ok.

What the fark is this shiat?

Point out the bigotry and racism.

Well if you aren't a bigot or racist, why make the implication that you did? What possible other explination would you paint all of Israel with that brush but not use similiar brush when Egypt does the same thing?

I seriously can't discern what the fark this is. I don't even know how to answer. I guess I'll just ask you to point out the bigotry and racism again?


HotWingConspiracy: Also, what is the threshold for regular/uncommon firebombing? Do you think it's an important distinction when you're the target? Should the other violence be ignored

Funny I don't see you warning any christians against going to Egypt despite the far greater number of firebombings of christian groups there. I am sure it isn't becasue you have a double standard though...

Tapping already took care of the Egyptian travel warning, that would have been redundant.


I missed when he warn them about fire bombings. I take it presidential canidates stated words as his goal and you call me a bigot, you paint all of israel with the broad brush off firebombing because of 1 incident, ignore Egypt's fire bombs and you don't think you're a bigot. If you can't figure out how your double standards are bigoted I can help you.
 
2012-06-15 03:08:58 PM

Sybarite: You've created a false equivalency between the people of Egypt voting in the Muslim Brotherhood to a dominant political position and a theocracy. Sure, if power were handed over to a council of imams and subsequent elections were suspended, it would constitute a theocracy, but neither you nor anyone else has the slightest shred of evidence that would happen. As long as final power continues to rest in the hand of the people, it's a democracy. Perhaps most Egyptians desire a court system based on Sharia law. It's not a country I'd want to live in, but that doesn't mean it's somehow anti-Democratic. A number of countries the United States is closely allied with base their court systems on exactly that, and in several cases that's been without any input from the people. Once again, the choice should be that of Egyptian people, not the military, not the remnants of the Mubarak regime, and certainly not you and me.



Well see that's where you are wrong. Democracy is inherently secular though it may be influenced by a particular religion, incorporate a state sanctioned religion, or delegate some aspects of the legal system to a religious body. However it presupposes that there is a greater civil legal construct.

Thus a system of government that directly incorporates religious groups who provide core functions for the government (such as administering law) is not, in a classic sense, democratic. In fact it falls closer to the Theodemocratic format that was proposed by Joseph Smith of the Church of Latter Day Saints.
 
2012-06-15 03:10:36 PM

HotWingConspiracy: You're only allowed to firebomb them if they are asylum seekers looking for work.


You are not allowed to firebomb anyone and they are not asylum seekers but illegal work seeking aliens. If they were asylum seekers the definition changed when they paid lots of money to cross over 2 more countries to enter Israel illegally because they know life in Israel is a lot better than other neighboring countries.

But don't let actual facts derail your bullshiat, carry on.

Cubicle Jockey: Dude. I posted his picture. He's white


Dude, he's a mizrahi jew. Go learn what that means.

Cubicle Jockey: Your link is unhelpful for the 98%+ of humanity that does not read hebrew. Nothing in the Haaretz link indicated that the reported used the HRW translation.


Email the reporter and ask for her source. I can't find anything about him saying "white man" in the original article. Google translate it or something.
 
2012-06-15 03:11:37 PM

liam76: I missed when he warn them about fire bombings.


He keeps tabs on rape apparently.


you paint all of israel with the broad brush off firebombing because of 1 incident,

No, I issued a travel warning. Did a firebombing take place there recently? Yes? Seems I'm accurate.

ignore Egypt's fire bombs and you don't think you're a bigot.

How did I ignore it? Have you people come to the conclusion that fark posts need to be fair and balanced?

If you can't figure out how your double standards are bigoted I can help you.

Yes, please help.
 
2012-06-15 03:12:31 PM
Serious question:

Is there a history of Islamic democracies becoming theocracies without popular elections?
 
2012-06-15 03:13:13 PM

Pincy: We've been around how long on this planet now and yet half the people in this world still can't figure out how to govern themselves decently.


