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(CNN)   Egyptian Arab Spring over. Winter is coming   (cnn.com ) divider line
    More: Scary, Egypt, Egyptian, Al Arabiya, Project Syndicate, true democracy, constitutional court, Arab Spring, University of Exeter  
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2012-06-14 07:13:29 PM  

Phil Moskowitz: and we're all savages ready to pound its head in without a second thought?



If it threatens our ability to make money and oppress people we don't like, absolutely.
 
2012-06-14 07:13:38 PM  

Methadone Girls: thisisyourbrainonFark: Elephantman: [dabloggerz.com image 450x308]

Anyone seen Kyle?

He's about how tall?


verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-06-14 07:13:41 PM  
Some people are just not ready for democracy, and need a dictator.
 
2012-06-14 07:14:01 PM  
One would think that Obama, with his expertise as a Kenyan Muslim, could swoop in and declare himself president of Egypt.

www.texemarrs.com

/how'm I derpin'?
 
2012-06-14 07:15:08 PM  

ronaprhys: No where in his post was that said. If you want to strawman folks, do it somewhere else.

idiot.



Huh? That's exactly what he said

MadAmos: If this is about keeping the government of Egypt more or less secular in nature and preventing dominance by religious elements, then I'm all for it.



So if religious people I don't approve of are allowed to be voted in DEMOCRATICALLY, I would rather support a brutal military dictatorship.

Sounds like you don't believe in Democracy at all. If they want religious elements, then democratically they should have them.
 
2012-06-14 07:15:45 PM  

Rent Party: Some people are just not ready for democracy, and need a dictator.



America first
 
2012-06-14 07:15:48 PM  

Kar98: Egypt is not in Europe


Are you dense or something? Europe had a pattern of authoritarian rule (ending around the 1940s) but somehow changed, why is that not possible in other regions? Perhaps I shouldn't have responded to you, I think basic and obvious statements are beyond your grasp.
 
2012-06-14 07:18:00 PM  
Pretty soon they'll have a literal butcher as dictator.
 
2012-06-14 07:18:07 PM  

netweavr: Probably should wait to see who the military puts in charge before damning this completely.



I think that, for a bunch of democracy activists, the bolded part might just be what they find most objectionable about the whole thing.
 
2012-06-14 07:19:23 PM  

intelligent comment below: ronaprhys: No where in his post was that said. If you want to strawman folks, do it somewhere else.

idiot.


Huh? That's exactly what he said

MadAmos: If this is about keeping the government of Egypt more or less secular in nature and preventing dominance by religious elements, then I'm all for it.


So if religious people I don't approve of are allowed to be voted in DEMOCRATICALLY, I would rather support a brutal military dictatorship.

Sounds like you don't believe in Democracy at all. If they want religious elements, then democratically they should have them.


Actually, dolt, your comment was:

So America is King and decider of the worlds affairs?

If they want religious leaders, shouldn't they be allowed self determination?

Sounds like all of you fascists don't believe in FREEDOM after all.


At no point whatsoever did the OP state that "America was the King and decider of the worlds [sic] affairs". You then promptly decided to try and use one person's comments to slander an entire country. That's a strawman, among other bits of idiocies.

Now, go troll somewhere else.
 
2012-06-14 07:20:44 PM  

intelligent comment below: MadAmos: then I'm all for it.


So America is King and decider of the worlds affairs?

If they want religious leaders, shouldn't they be allowed self determination?

Sounds like all of you fascists don't believe in FREEDOM after all.


How is America involved in this? And why does supporting a secular government make me a fascist?
 
2012-06-14 07:21:11 PM  

Rent Party: Some people are just not ready for democracy, and need a dictator.


What do you think is happening in the US? If you say anything other than Oligopoly you're dead wrong.
 
2012-06-14 07:21:34 PM  

Heron: netweavr: Probably should wait to see who the military puts in charge before damning this completely.


I think that, for a bunch of democracy activists, the bolded part might just be what they find most objectionable about the whole thing.


I'm sure they do.
 
2012-06-14 07:23:02 PM  
You right. It's a complete failure, not like when the US became an independent state and then wrote up it's Constitution we have now in just a year...

Oh wait that didn't happen at all, did it but that seems to be the bar we are measuring these countries by.
 
2012-06-14 07:24:24 PM  

TheJoe03: MadAmos: then I'm all for it.

But the people of Egypt aren't. Again, look at what happened in Algeria when the military ruled government nullified their first true democratic election since the Islamists won. Let the Islamists mess up and the people can decide for themselves if they should be reelected. What Egypt needs is a bill of rights that would prevent any party from taking away basic human rights, which would be the main worry with an Islamic ruled govt.


A valid point and hopefully what they get in their new constitution.
 
2012-06-14 07:24:44 PM  

intelligent comment below: So if religious people I don't approve of are allowed to be voted in DEMOCRATICALLY, I would rather support a brutal military dictatorship.

Sounds like you don't believe in Democracy at all. If they want religious elements, then democratically they should have them.


Didn't you listen to the right-wingers in the days after Mubarak got toppled. They kept whining about how this is a bad thing since we lost an ally for both us and Israel.

Never mind the fact it completely contradicts all the times those same right-wingers kept saying that we needed to expand democracy in the Middle East when we were busy blowing Iraq to kingdom come.

So basically the moral of the story is that democracy is ok in the Middle East only if it results in a US/Israel-friendly politician getting elected.

This kind of stuff is nothing new to me.
 
2012-06-14 07:26:11 PM  
how'm I derpin'?

Quite well!
 
2012-06-14 07:26:30 PM  

TheJoe03: Kriggerel: Military dictatorships are the natural form of governance in that part of the world. Nothing to see here, move on.

