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(The Consumerist)   "Sorry to hear your son died. But you owe money for his student loans. We can't tell you how much you owe, but we expect payment on time. Have a wonderful day"   (consumerist.com) divider line 300
    More: Sick, student loans, federal student loans, ProPublica, sons, payments  
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25413 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Jun 2012 at 8:15 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-14 04:48:40 PM
He doesn't have statements mailed to him that the father can get?
 
2012-06-14 04:52:17 PM
Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.
 
2012-06-14 04:55:04 PM

bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.


But he's going to need a loan at some point, and they're not going to give him one unless you co-sign. So your plan will fail to get him into anything beyond community college.
 
2012-06-14 05:01:12 PM

downstairs: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

But he's going to need a loan at some point, and they're not going to give him one unless you co-sign. So your plan will fail to get him into anything beyond community college.


This. I'm not sure what it's like now but in the mid 90's I tried repeatedly to get a loan without parents cosigning and it's was impossible unless you were over the age of 24.
 
2012-06-14 05:03:22 PM

downstairs: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

But he's going to need a loan at some point, and they're not going to give him one unless you co-sign. So your plan will fail to get him into anything beyond community college.


Federal student loans don't require a cosigner, just private ones. With any luck, they'll still be around. :) And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.
 
2012-06-14 05:05:23 PM
The loan's current servicer - ACS Education Services - is obligated to reveal this amount, but the father is having trouble getting the truth out of the company, a subsidiary of Xerox.

Bullshiat. There are some servicers that are shady. This isn't one of them. The father probably doesn't have the students account number, SSN, ID number etc.

There's an awful lot missing out of this story.
 
2012-06-14 05:06:12 PM
The other loan began with the now-bankrupt Education Finance Partners, which was paid a $2.5 million settlement in 2007 over allegations it paid colleges to push students toward its high-interest loans.

Huh?
 
2012-06-14 05:08:59 PM

bdub77: downstairs: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

But he's going to need a loan at some point, and they're not going to give him one unless you co-sign. So your plan will fail to get him into anything beyond community college.

Federal student loans don't require a cosigner, just private ones. With any luck, they'll still be around. :) And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.


93% of all student loans are federal
 
2012-06-14 05:09:17 PM

beantowndog: The other loan began with the now-bankrupt Education Finance Partners, which was paid a $2.5 million settlement in 2007 over allegations it paid colleges to push students toward its high-interest loans.

Huh?


Oh. Them.

Yeah, so they came and said "hey financial aid offices, you should tell kids to use our product!! It's great! Here's a bunch of candy".

Reputable Financial aid offices: "...this loan sucks, dude. Go away."
Sketchy Financial aid offices: "By candy, you mean money we can use for "scholarship and budgeting" purpose. This loan is wonderful!"
 
2012-06-14 05:09:57 PM

bdub77: downstairs: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

But he's going to need a loan at some point, and they're not going to give him one unless you co-sign. So your plan will fail to get him into anything beyond community college.

Federal student loans don't require a cosigner, just private ones. With any luck, they'll still be around. :) And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.


Correct. Federal student loans, which are pretty easy to get, do not require a parental co-signer.

If you don't want to be on the hook for a loan if worse comes to worst, then don't co-sign.
 
2012-06-14 05:10:05 PM

ArkAngel: 93% of all student loans are federal


Man, I wish I wasn't leaving my office right now.

That statistic is absurd. No offense man, but private student lending is a multi billion dollar industry.
 
2012-06-14 05:11:58 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Correct. Federal student loans, which are pretty easy to get, do not require a parental co-signer.

If you don't want to be on the hook for a loan if worse comes to worst, then don't co-sign.


Thanks, I take back my statement. I got loans back in 1994... so my memory is shady.

/Paid in full pretty quickly.
 
2012-06-14 05:12:34 PM

what_now: Bullshiat. There are some servicers that are shady. This isn't one of them. The father probably doesn't have the students account number, SSN, ID number etc.

There's an awful lot missing out of this story.


Welcome to "The Consumerist!"
 
2012-06-14 05:12:43 PM
I would tell them that until they either A) They give me the info I need or B) They take me to court, they can C) fark Right Off
 
2012-06-14 05:13:37 PM
 
2012-06-14 05:14:10 PM

what_now: beantowndog: The other loan began with the now-bankrupt Education Finance Partners, which was paid a $2.5 million settlement in 2007 over allegations it paid colleges to push students toward its high-interest loans.

Huh?

Oh. Them.

Yeah, so they came and said "hey financial aid offices, you should tell kids to use our product!! It's great! Here's a bunch of candy".

Reputable Financial aid offices: "...this loan sucks, dude. Go away."
Sketchy Financial aid offices: "By candy, you mean money we can use for "scholarship and budgeting" purpose. This loan is wonderful!"


But they won the settlement?
 
2012-06-14 05:17:39 PM

bdub77: And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA H HAHA


Oh wow. You're a riot. Good luck with that.
 
2012-06-14 05:19:30 PM

Majick Thise: I would tell them that until they either A) They give me the info I need or B) They take me to court, they can C) fark Right Off


Can't you just not pay a loan if they can't produce the documents, and not get in legal trouble?
 
2012-06-14 05:24:35 PM
Isn't there something that you can send a collection agency stating, basically, "only contact me via mail and only do that if you can send me proof that you actually own this loan"?
 
2012-06-14 05:27:47 PM

what_now: ArkAngel: 93% of all student loans are federal

Man, I wish I wasn't leaving my office right now.

That statistic is absurd. No offense man, but private student lending is a multi billion dollar industry.


"Private" student lending is a lot smaller now that the federal government wasn't essentially giving banks free guarantees for originating federal loans.

But yes, the vast majority of loans are FAFSA-type "awarded" loans.

/lotsa private loans for law students, though
 
2012-06-14 05:28:25 PM

what_now: ArkAngel: 93% of all student loans are federal

Man, I wish I wasn't leaving my office right now.

That statistic is absurd. No offense man, but private student lending is a multi billion dollar industry.


And when there are a trillion dollars in loans, you can have the feds doling out 93% and still have a multi-billion dollar private industry.

Link
Link
Link
 
2012-06-14 05:29:22 PM

doglover: bdub77: And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA H HAHA


Oh wow. You're a riot. Good luck with that.


Yeah. Even at a state college, working on the side isn't going to make much of a dent in the 2 years on the community college side. Student would be better off concentrating on their studies.
 
2012-06-14 05:45:28 PM

bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.


Ah. So you're an ass. That makes sense.
 
2012-06-14 05:48:23 PM

DamnYankees: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

Ah. So you're an ass. That makes sense.


I don't see how that's assholish. I don't know where it became law that parents need to pay for their kids' college. I certainly never had any help with my college stuff other than free room and board while I was doing my 2 years at CC.
 
2012-06-14 05:52:06 PM

what_now: ArkAngel: 93% of all student loans are federal

Man, I wish I wasn't leaving my office right now.

That statistic is absurd. No offense man, but private student lending is a multi billion dollar industry.


The only way that makes sense is if you mean 93% of all student loans are guaranteed by the feds. Which might not be true but would be more likely to be true.
 
2012-06-14 05:53:06 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: I don't see how that's assholish. I don't know where it became law that parents need to pay for their kids' college. I certainly never had any help with my college stuff other than free room and board while I was doing my 2 years at CC.


It's not a "law", but if you have the means to support your child's education and you choose not to, I don't know what else to say. The fact that you weren't helped doesn't mean you need to pass on that privation to your kids.
 
2012-06-14 05:53:38 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: doglover: bdub77: And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA H HAHA


Oh wow. You're a riot. Good luck with that.

Yeah. Even at a state college, working on the side isn't going to make much of a dent in the 2 years on the community college side. Student would be better off concentrating on their studies.


I paid room and board and living expenses for 3 years of college. My parents paid a small part of tuition and the rest were student loans I picked up and paid off.

And I don't consider myself an ass for wanting to make my kid responsible. Again, best laid plans. There's no saying what will happen in the future, but that's what I plan to do. I think college is worth it now, but in the future who knows?

Personally I think it's hilarious that everyone wants to entitle their kid to everything. Good luck with that.
 
2012-06-14 05:57:06 PM

DamnYankees: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: I don't see how that's assholish. I don't know where it became law that parents need to pay for their kids' college. I certainly never had any help with my college stuff other than free room and board while I was doing my 2 years at CC.

It's not a "law", but if you have the means to support your child's education and you choose not to, I don't know what else to say. The fact that you weren't helped doesn't mean you need to pass on that privation to your kids.


Up until college, you do support your child's education, through taxes, through working with your kid on homework and supporting them in every way, whether that's rides to school or other extracurricular activities.

At some point you should start passing off the reins. Do you expect to just give your kid everything they want until they die? Would that be the proper way to raise a child?
 
2012-06-14 05:57:40 PM

bdub77: And I don't consider myself an ass for wanting to make my kid responsible.


I like the idea that refusing to help your child makes your child responsible. That's comedy right there.

I don't know about you, but where I come from there this thing called "family". It means you help each other out, inter-generationally. My grandparents did what they could to help my parents get a good education in life. My parents helped my brothers and I. And in return, I will help my children. And on the flip side, when needed, my parents help out my grandparents in their old age, I will help out my parents in their old age, and I hope my children will help me in mine.

The idea that you think creating this sort of familial commitment is fostering "entitlement" is pitiful.
 
2012-06-14 05:59:23 PM

DamnYankees: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: I don't see how that's assholish. I don't know where it became law that parents need to pay for their kids' college. I certainly never had any help with my college stuff other than free room and board while I was doing my 2 years at CC.

It's not a "law", but if you have the means to support your child's education and you choose not to, I don't know what else to say. The fact that you weren't helped doesn't mean you need to pass on that privation to your kids.


I don't really think that's entirely true. I certainly tried harder and appreciated what I was able to accomplish much more than the folks who had their parents pay for everything seemed to, I can tell you that.
 
2012-06-14 06:00:20 PM

bdub77: At some point you should start passing off the reins.


Yes, when they don't need you anymore. But the job of the parent is not to cut the child off at their time of choosing. It's the job of the child, once able, to say "I can do it on my own now".

If you have a drug-addicted kid or something who is beyond help, then maybe. But if your kid says "I want to be a doctor" and you say "ok, good luck with that - I have the money but I'm not going to help you", then that's just farked up.
 
2012-06-14 06:01:31 PM

DamnYankees: I like the idea that refusing to help your child makes your child responsible.


Its a loan. The kid should have to be fully responsible for it. I'm pretty sure my parents didn't co-sign, because it was a federal loan. I paid it back all by my self.
 
2012-06-14 06:02:39 PM

DamnYankees: bdub77: And I don't consider myself an ass for wanting to make my kid responsible.

I like the idea that refusing to help your child makes your child responsible. That's comedy right there.

I don't know about you, but where I come from there this thing called "family". It means you help each other out, inter-generationally. My grandparents did what they could to help my parents get a good education in life. My parents helped my brothers and I. And in return, I will help my children. And on the flip side, when needed, my parents help out my grandparents in their old age, I will help out my parents in their old age, and I hope my children will help me in mine.

The idea that you think creating this sort of familial commitment is fostering "entitlement" is pitiful.


You and I have very different opinions of what familial commitment is, as we do about most things. And yes I happen to consider teaching your children financial responsibility to be very important. If you think it abusive in any way to suggest that your kid partially earn his way through school you are entitled to your opinion, but frankly I think it's a stupid one.
 
2012-06-14 06:02:45 PM

downstairs: DamnYankees: I like the idea that refusing to help your child makes your child responsible.

Its a loan. The kid should have to be fully responsible for it. I'm pretty sure my parents didn't co-sign, because it was a federal loan. I paid it back all by my self.


Same for me. I have loans and am paying them back. I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic though.

/well, it has to do with the actual topic of TFA, i could you that.
 
2012-06-14 06:03:26 PM

bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.


I am going to put my kids on the same college financing plan my parents put me on - Figure it out yourself.

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: DamnYankees: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

Ah. So you're an ass. That makes sense.

I don't see how that's assholish. I don't know where it became law that parents need to pay for their kids' college. I certainly never had any help with my college stuff other than free room and board while I was doing my 2 years at CC.


Same here. My parents let me stay rent-free in their house while I went to CC, but paying for college was on me.

It's called "building character". If someone has to work for something, they'll appreciate it more than if they just have it given to them. If a kid is paying his/her own way through school, they'll work harder than someone who is on someone else's dime.
 
2012-06-14 06:03:56 PM

bdub77: If you think it abusive in any way to suggest that your kid partially earn his way through school you are entitled to your opinion


I never once used the word "abusve". Don't put words in my mouth.
 
2012-06-14 06:07:22 PM

DamnYankees: bdub77: If you think it abusive in any way to suggest that your kid partially earn his way through school you are entitled to your opinion

I never once used the word "abusve". Don't put words in my mouth.


No you simply imply it. I'm sorry, what's the correct term? Wrong? So sorry I'll try to use smaller words next time.
 
2012-06-14 06:09:02 PM

bdub77: DamnYankees: bdub77: If you think it abusive in any way to suggest that your kid partially earn his way through school you are entitled to your opinion

I never once used the word "abusve". Don't put words in my mouth.

No you simply imply it. I'm sorry, what's the correct term? Wrong? So sorry I'll try to use smaller words next time.


Callous is probably a word I would use,
 
2012-06-14 06:11:58 PM

dustman81: It's called "building character".


Keep telling yourself these little morality tales. It doesn't make them true. You think you're of a higher character because your parents were less generous? Please.
 
2012-06-14 06:17:58 PM

DamnYankees: Yes, when they don't need you anymore. But the job of the parent is not to cut the child off at their time of choosing. It's the job of the child, once able, to say "I can do it on my own now".


Parents are not a resource trough for their adult children. The attitude that you stop blindly giving when the child decides it's time is a good part of what is contributing to the extended adolescence (into their 20s) of modern Americans.
 
2012-06-14 06:19:50 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: DamnYankees: Yes, when they don't need you anymore. But the job of the parent is not to cut the child off at their time of choosing. It's the job of the child, once able, to say "I can do it on my own now".

Parents are not a resource trough for their adult children. The attitude that you stop blindly giving when the child decides it's time is a good part of what is contributing to the extended adolescence (into their 20s) of modern Americans.


No, it's really not. Are you just making this up?
 
2012-06-14 06:23:21 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: DamnYankees: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: I don't see how that's assholish. I don't know where it became law that parents need to pay for their kids' college. I certainly never had any help with my college stuff other than free room and board while I was doing my 2 years at CC.

It's not a "law", but if you have the means to support your child's education and you choose not to, I don't know what else to say. The fact that you weren't helped doesn't mean you need to pass on that privation to your kids.

I don't really think that's entirely true. I certainly

like to believe I tried harder and appreciated what I was able to accomplish much more than the folks who had their parents pay for everything seemed to, I can tell you that.

ftfy
 
2012-06-14 06:25:46 PM

DamnYankees: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: DamnYankees: Yes, when they don't need you anymore. But the job of the parent is not to cut the child off at their time of choosing. It's the job of the child, once able, to say "I can do it on my own now".

Parents are not a resource trough for their adult children. The attitude that you stop blindly giving when the child decides it's time is a good part of what is contributing to the extended adolescence (into their 20s) of modern Americans.

No, it's really not. Are you just making this up?


You're kidding, right? Do you really think that "someone else pays for it all" isn't significantly affecting the pace at which children become independent? Sure, there are the occasional traditionally aged college folks who will be diligent even if everything is paid for, because they're Type A's or they've been brought up with a sense of responsibility, but I can tell you from experience (and anyone honest who has been to a traditional 4-year will back this up) those people are rare.
 
2012-06-14 06:31:19 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Do you really think that "someone else pays for it all" isn't significantly affecting the pace at which children become independent?


No, I really don't. I think the reason its becoming rare for children to become independent is because its exceptionally hard for people to find jobs. Unless you can show me some evidence that people with strong family financial support are actually *less* productive and *more* lazy than people without it, I reject your thesis.
 
2012-06-14 06:36:18 PM

DamnYankees: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Do you really think that "someone else pays for it all" isn't significantly affecting the pace at which children become independent?

No, I really don't. I think the reason its becoming rare for children to become independent is because its exceptionally hard for people to find jobs. Unless you can show me some evidence that people with strong family financial support are actually *less* productive and *more* lazy than people without it, I reject your thesis.


This trend has been going on for much longer than the last few years, seeing as I went to college in the 90s.
 
2012-06-14 06:37:33 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: DamnYankees: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Do you really think that "someone else pays for it all" isn't significantly affecting the pace at which children become independent?

No, I really don't. I think the reason its becoming rare for children to become independent is because its exceptionally hard for people to find jobs. Unless you can show me some evidence that people with strong family financial support are actually *less* productive and *more* lazy than people without it, I reject your thesis.

This trend has been going on for much longer than the last few years, seeing as I went to college in the 90s.


I'll believe it if you show me evidence.
 
2012-06-14 06:44:35 PM

DamnYankees: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: DamnYankees: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Do you really think that "someone else pays for it all" isn't significantly affecting the pace at which children become independent?

No, I really don't. I think the reason its becoming rare for children to become independent is because its exceptionally hard for people to find jobs. Unless you can show me some evidence that people with strong family financial support are actually *less* productive and *more* lazy than people without it, I reject your thesis.

This trend has been going on for much longer than the last few years, seeing as I went to college in the 90s.

I'll believe it if you show me evidence.


You're going to be disappointed, I guess. But you're set in the idea that paying someone's way is actually doing them a favor, so nothing would change your mind, anyway.
 
2012-06-14 06:49:37 PM

DamnYankees: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: DamnYankees: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Do you really think that "someone else pays for it all" isn't significantly affecting the pace at which children become independent?

No, I really don't. I think the reason its becoming rare for children to become independent is because its exceptionally hard for people to find jobs. Unless you can show me some evidence that people with strong family financial support are actually *less* productive and *more* lazy than people without it, I reject your thesis.

This trend has been going on for much longer than the last few years, seeing as I went to college in the 90s.

I'll believe it if you show me evidence.


What evidence do you need? It's been going on, quite literally, for all of human existence. And by "it", I mean people's tendency to believe that they work harder than everyone else around them, that their circumstances are what it takes to bring out the best in people and that the younger generations are all shiftless layabouts that just need the same kind of a kick in the butt that they got when they were that age.
 
2012-06-14 06:52:46 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: You're going to be disappointed, I guess. But you're set in the idea that paying someone's way is actually doing them a favor, so nothing would change your mind, anyway.


I've asked for evidence. You don't have any and then simply assert my mind can't be changed. How do you expect me to react to your assertions with absolutely nothing to back them up?
 
2012-06-14 06:53:21 PM

timujin: DamnYankees: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: DamnYankees: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Do you really think that "someone else pays for it all" isn't significantly affecting the pace at which children become independent?

No, I really don't. I think the reason its becoming rare for children to become independent is because its exceptionally hard for people to find jobs. Unless you can show me some evidence that people with strong family financial support are actually *less* productive and *more* lazy than people without it, I reject your thesis.

This trend has been going on for much longer than the last few years, seeing as I went to college in the 90s.

I'll believe it if you show me evidence.

What evidence do you need? It's been going on, quite literally, for all of human existence. And by "it", I mean people's tendency to believe that they work harder than everyone else around them, that their circumstances are what it takes to bring out the best in people and that the younger generations are all shiftless layabouts that just need the same kind of a kick in the butt that they got when they were that age.


I see what you did there.
 
2012-06-14 07:03:37 PM

timujin: What evidence do you need? It's been going on, quite literally, for all of human existence. And by "it", I mean people's tendency to believe that they work harder than everyone else around them, that their circumstances are what it takes to bring out the best in people and that the younger generations are all shiftless layabouts that just need the same kind of a kick in the butt that they got when they were that age.


Nah, there were plenty of people who worked way harder than me. But of the people I did work harder than, the majority of them were not paying their own way (nor were they merit scholars).
 
2012-06-14 07:07:38 PM

downstairs: Majick Thise: I would tell them that until they either A) They give me the info I need or B) They take me to court, they can C) fark Right Off

Can't you just not pay a loan if they can't produce the documents, and not get in legal trouble?


In my state yes but that might differ from state to state. Without all the proper docs they would get laughed out of a courtroom. (me)"Yes Your Honor, I would be happy to pay this bill if only they can prove that I owe it" (them) "um.... " {crickets} (Judge) "Fark Right Off"

Which is likely why they would continue to hound this person rather than actually go to court. Of course, as has been mentioned, there is probably more to this than we have heard.
 
2012-06-14 07:22:13 PM
easy enough to fix
judge: how much is owed on the loan and who current owns the loan
lawyer tard: we dont know
judge: debt is decreased to amount paid - all loans are paid in full. come back to my court again and I will have you shot. in fact, you have to pay the defendants lawyer fees. treble. now go away before I have you publicly flogged.
ballif: mutter mutter mutter
judge: what do you mean I cant have him flogged???
 
2012-06-14 07:40:33 PM

bdub77: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: doglover: bdub77: And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA H HAHA


Oh wow. You're a riot. Good luck with that.

Yeah. Even at a state college, working on the side isn't going to make much of a dent in the 2 years on the community college side. Student would be better off concentrating on their studies.

I paid room and board and living expenses for 3 years of college. My parents paid a small part of tuition and the rest were student loans I picked up and paid off.

And I don't consider myself an ass for wanting to make my kid responsible. Again, best laid plans. There's no saying what will happen in the future, but that's what I plan to do. I think college is worth it now, but in the future who knows?

Personally I think it's hilarious that everyone wants to entitle their kid to everything. Good luck with that.


You're just insane for not paying attention to the price increases in tuition and huge student loan crisis.

If you think your kid'll get enough money to go to college on his own credit score at 18, you're going to up the creek.

My advice, do your plan to the kid, but start saving NOW so you can pay his way anyways. Worst case scenario: you wind up with an extra $300,000 or something.
 
2012-06-14 08:05:52 PM

Majick Thise: In my state yes but that might differ from state to state. Without all the proper docs they would get laughed out of a courtroom. (me)"Yes Your Honor, I would be happy to pay this bill if only they can prove that I owe it" (them) "um.... " {crickets} (Judge) "Fark Right Off"


"I have the money for your payment, but, I can't reveal the location of the check."
 