Half? I'll give you some Scandanavian countries, but other than that, I dunno...
 
2012-06-15 03:13:44 PM

Sybarite: Perhaps most Egyptians desire a court system based on Sharia law.



Just a follow-up but if you examine this further you may note that there seems to be an incompatibility between a government employing a Sharia legal system and democratic institutions. The central problem, at least in my view, arises from the legislative process. In a democratic state laws are proposed and written within a representative body (legislature). However, proposing or modifying laws would be limited, if not impossible, in a Sharia legal system given that it's based on laws with religious and cultural foundations. The legal system would, itself, remain static (as is the case with religious rules) and thus immune from change via democratic processes (voting and legislation).
 
2012-06-15 03:15:44 PM

JK47: Well see that's where you are wrong. Democracy is inherently secular though it may be influenced by a particular religion, incorporate a state sanctioned religion, or delegate some aspects of the legal system to a religious body. However it presupposes that there is a greater civil legal construct.


Democracy incorporates a state-sanctioned religion? Delegates aspects of the legal system to a religious body?

WAT???
 
2012-06-15 03:16:12 PM

Sybarite: liam76:

Sybarite: Democracy is messy, but it is always preferable to dictatorship, yes even when the results are not what Americans want

A dictatorship is no different than a theocracy, and deomcracy can vote in either.


You've created a false equivalency between the people of Egypt voting in the Muslim Brotherhood to a dominant political position and a theocracy. Sure, if power were handed over to a council of imams and subsequent elections were suspended, it would constitute a theocracy, but neither you nor anyone else has the slightest shred of evidence that would happen. As long as final power continues to rest in the hand of the people, it's a democracy. Perhaps most Egyptians desire a court system based on Sharia law. It's not a country I'd want to live in, but that doesn't mean it's somehow anti-Democratic. A number of countries the United States is closely allied with base their court systems on exactly that, and in several cases that's been without any input from the people. Once again, the choice should be that of Egyptian people, not the military, not the remnants of the Mubarak regime, and certainly not you and me.


You might want to refer to the link tapping the vein posted. I don't know what will happen if the muslim brotherhood come to power but I do know what their goals are.

Also keep in mind I never said I support the court's ruling I don't know enough about why they're making this rolling.
 
2012-06-15 03:16:16 PM
Who is Obama backing this time?
 
2012-06-15 03:18:35 PM

TappingTheVein: HotWingConspiracy: You're only allowed to firebomb them if they are asylum seekers looking for work.

You are not allowed to firebomb anyone and they are not asylum seekers but illegal work seeking aliens. If they were asylum seekers the definition changed when they paid lots of money to cross over 2 more countries to enter Israel illegally because they know life in Israel is a lot better than other neighboring countries.

But don't let actual facts derail your bullshiat, carry on.


Huh. Well at least by booting them out they might avoid being attacked by a mob of racists in Israel. That's kind of nice.

Read all about it
 
2012-06-15 03:20:37 PM

Allen. The end.: JK47: Well see that's where you are wrong. Democracy is inherently secular though it may be influenced by a particular religion, incorporate a state sanctioned religion, or delegate some aspects of the legal system to a religious body. However it presupposes that there is a greater civil legal construct.

Democracy incorporates a state-sanctioned religion? Delegates aspects of the legal system to a religious body?

WAT???


Missed the word 'may' did you?
 
2012-06-15 03:21:04 PM

kindms: "Moussa said the previously instituted constitutional panel was "unsatisfactory for many parties" because of the influence in it held by the Muslim Brotherhood."

The most important part of that story was the last line.

Hey Egyptian military, ya we really don't like the Muslim Brotherhood having a chance to grab this much power in your country, and if you like all that aid you are getting we think it is a good idea for you to dissolve parliament. Also if you could give us a new Mubarak that would be swell

-Signed USA


If you think we had to say it out loud, or in writing, you are an idiot. The Egyptian military knows who pays their salaries, and it isn't the Egyptian government. Left to its own devices, they'd end up with a salary paid in goats.