2012-06-14 08:18:59 PM
If dad didn't co-sign, well good luck with that.
 
2012-06-14 08:25:03 PM
Kind of hard to be outraged. Sure, banks are crooks and private loans are pretty pricey but why didn't the kid get a federal loan? Did he have a drug conviction? Why did the dad co-sign for a private loan? This is like being mad at an US Bank building's shadow covering the area you planted your new garden in.
 
2012-06-14 08:27:01 PM

doglover: .

You're just insane for not paying attention to the price increases in tuition and huge student loan crisis.

If you think your kid'll get enough money to go to college on his own credit score at 18, you're going to up the creek.

My advice, do your plan to the kid, but start saving NOW so you can pay his way anyways. Worst case scenario: you wind up with an extra $300,000 or something.


Well she'll be 20 and I plan to make sure she has some credit history by then. And trust me, I know what you're saying. But we'll see where we are then and adjust accordingly.

I consider myself lucky, I had a good education and my family certainly helped me. But I made several financial mistakes, and I attribute some of that to not being properly educated on financial responsibility. I don't plan to make that mistake with my children. And I found the more independent my parents made me, the more responsible I became monetarily. I learned to live with less. And yes college kids are irresponsible dipshiats, I know from personal experience, having been one.

The student loan crisis is caused by the exploding costs of students going to a four-year college, getting a shiat degree, and then not being able to get a job due to the recession. The exploding cost has a lot of factors, but there's a bubble there. Either way, this is making payment for those loans worse. By going the CC route you avoid the major costs of university. I don't even really advocate going to college if you aren't planning to do something in STEM, but I'm certainly not going to force my kid to choose that path, just nudge them a bit. They can forego college to if they are so inclined.

Besides, who's to say I'd even be able to afford the full cost of college by the time my kid is 20?
 
2012-06-14 08:28:00 PM
Doesn't the FCRA apply here? I know my wife is one of thousands in a class action against Freddy Mac for this type of BS. His "lawyer" should be getting ready for the arse farking sans lube.
 
2012-06-14 08:29:13 PM
NO bill no money.
 
2012-06-14 08:31:09 PM
Something missing in that story. ANY collection agency asking for money knows exactly how much is owed, and who it is owed to. If they can't tell you that, you owe nothing, tell them to fark off.

And, "all the companies" who have contacted him? Debt does get sold, but not every week, so who are all these companies calling him? A student loan might get bundled and sold, but it isn't divided up amongst different companies. One debt, one creditor, one debt collector.

Don't know what's happening here.
 
2012-06-14 08:31:35 PM
Suck? Yeah. But reality.

Only problem I see is that he "hasn't been able to get a handle on just how large the loan is, or even who currently holds the loan."

Seems to me that ought to be simpler than they make it sound:

"I would tell them to call the lawyer," he tell ProPublica. "And they would still say, 'The lawyer doesn't owe us. You're the one who owes us. You're the one who has to pay us.'"

"Yeah, to do that I kinda need to know who the fark you are and how much I supposedly farking owe you. Mind sending me a bill, jackass?"
 
2012-06-14 08:32:03 PM
My offspring education plan is:

1. get the kids out of the house at 18.
2. who the hell cares what they do then?
3. use all my newly available money to buy a nice, nice car.

I don't think that's too much to ask, after all they should be glad I'm not sending them a bill for the many many thousands it cost to raise them to the age of majority. Besides, getting some dirt under their fingernails will do them a world of good.

Rarr!
 
2012-06-14 08:33:06 PM
Cosigned the loan?
No story here, no imaginary butthurt.
Life is hard. Default or pay up, take your pick.
 
2012-06-14 08:33:27 PM
The easiest thing to do.

Father: I don't dispute that I co-signed on a student loan but until you provide me with proper accounting of the balance owed and the current and correct holder of this note you will not be recieving any money nor any further communication from me. You may mail said full accounting of the charges to P.O. Box....

OR better yet. Father: I am invoking my rights under the FAIR DEBT COLLECTION ACT to refuse further telephone calls and wish to be contacted only by mail at P.O. Box....any further calls to me, my family members, employer etc...will be considered a violation of my rights and I will sue you for each count of violating my rights. I will be recording all my calls so you have been informed, please make a not of this in my file.

Then do it! How hard is this people? Collection companies are like 7th graders who can't shut up and have to have the last word. They will call.
 
2012-06-14 08:34:24 PM

what_now: The loan's current servicer - ACS Education Services - is obligated to reveal this amount, but the father is having trouble getting the truth out of the company, a subsidiary of Xerox.

Bullshiat. There are some servicers that are shady. This isn't one of them. The father probably doesn't have the students account number, SSN, ID number etc.

There's an awful lot missing out of this story.


THIS. I've had a lot of trouble with Sallie Mae, but I have absolutely NO complaints about ACS. They have been absolutely amazing to me. Just bulletproof customer service.
 
2012-06-14 08:34:36 PM
And people think that we moved out of Feudalism.

Capitalism is just feudalism with a mobile serf class.
 
2012-06-14 08:36:25 PM

bdub77: downstairs: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

But he's going to need a loan at some point, and they're not going to give him one unless you co-sign. So your plan will fail to get him into anything beyond community college.

Federal student loans don't require a cosigner, just private ones. With any luck, they'll still be around. :) And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.


You may want to take a look at the cost of college...before you have children.
The sort of temp job someone can get while going to cc/2 year school is going to hover in the min wage category.
 
2012-06-14 08:36:36 PM
This story makes absolutely no sense.

If it's entirely true, he has a really bad lawyer.
 
2012-06-14 08:37:57 PM
Because he co-signed on his son's loan, he is now fully liable for the total loan amount.
Contracts are not nice. You should carefully consider all possibilities before signing one. I wonder, was the extra $8 a month for life insurance too cover the loan just too damn much?
 
2012-06-14 08:39:24 PM
There seems to be some sort of argument going on here that I don't feel like wading through, but I'll add that I was able to get a private loan to pay for my entire final year of college without a co-signer, and I would have been 21 at the time. And this is was a big ten university, so we're talking about $12,000 for that loan.

And before you ask what the hell I was thinking, it was the only way I could afford to finish. A lot of other resources that were previously available to someone who came from a low-income family but had high grades, dried up due to this little recession thing that happened around that same time in 2008. Kinda shiatty timing, really. You start getting ready for your final year of college, then the economy tanks, suddenly you're responsible for 100% of tuition, so you put yourself into debt, and graduate into a world with no farking jobs. Thanks a lot, America.
 
2012-06-14 08:39:28 PM
All this nonsense about who owns the loan must be annoying, and the behaviour of the collection agency is (duh) disgusting.. but the basic fact he owes it.. well what did he think 'co-signer' meant?

Probably get it canned though if his lawyer is any good.
 
2012-06-14 08:41:48 PM
I went old school- saved money over summer vacation, applied for $1K low gov loan (seemed like a lot at the time) with mom's co-signature, then applied for all the work study money i could get. Once school started I tossed pizzas and assembled subs when i wasn't engaged in one of 3 work study programs I signed up for. Free movies (projectionist), free music and concerts (90.1 WMPG FM, broadcasting in 10 mono-fkng watts of alternative music pumping power), and a short lived stint in graphic arts laying out upcoming events about campus. When i needed beer money, I collected bottles and cans (college dorm rat- not too difficult here) throughout the week or hung out at frats playing foosball for beer on the weekends. Summer was spent working full time plus with two jobs. worked hard, played cheap.

Ran up an incredible tab of a little more than $3k over 2.5 years of school. Military helped me fill in the gaps for an electronics degree 10 years later.

Ya just gotta be determined, self-disciplined and a little creative.
 
2012-06-14 08:42:03 PM

Moodybastard: bdub77: downstairs: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

But he's going to need a loan at some point, and they're not going to give him one unless you co-sign. So your plan will fail to get him into anything beyond community college.

Federal student loans don't require a cosigner, just private ones. With any luck, they'll still be around. :) And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.

You may want to take a look at the cost of college...before you have children.
The sort of temp job someone can get while going to cc/2 year school is going to hover in the min wage category.


Granted I had an $11/hr job with a good amount of overtime, but I paid my way through community college (after basically shiatting the bed after my first degree several years ago). I also had most of my basic credits (English/math/science) so I just had to work around my major classes which were almost all in the mornings. This was along with my apartment, food, bills, etc. Whenever I have kids, I'll probably have them pay their way through CC and see how that goes. If they make it through with solid grades, I'll help them continue. If not, well the world needs ditch diggers.
 
2012-06-14 08:42:38 PM
Sorry- 1982-84
 
2012-06-14 08:42:46 PM
Debt collectors have to obey the Fair Debt. Collection Protection Act
Link
 
2012-06-14 08:43:01 PM

DamnYankees: I don't know about you, but where I come from there this thing called "family". It means you help each other out, inter-generationally. My grandparents did what they could to help my parents get a good education in life. My parents helped my brothers and I. And in return, I will help my children. And on the flip side, when needed, my parents help out my grandparents in their old age, I will help out my parents in their old age, and I hope my children will help me in mine.


This "family" sounds pretty socialistic to me.

/ I kid
 
2012-06-14 08:43:45 PM
It should be illegal for a debtor to be required to pay more than the current owner of a loan paid to acquire it plus interest since. Selling a loan for less than the amount owed should be considered forgiveness of the difference. If the original lender wants to collect the full amount then they should have to hang onto the loan.
 
2012-06-14 08:44:33 PM

GT_bike: The easiest thing to do.

Father: I don't dispute that I co-signed on a student loan but until you provide me with proper accounting of the balance owed and the current and correct holder of this note you will not be recieving any money nor any further communication from me. You may mail said full accounting of the charges to P.O. Box....

OR better yet. Father: I am invoking my rights under the FAIR DEBT COLLECTION ACT to refuse further telephone calls and wish to be contacted only by mail at P.O. Box....any further calls to me, my family members, employer etc...will be considered a violation of my rights and I will sue you for each count of violating my rights. I will be recording all my calls so you have been informed, please make a not of this in my file.

Then do it! How hard is this people? Collection companies are like 7th graders who can't shut up and have to have the last word. They will call.


This. Collection agencies act like thugs because they know they can get away with it. Some of the things they can't do are: Call you before 8 a.m or after 9 p.m. your time (NOT theirs); they can't tell you you will go to prison if you don't pay; they can't threaten to get a judgment against you--only a JUDGE can do that. They're not even supposed to be unpleasant on the phone (as in "Look, you borrowed our money, so you better pay us back! I know you have money, or have family, so if you don't pay us we'll go after them!") And unlike cops, they are not allowed to lie to you.

If you want a low-cost way to get them off your back, take the last bill they sent you and send it back to them with what GT_bike said, but be sure to add the words "cease and desist." You don't even have to threaten to sue them: "Cease and desist" is legal code for saying "I'm about to lawyer up." Make a copy for yourself, and then mail it straight to the collections agency. The mailing is enough for notice, although if they're being really awful, send it certified so they can't claim they never got it.

But be sure to follow through. If they call you again, make a recording of it, and the time and day they called, and then contact either an attorney or the Better Business Bureau. It usually works. I sent such a letter off to a bothersome creditor, and not only did they stop calling, I haven't heard from them since. Hell, I even threatened Sallie Mae with a cease and desist letter--the calls stopped within 24 hours.
 
2012-06-14 08:45:13 PM

GT_bike: OR better yet. Father: I am invoking my rights under the FAIR DEBT COLLECTION ACT to refuse further telephone calls and wish to be contacted only by mail at P.O. Box....any further calls to me, my family members, employer etc...will be considered a violation of my rights and I will sue you for each count of violating my rights. I will be recording all my calls so you have been informed, please make a not of this in my file.


Just to clarify, under the Fair Debt Collections Act, requests to cease collection calls have to be submitted in writing. Just didn't want anyone reading this to think they were going to get the calls to stop just by reading this to an agent over the phone.
 
2012-06-14 08:45:45 PM
What I've always read with regard to saving for your child's college expenses is as follows:

1) Don't save for their college.
2) Fund your own retirement as much as possible, maybe they won't go to college.
3) Pay down the mortgage as much as possible, maybe they won't go to college.
4) Take out a new loan on the house to cover that which grants, scholarships, etc don't cover, if they do chose to go to college and all the other various forms of non-private student aid/loans don't cover it all.

Retirement funds are NOT considered in the calculation of financial need. The poorer you look, the more "free" financial aid you get (grants, needs based scholarships, etc.). The parents are considered contributing to the offspring's education EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT, so you might as well make it easier for you to get some aid and then pick up the rest through other means.
 
2012-06-14 08:47:54 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: bdub77: downstairs: bdub77:

Correct. Federal student loans, which are pretty easy to get, do not require a parental co-signer.

If you don't want to be on the hook for a loan if worse comes to worst, then don't co-sign.


I had loans in 1992. Parents not needed as a co-signer except for a private loan. What there was then and still is around are Federal DirectPLUS loans, where the parents get their own loan to apply towards tuition and whatnot.DirectPLUS definitions
 
2012-06-14 08:49:36 PM

namatad: easy enough to fix
judge: how much is owed on the loan and who current owns the loan
lawyer tard: we dont know
judge: debt is decreased to amount paid - all loans are paid in full. come back to my court again and I will have you shot. in fact, you have to pay the defendants lawyer fees. treble. now go away before I have you publicly flogged.
ballif: mutter mutter mutter
judge: what do you mean I cant have him flogged???


Some years back a friend had taken out a large loan (not a student loan) and about a year later the industry (tech) went into the shiatter and he became unemployed. Eventually some shady collection company took him to court. Basically, the shyster loan-shark company tried to argue that my friend had taken out the loan for purposes of fraud. My friend produced the documents and correspondences showing him attempting to work out a payment plan that he could afford with his vastly reduced income and the loan-shark's response of "fark that, give us our money!" The judge chewed the shyster a new asshole. I don't remember the exact settlement, but it did involve much wailing and gnashing of teeth on the part of the loan-sharks. The shadier collection agencies do everything they can to avoid reasonable settlements in hopes of coming up with a big cash payoff. Judges frown on those shennanigans.
 
2012-06-14 08:51:02 PM
There are still many unanswered questions in this story. Has the man EVER made a single payment? If he has he could see who cashed the check, and would know who holds the loan. But it sounds like the moment the bills came after his son died, he just told them over and over his son was dead and then hired an attorney. And while it *is* a hassle, anyone who co-signs a loan for *anyone* should assume right then that they will be responsible. They are relying heavily on the angle "he didn't get to use the education this money was used for" but.... if you buy a car and never drive it, are they going to care when they want their payment? No way... And why isn't the 18-year-old daughter working?
Just have a hard time sympathizing, guess I'm just heartless.
 
2012-06-14 08:52:38 PM
i246.photobucket.com
No more freeloading dead kids!
/hot
 
2012-06-14 08:53:53 PM
TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: I don't see how that's assholish.

Did you miss the part of TFA where the parent is trying to find out who actually holds the loans to see if the lenders are willing to forgive, but nobody can tell him? The part where even his lawyer can't figure it out? The part where the debt collectors who can't tell him these things keep harassing him directly in contravention of the law?

Attitudes like yours astonish and baffle me as a human being. The guy just wants to ask his lenders if they'll forgive the loans since his son died but can't because they've repackaged and resold them so often nobody seems to know anymore who actually has what parts of them, and you don't understand why only an asshole would blame him for co-signing a loan for his son to go to college? That's just... that's just horrifyingly telling about how dehumanized this entire country has become. Signing a simple lending contract means whatever crazy things happen without your knowledge behind the scenes are your own fault? Really?

And you know what? Call me up and start demanding money for a loan you bought when you can't tell me who the lender was? Go for it. I'm old and I don't have kids so I have lots of expendable income and I will bury your shiatty little fly-by-night debt collector operation in a flurry of $75-per-filing small court claims for every call I get. I will drag your ass into every proceeding. I will waste so much of your time and money on them that you lose money because of your arrogance and ignorance. I have no problem honoring my obligations, but call me up out of the blue and just start demanding money and I will go out of my way to utterly skullfark you and your little shakedown business just for the sake of it.
 
2012-06-14 08:54:24 PM
My wife did an income based loan repayment plan with Sally Mae who owns the loan. Is it possible for him to do something similar? I feel bad for the guy, I can't imagine his loss.
 
2012-06-14 08:55:02 PM

Nem Wan: It should be illegal for a debtor to be required to pay more than the current owner of a loan paid to acquire it plus interest since. Selling a loan for less than the amount owed should be considered forgiveness of the difference. If the original lender wants to collect the full amount then they should have to hang onto the loan.


clearly you've never fallen behind with your bookie.
 
2012-06-14 08:55:53 PM

Moodybastard: You may want to take a look at the cost of college...before you have children.
The sort of temp job someone can get while going to cc/2 year school is going to hover in the min wage category.


Not to mention (at least here in WI) CC credits have an exchange rate to four year schools similar to our dollars to Zimbabwean dollars.
 
2012-06-14 08:56:00 PM

bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.


I can't believe you're getting hate for this. It seems perfectly reasonable.

I *would* have a little extra socked away that I didn't tell the kid about. If he's making good progress in school and living cheaply there still might be a point where he needs a little extra to make ends meet. And if he doesn't, then you'll have a little extra for retirement.
 
2012-06-14 08:56:42 PM

bdub77: And I don't consider myself an ass for wanting to make my kid responsible. Again, best laid plans. There's no saying what will happen in the future, but that's what I plan to do. I think college is worth it now, but in the future who knows?

Personally I think it's hilarious that everyone wants to entitle their kid to everything. Good luck with that.



You don't "make" your child responsible. Either you teach it or you don't. If that's your plan then you're basically forcing them into a situation where, to succeed, they must be responsible. Like "teaching" your child to swim by chucking them out of a boat and then telling them to swim to shore. It's not a great method and it's one with very little margin for error.

Then again you want your child to get a 4 year degree but you want them to spend half of it in a 3rd tier institution and spend half of their time at that institution working on the side. A poor plan since they'll need to work harder to do well at the community college level and instead of focusing on studying they'll be splitting time between studies and menial jobs. Reminds me of the saying "a jack of all trades but a master of none."
 
2012-06-14 08:56:45 PM

rengav:
Retirement funds are NOT considered in the calculation of financial need. The poorer you look, the more "free" financial aid you get (grants, needs based scholarships, etc.). The parents are considered contributing to the offspring's education EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT, so you might as well make it easier for you to get some aid and then pick up the rest through other means.


Oddly though, they still consider EFC or Estimated Family Contributions when crunching all the numbers. Even if your parents are gone (mine aren't happily) or on any form of public or retirement assistance it's on the forms to get grant and scholarship money. It takes a little off the top even if contributions don't, or can't exist. Found that out about a year ago
 
2012-06-14 08:57:23 PM
She said that don't confront me, long as I get my money next Friday
 
2012-06-14 08:57:54 PM

Nem Wan: It should be illegal for a debtor to be required to pay more than the current owner of a loan paid to acquire it plus interest since. Selling a loan for less than the amount owed should be considered forgiveness of the difference. If the original lender wants to collect the full amount then they should have to hang onto the loan.


So you're not familiar with concepts like the time value of money, interest risk or duration risk I see...
 
2012-06-14 08:59:02 PM

downstairs: what_now: Bullshiat. There are some servicers that are shady. This isn't one of them. The father probably doesn't have the students account number, SSN, ID number etc.

There's an awful lot missing out of this story.

Welcome to "The Consumerist!"


Pretty much. The National Enquirer of consumer websites.
 
2012-06-14 09:00:03 PM
Subby: Cosigning on the loan means it is the father's loan, not just the kid's.

Why do some people think paying back debt is optional?
 
2012-06-14 09:01:36 PM
It's different up here in Canada...CSB

If you are not a mature student, your parents' financial situation factors in to how much of a goverment loan you can get. Because my mom had some inheritance money (as well as money they saved) put away for retirement, they wouldn't even give me a loan to cover my tuition. Their attitude was, your parents have the money saved, they will have to cash in their retirement savings, pay all the penalties and pay for my tuition. Well, I was NOT going to let that happen. The only way I was able to go to school was get a private loan through my bank and they didn't ask me to co-sign because I already had some credit built up with them. Paid it all off myself

//rules recently changed, I hear. Hopefully this shiat doesn't happen anymore and government loans are more accessible to everyone
 
2012-06-14 09:04:09 PM

bdub77: And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.


Uh, the kid's DEAD. Try and keep up...

// Where's the DUMB button when you need it?

/// And an UNFUNNY button?

//// One of these days I'm gonna add those buttons to my sucky blog
 
2012-06-14 09:04:59 PM

ArkAngel: what_now: ArkAngel: 93% of all student loans are federal

Man, I wish I wasn't leaving my office right now.

That statistic is absurd. No offense man, but private student lending is a multi billion dollar industry.

And when there are a trillion dollars in loans, you can have the feds doling out 93% and still have a multi-billion dollar private industry.

Link
Link
Link


Dude, those links are nice and all but the big picture is much bigger and complicated, both in size and by year, and by degree. Stafford loans, subsidized & unsubsidized by the gov't have been around a long time for undergrad & grad, I don't believe there needed to be a co-signor, but the loans covered relatively little (like less than half) of most tuition fees, not including housing, food, books, insurance, etc.

All undergrad gov't PLUS loans (ie, the loans that paid for the other half of tuition plus housing etc etc) needed a parent co-signor. BUT, I think since they were gov't loans, they were terminated when/if the primary beneficiary died.

For Grad school, before July 2006, anything above stafford was PRIVATE ONLY, ie, super fark-job terms, like no co-signor = double the rate and no termination of loan upon primary beneficiaries death. Sometime in 2006 somebody in Congress smelled the next bubble bursting and somehow GradPLUS loans were made available to grad students without a co-signor.

So basically, as I understand it, no one should ever be taking out anything but Fed loans (Stafford/Perkins/PLUS/GradPlus) at this point, if for no other reason than dischargeability in death. But that option is only 6 years old. And if there is NO option of a co-signor, Privates may be someones only undergrad option, but then again, that means death means no possible recourse for the privates.

Also also, Stafford & PLUS loans now qualify for IBR (Income based repayment), so even if you make minimum wage, you pay off on a graduated scale that terminates after 25 years. That has only been available since 2008ish.

Basically, if you play your cards right, you currently can be saddled with a shiat load of gov't debt, but it is at least dischargeable in death or after 25 years of indentured servitude. Borrowers before 2006 are screwed with private debt terms, and no dischargeability in death.

So also also also, this crap is a maze, and if anyone in the middle is on the take, it is easy as hell to go down the 'wrong' path.

/I feel bad for this guy
//lost his son
///and likely didn't have the understanding or resources to navigate the BS loan system
 
2012-06-14 09:05:23 PM
I gotta say, I don't understand the bdub77 hate. That's exactly how I got through school.

My folks helped out for two years, and then I was on my own. I worked, lived off campus and paid my own rent, bought my own food, and paid as much tuition as I could. I definitely needed loans to help me through it, but not a ridiculous amount, and they were all Federal. I even went abroad for a semester and took out a loan for my living expenses since I couldn't work there. Still graduated with less than 15k in loans. Now, this was a state college, so tuition wasn't outrageous, but still. It worked out fine for me. I even have a job in my field.
 
2012-06-14 09:05:31 PM

Splinshints: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: I don't see how that's assholish.


I think you need to go back and read exactly what it was that I was replying to, because you're clearly very confused.
 
2012-06-14 09:06:11 PM
The Fair Debt Practices Act says the company must show that the consumer owes the payment and how MUCH they owe. Otherwise it's null. For good measure I would pay them maybe $5 a month just to show you have been paying in good faith and just in case they miraculously come up with the paperwork. Or you sue them for repeatedly calling the father instead of the lawyer. That's a violation of the Act too. That said, the school should have great records on how they were paid, by whom, and how much.
 
2012-06-14 09:06:21 PM

what_now: There's an awful lot missing out of this story.


Given the source, I think that goes without saying.
 
2012-06-14 09:06:30 PM

Nem Wan: It should be illegal for a debtor to be required to pay more than the current owner of a loan paid to acquire it plus interest since. Selling a loan for less than the amount owed should be considered forgiveness of the difference. If the original lender wants to collect the full amount then they should have to hang onto the loan.


Eh? The loan is a note that has value. Just like a dollar bill is a note that has value. If I give someone a dollar bill in exchange for 50 cents. That doesn't mean his dollar bill is now worth only 50 cents.
 
2012-06-14 09:07:19 PM

Krieghund: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

I can't believe you're getting hate for this. It seems perfectly reasonable.

I *would* have a little extra socked away that I didn't tell the kid about. If he's making good progress in school and living cheaply there still might be a point where he needs a little extra to make ends meet. And if he doesn't, then you'll have a little extra for retirement.


I get the hate. What I said didn't have a lot of tact. To clarify, I actually feel bad for these parents. I think what the collection agencies are doing to these people sucks, and I feel bad for him and his family. But there are solutions to the debt collection agencies, and I've never had problems getting information about what money was owed or getting debt collection agencies off my back through negotiation and some phone calls.

He is, however, responsible for those debts. He cosigned the loan. He certainly didn't think his kid was going to die, and I can only imagine how awful it is to lose a son. But people should understand what cosigning means. I know people who have cosigned for others just to be screwed by the person receiving the benefits of that loan.
 
2012-06-14 09:08:02 PM

Serious Post on Serious Thread: For Grad school, before July 2006, anything above stafford was PRIVATE ONLY, ie, super fark-job terms, like no co-signor = double the rate and no termination of loan upon primary beneficiaries death. Sometime in 2006 somebody in Congress smelled the next bubble bursting and somehow GradPLUS loans were made available to grad students without a co-signor.


The Federal limits on Stafford loans for graduate school are very high. Plus, if you're going to graduate school (and not getting a terminal masters) without a teaching or research assistant fellowship you are doing it really wrong.
 
2012-06-14 09:08:03 PM
I got monster aid in college because my family was poor. Pell Grants, Scholarships, workstudy, etc. Workstudy just paid for books and spending money. Towards the end the Pell Grants went away but I got crazy low loans, granted it was only a few thousand bucks (this was the late 80s/early 90s). Worked hard over the summers and paid it down within 5 years of finishing school.

Architecture school was 100% paid for by my employer. I made mediocre/livable wages, but my employer paid for all expenses except books and materials as long as the GPA was 3.0 or higher.

After working 16 years in the industry, I found myself unemployed in the economic crash, got a volunteer gig at a large-ish university, and then a paid staff position. Now I get free tuition, although I have to pay the fees.

Total education debt: $0.00

It can be done today, but I had to dodge and weave to get my education paid for. Granted, it's a lot more expensive today than it was before, but still - there are a lot of options. These people who whine about their crushing student debt should be slapped for their poor choices and lack of creativity.

Or maybe *gasp* they should consider if a college education is really a good investment. The world certainly doesn't need any more Liberal Artists.
 
2012-06-14 09:09:04 PM

fanbladesaresharp: rengav:
Retirement funds are NOT considered in the calculation of financial need. The poorer you look, the more "free" financial aid you get (grants, needs based scholarships, etc.). The parents are considered contributing to the offspring's education EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT, so you might as well make it easier for you to get some aid and then pick up the rest through other means.

Oddly though, they still consider EFC or Estimated Family Contributions when crunching all the numbers. Even if your parents are gone (mine aren't happily) or on any form of public or retirement assistance it's on the forms to get grant and scholarship money. It takes a little off the top even if contributions don't, or can't exist. Found that out about a year ago


Yes, well if your parents are drawing on their retirement funds, then that is considered income, but if they are still working and putting money away, the value of the retirement fund is not considered a liquid asset.
 
2012-06-14 09:10:00 PM

GT_bike: OR better yet. Father: I am invoking my rights under the FAIR DEBT COLLECTION ACT to refuse further telephone calls and wish to be contacted only by mail at P.O. Box....any further calls to me, my family members, employer etc...will be considered a violation of my rights and I will sue you for each count of violating my rights. I will be recording all my calls so you have been informed, please make a not of this in my file.

Then do it! How hard is this people? Collection companies are like 7th graders who can't shut up and have to have the last word. They will call.


That's nice in theory. Unfortunately, the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act doesn't apply the same way to student loans. You get less protection in general.
 
2012-06-14 09:10:15 PM

Macular Degenerate: Or maybe *gasp* they should consider if a college education is really a good investment. The world certainly doesn't need any more Liberal Artists.


I'd disagree, I think it needs *more* folks with liberal arts degrees, because, currently, the folks getting business / industry degrees seem to almost entirely lack any concepts of culture or critical thought.

Varies with folks who have science degrees.

Macular Degenerate: It can be done today, but I had to dodge and weave to get my education paid for. Granted, it's a lot more expensive today than it was before, but still - there are a lot of options. These people who whine about their crushing student debt should be slapped for their poor choices and lack of creativity.


I don't think there's anyone who doesn't think the system could and should be less complicated.
 
2012-06-14 09:12:42 PM
Declare bankruptcy.

Problem solved.
 
2012-06-14 09:13:15 PM

Klom Dark: [...] my sucky blog


OH MY GAWD, MY EYEZ!
 
2012-06-14 09:14:30 PM
Also, tuition inflation has outstripped regular inflation by some insane margin (5-1, use your google biatches) in the last 25 years. And really went nuts about 10 years ago.

So anybody who has not paid tuition in the past 5 years should STFU and GTFO.

Your bootstrappy BS is irrelevant.

STUDENT NOW=FML
 
2012-06-14 09:14:31 PM

silverjets: Declare bankruptcy.

Problem solved.


Student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy.
 
2012-06-14 09:16:10 PM

JK47: bdub77: And I don't consider myself an ass for wanting to make my kid responsible. Again, best laid plans. There's no saying what will happen in the future, but that's what I plan to do. I think college is worth it now, but in the future who knows?

Personally I think it's hilarious that everyone wants to entitle their kid to everything. Good luck with that.


You don't "make" your child responsible. Either you teach it or you don't. If that's your plan then you're basically forcing them into a situation where, to succeed, they must be responsible. Like "teaching" your child to swim by chucking them out of a boat and then telling them to swim to shore. It's not a great method and it's one with very little margin for error.

Then again you want your child to get a 4 year degree but you want them to spend half of it in a 3rd tier institution and spend half of their time at that institution working on the side. A poor plan since they'll need to work harder to do well at the community college level and instead of focusing on studying they'll be splitting time between studies and menial jobs. Reminds me of the saying "a jack of all trades but a master of none."


Oh please. What teenager listens to their farking parents? Kids either learn it or they don't. And even if it could be taught, it doesn't apply to everyone. And they certainly learn what independence is through the experience, not being told 'hey if you don't pay the loan your credit history will create problems in your future' because at that age it's in one ear out the other - and kids have their own minds about things. Not every kid, mind you. But many of them.

I worked 30 hours a week while getting good grades in college. My way was to be in charge of a computer lab, which meant I could work on homework while earning money, although for a long time I was working late shifts at an italian restaurant. I don't understand how people think they can't do both college and menial jobs.
 
2012-06-14 09:17:57 PM

Macular Degenerate: These people who whine about their crushing student debt should be slapped for their poor choices and lack of creativity.

Or maybe *gasp* they should consider if a college education is really a good investment. The world certainly doesn't need any more Liberal Artists.


Amen.
 
2012-06-14 09:18:48 PM
ACS Education Services

I used to work for ACS. Worst job I ever had. The place was barely a step above a sweatshop. F*ck those guys.
 
2012-06-14 09:19:08 PM

bdub77: Oh please. What teenager listens to their farking parents? Kids either learn it or they don't. And even if it could be taught, it doesn't apply to everyone. And they certainly learn what independence is through the experience, not being told 'hey if you don't pay the loan your credit history will create problems in your future' because at that age it's in one ear out the other - and kids have their own minds about things. Not every kid, mind you. But many of them.


Your kids sound farked up.
 
2012-06-14 09:19:35 PM
While federal student loans are forgiven if the student dies before the money is repaid, lenders of private student loans can choose to forgive the debt or go after a co-signer for the money.

/No shiat? They are in the business to MAKE money, not lose it, if that means going after you, your wife, taking your home or your car, they will do it. Nice doesn't factor in in business. Your son died? fark you, pay me. Bad week in your business? fark you, pay me.
 
2012-06-14 09:19:57 PM
Hopefully I'll never have to deal with this, but if some collection agency started hounding me for money my dead kid owed, I would take the law into my own hands. You're just asking to get the shiat beat out of you for something like that.
 
2012-06-14 09:21:45 PM
When the guy answers the phone he should just start talking about his dead son and start crying. The collector will try to call the man down. When he gets calmed down, and that should take a few minutes, he should remain silent for three seconds then scream and start crying again.
 
2012-06-14 09:22:07 PM

ThrobblefootSpectre: Nem Wan: It should be illegal for a debtor to be required to pay more than the current owner of a loan paid to acquire it plus interest since. Selling a loan for less than the amount owed should be considered forgiveness of the difference. If the original lender wants to collect the full amount then they should have to hang onto the loan.

Eh? The loan is a note that has value. Just like a dollar bill is a note that has value. If I give someone a dollar bill in exchange for 50 cents. That doesn't mean his dollar bill is now worth only 50 cents.


It should be more like a stock, worth what it was last traded for. Of course I'd exclude government and corporate bonds from this rule change.
 
2012-06-14 09:22:51 PM
Fun fact: the Fair Debt Collection Act does not apply to student loan collections.
 
2012-06-14 09:23:07 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Serious Post on Serious Thread: For Grad school, before July 2006, anything above stafford was PRIVATE ONLY, ie, super fark-job terms, like no co-signor = double the rate and no termination of loan upon primary beneficiaries death. Sometime in 2006 somebody in Congress smelled the next bubble bursting and somehow GradPLUS loans were made available to grad students without a co-signor.

The Federal limits on Stafford loans for graduate school are very high. Plus, if you're going to graduate school (and not getting a terminal masters) without a teaching or research assistant fellowship you are doing it really wrong.


$20k a year for combined sub/unsub in a decent grad program is "high"??? Farking UNDERGRAD is twice that these days.

Droppin some science

I'm guessing you are another person who went to school over 5-10 years ago and is now clueless about reality. Also, there aren't a lot of 'fellowships' in professional school.
 
2012-06-14 09:23:21 PM

rohar: bdub77: Oh please. What teenager listens to their farking parents? Kids either learn it or they don't. And even if it could be taught, it doesn't apply to everyone. And they certainly learn what independence is through the experience, not being told 'hey if you don't pay the loan your credit history will create problems in your future' because at that age it's in one ear out the other - and kids have their own minds about things. Not every kid, mind you. But many of them.

Your kids sound farked up.


It's genetic.
 
2012-06-14 09:23:28 PM
A lot of people unaware of what cosigning a loan means.
 
2012-06-14 09:24:21 PM

rohar: bdub77: Oh please. What teenager listens to their farking parents? Kids either learn it or they don't. And even if it could be taught, it doesn't apply to everyone. And they certainly learn what independence is through the experience, not being told 'hey if you don't pay the loan your credit history will create problems in your future' because at that age it's in one ear out the other - and kids have their own minds about things. Not every kid, mind you. But many of them.

Your kids sound farked up.


LOL. My experience with my parents. I'm sorry to disappoint. And practically everyone I knew in college and after college, and my wife, and her brothers. I knew plenty of irresponsible college students - hell everyone I knew was like that. And I wasn't exactly a bad kid.
 
2012-06-14 09:27:09 PM

MrEricSir: Hopefully I'll never have to deal with this, but if some collection agency started hounding me for money my dead kid owed, I would take the law into my own hands. You're just asking to get the shiat beat out of you for something like that.


So they should just forget about the money they gave him because you are sad? You know they didn't just give it to him out of the kindess of their hearts, right? Sense, you make none.
 
2012-06-14 09:28:34 PM

bdub77: JK47: bdub77: And I don't consider myself an ass for wanting to make my kid responsible. Again, best laid plans. There's no saying what will happen in the future, but that's what I plan to do. I think college is worth it now, but in the future who knows?

Personally I think it's hilarious that everyone wants to entitle their kid to everything. Good luck with that.


You don't "make" your child responsible. Either you teach it or you don't. If that's your plan then you're basically forcing them into a situation where, to succeed, they must be responsible. Like "teaching" your child to swim by chucking them out of a boat and then telling them to swim to shore. It's not a great method and it's one with very little margin for error.

Then again you want your child to get a 4 year degree but you want them to spend half of it in a 3rd tier institution and spend half of their time at that institution working on the side. A poor plan since they'll need to work harder to do well at the community college level and instead of focusing on studying they'll be splitting time between studies and menial jobs. Reminds me of the saying "a jack of all trades but a master of none."

Oh please. What teenager listens to their farking parents? Kids either learn it or they don't. And even if it could be taught, it doesn't apply to everyone. And they certainly learn what independence is through the experience, not being told 'hey if you don't pay the loan your credit history will create problems in your future' because at that age it's in one ear out the other - and kids have their own minds about things. Not every kid, mind you. But many of them.

I worked 30 hours a week while getting good grades in college. My way was to be in charge of a computer lab, which meant I could work on homework while earning money, although for a long time I was working late shifts at an italian restaurant. I don't understand how people think they can't do both college and menial jobs.


Because A) HAVE YOU NOTICED THE ECONOMY, there ARE NO menial jobs, they are being done by able bodied middle aged professionals that have nothing left!

and B) I REPEAT for you hard of hearing old fart "tuition inflation has outstripped regular inflation by some insane margin (5-1, use your google biatches) in the last 25 years. And really went nuts about 10 years ago.

So anybody who has not paid tuition in the past 5 years should STFU and GTFO.
"
 
2012-06-14 09:29:43 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Macular Degenerate: Or maybe *gasp* they should consider if a college education is really a good investment. The world certainly doesn't need any more Liberal Artists.

I'd disagree, I think it needs *more* folks with liberal arts degrees, because, currently, the folks getting business / industry degrees seem to almost entirely lack any concepts of culture or critical thought.

Varies with folks who have science degrees.

Macular Degenerate: It can be done today, but I had to dodge and weave to get my education paid for. Granted, it's a lot more expensive today than it was before, but still - there are a lot of options. These people who whine about their crushing student debt should be slapped for their poor choices and lack of creativity.

I don't think there's anyone who doesn't think the system could and should be less complicated.


I am responsible for career development and experiential education in our University, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that our Liberal Arts students are destined for greatness in fast food, while our engineering, math, computer science, and technology students are hired by industry through co-op programs usually before they even graduate. Our educational system overproduces poorly qualified L.A. students but there is a desperate shortage of math and computer science students.

A large insurance company in our city has forecasted 700 vacancies in IT/Computer Science over the next 5 years from boomer retirements and attrition, but our University only graduates 17 CS students a year. It's a frickin' joke. These companies aren't outsourcing to India just because it's cheaper, but because it's too expensive to import labor to a state that doesn't produce enough qualified technical people.

B-b-b-b-but math is hard!

No kidding, right? So hit the books, Junior.
 
2012-06-14 09:29:50 PM

No Such Agency: My offspring education plan is:

1. get the kids out of the house at 18.
2. who the hell cares what they do then?
3. use all my newly available money to buy a nice, nice car.

I don't think that's too much to ask, after all they should be glad I'm not sending them a bill for the many many thousands it cost to raise them to the age of majority. Besides, getting some dirt under their fingernails will do them a world of good.

Rarr!


If raising kids is such a dreadful hardship for you, you probably would be better off just sterilizing yourself now.

Unless the kid is a complete farkup, there's no reason to not give them some help. It wasn't a smooth four years of sailing for me when I was in college, and without the help of my family letting me live with them while I finished up, I would probably would be stuck in some crappy dead end job now.
 
2012-06-14 09:30:38 PM

bdub77: rohar: bdub77: Oh please. What teenager listens to their farking parents? Kids either learn it or they don't. And even if it could be taught, it doesn't apply to everyone. And they certainly learn what independence is through the experience, not being told 'hey if you don't pay the loan your credit history will create problems in your future' because at that age it's in one ear out the other - and kids have their own minds about things. Not every kid, mind you. But many of them.

Your kids sound farked up.

LOL. My experience with my parents. I'm sorry to disappoint. And practically everyone I knew in college and after college, and my wife, and her brothers. I knew plenty of irresponsible college students - hell everyone I knew was like that. And I wasn't exactly a bad kid.


So you sound like you come from a farked up culture of problems and irresponsibility. This is a good sign, how?
 
2012-06-14 09:31:28 PM

MrEricSir: Hopefully I'll never have to deal with this, but if some collection agency started hounding me for money my dead kid owed, I would take the law into my own hands. You're just asking to get the shiat beat out of you for something like that.


pete1729: When the guy answers the phone he should just start talking about his dead son and start crying. The collector will try to call the man down. When he gets calmed down, and that should take a few minutes, he should remain silent for three seconds then scream and start crying again.


I understand the distastefulness of the overall notion of collecting from someone for their dead relative's debt, HOWEVER, the death of the primary debtor has NEVER erased money owed. The Estate of the deceased still owes the debt, or, in the case of a minor, the legal guardian. If you co-sign for someone, you are assuming a responsibility that still exists even if they die. This isn't new, crooked or cruel.

It would be nice to think that, when someone dies, their creditors are simply out of luck but not only is that unfair to the marketplace that would have to bear the cost of the forfeited receivables, it's simply not reflective of a responsible credit system.

Sorry, dad, you have to pay. In hindsight, you should have insisted your son carry a modest insurance policy before going into debt for which you'd co-signed. Hell, even in a spousal relationship that's a good idea. For instance, if either my wife or I die, the insurance we carry pays off our mortgage. Hopefully others will learn from this sad but common experience.
 
2012-06-14 09:33:31 PM
If my kid wants a college education, then he can do what I did: go overseas, kill brown people, torture civilians, and take Polaroids to jerk off to later. Then use the GI Bill to party like a rock star until the money gets cut off. Then live in a van. It's the American way!
 
2012-06-14 09:33:47 PM

what_now: The loan's current servicer - ACS Education Services - is obligated to reveal this amount, but the father is having trouble getting the truth out of the company, a subsidiary of Xerox.

Bullshiat. There are some servicers that are shady. This isn't one of them. The father probably doesn't have the students account number, SSN, ID number etc.

There's an awful lot missing out of this story.


How can he have a SSN? He's a gardner working for $21,000 a year taking away an American job.

/hitting and running, ducking too.
 
2012-06-14 09:34:36 PM

Nem Wan: It should be more like a stock, worth what it was last traded for. Of course I'd exclude government and corporate bonds from this rule change.


Stocks go up and down. Not just what it last traded for. That's why people invest in stocks. So they can sell for MORE than they bought for right? Hopefully you at least understand that much. Likewise, the lender wants to get more out of the loan than he paid out.

The value of any financial asset, in general, isn't strictly determined by what it last traded for. People can, and sometimes do, choose to trade an asset for less than the dollar value of an asset. That doesn't mean the asset is now devalued.

For example, suppose I give my son a car for his 18 birthday. It is now his car, in his name. Is the value of the car now $0 because it didn't cost him anything? No. Finance just doesn't work that way.
 
2012-06-14 09:34:47 PM
My sympathy went to zero at the word "co-signed".

I mean, shiat, do you know what it means to co-sign on the loan? Hell, I could write for the Consumerist. It's easy:

1. Find a retard who signed an agreement
2. Find a company that is holding them to the agreement they signed
3. Write a pity party article about how unfair it is
4. PROFIT?
 
2012-06-14 09:38:26 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: I don't know where it became law that parents need to pay for their kids' college. I certainly never had any help with my college stuff other than free room and board while I was doing my 2 years at CC.


I hear you. My parents raised me to earn and save money. I paid my own university tuition with money I'd been saving since I was 16. My parents helped me by selling me their old car for $1 a couple of years before they would have sent it to the wrecker, and my mother sent a lot of good healthy frozen meals back with me every time I came home to visit.

You respect it more if it costs you. It's easy to spend someone else's money.
 
2012-06-14 09:38:54 PM
Something doesn't add up here. The man allegedly has an attorney, but the attorney appears incompetent. The attorney should send a letter to whomever is attempting to collect the debt, pursuant to the fair debt collection and practices act, which requires debt collectors follow certain rules, or open themselves up to suit from the debtor.