Soft power can be really effective, particularly when you remember that self-interest is the most powerful force in the universe.
 
2012-06-15 03:21:23 PM

TappingTheVein: Dude, he's a mizrahi jew. Go learn what that means.


From your link.: "Jews descended from the Jewish communities of the Middle East, North Africa and the Caucasus."

Regardless of your self-pwning, you appear to have a wierd definition of white. Persians are white. Arabs are white. Turks are white. Berbers are white. Dravidians are "white" despite having more melanin in their skin than the average member of the NBA.
www.indiatravelite.com

It's not just a European thing.
 
2012-06-15 03:24:22 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Huh. Well at least by booting them out they might avoid being attacked by a mob of racists in Israel. That's kind of nice.

Read all about it


Yes how dares Israel, like every other country in the world, deport illegal immigrants ?
 
2012-06-15 03:26:42 PM

TappingTheVein: HotWingConspiracy: Huh. Well at least by booting them out they might avoid being attacked by a mob of racists in Israel. That's kind of nice.

Read all about it

Yes how dares Israel, like every other country in the world, deport illegal immigrants ?


You said they aren't asylum seekers. Turns out you were lying.
 
2012-06-15 03:29:31 PM

Cubicle Jockey: Regardless of your self-pwning, you appear to have a wierd definition of white.


Mizrahi jews like Eli Yishai do not consider themselves white and are quite proud of it. Read about the Shas political party and mizrahi Vs. ashkenazi jews.
 
2012-06-15 03:32:30 PM

HotWingConspiracy: You said they aren't asylum seekers. Turns out you were lying


Because they are not asylum seekers. Like i said: If they were asylum seekers the definition changed when they paid lots of money to cross over 2 more countries to enter Israel illegally because they know life in Israel is a lot better than other neighboring countries.
 
2012-06-15 03:36:43 PM

TappingTheVein: HotWingConspiracy: You said they aren't asylum seekers. Turns out you were lying

Because they are not asylum seekers. Like i said: If they were asylum seekers the definition changed when they paid lots of money to cross over 2 more countries to enter Israel illegally because they know life in Israel is a lot better than other neighboring countries.


Oh right, I forgot you took the step to personally redefine them.

You prove much less convincing than those dozens of articles about their status as asylum seekers. Just sayin
 
2012-06-15 03:44:00 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Oh right, I forgot you took the step to personally redefine them.


Nope, unlike you i actually know what asylum seekers mean and i read the article from 2 weeks ago on Yedioth Aharonot where an Ethiopian reporter went undercover as an illegal immigrant in Tel-Aviv and he found out how the illegal work seekers lie about being refugees to the israeli aid organizations.

HotWingConspiracy: You prove much less convincing than those dozens of articles about their status as asylum seekers. Just sayin


Here you go: You are an asylum seeker when you cross international borders to another country. When you pay a couple of thousands of dollars to cross a couple more countries to be smuggled into Israel because you know life there is much better you are no longer an asylum seeker. Think nothing of it, i enjoy educating the ignorant.
 
2012-06-15 03:49:23 PM

TappingTheVein: Nope, unlike you i actually know what asylum seekers mean and i read the article from 2 weeks ago on Yedioth Aharonot where an Ethiopian reporter went undercover as an illegal immigrant in Tel-Aviv and he found out how the illegal work seekers lie about being refugees to the israeli aid organizations.


And I presume since then you've gained access to and reviewed all of their cases? No? Well shiat, sounds like you're talking out of your ass then.

Something something broad brush something something.
 
2012-06-15 03:54:58 PM

Ned Stark: Missed the word 'may' did you?


No, I didn't. Anyone (or any party) who is desirous of power will NEVER miss the word "may", or any other variable.
 
2012-06-15 04:10:50 PM

HotWingConspiracy: And I presume since then you've gained access to and reviewed all of their cases? No? Well shiat, sounds like you're talking out of your ass then.