If I was representing the father I would send a letter to whomever is demanding payment. I would note that my client disputes the debt and demand verification in writing. Once that is received the debt collector has 30 days to provide proof or cease collection activities in connection with the debt.

That would, at a minimum, get the father verification of the debt which would include the balance and the terms, etc... Given how many times this thing has been sold the current owner may not have all the paperwork (as we saw with foreclosure) and therefore compliance might be impossible, so they would have to cease further collections.

Even if the debt collector is able to provide verification, the great part is the debt owner has gone to great lengths to keep their identity hidden, so the chances of them actually filing a suit is minimal as their identity would be disclosed during the discovery process.
 
2012-06-14 09:39:07 PM

DamnYankees: bdub77: rohar: bdub77: Oh please. What teenager listens to their farking parents? Kids either learn it or they don't. And even if it could be taught, it doesn't apply to everyone. And they certainly learn what independence is through the experience, not being told 'hey if you don't pay the loan your credit history will create problems in your future' because at that age it's in one ear out the other - and kids have their own minds about things. Not every kid, mind you. But many of them.

Your kids sound farked up.

LOL. My experience with my parents. I'm sorry to disappoint. And practically everyone I knew in college and after college, and my wife, and her brothers. I knew plenty of irresponsible college students - hell everyone I knew was like that. And I wasn't exactly a bad kid.

So you sound like you come from a farked up culture of problems and irresponsibility. This is a good sign, how?


Come back for some more trolling huh? Seriously dude you have a hard on for me or something? Truth is I turned out fine, my friends turned out fine, nearly all of them have very good jobs. College is college, and people between the ages of 18 and 22 are generally very immature there's no other way to put it. I'm sure every one of you farkers has snowflakes that are just the class of the school and do everything perfect and they were raised perfectly by their parents and have had no problems getting jobs.

I live in a college mecca. No it isn't hard to find a menial job here for college students. My colleagues have kids in college and those kids have jobs in addition to their schoolwork.

Trolls have just taken over Fark lately, sheesh. I have no idea how people view my methods in the least as horrifying or my college experience as anything other than average. Good luck raising your children people.
 
pla
2012-06-14 09:39:36 PM
Step 1) Have creditors refuse to disclose the origin and details of the debt.
Step 2) ... Countersue for prosecuting a bad debt.
Step 3) Profit!

Pretty straightforward, in this one. They won't give the details of the debt owed? You don't owe it. They ruin your credit as a result (and seriously? A guy making 22k/year has no credit to ruin)? You own them.
 
2012-06-14 09:39:40 PM
Cosigned the note. Too bad.

Lesson from a long time ago: If you can choose between relatives and the devil, deal woth the devil. You KNOW he'll try to fark you.
 
2012-06-14 09:40:03 PM

bdub77: doglover: .

The student loan crisis is caused by government subsidy is what's causing the exploding costs of students going to a four-year college ...


FTFY

Farking economics, how does it work?
 
2012-06-14 09:40:12 PM

Macular Degenerate: B-b-b-b-but math is hard!

No kidding, right? So hit the books, Junior.


I'm not speaking of it from a "get jobs" standpoint, I'm speaking of it from a "goddamn we've changed all our universities to crank out people simply looking for jobs instead of people who have a well rounded education who can benefit society as a whole" point of view.
 
2012-06-14 09:41:20 PM

Highroller48: I understand the distastefulness of the overall notion of collecting from someone for their dead relative's debt, HOWEVER, the death of the primary debtor has NEVER erased money owed. The Estate of the deceased still owes the debt, or, in the case of a minor, the legal guardian. If you co-sign for someone, you are assuming a responsibility that still exists even if they die. This isn't new, crooked or cruel.


Want to know how I know you didn't RTFA?
 
2012-06-14 09:43:15 PM

bdub77: doglover: .

You're just insane for not paying attention to the price increases in tuition and huge student loan crisis.

If you think your kid'll get enough money to go to college on his own credit score at 18, you're going to up the creek.

My advice, do your plan to the kid, but start saving NOW so you can pay his way anyways. Worst case scenario: you wind up with an extra $300,000 or something.

Well she'll be 20 and I plan to make sure she has some credit history by then. And trust me, I know what you're saying. But we'll see where we are then and adjust accordingly.

I consider myself lucky, I had a good education and my family certainly helped me. But I made several financial mistakes, and I attribute some of that to not being properly educated on financial responsibility. I don't plan to make that mistake with my children. And I found the more independent my parents made me, the more responsible I became monetarily. I learned to live with less. And yes college kids are irresponsible dipshiats, I know from personal experience, having been one.

The student loan crisis is caused by the exploding costs of students going to a four-year college, getting a shiat degree, and then not being able to get a job due to the recession. The exploding cost has a lot of factors, but there's a bubble there. Either way, this is making payment for those loans worse. By going the CC route you avoid the major costs of university. I don't even really advocate going to college if you aren't planning to do something in STEM, but I'm certainly not going to force my kid to choose that path, just nudge them a bit. They can forego college to if they are so inclined.

Besides, who's to say I'd even be able to afford the full cost of college by the time my kid is 20?


As a young person going to college I can tell you your heart is in the right place but you seem to be way out of touch with reality. The fact that you were irresponsible is in no way your family's fault, much less your daughter's, but rather your own. I don't know how long ago you went to college, but in this day and time even the cheapest public universities are almost too expensive to pay without some sort of help for most families (even the ones relatively well off) and that is considering CC for 2 years and living at home.

I worked an average of 32 hrs. per week for a year and barely earned enough to cover one semester of the school I will be attending and that is hypothetically keeping all my earnings since the first day I worked and not spending a dime which is obviously impossible. If you think your child will make enough working on the side for 2 years to even have a significant impact on her college costs, you're making a horrible mistake. She would be better off just focusing on her grades and getting some sort of merit-based scholarship to help out with college costs.

And no, my parents are not paying a dime for my college costs. Like I said, your heart is in the right place, it really is. I grew up in a tough environment and that taught me how to be independent and has contributed to my academic "success" so far. Even though I was never a sheltered snowflake I knew they were there to support me and it is that mix of independence and support that has helped me in my endeavors. Also, they trusted me enough to separate themselves from my education in general other than the occasional "how was school today?" I never had to report my grades to them or anything along those lines which really made all the difference.
 
2012-06-14 09:43:24 PM

Serious Post on Serious Thread: $20k a year for combined sub/unsub in a decent grad program is "high"??? Farking UNDERGRAD is twice that these days.

Droppin some science

I'm guessing you are another person who went to school over 5-10 years ago and is now clueless about reality. Also, there aren't a lot of 'fellowships' in professional school.


Again, if you can't make your tuition in graduate school on a combination of Stafford loans and a TA/RA stipend, you're doing it wrong.

There's a reason why when people apply to graduate schools, they check to make sure they can get their tuition comp'd by the department through an RA or TA position plus a stipend.

If you accepted a position that does not offer that sort of assistance, then you simply picked the wrong position with the wrong school.
 
2012-06-14 09:45:48 PM
I got a call the other day from a student loan company, demanding a payment, but I had never heard of the company before. They had my information, I asked them to tell me when the loan was taken out. If it is a real debt that I owe to them, then they'd have no problem giving me that information. They refused. Everytime I asked, they replied with "Are you questioning that you took out a loan?" I answered with "I'm quesitoning that I owe you money, when was the loan taken out and for how much money?" They answered with "Okay, if you are going to be like this, we'll just start garnishing your wages."

I'm going to use my prepaid legal to get them to either admit that I legally owe them money or that they are scammers looking to scare people into payment.

Honestly, I have no problem paying off these debts, but honestly, work with us!!! If our income is $2,000 a month, a $500/month student loan bill isn't doing us any favors. Threats don't work. Our top three financial responsibilities are rent, food and utilities. Rent should only take roughly one quarter of the monthly income. And when we ask for help on our student loans, there should be a law against just paying the interest and not touching the principle. "Oh, you can't pay the full bill? No problem, just pay $2,500 over the next twelve months. This won't go towards actually paying down the principle, so you'll just be paying us money for nothing." The last time this was mentioned, I was unemployed, and my response was "If we were in the same room right now, I'd punch you in the kidneys for such a retarded suggestion." I'd rather raise three quarters of the remaining student loan debt, call them up and negociate a one time deal to pay the entire thing off. The interest rates are bullshiat. The last time I had the money to make that suggestion, they insisted on taking on the late fees, admin fees, and all the interest. I told them to go to hell. They sent me a check for $19,980, and the most I'm going to pay is that amount, minus payments I've already made. Not what they suggested, which was over $30,000. That's asinine.
 
2012-06-14 09:49:56 PM

FitzShivering: This story makes absolutely no sense.

If it's entirely true, he has a really bad lawyer.


That sounds right to me. From the spotty reporting in the article, it looks like there probably are lots of violations of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act and probably some state laws too. Where I live, certain violations by a collection agency make it legally impossible by the agency (or anyone else it sells the debt to) to collect any fees for collecting the debt. And if they can't produce proof of ownership of the promissory notes, they don't own them.

(My student loan lender once sent me a letter saying they'd lost my promissory note and would I please sign another one. I kept paying on schedule until done, but I didn't sign their farking "substitute" note and never heard from them again about it. I might have got away with ceasing payments because they couldn't produce the note, but that just seemed like a bad idea.)
 
2012-06-14 09:50:25 PM
I did one year of community college and always regretted it. For the rest of my life it was an extra embarassing transcript to request, an extra line on job applications, and a general pita. It was also substandard education. If you really think a kid who did 2+2 is considered the same as a kid who did 4 years of real college when it's time to apply for grad school, internships, or jobs I will go ahead and call you an idiot.
 
2012-06-14 09:51:17 PM
Poor people problem.

What you guys should think about doing is not being poor.
Problem solved.

Check. Mate.

/Amerrrricaaaa
 
pla
2012-06-14 09:51:18 PM
Highroller48 : the death of the primary debtor has NEVER erased money owed. The Estate of the deceased still owes the debt, or, in the case of a minor, the legal guardian. If you co-sign for someone, you are assuming a responsibility that still exists even if they die.

You've made three separate points there, which I'll address individually.

1) You can refuse to inherit an estate. If your parents owe 60 billion, you simply refuse to accept the estate, end of debt.

2) 18 means "not a minor"

3) The only one applicable to this situation, the father did cosign, which makes him liable for the debt. However, debt collection has rules, you can't just start harassing someone without telling them the amount, terms, and origin of the debt; And even then, once they lawyer up, you can't contact them at all except through their attorney.


You won't find many bigger fans of personal responsibility than me, on Fark - But part of that includes your creditors actually making themselves known and declaring how much you owe.
 
2012-06-14 09:51:52 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Correct. Federal student loans, which are pretty easy to get, do not require a parental co-signer.


If under the age of 24, they require parent financial records.

If parents make enough money, no loan monies for you.
 
2012-06-14 09:58:40 PM
College should be free, as it in Sweden. If medical school were free, we could also change the put-upon mentality of doctors ("I'm going to do what it takes to recoup my $150k investment and then some") and lower healthcare costs.
 
2012-06-14 09:59:53 PM

ph0rk: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Correct. Federal student loans, which are pretty easy to get, do not require a parental co-signer.

If under the age of 24, they require parent financial records.

If parents make enough money, no loan monies for you.



No. Wanna know how I know? Cuz I was locked out of things like Pell Grants (which do hold to that standard) until I was 24. Doesn't apply to either Stafford Loans or Work Study programs.

Bone up on your FAFSA info, because your current info is wrong.
 
2012-06-14 10:00:13 PM

Koodz: I did one year of community college and always regretted it. For the rest of my life it was an extra embarassing transcript to request, an extra line on job applications, and a general pita. It was also substandard education. If you really think a kid who did 2+2 is considered the same as a kid who did 4 years of real college when it's time to apply for grad school, internships, or jobs I will go ahead and call you an idiot.


Your major classes are going to come at the 4-year institution. That's what your employer is going to care about, not whether you took your English at CC or at a 4-year school. Community colleges also don't harass you to donate to their alumni fund.

/marked email from my college as spam
 
2012-06-14 10:00:32 PM

Moodybastard: bdub77: downstairs: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

But he's going to need a loan at some point, and they're not going to give him one unless you co-sign. So your plan will fail to get him into anything beyond community college.

Federal student loans don't require a cosigner, just private ones. With any luck, they'll still be around. :) And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.

You may want to take a look at the cost of college...before you have children.
The sort of temp job someone can get while going to cc/2 year school is going to hover in the min wage category.


So you guys think he's an ass for making his kid pay for 1 year of college? Whatever.
 
2012-06-14 10:01:38 PM

bdub77: rohar: bdub77: Oh please. What teenager listens to their farking parents? Kids either learn it or they don't. And even if it could be taught, it doesn't apply to everyone. And they certainly learn what independence is through the experience, not being told 'hey if you don't pay the loan your credit history will create problems in your future' because at that age it's in one ear out the other - and kids have their own minds about things. Not every kid, mind you. But many of them.

Your kids sound farked up.

LOL. My experience with my parents. I'm sorry to disappoint. And practically everyone I knew in college and after college, and my wife, and her brothers. I knew plenty of irresponsible college students - hell everyone I knew was like that. And I wasn't exactly a bad kid.


You appear to be surrounded by idiots. Seeing where we, as a country are going, that's not so terribly unique.

Hate to tell you this, but there's no reason young people should behave this way. There's nothing written in stone that says as much.
 
2012-06-14 10:04:07 PM

pla: Highroller48 : the death of the primary debtor has NEVER erased money owed. The Estate of the deceased still owes the debt, or, in the case of a minor, the legal guardian. If you co-sign for someone, you are assuming a responsibility that still exists even if they die.

You've made three separate points there, which I'll address individually.

1) You can refuse to inherit an estate. If your parents owe 60 billion, you simply refuse to accept the estate, end of debt.

2) 18 means "not a minor"

3) The only one applicable to this situation, the father did cosign, which makes him liable for the debt. However, debt collection has rules, you can't just start harassing someone without telling them the amount, terms, and origin of the debt; And even then, once they lawyer up, you can't contact them at all except through their attorney.


You won't find many bigger fans of personal responsibility than me, on Fark - But part of that includes your creditors actually making themselves known and declaring how much you owe.


Well you don't inherit the debt specifically- you can inherit property with a lien on it, or creditors will claim assets in the estate before they're inherited. But debt doesn't get willed or automatically falls onto the closest living relative, unless they're married- debt is usually a joint debt in that case.

Parents aren't liable for their children's debts unless they cosign- this is the reason NO ONE loans money to minors without a cosigner. And in most cases teens can't even sign a contract and assume a contractual debt legally anyways. It has to be that way, otherwise half of the teens out there would sign a loan for $10,000 without dropping a beat.
 
2012-06-14 10:04:34 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: ph0rk: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Correct. Federal student loans, which are pretty easy to get, do not require a parental co-signer.

If under the age of 24, they require parent financial records.

If parents make enough money, no loan monies for you.


No. Wanna know how I know? Cuz I was locked out of things like Pell Grants (which do hold to that standard) until I was 24. Doesn't apply to either Stafford Loans or Work Study programs.

Bone up on your FAFSA info, because your current info is wrong.


Unsubsidized Stafford Loans only. Which means it accrues interest immediately rather than after you graduate. Work Study is based on your parent's income as well.
 
2012-06-14 10:05:14 PM

swingerofbirches: College should be free, as it in Sweden. If medical school were free, we could also change the put-upon mentality of doctors ("I'm going to do what it takes to recoup my $150k investment and then some") and lower healthcare costs.


But socialism!

/out
 
2012-06-14 10:05:37 PM

Koodz: I did one year of community college and always regretted it. For the rest of my life it was an extra embarassing transcript to request, an extra line on job applications, and a general pita. It was also substandard education. If you really think a kid who did 2+2 is considered the same as a kid who did 4 years of real college when it's time to apply for grad school, internships, or jobs I will go ahead and call you an idiot.


As someone who did 2+2, did an internship while in college and as a result, is currently employed and has zero student loan debt, kindly STFU.
 
2012-06-14 10:06:00 PM

Serious Post on Serious Thread: ArkAngel: what_now: ArkAngel: 93% of all student loans are federal

Man, I wish I wasn't leaving my office right now.

That statistic is absurd. No offense man, but private student lending is a multi billion dollar industry.

And when there are a trillion dollars in loans, you can have the feds doling out 93% and still have a multi-billion dollar private industry.

Link
Link
Link

Dude, those links are nice and all but the big picture is much bigger and complicated, both in size and by year, and by degree. Stafford loans, subsidized & unsubsidized by the gov't have been around a long time for undergrad & grad, I don't believe there needed to be a co-signor, but the loans covered relatively little (like less than half) of most tuition fees, not including housing, food, books, insurance, etc.

All undergrad gov't PLUS loans (ie, the loans that paid for the other half of tuition plus housing etc etc) needed a parent co-signor. BUT, I think since they were gov't loans, they were terminated when/if the primary beneficiary died.

For Grad school, before July 2006, anything above stafford was PRIVATE ONLY, ie, super fark-job terms, like no co-signor = double the rate and no termination of loan upon primary beneficiaries death. Sometime in 2006 somebody in Congress smelled the next bubble bursting and somehow GradPLUS loans were made available to grad students without a co-signor.

So basically, as I understand it, no one should ever be taking out anything but Fed loans (Stafford/Perkins/PLUS/GradPlus) at this point, if for no other reason than dischargeability in death. But that option is only 6 years old. And if there is NO option of a co-signor, Privates may be someones only undergrad option, but then again, that means death means no possible recourse for the privates.

Also also, Stafford & PLUS loans now qualify for IBR (Income based repayment), so even if you make minimum wage, you pay off on a graduated scale that terminates after 25 years. That has only been available since 2008ish.

Basically, if you play your cards right, you currently can be saddled with a shiat load of gov't debt, but it is at least dischargeable in death or after 25 years of indentured servitude. Borrowers before 2006 are screwed with private debt terms, and no dischargeability in death.

So also also also, this crap is a maze, and if anyone in the middle is on the take, it is easy as hell to go down the 'wrong' path.

/I feel bad for this guy
//lost his son
///and likely didn't have the understanding or resources to navigate the BS loan system


All valid points. I will also add, however, that the debt forgiveness that comes at the termination of the IBR period is NOT a tax-free discharge of indebtedness. The discharge that comes at the end of the 10-year (120 monthly payments) public service loan forgiveness program IS tax-free.
 
2012-06-14 10:06:43 PM
People that think that it is okay to let an 18 year old kid fend for himself shouldn't have children. You are nothing more than animals not even realizing what happens when you have sex.
 
2012-06-14 10:06:51 PM
Nothing new

media-cache0.pinterest.com
 
2012-06-14 10:08:30 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Serious Post on Serious Thread: $20k a year for combined sub/unsub in a decent grad program is "high"??? Farking UNDERGRAD is twice that these days.

Droppin some science

I'm guessing you are another person who went to school over 5-10 years ago and is now clueless about reality. Also, there aren't a lot of 'fellowships' in professional school.

Again, if you can't make your tuition in graduate school on a combination of Stafford loans and a TA/RA stipend, you're doing it wrong.

There's a reason why when people apply to graduate schools, they check to make sure they can get their tuition comp'd by the department through an RA or TA position plus a stipend.

If you accepted a position that does not offer that sort of assistance, then you simply picked the wrong position with the wrong school.


Again, not talking Masters of Talking Out My Ass, grad schools, you know, other stuff, everything from Accounting to Veterinary degrees. Guess we'll never need any of those fools! How dare they try and provide a service not undergirded by the perpetual mechanizations of academic masturbatory self-perpetuation!

You are describing an academic scam. I'm describing getting an (what used to be) useful degree you could make a living off of. Congrats if you achieved the former, but good luck getting your estate planned or dog cared for if you scorn the latter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_professional_degree#Professional_d e grees
 
2012-06-14 10:10:15 PM

Cheesus: Unsubsidized Stafford Loans only. Which means it accrues interest immediately rather than after you graduate.


They're loans, you're gonna pay interest.

That's also totally different than your first statement.

Work Study is based on your parent's income as well.

The thresholds are very high compared to Pell Grants, et al. I qualified for work study every single time I got denied Pell Grants.

/really out
 
2012-06-14 10:11:37 PM

dustman81: Koodz: I did one year of community college and always regretted it. For the rest of my life it was an extra embarassing transcript to request, an extra line on job applications, and a general pita. It was also substandard education. If you really think a kid who did 2+2 is considered the same as a kid who did 4 years of real college when it's time to apply for grad school, internships, or jobs I will go ahead and call you an idiot.

As someone who did 2+2, did an internship while in college and as a result, is currently employed and has zero student loan debt, kindly STFU.


Congrats on your anecdote. I have one too.
 
2012-06-14 10:11:37 PM

pippi longstocking: People that think that it is okay to let an 18 year old kid fend for himself shouldn't have children. You are nothing more than animals not even realizing what happens when you have sex.


neorepublica.com

Would gladly disagree with you.

/fending for himself and us
//average age is still 19
///joined when I was 17
 
2012-06-14 10:11:41 PM
My plan is so far to ignore my college debt forever. So far so good. Why I should pay for something I am not using. If they want the diploma back I am happy to mail it back and no longer endorse the college or associate myself with it in anyway. I already gave them several years of my limited life span. They can suck a fat one.
 
2012-06-14 10:13:07 PM
FTFA: Because he co-signed on his son's loan, he is now fully liable for the total loan amount.

There you go. Feel sorry for the guy but he signed the contract.

Having said that, whoever owns this loan is required by law to provide a full accounting of the payments, balance and interest within in 30 days (unless the rules are different than the rules for consumer loans).

Got out of a loan for furniture once because the company I originally got the loan from sold all their loans. Unfortunately for the company that bought them, all of the account data was stored using outdated software and was inaccessible.

I originally asked for a loan balance sheet because I believed that several of my payments hadn't been properly recorded. I hounded them until they offered to settle the loan. Turns out it would cost more to access the data than I still owed on the loan but factors of 10. Too bad for them.
 