Like i said, you have no clue about what asylum seeker means and of course not aware of the strange coincidence that almost all of these 'asylum seekers' are males between the ages of 25-35.

And of course you are clueless about the fact that not all of the illegal immigrants are deported.

You mentioned something about broad brush ?
 
2012-06-15 04:12:02 PM

TappingTheVein: HotWingConspiracy: And I presume since then you've gained access to and reviewed all of their cases? No? Well shiat, sounds like you're talking out of your ass then.

Like i said, you have no clue about what asylum seeker means and of course not aware of the strange coincidence that almost all of these 'asylum seekers' are males between the ages of 25-35.

And of course you are clueless about the fact that not all of the illegal immigrants are deported.

You mentioned something about broad brush ?


zzzzz

Sorry I caught you in a lie, bro.
 
2012-06-15 04:15:18 PM
i50.tinypic.com
"The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."
 
2012-06-15 04:19:17 PM

Sybarite: iheartscotch: Sybarite: Seems like the military has managed to roll back almost every gain made by the revolution and Shafik's election would be the nail in the coffin.

Would you prefer that the Muslim brotherhood won the election? This way, Egypt MIGHT stay secular.

/ both are bad options; one, however, is slightly better than the other


I'm fine with whomever the Egyptian people choose in a free and fair election. Their degree of secularism is their business and would have been hashed out in the constitutional committee had the process been allowed to continue. As mentioned above, the MB are the radical boogeyman that certain shrill sections of the western media want people to believe. They were clearly the dominant choice of the very same people who were out in the streets risking their lives to overthrow Mubarak. Democracy is messy, but it is always preferable to dictatorship, yes even when the results are not what Americans want.


I see; so the HAMAS maneuver? Let them elect whoever they want and they'll see that they were better at firing rockets; than actually running government? That worked so well last time.

I seem to remember the candidate for the Muslim Brotherhood promising to destroy israel and create an Arab Caliphite with Egypt at its center.

I do agree that they have the right to elect whomever they wish; I also agree that democracy is messy. But, my point was, neither option is good in the long run. One is ever so slightly better for US / Egypt relations

/ the whole thing is a mess; I wonder what the blue book value is on a ~ 6 billion year old planet, inhabited by slightly hairy, psychotic apes.
 
2012-06-15 04:21:25 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Sorry I caught you in a lie, bro.


Nope, you just showed another level of your ignorance: not knowing what asylum seeker means.
But if lying to yourself helps you out go ahead, i don't mind.
 
2012-06-15 04:30:12 PM

TappingTheVein: HotWingConspiracy: Sorry I caught you in a lie, bro.

Nope, you just showed another level of your ignorance: not knowing what asylum seeker means.
But if lying to yourself helps you out go ahead, i don't mind.


You're right, I failed to take in to account that you read an article that said some of them weren't actually asylum seekers. That obviously nullifies the news about Israel deporting asylum seekers.
 
2012-06-15 04:33:45 PM

TappingTheVein: Brotherhood


and fta:

"The court ruling was "a complete coup d'etat through which the military council is writing off the most noble stage in the nation's history," said Mohamed el-Beltagy, a senior member of the Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party.

Mohamed ElBaradei, a 2005 Nobel Peace Prize winner who waged a failed presidential bid, called for the country's military rulers to postpone the runoff election."

They gave the dude from the Muslim Brotherhood a Nobel Peace Prize? ummm what? I'm so confused.
 
2012-06-15 04:34:21 PM

HotWingConspiracy: You're right, I failed to take in to account that you read an article that said some of them weren't actually asylum seekers. That obviously nullifies the news about Israel deporting asylum seekers


Here you go: You are an asylum seeker when you cross international borders to another country. When you pay a couple of thousands of dollars to cross a couple more countries to be smuggled into Israel because you know life there is much better you are no longer an asylum seeker. Think nothing of it, i enjoy educating the ignorant.