2012-06-14 10:13:58 PM

swingerofbirches: College should be free, as it in Sweden. If medical school were free, we could also change the put-upon mentality of doctors ("I'm going to do what it takes to recoup my $150k investment and then some") and lower healthcare costs.


Unfortunately, to do that we would have to drastically raise taxes. The Swedes pay one of the (if not THE) highest tax rates in the world, when you combine all taxes (not just income). Americans want it all but don't want to pay for it. My Swedish cousins don't really complain about their tax rate simply because pretty much all basic needs are met, so their take-home pays rent/mortgage, utilities, food, and fun.
 
2012-06-14 10:14:40 PM

swingerofbirches: College should be free


How's that working out for the Greeks?
 
2012-06-14 10:14:43 PM
FTA: "I would tell them to call the lawyer," he tell ProPublica. "And they would still say, 'The lawyer doesn't owe us. You're the one who owes us. You're the one who has to pay us.'"

If they want to go THAT route, then he can say "Yeah, well I didn't borrow money from YOU, I borrowed from someone else. Therefore I owe YOU nothing."

This buying and selling of debt is a major problem. It's why zombie debt exists.
 
2012-06-14 10:15:59 PM
"Because he co-signed on his son's loan, he is now fully liable for the total loan amount."

Stopped reading right there. Sorry your kid croaked, but you signed it so stfu and pay your bills.
 
2012-06-14 10:16:23 PM

rohar: pippi longstocking: People that think that it is okay to let an 18 year old kid fend for himself shouldn't have children. You are nothing more than animals not even realizing what happens when you have sex.

[neorepublica.com image 608x405]

Would gladly disagree with you.

/fending for himself and us
//average age is still 19
///joined when I was 17


The brain and cognitive functions aren't full developed until your 20s. It isn't their fault but even 18 year olds don't fully understand the consequences of their actions. Hell some people never do.
 
2012-06-14 10:17:11 PM

bdub77: Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that...


Add me to the people who don't have a problem with this. It sounds kind of like it was in my family: if you wanted to go away for four years, you had to earn some kind of scholarship. It didn't have to be a full ride, but we were expected to contribute. If not, it was two more years at home for community college, then off to the university of our choice for the last two years.

My sisters both did the CC-to-university route. I wasn't up for two extra years at home, so I hit a brazillion golf balls to get good enough to earn scholarship offers. I ended up not taking any of them--I sort of fell into a merit scholarship--but it was nice to know I could have helped if necessary.

And certainly, none of us held it against our parents. We all had guaranteed educations, but we were expected to contribute if that education involved living away from home for four years.
 
2012-06-14 10:20:22 PM
One document shows that $160,000 in credit had been extended to the son, and that if he made all his payments as scheduled, he would have paid a total of $279,000 in the end.

A $160,000 loan for a college degree?

And yet they let the kid graduate, despite this profound act of numerical illiteracy?
 
2012-06-14 10:25:17 PM

Xcott: One document shows that $160,000 in credit had been extended to the son, and that if he made all his payments as scheduled, he would have paid a total of $279,000 in the end.

A $160,000 loan for a college degree?

And yet they let the kid graduate, despite this profound act of numerical illiteracy?


160k for undergrad is about normal at a private university. The expensive ones are all over 200k
 
2012-06-14 10:27:02 PM
Cosigned? They got you.

When there is a cosigner, there should be an insurance option for death or disability. It can't cost that much to the loan given the typical age of a student with a parental cosigner. After all, the concept of cosigner is supposed to be insurance for the lender that the borrower is not just going to take the money and run.
 
2012-06-14 10:27:10 PM

DamnYankees: dustman81: It's called "building character".

Keep telling yourself these little morality tales. It doesn't make them true. You think you're of a higher character because your parents were less generous? Please.


What exactly do you mean by "character", and if poverty and deprivation build it, do I really want any? Is it some vague thing the rich don't have-- I mean, the poor get scabies more than the rich do and you can keep that.
 
2012-06-14 10:28:03 PM
With me, the conversation would go like this after they couldn't come up with who owns the note, and how much it is. "Don't call me again until you get your shiat together. Then we can talk." click
 
2012-06-14 10:29:46 PM
FYI- if you don't have a loan currently - there are virtually NO consumer protections associated with student loans anymore.
 
2012-06-14 10:33:37 PM

Carth: Xcott: A $160,000 loan for a college degree?

And yet they let the kid graduate, despite this profound act of numerical illiteracy?

160k for undergrad is about normal at a private university. The expensive ones are all over 200k


Not if you're broke. 200K is the sticker price for rich people. If you're broke, you usually pay a deeply discounted rate. If you are admitted to Harvard, for example, and you are broke, tuition is free.

There is no legitimate excuse for borrowing 160,000 for college beyond being generally unable to interpret strings of digits.
 
2012-06-14 10:34:01 PM

TheMysteriousStranger: Cosigned? They got you.

When there is a cosigner, there should be an insurance option for death or disability. It can't cost that much to the loan given the typical age of a student with a parental cosigner. After all, the concept of cosigner is supposed to be insurance for the lender that the borrower is not just going to take the money and run.


Some companies do this, I used to work with a guy who did this on sub-prime auto loans for Wells Fargo. But usually it's on the crappier part of your loan portfolio.
 
2012-06-14 10:34:57 PM

Carth: rohar: pippi longstocking: People that think that it is okay to let an 18 year old kid fend for himself shouldn't have children. You are nothing more than animals not even realizing what happens when you have sex.

[neorepublica.com image 608x405]

Would gladly disagree with you.

/fending for himself and us
//average age is still 19
///joined when I was 17

The brain and cognitive functions aren't full developed until your 20s. It isn't their fault but even 18 year olds don't fully understand the consequences of their actions. Hell some people never do.


And yet, the average soldier manages to not only face the consequences of his own actions but ours.

Yeah, I get it, development isn't complete until much later. Capacity to challenge the world comes before development is complete.
 
2012-06-14 10:35:16 PM

Serious Post on Serious Thread: So anybody who has not paid tuition in the past 5 years should STFU and GTFO.


But how will people who didn't go to college feel superior to college grads now?
 
2012-06-14 10:36:21 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Yeah. Even at a state college, working on the side isn't going to make much of a dent in the 2 years on the community college side. Student would be better off concentrating on their studies.


That's a silly thing to say. Clearly it depends on the student's circumstances.

College student or not, If you're broke, you're much better off working than paying four years of living expenses with a giant loan. If you go the giant loan route, you are likely to be screwed for the rest of your life.

The only case in which you should "concentrate on your studies" (a euphemism for not getting a job) is if you have the cash to live for years without getting a job. If you don't, then a job is one of the few options that doesn't lead to financial ruin.
 
2012-06-14 10:36:56 PM
So the lesson here is:

Take out life insurance on anyone you co sign a loan with.
 
2012-06-14 10:37:39 PM

Guidette Frankentits: Kind of hard to be outraged. Sure, banks are crooks and private loans are pretty pricey but why didn't the kid get a federal loan? Did he have a drug conviction? Why did the dad co-sign for a private loan? This is like being mad at an US Bank building's shadow covering the area you planted your new garden in.



The dad makes $21,000/year as a gardener, which suggests that the family is probably unfamiliar with higher education and the nuances of student loans and paying for college. The father, and perhaps the son, were likely too ignorant to know how best to pay for college. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the dad didn't understand what "co-sign" meant.
 
2012-06-14 10:40:06 PM
That really and truly sucks. But it's what "co-signer" means.
 
2012-06-14 10:40:48 PM
I'm with the guy who said if you didn't go to college in the last 5 years kindly stfu. I graduated in 08. I was lucky to have parents who contributed for most of my expense, or I'd have tons of college debt right now. I lived at home and went to a state school. For most of it, I worked two jobs. One I got paid $9.50 an hour and one I got $7 or $8 an hour. For a while I worked a third job that actually paid like $15, but it was a temp job and I ran out of work. I contributed what I could but it honestly is pretty much impossible to pay your whole way. Even living at home, my tuition was something like $3500 a semester, plus $500 or so for books, plus $300 or so for parking. Factor in a couple hundred a month for gas and you are looking at over $15,000 a year while living at home and avoiding most other living expenses.

I guess maybe I could of worked a few more hours if I didn't bother studying, doing school work, or being in clubs that I thought would help me in the future.

Really the fact is now, if you can afford to pay for your tuition from working in the summer like you could 20 years ago, then you probably don't need college. Do whatever the hell it is that is paying you so incredibly well at 18-20 years old.

The same people biatching about how all the young people are idiots for having debt or needing help from their parents are probably the same people biatching about how they should of taken advantage of their free time while in school and worked on independent projects, or unpaid internships to build their resume.

Also I think the price was gone up 15-25% since I graduated so I can't even imagine how they do it now.

I'm not going to scroll up to quote it, but whoever said it is easy because they got an employer to pay for their first degree, then managed to get a job at a university that offered tuition payment as a benefit after probably 20 years of experience is so out of touch with what young people are facing it is asinine they even posted that. Entry level doesn't even exist anymore and every employer has no interest in training anyone for anything. Good luck finding a job that is going to pay to get you a degree, most people with a degree can't even get a job that maybe pays health care. That job I mentioned that paid $7-$8 an hour? Well that was at the university I went to, yeah I wasn't the only one who applied for that.
 
2012-06-14 10:42:35 PM

Moodybastard:

You may want to take a look at the cost of college...before you have children.
The sort of temp job someone can get while going to cc/2 year school is going to hover in the min wage category.


This.

How many part-time jobs can a typical 20 year old get that both works around his/her CC school schedule and leaves tens of thousands of dollars left over to support the student during the last two years of college?
 
2012-06-14 10:43:19 PM

Carth: The brain and cognitive functions aren't full developed until your 20s.


Pseudoscience bullshiat.

Scientists have observed that brain mass is slightly increasing in the 20s and even 30s; it doesn't mean that our cognitive functions are still developing at 20, and it certainly doesn't mean that we can't comprehend loans or compound interest.

Besides, if 20-year-olds are somehow cognitively incapable of understanding basic ideas about dollar amounts or cause and effect, why should they be going to college, where they will be expected to understand the homeomorphism theorem or the categorical imperative? And why would they expect to get a job out of college if science says they're all idiots who aren't done learning to process facts about the world around them?
 
2012-06-14 10:46:15 PM

NickelP: Entry level doesn't even exist anymore and every employer has no interest in training anyone for anything


I'm a data architect. My nearest decent school is UW. Because of that I'm fully aware I have to train my employees.

The rest of your points seemed spot on though.
 
2012-06-14 10:46:43 PM

FizixJunkee: Guidette Frankentits: Kind of hard to be outraged. Sure, banks are crooks and private loans are pretty pricey but why didn't the kid get a federal loan? Did he have a drug conviction? Why did the dad co-sign for a private loan? This is like being mad at an US Bank building's shadow covering the area you planted your new garden in.


The dad makes $21,000/year as a gardener, which suggests that the family is probably unfamiliar with higher education and the nuances of student loans and paying for college. The father, and perhaps the son, were likely too ignorant to know how best to pay for college. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the dad didn't understand what "co-sign" meant.


I'm not sure if you're trying to defend him, but ignorance isn't a defense to get out of loans. I wish it were, I'd claim to be the dumbest motherfarker on the planet.
 
2012-06-14 10:47:26 PM

Xcott: Carth: Xcott: A $160,000 loan for a college degree?

And yet they let the kid graduate, despite this profound act of numerical illiteracy?

160k for undergrad is about normal at a private university. The expensive ones are all over 200k

Not if you're broke. 200K is the sticker price for rich people. If you're broke, you usually pay a deeply discounted rate. If you are admitted to Harvard, for example, and you are broke, tuition is free.

There is no legitimate excuse for borrowing 160,000 for college beyond being generally unable to interpret strings of digits.


The Ivy league schools are pretty good about not bankrupting you once you get in. Harvard even guarantees financial obligations won't stop an admitted student from attending. Schools like Johns Hopkins (55k a year) Pitzer College (54k) and Sarah Lawrence College (59k) aren't as generous and I could see students leaving with nearly 200k in debt.
 
2012-06-14 10:49:08 PM
If someone called me up and told me I owe them an undetermined amount of money, I would simply hang up the phone.

When they provide full documentation, then we'll talk.
 
2012-06-14 10:50:23 PM

Xcott: Carth: The brain and cognitive functions aren't full developed until your 20s.

Pseudoscience bullshiat.

Scientists have observed that brain mass is slightly increasing in the 20s and even 30s; it doesn't mean that our cognitive functions are still developing at 20, and it certainly doesn't mean that we can't comprehend loans or compound interest.

Besides, if 20-year-olds are somehow cognitively incapable of understanding basic ideas about dollar amounts or cause and effect, why should they be going to college, where they will be expected to understand the homeomorphism theorem or the categorical imperative? And why would they expect to get a job out of college if science says they're all idiots who aren't done learning to process facts about the world around them?


If you want to call the neuroscientist MD a quack go ahead. Here is a link to his qualifications and journal articles. if you have other sources that contradict him please share.
 
2012-06-14 10:50:35 PM

FizixJunkee: Moodybastard:

You may want to take a look at the cost of college...before you have children.
The sort of temp job someone can get while going to cc/2 year school is going to hover in the min wage category.

This.

How many part-time jobs can a typical 20 year old get that both works around his/her CC school schedule and leaves tens of thousands of dollars left over to support the student during the last two years of college?


Yeah this. That $15/hr temp job I was lucky to get actually got me a lot of calls from the temp agency it was from. The owner of that company personally called them to say how great I was and how the only reason he terminated my contract was that he was out of work. They tried to put me a few different places after that. When you fill out an available hour sheet that basically says you are completely unavailable on the weekends for your other job, have assorted classes through out the day and sometimes at night, and most of the gaps in your day are filled with your second job, it is pretty damn hard to find someone that can work with that. And on the off chance that you do, in a couple months your schedule will be completely different.
 
2012-06-14 10:50:52 PM

pippi longstocking: People that think that it is okay to let an 18 year old kid fend for himself shouldn't have children. You are nothing more than animals not even realizing what happens when you have sex.


LOL at snowflaking.

My grandfather left home at 15.
My father left home at 15.
I left home at 15... and enlisted at 17.

People grow up just as fast as they need to.
 
2012-06-14 10:51:29 PM

clowncar on fire: Ya just gotta be determined, self-disciplined and a little creative.



Or live in a time when minimum wage jobs actually paid for something. You're a dinosaur with no knowledge of today. Surprise surprise you're a military toolbag.
 
2012-06-14 10:54:49 PM

DamnYankees: Keep telling yourself these little morality tales. It doesn't make them true. You think you're of a higher character because your parents were less generous? Please.


Maybe not, but if someone who gets through college without owing $160,000 is clearly superior in intellect.

Borrowing $160,000 for a college degree is a profound act of mathematical illiteracy; it means that you probably weren't college material, and would have flunked out if the university exercised reasonable academic standards for core competency mathematics and critical thinking requirements.

Indeed, the private loan exercise has replaced the core competency math requirement at many universities. If you borrow intelligently, you pass; if you don't, you may still graduate but you don't really get to enjoy the benefit of a degree. This way you effectively flunk but nobody has to give you an 'F' and have you knocking on their door complaining.
 
2012-06-14 10:55:14 PM
for those saying that they won't help their kids out in collage hope you don't live in a state that has laws saying that parents are required to support their kids to like 21 or 25ish. While not requiring to sign for student loans or such in Maine until a person is 24 parents are required by law to keep a roof over the kid head and the kid feed and cloths. I have gone into my town hall to do one thing or the other and sit there and listen as some collage student is in there to get help with food or rent and have to prove that their parents can't afford to help. If they say their parents can afford to but won't the clerk will call the parents and tell them its the law that the parent must pay their kids rent or get them money for food or the state can charge them with something or other. Also if the student can't prove then they will call and the parent must prove they can't. If the parent/student can prove that the parents are to poor to help then the town will.
 
2012-06-14 10:58:20 PM

jumac: for those saying that they won't help their kids out in collage hope you don't live in a state that has laws saying that parents are required to support their kids to like 21 or 25ish. While not requiring to sign for student loans or such in Maine until a person is 24 parents are required by law to keep a roof over the kid head and the kid feed and cloths. I have gone into my town hall to do one thing or the other and sit there and listen as some collage student is in there to get help with food or rent and have to prove that their parents can't afford to help. If they say their parents can afford to but won't the clerk will call the parents and tell them its the law that the parent must pay their kids rent or get them money for food or the state can charge them with something or other. Also if the student can't prove then they will call and the parent must prove they can't. If the parent/student can prove that the parents are to poor to help then the town will.


Now would be a good time for a citation. Thinking further, it might not be a bad time to learn the English language.
 
2012-06-14 10:58:23 PM

fanbladesaresharp: rengav:
Retirement funds are NOT considered in the calculation of financial need. The poorer you look, the more "free" financial aid you get (grants, needs based scholarships, etc.). The parents are considered contributing to the offspring's education EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT, so you might as well make it easier for you to get some aid and then pick up the rest through other means.

Oddly though, they still consider EFC or Estimated Family Contributions when crunching all the numbers. Even if your parents are gone (mine aren't happily) or on any form of public or retirement assistance it's on the forms to get grant and scholarship money. It takes a little off the top even if contributions don't, or can't exist. Found that out about a year ago


I managed to convince my university that I was independent of my parents when I was 18 years old (this was in 1996). It wasn't the easiest process---schools really, really doubt any student is truly, 100% self-supporting. I had to provide a copy of apartment lease, bank records, copies of tax returns, pay stubs, etc. In short, I had to prove that I earned enough money to cover all my expenses and that there was no source of unaccounted for income. Since I was, in fact, 100% self-supporting, I was successful.

\dad was unemployed and homeless at the time
\\my mom was dead
 
2012-06-14 11:02:15 PM

bdub77: downstairs: bdub77:

Federal student loans don't require a cosigner, just private ones. With any luck, they'll still be around. :) And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.


ohwaityou'reserious.jpeg

I was on twelve credits last semester. I had exactly one hour Monday and Wednesday mornings to myself. The rest of my time was spent studying. I'm going to be on fifteen credits next semester, so there goes that hour. Your kid will have no time at all for anything, and in the summer he will hopefully still be studying, so this entire plan is based on a fantasy.

Scholarships are the way to go. I have my entire tuition paid for through NV Milinnium and Pell.
 
2012-06-14 11:02:48 PM

zzrhardy: LOL at snowflaking.

My grandfather left home at 15.
My father left home at 15.
I left home at 15... and enlisted at 17.

People grow up just as fast as they need to.



Snowflaking?

You ran to big bad daddy government and suck off the tit of handouts. I'd say that doesn't make you a man or grown up.
 
2012-06-14 11:03:20 PM

Carth: If you want to call the neuroscientist MD a quack go ahead. Here is a link to his qualifications and journal articles. if you have other sources that contradict him please share.


You're illiterate. This guy does not claim that our cognitive functions are still developing in our 20s, and certainly not anything related to compound interest or taking out a student loan. That's just your misinterpretation of his findings.

I dare you: show me a single paper by this guy that says 18-year-olds are unable to understand the consequences of a loan because their brain isn't finished developing.

This is probably the most punchable excuse for moronic borrowing that I've ever heard. Why, the loan-taking area in my brain wasn't finished developing until the 22nd year of childhood development! How dare people expect me to make good on a promissory note?
 
2012-06-14 11:07:29 PM
I love this thread, the way some of you are talking its like its possible to work summers during high school and work part time while in college and be able to pay for a state school. Its adorable that you think that, but that hasnt been the case for at least 20+ years.
 
2012-06-14 11:08:16 PM

PsiChick: I was on twelve credits last semester. I had exactly one hour Monday and Wednesday mornings to myself. The rest of my time was spent studying. I'm going to be on fifteen credits next semester, so there goes that hour. Your kid will have no time at all for anything, and in the summer he will hopefully still be studying, so this entire plan is based on a fantasy.


I did 18-21 credits per semester. One (1) of those credits was marching band, which required 7 hours of commitment per week.

I was still able to work two part-time jobs through college. With 12 credit hours you certainly can: 12 is often considered the bare minimum time commitment to be considered a full-time student.
 
2012-06-14 11:09:04 PM

Xcott: Borrowing $160,000 for a college degree is a profound act of mathematical illiteracy


For someone who speaks like they have all the wisdom in the world, you could at least learn the word 'innumeracy'.
 
2012-06-14 11:12:25 PM

Highroller48: you should have insisted your son carry a modest insurance policy before going into debt


A premature death rider should be built into these loans. It wouldn't cost much, as the mortality rates of those under 40 are pretty low. I don't think you'd find too many people taking their own lives or faking their own deaths to duck out on -$40K. In fact I bet there's few enough of these cases where someone dies within months of graduation that the loan issuer could just eat it.
 
2012-06-14 11:13:23 PM

pete1729: Highroller48: you should have insisted your son carry a modest insurance policy before going into debt

A premature death rider should be built into these loans. It wouldn't cost much, as the mortality rates of those under 40 are pretty low. I don't think you'd find too many people taking their own lives or faking their own deaths to duck out on -$40K. In fact I bet there's few enough of these cases where someone dies within months of graduation that the loan issuer could just eat it.


What possible motivation would the lenders have for agreeing to this?
 
2012-06-14 11:14:18 PM

Cyno01: I love this thread, the way some of you are talking its like its possible to work summers during high school and work part time while in college and be able to pay for a state school. Its adorable that you think that, but that hasnt been the case for at least 20+ years.


You will still have to take out loans for tuition, but if you work a crappy McJob in the summer and part time through the semester you should be able to pull down a good 7K per year.

If your college isn't in an expensive part of the country, 7K is enough to cover off-campus living expenses. You must then find a way to pay tuition with a combination of scholarships, Pell grants, parental support (if your parents are broke, you get more in Pell grants) and loans. In the end, you will take out loans---but you will owe more like 16K instead of 80K if you don't use loans to pay for your living expenses.
 
2012-06-14 11:16:05 PM

Xcott: Carth: If you want to call the neuroscientist MD a quack go ahead. Here is a link to his qualifications and journal articles. if you have other sources that contradict him please share.

You're illiterate. This guy does not claim that our cognitive functions are still developing in our 20s, and certainly not anything related to compound interest or taking out a student loan. That's just your misinterpretation of his findings.

I dare you: show me a single paper by this guy that says 18-year-olds are unable to understand the consequences of a loan because their brain isn't finished developing.

This is probably the most punchable excuse for moronic borrowing that I've ever heard. Why, the loan-taking area in my brain wasn't finished developing until the 22nd year of childhood development! How dare people expect me to make good on a promissory note?


Did you read any of the articles he wrote?

I never claimed all 18 year olds aren't able to understand the terms of a loan or figure out what compound interest is. I said their cognitive functions aren't fully developed and they don't always understand the consequences of their actions. This is talked about in his writing Adolescent maturity and the brain: the promise and pitfalls of neuroscience research in adolescent health policy.
He says "The frontal lobes, home to key components of the neural circuitry underlying "executive functions" such as planning, working memory, and impulse control, are among the last areas of the brain to mature; they may not be fully developed until halfway through the third decade of life "

That fact we are only now learning that people in their late teens and early twenties haven't developed long term planning or impulse control seems to suggest offering them thousands of dollars in loans to pay back in a few decades might not be the best idea.
 
2012-06-14 11:17:14 PM

Xcott: PsiChick: I was on twelve credits last semester. I had exactly one hour Monday and Wednesday mornings to myself. The rest of my time was spent studying. I'm going to be on fifteen credits next semester, so there goes that hour. Your kid will have no time at all for anything, and in the summer he will hopefully still be studying, so this entire plan is based on a fantasy.


I did 18-21 credits per semester. One (1) of those credits was marching band, which required 7 hours of commitment per week.

I was still able to work two part-time jobs through college. With 12 credit hours you certainly can: 12 is often considered the bare minimum time commitment to be considered a full-time student.


Yeah I don't want to speak to how difficult your studies are but I did 16-18 credits. After 18 we had to pay like $300 extra per hour, which just wasn't worth it. I pretty much took as much as I could depending on the configuration (most classes were 3, occasionally you'd have a 2 or 4). What I actually did was schedule around 20 credits, they'd send a bill for the overage, and I'd drop whichever class I liked least or thought the instructor wasn't good at. By the time the bill was due, I was back to my allowable hours. I'm not exactly sure of our full time requirement but I want to say it was 11-12 or so. I realized how expensive school was and wanted out asap. I don't know how some people do it that are there for like 6 years.
 
2012-06-14 11:18:14 PM

DamnYankees: For someone who speaks like they have all the wisdom in the world, you could at least learn the word 'innumeracy'.


"Someone have wisdom?"

Maybe instead of teaching me big new words you should practice using the short ones correctly.

In any case, "innumeracy" is a piece of jargon invented by John Allen Paulos in the 80s, and "numerical illiteracy" is a perfectly legitimate way to say the same thing.
 
2012-06-14 11:19:19 PM

Xcott: DamnYankees: For someone who speaks like they have all the wisdom in the world, you could at least learn the word 'innumeracy'.

"Someone have wisdom?"

Maybe instead of teaching me big new words you should practice using the short ones correctly.


I used it perfectly correctly, thanks.
 
2012-06-14 11:24:12 PM

Xcott: Cyno01: I love this thread, the way some of you are talking its like its possible to work summers during high school and work part time while in college and be able to pay for a state school. Its adorable that you think that, but that hasnt been the case for at least 20+ years.

You will still have to take out loans for tuition, but if you work a crappy McJob in the summer and part time through the semester you should be able to pull down a good 7K per year.

If your college isn't in an expensive part of the country, 7K is enough to cover off-campus living expenses. You must then find a way to pay tuition with a combination of scholarships, Pell grants, parental support (if your parents are broke, you get more in Pell grants) and loans. In the end, you will take out loans---but you will owe more like 16K instead of 80K if you don't use loans to pay for your living expenses.


try 24k a year to include tuition and living expenses while excluding summer. 7k a year for living expenses for a year? 583 bucks a month to live??? your math sucks and shows you obviously don't have a clue.
 
2012-06-14 11:31:04 PM

timujin: Isn't there something that you can send a collection agency stating, basically, "only contact me via mail and only do that if you can send me proof that you actually own this loan"?


Ostensibly, yes, however some of the sketchier collection agencies blatently ignore this law. They tend to buy loan information (not even nessessarily valid loans) and try to spam people into complence, changing their business name every month or so to avoid the authorities. They're basically HomerSimpson-esque phone spammers.
 
2012-06-14 11:32:42 PM

Carth: He says "The frontal lobes, home to key components of the neural circuitry underlying "executive functions" such as planning, working memory, and impulse control, are among the last areas of the brain to mature; they may not be fully developed until halfway through the third decade of life "


Oh, well, that settles it: he says the frontal lobe may not be fully "developed."

How about you cite a single piece of actual scientific data---not the author musing about what may be true---showing an actual cognitive ability that hasn't finished developing by age 20. What is that ability and how was it measured?


That fact we are only now learning that people in their late teens and early twenties haven't developed long term planning or impulse control seems to suggest offering them thousands of dollars in loans to pay back in a few decades might not be the best idea.


Then kick them out of college. If they lack the long-term planning abilities or impulse control necessary to take out a loan, how can you expect them to choose the right major or study for exams?

We can simply reserve college for those people who are capable of making adult decisions at 18.
 
2012-06-14 11:32:47 PM

pete1729: Highroller48: you should have insisted your son carry a modest insurance policy before going into debt

A premature death rider should be built into these loans. It wouldn't cost much, as the mortality rates of those under 40 are pretty low. I don't think you'd find too many people taking their own lives or faking their own deaths to duck out on -$40K. In fact I bet there's few enough of these cases where someone dies within months of graduation that the loan issuer could just eat it.


Most loan originators aren't looking to hold the debt for the 10-20 years most student loans last. They bundle them and get the closest they can to the Present Value and let some other putz worry about the default risk and the interest risk. There's no incentive to put more layers (and more things to maintain) on their loans.
 
2012-06-14 11:37:43 PM

BlippityBleep: try 24k a year to include tuition and living expenses while excluding summer. 7k a year for living expenses for a year? 583 bucks a month to live??? your math sucks and shows you obviously don't have a clue.


In much of the country, yes. At my university, for example, students can get a 3 bedroom apartment for something like $600/mo. That's 200 per person, leaving you with 383/mo for your remaining expenses.

If that doesn't convince you, consider that many universities have room-and-board expenses on the order of 10k per academic year. If you don't think you can live 30% cheaper than a typical residence hall, you probably aren't being all that creative.
 
2012-06-14 11:39:06 PM

Xcott: PsiChick: I was on twelve credits last semester. I had exactly one hour Monday and Wednesday mornings to myself. The rest of my time was spent studying. I'm going to be on fifteen credits next semester, so there goes that hour. Your kid will have no time at all for anything, and in the summer he will hopefully still be studying, so this entire plan is based on a fantasy.


I did 18-21 credits per semester. One (1) of those credits was marching band, which required 7 hours of commitment per week.

I was still able to work two part-time jobs through college. With 12 credit hours you certainly can: 12 is often considered the bare minimum time commitment to be considered a full-time student.


How much housework were you doing? I was at the college from 9-5. That was the only time I had for homework because the rest of my time was eaten up by various chores. I assume the original poster wants his son to do his fair share of housework...
 
2012-06-14 11:39:45 PM

DamnYankees: pete1729: Highroller48: you should have insisted your son carry a modest insurance policy before going into debt

A premature death rider should be built into these loans. It wouldn't cost much, as the mortality rates of those under 40 are pretty low. I don't think you'd find too many people taking their own lives or faking their own deaths to duck out on -$40K. In fact I bet there's few enough of these cases where someone dies within months of graduation that the loan issuer could just eat it.

What possible motivation would the lenders have for agreeing to this?


I'm no actuary, but they might agree to it if the amount of premiums collected for this premature death rider over all of the loans that choose to add it exceed the amount of the loans they discharge when somebody that took one dies prematurely. In the under 40 set, that's a pretty good risk. If you set the premium at $100 per $10k borrowed, 1 out of every 100 of your borrowers would have to die within the 10 year pay off period typical of student loans for you to start losing money. $200 is still a reasonable premium that I imagine a lot of co-signers would be comfortable with, and you'd be doing even better.

/Quick back of the napkin calculations based on CDC reported death rates for ages 20-39 show a 0.1% mortality rate for that set if you average the 10 year age groups together, .4% if you take the whole set together. So, even at $100 per $10k you'd do just fine.

/Again, not an actuary
 
2012-06-14 11:40:48 PM

DamnYankees: Xcott: DamnYankees: For someone who speaks like they have all the wisdom in the world, you could at least learn the word 'innumeracy'.

"Someone have wisdom?"

Maybe instead of teaching me big new words you should practice using the short ones correctly.

I used it perfectly correctly, thanks.


I know I'm being baited here, but "someone" is a singular pronoun, "they" is plural and "have" is third person plural.

Is our children learning?
 
2012-06-14 11:42:12 PM

Xcott: Cyno01: I love this thread, the way some of you are talking its like its possible to work summers during high school and work part time while in college and be able to pay for a state school. Its adorable that you think that, but that hasnt been the case for at least 20+ years.

You will still have to take out loans for tuition, but if you work a crappy McJob in the summer and part time through the semester you should be able to pull down a good 7K per year.

If your college isn't in an expensive part of the country, 7K is enough to cover off-campus living expenses. You must then find a way to pay tuition with a combination of scholarships, Pell grants, parental support (if your parents are broke, you get more in Pell grants) and loans. In the end, you will take out loans---but you will owe more like 16K instead of 80K if you don't use loans to pay for your living expenses.


Can you show your math on this?

I went to the University of Cincinnati and Ohio State (freshmen year only). I also misspoke earlier. I was on a quarter system, not semester, if my math doesn't add up that is why. They have since changed to semesters.

Assume you paid all your living expenses from your summer job (more on that later) this is the cost of a 4 year degree only, assuming you graduate on time and are an in state student:
Tuition- $10,784 per year
College fees(I was in business so am using that)- $900 /year
Health Insurance(required and I am assuming since you are supporting yourself mommy/daddy can't give it to you) - $1,804
Books (estimate but seems reasonable if not low) $1000 / year
Other fees (recreation, etc, etc) $1000 / year

So just your education, minus living expenses is $15,488 /year or $61,952 total. So much for that 16k loan huh?

I do agree with you making 7k a year isn't unreasonable. This is $583 a month. After just FICA etc this is more like $500 (disregarding state, city, federal taxes, which you may get back but it will be withheld). I can't possibly imagine spending less then $200 a month on food. That is $6.50 a day. Keep in mind you are working and going to classes, meeting for study groups, etc. Maybe you can make 3 $1 packs of noodles a day but at some point some time you may have to grab a few value meal items. I think we are being generous on this.

So now you are down to $300 a month. Say you get a few buddies, lets say 4, and rent an apartment or house for $700 a month. Damn you all got a deal. Only $175 a piece. Utilities might be what $60/month? Internet is probably around $45 or so. That is around $200 a month. So we have $100 left over. I guess we clearly can't have a car. I hope that job is within walking distance. A cell phone will eat most of that. I hope you don't need to ever use that. God help you if say your computer breaks. Forget maybe meeting a companion in life or going on a date. Or maybe blowing off some steam and getting a drink to escape from your hell of a life. I also hope you don't need clothes, toiletries, etc.

//I think most of my estimates are low btw
///Most schools also require you to live on campus if your parents address isn't within so many miles and buy a meal plan. The cost of that will be about 10k your first year.
 
2012-06-14 11:43:16 PM

Xcott: BlippityBleep: try 24k a year to include tuition and living expenses while excluding summer. 7k a year for living expenses for a year? 583 bucks a month to live??? your math sucks and shows you obviously don't have a clue.

In much of the country, yes. At my university, for example, students can get a 3 bedroom apartment for something like $600/mo. That's 200 per person, leaving you with 383/mo for your remaining expenses.

If that doesn't convince you, consider that many universities have room-and-board expenses on the order of 10k per academic year. If you don't think you can live 30% cheaper than a typical residence hall, you probably aren't being all that creative.


dude, i'm going off of present university sites for my info. i'm a guy that doesn't eat out at all and spend 320 a month on food. not that organic crap,either, but not frozen fried nothing, either.

and a 3 bedroom for 600 in a university town? bull farking shiat.
 
2012-06-14 11:45:51 PM

buzzcut73: DamnYankees: pete1729: Highroller48: you should have insisted your son carry a modest insurance policy before going into debt

A premature death rider should be built into these loans. It wouldn't cost much, as the mortality rates of those under 40 are pretty low. I don't think you'd find too many people taking their own lives or faking their own deaths to duck out on -$40K. In fact I bet there's few enough of these cases where someone dies within months of graduation that the loan issuer could just eat it.

What possible motivation would the lenders have for agreeing to this?

I'm no actuary, but they might agree to it if the amount of premiums collected for this premature death rider over all of the loans that choose to add it exceed the amount of the loans they discharge when somebody that took one dies prematurely. In the under 40 set, that's a pretty good risk. If you set the premium at $100 per $10k borrowed, 1 out of every 100 of your borrowers would have to die within the 10 year pay off period typical of student loans for you to start losing money. $200 is still a reasonable premium that I imagine a lot of co-signers would be comfortable with, and you'd be doing even better.

/Quick back of the napkin calculations based on CDC reported death rates for ages 20-39 show a 0.1% mortality rate for that set if you average the 10 year age groups together, .4% if you take the whole set together. So, even at $100 per $10k you'd do just fine.

/Again, not an actuary


The problem becomes then:

(1) What do you do for the fees you charged to those who lived? State insurance regulations might require you to turn it over to the debtor as a life policy they can choose to continue or let lapse. That opens up
(2) Unless you're a lender like Wells Fargo that does in-house insurance you either have to contract it all out to an insurer and pay their costs or go through and become an insurer which is it's own set of hurdles that drain a good deal of the profits.

So really it's just easier to either write off the debts of dead debtors (and get the subsequent tax break) or try to get something out of a co-signor.
 
2012-06-14 11:46:41 PM

NickelP: Xcott: Cyno01: I love this thread, the way some of you are talking its like its possible to work summers during high school and work part time while in college and be able to pay for a state school. Its adorable that you think that, but that hasnt been the case for at least 20+ years.

You will still have to take out loans for tuition, but if you work a crappy McJob in the summer and part time through the semester you should be able to pull down a good 7K per year.

If your college isn't in an expensive part of the country, 7K is enough to cover off-campus living expenses. You must then find a way to pay tuition with a combination of scholarships, Pell grants, parental support (if your parents are broke, you get more in Pell grants) and loans. In the end, you will take out loans---but you will owe more like 16K instead of 80K if you don't use loans to pay for your living expenses.

Can you show your math on this?

I went to the University of Cincinnati and Ohio State (freshmen year only). I also misspoke earlier. I was on a quarter system, not semester, if my math doesn't add up that is why. They have since changed to semesters.

Assume you paid all your living expenses from your summer job (more on that later) this is the cost of a 4 year degree only, assuming you graduate on time and are an in state student:
Tuition- $10,784 per year
College fees(I was in business so am using that)- $900 /year
Health Insurance(required and I am assuming since you are supporting yourself mommy/daddy can't give it to you) - $1,804
Books (estimate but seems reasonable if not low) $1000 / year
Other fees (recreation, etc, etc) $1000 / year

So just your education, minus living expenses is $15,488 /year or $61,952 total. So much for that 16k loan huh?

I do agree with you making 7k a year isn't unreasonable. This is $583 a month. After just FICA etc this is more like $500 (disregarding state, city, federal taxes, which you may get back but it will be withheld). I can't possibl ...


Also if your summer job is an coop that the university is involved in, which may be a good idea, the fee for that is $465 so tack that on.

http://financialaid.uc.edu/fees/costs13.html is where I got all the prices I listed except the athletic fee. We paid a technology fee and a athletic fee when I went there. I don't see the current costs of them but they were both a few hundred a quarter.
 
2012-06-14 11:48:39 PM

Ken VeryBigLiar: buzzcut73: DamnYankees: pete1729: Highroller48: you should have insisted your son carry a modest insurance policy before going into debt

A premature death rider should be built into these loans. It wouldn't cost much, as the mortality rates of those under 40 are pretty low. I don't think you'd find too many people taking their own lives or faking their own deaths to duck out on -$40K. In fact I bet there's few enough of these cases where someone dies within months of graduation that the loan issuer could just eat it.

What possible motivation would the lenders have for agreeing to this?

I'm no actuary, but they might agree to it if the amount of premiums collected for this premature death rider over all of the loans that choose to add it exceed the amount of the loans they discharge when somebody that took one dies prematurely. In the under 40 set, that's a pretty good risk. If you set the premium at $100 per $10k borrowed, 1 out of every 100 of your borrowers would have to die within the 10 year pay off period typical of student loans for you to start losing money. $200 is still a reasonable premium that I imagine a lot of co-signers would be comfortable with, and you'd be doing even better.

/Quick back of the napkin calculations based on CDC reported death rates for ages 20-39 show a 0.1% mortality rate for that set if you average the 10 year age groups together, .4% if you take the whole set together. So, even at $100 per $10k you'd do just fine.

/Again, not an actuary

The problem becomes then:

(1) What do you do for the fees you charged to those who lived? State insurance regulations might require you to turn it over to the debtor as a life policy they can choose to continue or let lapse. That opens up
(2) Unless you're a lender like Wells Fargo that does in-house insurance you either have to contract it all out to an insurer and pay their costs or go through and become an insurer which is it's own set of hurdles that drain a good deal of the profits.

S ...


This is just speculation, and I have no source, but I wouldn't be shocked if these were insured on the lender side for death already. There are a lot of taxbreaks and loopholes for third party life insurance companies. It is one reason you see businesses insure even low level employees.
 
2012-06-14 11:58:43 PM
Since there's a lot of discussion in this thread regarding financing of education, I just want to drop this option into the conversation since it hasn't come up. Most Fortune 500 companies, and many others offer tuition assistance programs which are tax-free to the employee up to ~$5250 per year. Of course it's difficult to get that first job at a large company, and working full-time while going to school is certainly stressful - it is an option and part of the benefits package often ignored (heck ... even McDonalds offers 90% up to $5k).

This was the route that I personally ended up taking. I started in a low level job for a major company, used their program to get some IT certifications that were valuable at the time and each year took more college credit. I've been working for the company for 13 years now and my BS, MS and most of my Ph.D. have been paid for this way. No, I didn't get the traditional college experience, but I was never out of the workforce either. Certainly this isn't appropriate for everyone, but I find it strange that many of my employees - knowing the program exists - still opt not to take advantage of it. It's just leaving money on the table at that point.

//CSB?
 
2012-06-14 11:58:43 PM

NickelP: Can you show your math on this?


Sure. Average in-state tuition is about $8000/year nationwide. Pell grants pay up to 5K/year, depending on your financial situation. The remainder is less than $16,000 for four years. If you don't qualify for the full Pell grant, it's because you have some other source of money.

Assume you paid all your living expenses from your summer job (more on that later) this is the cost of a 4 year degree only, assuming you graduate on time and are an in state student:
Tuition- $10,784 per year


But this is just dueling universities. At my university, in-state tuition is about $7000 (try the SUNY tuition calculator here.)

Regarding the rest of your calculation, you are ignoring one critical fact: lots of people do it, so it can't be numerically impossible. I advise undergraduates, and plenty of them manage to get through school with less than 20K in debt by living like a student and working through college. I guess those aren't the same people who argue on the Internet that it can't be done.
 
2012-06-14 11:59:25 PM

Savage Belief: Doesn't the FCRA apply here? I know my wife is one of thousands in a class action against Freddy Mac for this type of BS. His "lawyer" should be getting ready for the arse farking sans lube.


So Freddie Mac is making student loans now? Last I checked they bought mortgages.
 
2012-06-14 11:59:31 PM
All of my loan paperwork said the loan was forgiven if I kicked it. What's really borked about the system is that an 18 yr old kid has to list parental information even if their parents can't or won't provide any assistance, even housing. I wouldn't have needed loans if I could've gotten the financial aid I needed. If you're living at home though, yeah, mommy and daddy's income needs to come into play. Maybe they've changed the rules by now.
 
2012-06-15 12:04:22 AM

Xcott: DamnYankees: Xcott: DamnYankees: For someone who speaks like they have all the wisdom in the world, you could at least learn the word 'innumeracy'.

"Someone have wisdom?"

Maybe instead of teaching me big new words you should practice using the short ones correctly.

I used it perfectly correctly, thanks.

I know I'm being baited here, but "someone" is a singular pronoun, "they" is plural and "have" is third person plural.

Is our children learning?


Gentlemen, may I present you both with this: Link
 
2012-06-15 12:04:27 AM
If once you start down the dark path of student loan debt, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.
 
2012-06-15 12:04:37 AM
I'm pretty sure this isn't an issue of "I don't want to pay this anymore at all ever" and more an issue of "I have no f*cking clue how much money I'm going to have to pay and have no way of perhaps negotiating an income-based rate decrease or possible loan forgiveness with the company because I can't get them to send me any paperwork," issue.
 
2012-06-15 12:07:22 AM
If the student in question was exceeding the limits of federal student loans and needed private loans that required co-signing, chances are he was going to a private or for-profit institution. I am a current student at a public university and I could get something like 15K in federal loans every year if I wanted, more than enough to cover tuition plus room and board on campus.

/I'm lucky enough not to need loans though
//knocks on wood
/// I have heard of a few schools using a scheme where the student could take on a private loan to cover the "expected family contribution" that reduces grants, but based on the family income stated in the story the "expected family contribution" should have been damned near zero. Also the maximum federal grant is only a couple thousand per semester, nothing like the numbers being thrown around for the unknown loan amount.
 
2012-06-15 12:13:07 AM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: DamnYankees: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

Ah. So you're an ass. That makes sense.

I don't see how that's assholish. I don't know where it became law that parents need to pay for their kids' college. I certainly never had any help with my college stuff other than free room and board while I was doing my 2 years at CC.


I didn't read all the comments after yours, so I apologize if this was covered.