Open a map and see where Sudan is and where Israel is.

I don't mind repeating myself. You obviously have some kind of impediment about grasping facts.
 
2012-06-15 04:37:28 PM

brandent: They gave the dude from the Muslim Brotherhood a Nobel Peace Prize? ummm what? I'm so confused


Mohamed ElBaradei is not of the Muslim Brotherhood.
And for the record, the Nobel Peace prize, like the UN itself, is sometimes a farce.
 
2012-06-15 04:39:42 PM

TappingTheVein: HotWingConspiracy: You're right, I failed to take in to account that you read an article that said some of them weren't actually asylum seekers. That obviously nullifies the news about Israel deporting asylum seekers

Here you go: You are an asylum seeker when you cross international borders to another country. When you pay a couple of thousands of dollars to cross a couple more countries to be smuggled into Israel because you know life there is much better you are no longer an asylum seeker. Think nothing of it, i enjoy educating the ignorant.

Open a map and see where Sudan is and where Israel is.


And that is clearly the case for all the people they are kicking out or detaining. You read an article.

I don't mind repeating myself.

That's what propagandists do, it's cool.
 
2012-06-15 04:42:07 PM

brandent: TappingTheVein: Brotherhood

and fta:

"The court ruling was "a complete coup d'etat through which the military council is writing off the most noble stage in the nation's history," said Mohamed el-Beltagy, a senior member of the Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party.

Mohamed ElBaradei, a 2005 Nobel Peace Prize winner who waged a failed presidential bid, called for the country's military rulers to postpone the runoff election."

They gave the dude from the Muslim Brotherhood a Nobel Peace Prize? ummm what? I'm so confused.


My sarcasm meter may be off, but no.

ElBaradei worked for UN and largely stayed out Of Egyptian politics until the "revolution". He sided with the intellectuals and moderates, the people behind the revolution.

The MB (of which el-Beltagy is a part) got involved later in the game (and are not "moderates" unless you compare them to extreme religious fundies) but had a lot of the uneducated and rural vote behind them because, hey they are muslim.
 
2012-06-15 04:43:11 PM
 
2012-06-15 04:47:54 PM

HotWingConspiracy: That's what propagandists do, it's cool


Again: whatever you say to yourself to excuse you inability to grasp facts like what asylum seeker means to keep your state of denial about your ignorance is your own sad business. I don't mind.
 
2012-06-15 04:58:10 PM
Democracy is only "good" if the majority of the people allowed to vote mean to deal justly with the people whom they outvote, and mean to deal justly with their neighbors.

If the majority of voters are intent on oppressing a minority, or raiding, making war on, or killing their neighbors, then democracy is exactly as bad as the will of that majority determines for it to be.

There is a reason that there are parts of the world where the government has "democracy," after a fashion, until the people vote in too extremist and fundamentalist an Islamic government. Then they have a military coup, a rule by hardliners, a gradual transition back to elections of moderates who are tolerable to the military, and they have "democracy," after a fashion, until the people vote in too extremist and fundamentalist an Islamic government.

This division between the civilian religious establishment and voters, and the military (the officers are usually from upper class, wealthier families), seems to be a middle eastern equivalent of separation of powers.

Politics isn't really about how government ideally ought to be structured. Politics is the Art of the Possible. It's about what works. And in a number of areas of the middle east, dividing power between the religious establishment in the hinterlands and the slightly more sophisticated military seems to provide some kind of stabilizing balance.

The upshot of which is that they're working it out in a time honored fashion for the region and we should keep our own and other people's grubby mitts out of it as much as reasonably possible.

Both the military faction and the religious faction represent legitimate aspects of Egypt as a State. It's Her own business. Obviously, we have interests and should be friendly, but part of being friendly is respecting that it's Her business.
 
2012-06-15 05:00:46 PM
Wow TappingTheVein, keep digging that hole you're in.
 
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