There's no law that says you HAVE to pay for your child's college, but the way the federal loan and aid system is setup, you're expected to contribute the 'expected family contribution,' which is based on your income. If you choose not to, your kid can end up taking on far more debt than they should have to, as federal grants and other aid can be quickly eliminated based on parental resources for a dependent student.

The flip side is that since they're attending school full-time, you (not them) receive substantial tax benefits (both by counting them as a dependent and in the form of education tax credits).

In the end, for most parents who can afford to, it makes more financial sense for them and their children to pay what they can and get the tax benefits.

Of course, once your kid turns 24, retires from military service, gets married, or has a child (dependent) of their own, they become an independent student and they get all the tax benefits, along with the responsibility to pay.
 
2012-06-15 12:13:14 AM

NickelP: I guess we clearly can't have a car. I hope that job is within walking distance.


But this is a silly objection. I've never needed a car to get to a McJob while I was a student, because most of the stores/bars/restaurants are close to campus (obviously, because they cater to students, many of whom don't have cars.)

On top of that, the university where I went to school and the university where I work both have a bus system paid with student fees, so if I really wanted to work on the other side of town I could. Not to mention that a cheapo bike gave me as much mobility as the bus, at least until some choad stole it in my last year.
 
2012-06-15 12:13:46 AM

Xcott: Regarding the rest of your calculation, you are ignoring one critical fact: lots of people do it, so it can't be numerically impossible. I advise undergraduates, and plenty of them manage to get through school with less than 20K in debt by living like a student and working through college.some hefty help from their parents. I guess those aren't the same people who argue on the Internet that it can't be done.


ftfy
 
2012-06-15 12:15:00 AM

Xcott: NickelP: I guess we clearly can't have a car. I hope that job is within walking distance.

But this is a silly objection. I've never needed a car to get to a McJob while I was a student, because most of the stores/bars/restaurants are close to campus (obviously, because they cater to students, many of whom don't have cars.)

On top of that, the university where I went to school and the university where I work both have a bus system paid with student fees, so if I really wanted to work on the other side of town I could. Not to mention that a cheapo bike gave me as much mobility as the bus, at least until some choad stole it in my last year.


how did you finance your education?
 
2012-06-15 12:15:01 AM

Xcott: NickelP: Can you show your math on this?

Sure. Average in-state tuition is about $8000/year nationwide. Pell grants pay up to 5K/year, depending on your financial situation. The remainder is less than $16,000 for four years. If you don't qualify for the full Pell grant, it's because you have some other source of money.

Assume you paid all your living expenses from your summer job (more on that later) this is the cost of a 4 year degree only, assuming you graduate on time and are an in state student:
Tuition- $10,784 per year

But this is just dueling universities. At my university, in-state tuition is about $7000 (try the SUNY tuition calculator here.)

Regarding the rest of your calculation, you are ignoring one critical fact: lots of people do it, so it can't be numerically impossible. I advise undergraduates, and plenty of them manage to get through school with less than 20K in debt by living like a student and working through college. I guess those aren't the same people who argue on the Internet that it can't be done.


The suny calculator seems to crash my chrome so I will take your word on that. That 8k per year seems to be backed up by a quick google search. It doesn't include other fees, books etc though, which will easily add several thousand more per year. Keep in mind this is an average for instate tuition. So say you live in an expensive state, you are pretty much boned. It isn't as easy as well say Kansas has cheap schools, I'll go there. As far as Pell grants, the majority of people receiving them have a family income of less than $23,000 a year (http://pellgrantqualifications.net/pell-grant-qualifications/). Even if your family pays for none of your expenses, you will have a tough time proving you are independent of them. I actually know of this happening to one girl I went to school with who's mom was dirt poor. She had lived with her for her entire life. Her dad made insane money but she hadn't even spoken to her in years. She received pretty much no support because of this. I know of another guy who got kicked out of his home during school and had to drop out for a couple of years to try to prove independence. I can't speak to your experience but I don't know anyone who paid their own way and and only had $20k in debt. The math seems to back up my position vs 'well I've seen it so it can be done'. Have you considered that maybe most of the people you talk to aren't eligible for grants so you aren't exposed to them?
 
2012-06-15 12:19:00 AM

Xcott: BlippityBleep: try 24k a year to include tuition and living expenses while excluding summer. 7k a year for living expenses for a year? 583 bucks a month to live??? your math sucks and shows you obviously don't have a clue.

In much of the country, yes. At my university, for example, students can get a 3 bedroom apartment for something like $600/mo. That's 200 per person, leaving you with 383/mo for your remaining expenses.

If that doesn't convince you, consider that many universities have room-and-board expenses on the order of 10k per academic year. If you don't think you can live 30% cheaper than a typical residence hall, you probably aren't being all that creative.


Near our university, a crappy three bedroom apartment is more like $2,500/month. If you want something nicer (e.g., with A/C and an on-site laundry facility), you'll pay over $1,000 per bedroom.
 
2012-06-15 12:20:04 AM

Xcott: NickelP: I guess we clearly can't have a car. I hope that job is within walking distance.

But this is a silly objection. I've never needed a car to get to a McJob while I was a student, because most of the stores/bars/restaurants are close to campus (obviously, because they cater to students, many of whom don't have cars.)

On top of that, the university where I went to school and the university where I work both have a bus system paid with student fees, so if I really wanted to work on the other side of town I could. Not to mention that a cheapo bike gave me as much mobility as the bus, at least until some choad stole it in my last year.


It can be a pretty good objection if you want to work in your field while you are in school, live in a city with poor transit, don't have a grocery to buy cheap food near your housing, or try to live further from your university for cheaper housing. I'm not going to argue you need a car while you are in school, but it is worth noting that budget makes it fairly impossible to have one.
 
2012-06-15 12:21:26 AM

NickelP: Xcott: Cyno01: I love this thread, the way some of you are talking its like its possible to work summers during high school and work part time while in college and be able to pay for a state school. Its adorable that you think that, but that hasnt been the case for at least 20+ years.

You will still have to take out loans for tuition, but if you work a crappy McJob in the summer and part time through the semester you should be able to pull down a good 7K per year.

If your college isn't in an expensive part of the country, 7K is enough to cover off-campus living expenses. You must then find a way to pay tuition with a combination of scholarships, Pell grants, parental support (if your parents are broke, you get more in Pell grants) and loans. In the end, you will take out loans---but you will owe more like 16K instead of 80K if you don't use loans to pay for your living expenses.

Can you show your math on this?

I went to the University of Cincinnati and Ohio State (freshmen year only). I also misspoke earlier. I was on a quarter system, not semester, if my math doesn't add up that is why. They have since changed to semesters.

Assume you paid all your living expenses from your summer job (more on that later) this is the cost of a 4 year degree only, assuming you graduate on time and are an in state student:
Tuition- $10,784 per year
College fees(I was in business so am using that)- $900 /year
Health Insurance(required and I am assuming since you are supporting yourself mommy/daddy can't give it to you) - $1,804
Books (estimate but seems reasonable if not low) $1000 / year
Other fees (recreation, etc, etc) $1000 / year

So just your education, minus living expenses is $15,488 /year or $61,952 total. So much for that 16k loan huh?

I do agree with you making 7k a year isn't unreasonable. This is $583 a month. After just FICA etc this is more like $500 (disregarding state, city, federal taxes, which you may get back but it will be withheld). I can't possibl ...


Thanks for this. Some people in this thread seem to be completely out of touch with the modern reality of college and can't grasp the concept of tuition hikes offsetting minimum wage increases by a tremendous margin. Let me repeat that, the cost of EVERYTHING has gone up at a faster rate than wages. There is no way that you will be able to pay for college and all that is associated with it with just a part time job, hell even a full time job you can actually land won't cut it.

I understand you could waltz into many places with nothing but a high school degree and land a decent job, and if you were motivated enough go to college and pay for it with a Pell grant and the money from said job. That is not the reality anymore. Not even two jobs will get you through most universities, even public schools like the UC system whose estimated totals per year run around $33K.
 
2012-06-15 12:23:11 AM

Xcott: NickelP: I guess we clearly can't have a car. I hope that job is within walking distance.

But this is a silly objection. I've never needed a car to get to a McJob while I was a student, because most of the stores/bars/restaurants are close to campus (obviously, because they cater to students, many of whom don't have cars.)

On top of that, the university where I went to school and the university where I work both have a bus system paid with student fees, so if I really wanted to work on the other side of town I could. Not to mention that a cheapo bike gave me as much mobility as the bus, at least until some choad stole it in my last year.


Good thing every university in the country is exactly like yours then.
 
2012-06-15 12:24:40 AM

downstairs: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

But he's going to need a loan at some point, and they're not going to give him one unless you co-sign. So your plan will fail to get him into anything beyond community college.


Exactly, the only thing you do by not cosigning is be an selfish asshole of a parent. Maybe if you have raised a honest kid you wouldn't have to worry.
 
2012-06-15 12:25:07 AM

FizixJunkee: Xcott: BlippityBleep: try 24k a year to include tuition and living expenses while excluding summer. 7k a year for living expenses for a year? 583 bucks a month to live??? your math sucks and shows you obviously don't have a clue.

In much of the country, yes. At my university, for example, students can get a 3 bedroom apartment for something like $600/mo. That's 200 per person, leaving you with 383/mo for your remaining expenses.

If that doesn't convince you, consider that many universities have room-and-board expenses on the order of 10k per academic year. If you don't think you can live 30% cheaper than a typical residence hall, you probably aren't being all that creative.

Near our university, a crappy three bedroom apartment is more like $2,500/month. If you want something nicer (e.g., with A/C and an on-site laundry facility), you'll pay over $1,000 per bedroom.


From http://albany.craigslist.org/search/apa?query=university&srchType=A&mi nAsk=&maxAsk=&bedrooms= a 3 bedroom looks to be in the $1000-$1500 range there.
 
2012-06-15 12:28:33 AM

BlippityBleep: how did you finance your education?


I took out a moderate federal loan, worked two part-time jobs on campus during the year, and worked at a KMart every summer. I also managed to enter the master's program a year early (AP credit,) and from then on I had the customary tuition waiver and stipend you get when you are accepted into graduate school.

Of course, the standard retort to this is that I should STFU because things are different now, but at SUNY at least you could do the same thing today.
 
2012-06-15 12:32:16 AM

Xcott: DamnYankees: Xcott: DamnYankees: For someone who speaks like they have all the wisdom in the world, you could at least learn the word 'innumeracy'.

"Someone have wisdom?"

Maybe instead of teaching me big new words you should practice using the short ones correctly.

I used it perfectly correctly, thanks.

I know I'm being baited here, but "someone" is a singular pronoun, "they" is plural and "have" is third person plural.

Is our children learning?


Normally I stay out of the salvos exchanged by the grammar warriors, but as a writer myself I have to point out that "they" and "have" are not always plural.

"they" can be used as a third person gender neutral singular in place of he, she or it. This form is most often used when the gender of the target is not known.
"have" can be used as a third person singular present tense form of had.

By leading with "someone" which you correctly identified as singular, both "they" and "have" assume the singular form. The sentence is correct as written.

/obviously our children are not learning
 
2012-06-15 12:32:48 AM

Xcott: BlippityBleep: how did you finance your education?

I took out a moderate federal loan, worked two part-time jobs on campus during the year, and worked at a KMart every summer. I also managed to enter the master's program a year early (AP credit,) and from then on I had the customary tuition waiver and stipend you get when you are accepted into graduate school.

Of course, the standard retort to this is that I should STFU because things are different now, but at SUNY at least you could do the same thing today.


1. what year was this? rates have been out of control and have been escalating more quickly recently.
2. not near every university offers free tuition and a stipend for grad school. (seriously you're pretty far out of touch on that)
3. you're being told to STFU because of your turning a blind eye to an obvious problem and you're giving the 'fark you i got mine' answer. things ARE different in most other places.
 
2012-06-15 12:37:29 AM

Welfare Xmas: swingerofbirches: College should be free

How's that working out for the Greeks?


It's not all or nothing. Sweden has much higher ages for retirement than Greece. It's also a societal attitude. By the way, California provided free college education for some years when it's economy was booming. California is almost bankrupt now but doesn't provide free college education anymore. There's good and bad government intervention and good and bad government agencies. And I think they're largely good or bad by virtue of societal attitudes.
 
2012-06-15 12:37:40 AM

NickelP:

Near our university, a crappy three bedroom apartment is more like $2,500/month. If you want something nicer (e.g., with A/C and an on-site laundry facility), you'll pay over $1,000 per bedroom.

From http://albany.craigslist.org/search/apa?query=university&srchType=A&mi nAsk=&maxAsk=&bedrooms= a 3 bedroom looks to be in the $1000-$1500 range there.


That's not where I go to school. Nice try, though.
 
2012-06-15 12:41:51 AM

swingerofbirches: College should be free, as it in Sweden. If medical school were free, we could also change the put-upon mentality of doctors ("I'm going to do what it takes to recoup my $150k investment and then some") and lower healthcare costs.


But if we do that, then all sort of poor riff-raff will be able to attend college...like negroes or hispanics! Plus how will we be able to brag about how bootstrappy we are?
 
2012-06-15 12:42:37 AM

PsiChick: Xcott: PsiChick: I was on twelve credits last semester. I had exactly one hour Monday and Wednesday mornings to myself. The rest of my time was spent studying. I'm going to be on fifteen credits next semester, so there goes that hour. Your kid will have no time at all for anything, and in the summer he will hopefully still be studying, so this entire plan is based on a fantasy.


I did 18-21 credits per semester. One (1) of those credits was marching band, which required 7 hours of commitment per week.

I was still able to work two part-time jobs through college. With 12 credit hours you certainly can: 12 is often considered the bare minimum time commitment to be considered a full-time student.

How much housework were you doing? I was at the college from 9-5. That was the only time I had for homework because the rest of my time was eaten up by various chores. I assume the original poster wants his son to do his fair share of housework...


Jumping in since I have a similar schedule. 50 hours of work and ~40 hours of school per week for the last six years. On the plus side Mrs iivel is super ... she takes care of the house during the day, goes to school in the evening and we do chores together on the weekend.

//We should both be done in 2015 ... Just in time for our 10th wedding & 15th first date anniversary.
 
2012-06-15 12:42:55 AM

FizixJunkee: NickelP:

Near our university, a crappy three bedroom apartment is more like $2,500/month. If you want something nicer (e.g., with A/C and an on-site laundry facility), you'll pay over $1,000 per bedroom.

From http://albany.craigslist.org/search/apa?query=university&srchType=A&mi nAsk=&maxAsk=&bedrooms= a 3 bedroom looks to be in the $1000-$1500 range there.

That's not where I go to school. Nice try, though.


I'm not arguing with you I am pointing out that even at the great SUNY university my $700/month for a four bedroom is mystically low and my math that shows it is pretty much impossible to finance your own college holds up even better. Based on that craiglist if you go to SUNY your $500 a month take home pay won't even pay rent. Keep in mind we didn't withhold taxes and the theoretical grocery bill is probably what I pay for lunch every couple of weeks now.
 
2012-06-15 12:47:31 AM

BlippityBleep: 1. what year was this? rates have been out of control and have been escalating more quickly recently.


As I said, this is the standard retort, but the fact is I can do the same thing today---just look at the SUNY tuition calculator I linked above.

2. not near every university offers free tuition and a stipend for grad school. (seriously you're pretty far out of touch on that)

No, I am not. Waivers and stipends are customary for graduate programs outside of professional schools. I am a professor now, and I have 3 graduate students, and they all have waivers and stipends---like all the others in the program. When I was a PhD student I had a waiver and stipend, which was normal.

If you are a PhD student and were not given a tuition waiver and stipend, it means that you weren't really accepted to the PhD program, but did not understand the letter they sent you when you applied.
 
2012-06-15 12:56:19 AM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: doglover: bdub77: And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA H HAHA


Oh wow. You're a riot. Good luck with that.

Yeah. Even at a state college, working on the side isn't going to make much of a dent in the 2 years on the community college side. Student would be better off concentrating on their studies.


I went to a state university in CA. Graduated in 2004. CC for 3 years, University for 2.

Worked a ton, got very good grades, did an internship on top of it all. Only required 11K in loans. Seriously - college is not about getting a free ride or devoting all your time to studying.

Learned a great deal about time management, and being responsible for myself.

Doing the CC / work / save thing => 4 year University transfer student is a great model and worked very good for me and a great number of my friends.

That said - I feel very bad for the father for having to deal with this. I've lost immediate family members and cosigner or not - it is enough having to deal with losing your loved one. Having to pay their large debts off must be excruciating... Considering his income I'm surprised the son qualified after cosigning...
 
2012-06-15 12:58:31 AM

NickelP: I'm not arguing with you I am pointing out that even at the great SUNY university my $700/month for a four bedroom is mystically low and my math that shows it is pretty much impossible to finance your own college holds up even better.


There are in fact 64 SUNY branches, and you chose a fairly overpriced part of the state.

Where I live, $800/mo is a 15-year mortgage payment for a house, and a very nice one at that. You can always find expensive apartments here, because there are students who come up from Long Island and will pay whatever, but rents are depressed by the fact that you can own a decent house for well under $1000/mo. In the student areas, many of these houses are converted to duplexes with 2-3 bedrooms each, so you can buy one to both live and rent to someone else.
 
2012-06-15 12:58:42 AM

FizixJunkee: That's not where I go to school


Maybe that's the farking problem.
 
2012-06-15 01:02:48 AM
I do have sympathy for the guy in the article. While I believe cosigning a loan is not one of the wisest moves to make (I can't cite it but I thought I read something like 2/3 of cosigners end up being on the hook for the loan),with college costs these days the majority of folks don't have many other options. Given the onerous terms of student loans we're trying to work things so that our kids who are college material graduate debt-free - a big pain in the short run but these days we believe that is the best gift we can give them. The results haven't been perfect but we can live with them.
 
2012-06-15 01:05:23 AM
Ok I opened IE for your calculator. Based on instate tuition at Albany, with parents making 50-60k (median NY family income is $55k http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36000.html) and the student making 5-10k with 1 student in college I get the following:


Total four year cost will be $70,108 (- the 24k you'll make we can call it $45,000). Keep in mind you are also going to a school that is 2300 a year less than average for annual tuition so if we say you are an average student that become about $55k in debt. They give you $9750 for room and board, I guess this includes food? That seems low but I'll leave it alone. So based on your calculator the best case scenario if you self finance is $55k in debt. This also assumes you'll get 7k in grants and scholarships.
 
2012-06-15 01:07:44 AM
This makes me so glad that Canada never got into the whole credit swap thing. Sure I know there are those who say Sweatervest would have, Maybe that's how it would have gone down but it didn't.

ALSO, who doesn't spend the extra $3 a month on the life insurance on a loan? Or is it not that cheap there?
 
2012-06-15 01:08:49 AM
He could just move back to Mexico.

C'mon... FTFA, he's a gardener... in California.... making $21,000 a year.

Of course he's from Mexico.

The family he's supporting is there anyway. At this point he's just blowing his money on Western Union fees and calling cards.

/What?
//Why's everyone looking at me?
 
2012-06-15 01:17:55 AM
 
2012-06-15 01:41:26 AM

bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.


Thanks for explaining that. I really didn't want to click on the Consumerist.
 
2012-06-15 02:02:46 AM
FTFA: But even with the help of a lawyer, the father hasn't been able to get a handle on just how large the loan is, or even who currently holds the loan.

This is a big part of the problem.
 
2012-06-15 02:47:08 AM

DamnYankees: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

Ah. So you're an ass. That makes sense.


This!
 
2012-06-15 02:49:13 AM

DamnYankees: bdub77: DamnYankees: bdub77: If you think it abusive in any way to suggest that your kid partially earn his way through school you are entitled to your opinion

I never once used the word "abusve". Don't put words in my mouth.

No you simply imply it. I'm sorry, what's the correct term? Wrong? So sorry I'll try to use smaller words next time.

Callous is probably a word I would use,


This, too
 
2012-06-15 03:20:19 AM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: bdub77: downstairs: bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.

But he's going to need a loan at some point, and they're not going to give him one unless you co-sign. So your plan will fail to get him into anything beyond community college.

Federal student loans don't require a cosigner, just private ones. With any luck, they'll still be around. :) And the kid should be earning money his two years in CC/university on the side, so he can afford tuition/room and board later.

Correct. Federal student loans, which are pretty easy to get, do not require a parental co-signer.

If you don't want to be on the hook for a loan if worse comes to worst, then don't co-sign.


Really? This is what you people got out of this situation?

The article I read didnt mention that he didnt understand he owed the money. He needs to know how much is owed and who owns the debt. Would *YOU* pay a debt if the person couldnt tell you how much it was, only that they were authorized to collect it?

/If so, um, you owe me money from YOUR college loans you thought you had paid off. I cant say how much or why you still owe them or why I am entitled to collect it even though you have never heard of me, but send me money today or I will ruin your credit. No, I wont talk to you lawyer, send me money today or I ruin your credit.
 
2012-06-15 05:46:56 AM

FizixJunkee: fanbladesaresharp: rengav:
Retirement funds are NOT considered in the calculation of financial need. The poorer you look, the more "free" financial aid you get (grants, needs based scholarships, etc.). The parents are considered contributing to the offspring's education EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT, so you might as well make it easier for you to get some aid and then pick up the rest through other means.

Oddly though, they still consider EFC or Estimated Family Contributions when crunching all the numbers. Even if your parents are gone (mine aren't happily) or on any form of public or retirement assistance it's on the forms to get grant and scholarship money. It takes a little off the top even if contributions don't, or can't exist. Found that out about a year ago

I managed to convince my university that I was independent of my parents when I was 18 years old (this was in 1996). It wasn't the easiest process---schools really, really doubt any student is truly, 100% self-supporting. I had to provide a copy of apartment lease, bank records, copies of tax returns, pay stubs, etc. In short, I had to prove that I earned enough money to cover all my expenses and that there was no source of unaccounted for income. Since I was, in fact, 100% self-supporting, I was successful.

\dad was unemployed and homeless at the time
\\my mom was dead


You had an apartment but let your dad live on the street?
 
2012-06-15 06:35:14 AM
www.global-air.com

The myth: college graduates earn $1 million during their lifetime. The reality: they only earn about $7,500 a year more, and they'll need it to pay back all those loans. (new window)
 
2012-06-15 07:24:43 AM
I can't feel sorry for someone who doesn't understand what cosigning a loan means. Apparently doesn't know how to make a few phone calls either.
 
2012-06-15 07:26:39 AM
What if you get your doddering grandparent to be a co-signer. And you default and gramps is in a ALZ unit. What happens then?

Serious question.
 
2012-06-15 07:43:09 AM
They were shocked to learn that they signed a contract saying if their son didn't pay the loan, the parents would have to pay?
 
2012-06-15 07:49:17 AM
Submitted by Rex van Schalkwyk of Casey Research

Compassion - Killer Of Society?

In politics, it is the idea that counts. So also in philosophy, pop music, pedantry and philanthropy. The idea is everything. And between the idea and the reality, there lies that vast uncharted terrain of promises unfulfilled, of lies and deceit and of naked hypocrisy, all of which account for the failure of the public discourse and of public life. In short, this self-inflicted deception accounts for the failure of society.

Bertrand Russell, who is said by some to have been the greatest philosopher of the 20th century, and a notable socialist, proposed that in the one-world society he envisaged, the supply of food should be used as a lever to ensure social compliance. This is what he wrote on the need to prevent the increase of the world's population: "If this is to be done otherwise than by wars, pestilence and famines, it will demand a powerful international authority. This authority should deal out the world's food to the various nations in proportion to their population at the time of the establishment of the authority. If any nation should subsequently increase its population, it should not on that account receive more food..."

In this way, the philosopher would have contrived a one-world totalitarian dictatorship in a perpetual state of starvation. Russell did not even consider where the world's food, without which people were to be starved into submission, would realistically be produced. The most extraordinary thing of all is that he could suggest such an idea in pursuit of his ideal of the utopian life. Were it not for the fact that his work, The Impact of Science on Society, is no laughing matter, it might have been read as a malicious satire.

There is a conundrum here: why is it that so many of those who enthusiastically embrace a benign cause conduct themselves with such malevolent intent? The answer in Russell's case and many others besides is that the real object of their concern is not the welfare of the individual, or of the collective, or the world, as the case may be. The real preoccupation is the idea, and close by the idea is the individual who will see self-interest as synonymous with the public good.

And so it is easy for Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger, George Soros, and others who have made their billions to adopt neo-socialist causes and to plead the morality of higher taxation because, having made their pile, they can with impunity identify with the perceived interests of the disadvantaged. They can adopt the mantle of compassion because there is no real cost involved.

The worst crimes in human history were committed in the name of the communist ideology, whose central premise was the brotherhood of men. Everyone was a comrade, except when they were not, which was practically all the time. Never included in the common definition were the rulers, although they were routinely referred to by the same fraternal denomination.

George Bernard Shaw actually visited Russia in the company of a clutch of like-minded intellectuals after the commencement of Stalin's infamous purges. When he returned to the safety of London, he proclaimed to have been well-pleased by the progressive nature of Russian society.

How did this man of letters come to a conclusion so perverse? The answer is that he traded his integrity in exchange for the acknowledgement of the intellectual establishment of the time. It was believed then, particularly among the intellectual classes of Oxford and Cambridge, that communism was the way of the future. In Major Barbara, Shaw had excoriated the wealth derived from machines of death and destruction. What better trade for a playwright of his inclinations than to feign ignorance of the depravity of Stalin's Russia. In this way he would find favor with the masters of the intellectual universe.

In a letter written to The Manchester Guardian on March 2, 1933, Shaw and 20 other fellow travelers made this observation: "We desire to record that we saw nowhere evidence of such economic slavery, privation, unemployment and cynical despair of betterment as are accepted as inevitable and ignored by the [British] press... Everywhere we saw the hopeful and enthusiastic working-class, self-respecting and free up to the limits imposed on them by nature and a terrible inheritance from tyranny..."

If Shaw were to be believed, he was well aware of the tyranny of the tsar but blissfully ignorant of the savagery of Joseph Stalin, of the ubiquitous secret police, the extermination of the kulaks and the mass deportation and starvation of vast swaths of the Russian population. On his visit, he did not even notice the ever-present apparatus of Stalin's propaganda machine.

Joseph Schumpeter, who was both a sociologist and an economist, had the measure of human nature. In every democracy, votes are exchanged for favors. As the democracy matures and as the prize of political office becomes ever more seductive, the promises become ever more extravagant. By this process the democratic bribe must, according to Schumpeter, result in government that becomes increasingly socialist. If practical proof of Schumpeter's thesis is required, it is to be found in the inexorable rise of socialism in Europe, Canada, Australia and in the United States.

Add to this the requirement of the bankers and of the lesser financial institutions to secure political advantage, and it becomes easy to follow the money. This also explains the paradox of capital making common cause with socialism. If there is hypocrisy in those who choose to ignore the contradictions of their actions, this hypocrisy is multiplied in those who regard such conduct as a promotion of the public good.

When, as Treasury Secretary, Hank Paulson went down on his knees in his abject supplication before Nancy Pelosi, the high priestess of Congress, was it for the survival of the economy or his share-option scheme that he most fervently prayed? Whose interests was he guarding when he provided his banker friends and colleagues with insider information about the imminent collapse of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae - a possibility that only weeks before he had publicly and emphatically dismissed?

The "liberated" South Africa is governed by the African National Congress (ANC), which comprises an assortment of socialists, communists, trades unionists and a sprinkling of pragmatists. The one thing that this unruly crowd has in common is its conspicuous consumption. In the process, billions of rand are misspent, unaccounted for or simply stolen. The chief in the office of former president Thabo Mbeki, Smuts Ngonyama, once proclaimed that he had not engaged in the liberation struggle to be poor. Candor of this kind is, however, rare; far more likely, a critic of government corruption will be met with the accusation of racialism.

The poor and the dispossessed are routinely exploited for the social and political ambitions of their rulers. Winnie Mandela, the former wife of the idealized former president, was convicted of the common-law crimes of kidnapping and assault. Were it not for an opportunistic appeal-court judgment, she might have spent many years in jail. Although she no longer goes by the moniker "Mother of the Nation," she still cuts a prominent and elegant figure on the many occasions she appears in public. Her kidnap victim was found dead, but her compassion is always on display: she never misses a photo shoot opportunity in the immediate presence of misery.

If the politicians and intellectuals are masters at the art of hypocrisy, Hollywood actors and pop stars have a sublime skill in the promotion of humbug. One such practitioner is Paul David Hewson, also known simply as Bono, the lead singer and lyricist of the accomplished Irish rock group U2.

Bono has turned his talents and his genius for publicity to the international populist causes of the day. He has organized many benefit concerts, eagerly supported by the "me-too brigade" who make up much of the entertainment industry. The most woebegone victims invariably attract the greatest artistic support, which is always provided for free.

For his efforts, Bono has consorted with presidents and kings and accumulated an assortment of titles and awards. Formally granted an honorary knighthood in March 2007 and thrice nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, the former Time Person of the Year has been described by Paul Theroux as a "mythomaniac"; a person who wishes "...to convince the world of (his) worth." The sociologist and political commentator Muhammad Idrees Ahmad has condemned Bono's conduct as "...a grand orgy of narcissistic philanthropy." So we have it on good authority: narcissism and philanthropy can coexist.

If the hypocrisy of the pop stars is nauseating, the grandiloquent but meaningless oratory of the aspirant political "leaders," of which much will be seen and heard in the coming months, is almost certain to produce results, the very opposite of what is pledged.

Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and others besides have fallen into the trap of bribing their electorates with promises that become ever more unsustainable. In each of these states, expectations have been created that cannot be met and that cannot now be undone. This is surely a recipe for social unrest.

These will not be the only countries to succumb to failure. The national debt, the unaffordable long-term cost of social security, health care and a myriad other entitlements and the mounting evidence of the insolvent state point to the same outcome for the UK and the US. Failure is ensured; the more pressing question is, what happens next?
 
2012-06-15 08:23:12 AM
Wow that's a tl;dr if I ever saw one.
 
2012-06-15 09:10:15 AM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: I think you need to go back and read exactly what it was that I was replying to, because you're clearly very confused.


The very first two lines of the short string of posts that culminated in your "it's not assholish" comment:

Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning


So, yea, my response to you stands.
 
2012-06-15 09:27:12 AM
Put myself through college, getting a kick out of the comments

//Parents didn't give me a dime
///Stupid me went to a private school
////Up to my eyeballs in student loan debt
//American Dream!
 
2012-06-15 09:27:13 AM

timujin: Isn't there something that you can send a collection agency stating, basically, "only contact me via mail and only do that if you can send me proof that you actually own this loan"?



EDFund and GRC have no limits, limitations nor even Statutes they must abide by in how they collect defaulted student loans. It is singularly the most draconian thing America has seen since debtor's prisons and slavery. Students have no Consumer Rights in these instances, no protections ... collection agencies for these loans have powers that make the IRS drool with envy, since, for the Agencies there are literally no-holds barred. They can fark with anything, anytime, anywhere including taking your paycheck or bank account without notice.
 
2012-06-15 09:47:56 AM
Seeing some of the responses here shock me. The father isn't asking to be let off the hook (although given his income, he cannot possibly repay it). He's asking for information. Which, given the scam of student lending, is unsurprising. There's a reason why many schools offer an expert financial aid officer: the lending process is intentionally complicated. So, to have this attitude that you do not feel compassion for a father, having lost his son, now being required to pay it back through shady practices is absurd. Grow a farking heart. The father cosigned because he was investing in his son's future. Unfortunately, he signed over his soul to the devil. The process is intentionally confusing so that they can best take advantage of people.

Yes, his lawyer is incompotent. When you cannot afford adequate legal representation, this is what happens. By the way, the Supreme Court has said that while everyone is entitled to representation, the representation isn't requied to be compotent.

Finally, contracts are required to be fair for both parties. If I recall correctly, student lending is exempt from this requirement. Traditionally, if a contract is found to be one-sided by the court, the court adds favor to the side being taken advantage of. Again, not applicable to student lending.

So really: fark off. It's an exceptionally shady practice that are becoming increasingly common in order to fund even awful public colleges.
 
2012-06-15 10:00:45 AM
What would happen if you wrote them a check and put "undefined" in the amount field?

Could you argue that you attempted to pay them what they asked for?
 
2012-06-15 10:51:22 AM
I am not following why this is news the father cosigned his son's loan his son died and now the father is liable for the loan as a cosigner the father should have been insuring that he received a copy of every letter regarding the loan. A loan can not be sold to another company without a letter being dispatched to the borrower informing them of the new lender. So what I see here is a failure on the part of the father and now he wants to try to blame the system for his lack of responsibility.
 
2012-06-15 11:09:26 AM

bdub77: Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that.


I'm surprised that you're getting crap for this, when it's actually a very generous amount of money, probably more than the expected family contribution for your income level and certainly a lot more than a lot of students get from their parents.

A common refrain among students today is, "my parents don't have money for college but the government says we're too rich for any real financial aid." It never occurs to them that maybe the government was right, and their parents are indeed able to fork over money but would rather not take the lifestyle hit.

After all, if your parents fed and clothed you and otherwise took care of you as a teenager, then they obviously had the money to do so; thus they can't really claim to have zero dollars to pitch in when you move out. But I suppose kids are used to believing what their parents tell them.
 
2012-06-15 11:22:11 AM

Profedius: So what I see here is a failure on the part of the father and now he wants to try to blame the system for his lack of responsibility.


I suppose the dude's lack of responsibility is pretty shocking, now that I think about it.

I can't fault a parent for co-signing his kid's loan, but letting your kid borrow $160,000 for a college degree? At the national average, that's like 20 years of in-state tuiton. Even if you throw in room and board, books etc, it's enough money for two full rides. It's an absurd amount of money to borrow for a college education.

This guy clearly didn't pay any attention to what his kid was doing, and certainly didn't give him any father-son advice about money. And it certainly shows that this sort of behavior isn't just a thing of young people because their "brains are still developing."
 
2012-06-15 11:37:37 AM

planes: The myth: college graduates earn $1 million during their lifetime. The reality: they only earn about $7,500 a year more, and they'll need it to pay back all those loans. (new window)


From the article:

Joel Kellum says he's living proof that the claim is a lie. A 40-year-old Los Angeles resident, Kellum did everything he was supposed to do to get ahead in life.

These horror stories always start this way---oh I did everything I was supposed to do---and end with someone taking out a mathematically illiterate loan that he or she can never pay back even with a great job.

Wouldn't it be fairer to say that this guy did one big thing he was not supposed to do? Nobody ever tells you to borrow so much money for school that you need two six-figure jobs to pay it back over 30 years. That's not something you're supposed to do.
 
2012-06-15 01:18:08 PM
I took student loans from 3 sources: federal, a small Perkins loan directly from the school, and a private loan from Sallie Mae. I never had to get a cosigner, and I was never over 21.

You people claiming that private lending institutions won't lend without a cosigner are talking out of your asses. Now according to the article this guys principle loan amounts were over 140k, it makes sense to require a cosigner at some point, even for medical students.

What I don't get is why this guy was allowed to cosign. Today he makes 21k/year and he was allowed to assure debt that topped 100k? Unless he got laid off from some high paying manufacturing job and mowing lawns or whatever (no shame, just doesn't pay much) is the best he can do, that makes no sense at all. Don't these banks do credit checks on cosigners too?

All told, these debt collection agencies are asshats and the farking feds really need to fix this problem. But they won't, they're in their pockets.
 
2012-06-15 01:36:16 PM

aharown: What I don't get is why this guy was allowed to cosign. Today he makes 21k/year and he was allowed to assure debt that topped 100k?


A better question might be: why was the kid allowed to borrow such a large amount of money, especially considering that college doesn't cost anywhere near that much money?
 
2012-06-15 01:58:30 PM

Xcott: NickelP: I guess we clearly can't have a car. I hope that job is within walking distance.

But this is a silly objection. I've never needed a car to get to a McJob while I was a student, because most of the stores/bars/restaurants are close to campus (obviously, because they cater to students, many of whom don't have cars.)

On top of that, the university where I went to school and the university where I work both have a bus system paid with student fees, so if I really wanted to work on the other side of town I could. Not to mention that a cheapo bike gave me as much mobility as the bus, at least until some choad stole it in my last year.


You do realize that the USA is a very big country and not every college town or state is like yours right? Do you really think because you had an experience one way, everyone can have that same experience?

I really don't undertand why you are being so bull headed about this. Open your farking mind and realize just because you had certain circumstances doesn't mean everyone else can have those circumstances.

I have graduated but my "college town" was a city with really crappy public transit, almost zero on campus housing for in state students and even really cheap housing was more than $600 a month for a 3 bedroom. I was lucky in my circumstances in that my dad allowed me to live at home for free, helped with tuition, I worked and still came out with $14,000 in loans. This was 2004 so I was able to get a job a few months after graduating and then finally get my own apt. I also know that just because I had one experience does not mean I think everyone does/can/should have the same.

Times have changed since I graduated but I realize that. You should too.
 
2012-06-15 02:25:38 PM

what_now: The loan's current servicer - ACS Education Services - is obligated to reveal this amount, but the father is having trouble getting the truth out of the company, a subsidiary of Xerox.

Bullshiat. There are some servicers that are shady. This isn't one of them. The father probably doesn't have the students account number, SSN, ID number etc.

There's an awful lot missing out of this story.


You're missing a very important fact: The collectors are coming after him. Not the other way around. If you demand money from me, then you sure as hell better be able to lay down some paperwork.
 
2012-06-15 02:57:54 PM

jackieeeee: You do realize that the USA is a very big country and not every college town or state is like yours right?


No, I don't realize that. I cannot fathom a university that is not within walking distance, much less biking distance, of a McJob.

I have never seen a college campus anywhere in the country where you can't find a fast food place, bar, restaurant or store near the boundary of campus. If you know of such a place, tell me and we'll look it up on Google maps.

I suppose there might be some very remote parts of the country where one cannot walk to a McJob from the dorms, but I'd argue that's a rare exception rather than the rule.
 
2012-06-15 04:05:22 PM

bdub77: Maybe you shouldn't have cosigned the loan.

Yes, it's this guy's fault for cosigning. Still, the loan servicer, ACS, should have this information.

Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

Be very careful about who you cosign your loan to.


That's either a decent troll or you're a moron/shiatty parent.
 
2012-06-15 04:29:41 PM

Red_Fox: bdub77: Plans for my kid: IF you want to go to college, here's the deal. I'll put SOME (not all) money down for you. Rest is up to you. First two years, community college (I'll pay 100%), then transfer to a real university for 2 years - I'll pay about half of that. And if you so choose, you can take the next 2-3 years for masters, same or different university - you work it out, on your dime. Now you've got your 'college' experience of living alone for 4-5 years, and a degree that should hopefully earn you money.

That's either a decent troll or you're a moron/shiatty parent.


Can someone explain how this guy is a shiatty parent for promising to pay more than half of his kid's college education? If my parents paid more than half of my education I wouldn't have had any debt.

Is this like a millennial thing, where someone who gives you tens of thousands of dollars is a dickbag because you deserve to be given twice as much?
 
2012-06-15 05:29:29 PM

Xcott: Profedius: So what I see here is a failure on the part of the father and now he wants to try to blame the system for his lack of responsibility.

I suppose the dude's lack of responsibility is pretty shocking, now that I think about it.

I can't fault a parent for co-signing his kid's loan, but letting your kid borrow $160,000 for a college degree? At the national average, that's like 20 years of in-state tuiton. Even if you throw in room and board, books etc, it's enough money for two full rides. It's an absurd amount of money to borrow for a college education.

This guy clearly didn't pay any attention to what his kid was doing, and certainly didn't give him any father-son advice about money. And it certainly shows that this sort of behavior isn't just a thing of young people because their "brains are still developing."


Yes that is correct it might be easy to blame the system and the system does have faults, but if you borrow money or cosign for someone you really need to stay on top of that. I would never cosign for someone on a loan, but if I did I would have it setup so that all matters related to the loan are sent to both the borrower and the cosigner and that any modifications to the loan have to be made by both parties. I know you can setup a loan that way, because I used to work in the area of loans. Sometimes you can even get a stipulation that in the event of the death of the borrower the cosigner is not responsible for the remaining debt.

Also people remember that if a family member dies and they have credit card debt that is not in your name and they leave you their estate you can tell the credit card company to piss up a rope because you are not responsible for the remaining debt.
 
2012-06-15 06:35:22 PM

Profedius: Xcott: Profedius: So what I see here is a failure on the part of the father and now he wants to try to blame the system for his lack of responsibility.

I suppose the dude's lack of responsibility is pretty shocking, now that I think about it.

I can't fault a parent for co-signing his kid's loan, but letting your kid borrow $160,000 for a college degree? At the national average, that's like 20 years of in-state tuiton. Even if you throw in room and board, books etc, it's enough money for two full rides. It's an absurd amount of money to borrow for a college education.

This guy clearly didn't pay any attention to what his kid was doing, and certainly didn't give him any father-son advice about money. And it certainly shows that this sort of behavior isn't just a thing of young people because their "brains are still developing."

Yes that is correct it might be easy to blame the system and the system does have faults, but if you borrow money or cosign for someone you really need to stay on top of that. I would never cosign for someone on a loan, but if I did I would have it setup so that all matters related to the loan are sent to both the borrower and the cosigner and that any modifications to the loan have to be made by both parties. I know you can setup a loan that way, because I used to work in the area of loans. Sometimes you can even get a stipulation that in the event of the death of the borrower the cosigner is not responsible for the remaining debt.

Also people remember that if a family member dies and they have credit card debt that is not in your name and they leave you their estate you can tell the credit card company to piss up a rope because you are not responsible for the remaining debt.


Kinda right and kinda wrong here. Let say your dad dies, in his will he leaves everything to you. Before you can take ownership of anything, the estate of your dad has a duty and is required by law to pay off all debts that your father owed. So if your dad had 10k in cc debt while they can't sue you for it they can sue your fathers estate to get their stuff. Which means the estate has to sell off enough stuff to pay the debt then you get what ever is left over. Now if there is not enough after selling everything in the estate to cover the debt then yes the cc companies are sol. but they can't come after you for it. The only thing they can't come after is life insurance.
 
2012-06-15 09:33:09 PM
We helped our kids in college as much as possible, no way would we cosign any loans.

This story automatically generates sympathy for the debtors, because it seems like they didn't really get the benefit of the loan. But this is one of those occasions where Calvin Coolidge's quote applies: "They hired the money, didn't they?"
 
2012-06-15 09:38:30 PM

Profedius: Xcott: Profedius: So what I see here is a failure on the part of the father and now he wants to try to blame the system for his lack of responsibility.

I suppose the dude's lack of responsibility is pretty shocking, now that I think about it.

I can't fault a parent for co-signing his kid's loan, but letting your kid borrow $160,000 for a college degree? At the national average, that's like 20 years of in-state tuiton. Even if you throw in room and board, books etc, it's enough money for two full rides. It's an absurd amount of money to borrow for a college education.

This guy clearly didn't pay any attention to what his kid was doing, and certainly didn't give him any father-son advice about money. And it certainly shows that this sort of behavior isn't just a thing of young people because their "brains are still developing."

Yes that is correct it might be easy to blame the system and the system does have faults, but if you borrow money or cosign for someone you really need to stay on top of that. I would never cosign for someone on a loan, but if I did I would have it setup so that all matters related to the loan are sent to both the borrower and the cosigner and that any modifications to the loan have to be made by both parties. I know you can setup a loan that way, because I used to work in the area of loans. Sometimes you can even get a stipulation that in the event of the death of the borrower the cosigner is not responsible for the remaining debt.

Also people remember that if a family member dies and they have credit card debt that is not in your name and they leave you their estate you can tell the credit card company to piss up a rope because you are not responsible for the remaining debt.


Not in California. I had to go to CA and settle my uncle's estate (of which I was co-beneficiary). I went over each of the debts with the attorney, and one was a credit card balance of $600 or so- and it absolutely did have to be paid as a legitimate debt of the estate under CA law. The big debt was one from the hospital where he died, about $22K that wasn't covered by Medicare. However, the hospital failed to send in a claim within the 90 days specified by the court, and therefore they were paid zero. The hospital wasn't very pleased about it, but that was also the law.
 
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