Wasn't Kings and Queens and dictators the "natural" form of governance for thousands of years in Europe?


Yes, but they grew up
 
2012-06-14 07:27:06 PM  
How long til McCain and Romney start blaming Obama and yelling that we need to start bombing Egyptians?
 
2012-06-14 07:27:50 PM  

Banned on the Run: Yes, but they grew up


So other regions can't grow up? Gotta love Euro-centric white arrogance.
 
2012-06-14 07:28:22 PM  
This may benefit the people of Egypt in the long run, since it was starting to look like more radical elements were going to take control of Egypt.
 
2012-06-14 07:28:34 PM  

TheJoe03: Let the Islamists mess up and the people can decide for themselves if they should be reelected.


Just like Iran and Afghanistan?

I think this is a shiat move by the military and judiciary, they really should've been taking better notes from the Turks.
 
2012-06-14 07:28:50 PM  
And Spring gave Summer and Autumn a miss and went straight on into Winter
 
2012-06-14 07:29:12 PM  
Declaration of independence written: July 4, 1776,

American Revolutionary War: 1775-1783

The US Constitution of The US ratified: September 17, 1787


Time from the US rebelling to the actual US constitution being ratified: MORE THAN 10 YEARS!!!


And you idiots are all "well maybe the are not ready for democracy in because they couldn't get it done in about a year".


Really, you look like complete idiots to anyone who knows anything about history.
 
2012-06-14 07:29:29 PM  

mekki: Is anyone really shocked by this? Anyone? Revolutions are a dime a dozen. It's what happens after the revolution that counts. And the majority of the times it's either the same old, same old or it's worse.

So many people look at the US and its revolution and think, "Well, it worked for them. Why not us?"

And I tell you why. The US was damn lucky. It had people in place that weren't power hungry or at least had enough people who weren't power hungry to keep those who were in check. Like for example, George Washington putting his foot down to the suggestion that as the first leader elect for the new nation that he'd be called, "Highness." His thinking was we just fought a war to kick out one "highness" why the hell would we want a new one. So many wrong people would have gobbled that up and then twisted it for more power.

The problem with spontaneous revolutions is that they are never planned well.

/yes, sarcasm


Agreed.

Franklin Roosevelt was the closest thing we've ever had to a dictator, and we were fortunate that he was, with some exceptions, a benevolent man. With the wrong sort in office and a world in the throes of war, that could've gone very badly.
 
2012-06-14 07:29:47 PM  

TheJoe03: Banned on the Run: Yes, but they grew up

So other regions can't grow up? Gotta love Euro-centric white arrogance.


It's time for them to grow up.
How is that arrogant?
 
2012-06-14 07:31:39 PM  

netweavr: Probably should wait to see who the military puts in charge before damning this completely.


Right! Maybe he'll make the damn trains run on time.
 
2012-06-14 07:31:55 PM  

Kar98: TheJoe03: Kriggerel: Military dictatorships are the natural form of governance in that part of the world. Nothing to see here, move on.

Wasn't Kings and Queens and dictators the "natural" form of governance for thousands of years in Europe?

Egypt is not in Europe.


Umm he didn't say it was. He was saying using the same "logic" Europe should all be monarchies still.
 
2012-06-14 07:32:05 PM  

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Just like Iran and Afghanistan?


I don't see the Muslims in Egypt trying to create supreme rulers plus Egypt's revolution was never an "Islamic" one. Like I said earlier, just make sure the constitution includes religious freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of press, and freedom to protest, as well as freedom for women. Then the Islamic parties can't do much to screw up this new democratic and their attempt at a free society.
 
2012-06-14 07:32:24 PM  

Old enough to know better: How long til McCain and Romney start blaming Obama and yelling that we need to start bombing Egyptians?


He didn't mention Egypt specifically, but this was a pretty interesting interview with McCain I just watched. Link
 
2012-06-14 07:33:27 PM  

Banned on the Run: It's time for them to grow up.


Well does it not seem like they ARE trying to grow up or did you miss the entire Arab spring? It might not have ended up honky dory so far but it is a first step. The road to democracy and freedom in Europe was long and bloody.
 
2012-06-14 07:35:23 PM  
So if they vote for a military dictatorship once, and live under it until the next coup, that's democracy?

You guys are brilliant.
 
2012-06-14 07:35:45 PM  

Phil Moskowitz: Rent Party: Some people are just not ready for democracy, and need a dictator.

What do you think is happening in the US? If you say anything other than Oligopoly you're dead wrong.


Oligarchy has already happened here. It's only "happening" if you aren't paying attention.

Having said that, the transition of European monarchies to stable liberal democracies didn't happen in the 1940s, it started happening in 1215 when King John's barons forced him to concede to just a little bit of rule of law, and depending on how you look at it, still isn't done, even with a full parliamentary system that operates with the grace of the Monarch.

Point being, it takes a long time to get rid of it.

It is impossible to have a democracy where there is little national identity. If the people view themselves not as Egyptian first, but rather as whatever tribe or sect they happen to belong to, then it can not succeed as they will put the needs of that tribe before the needs of the family.

See also: Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the Saudi Kingdom.
 
2012-06-14 07:38:37 PM  

Phil Moskowitz: Ego edo infantia cattus: Phil Moskowitz: Democracy can't even exist in a world that hasn't had institutional corruption for decades. There is no real human control of society left anywhere.

... care to expound upon that thought?

Democracy is a small child, and we're all savages ready to pound its head in without a second thought?


An interesting theory, but I'd like to think that ideals of democracy aren't merely a desperate flailing against a dominate, brutal and unjust human nature, but worthy goals sought by philosophers who apply empirical thought to the problem of social organization. Perhaps you were simply stating that the masses are callow, jaded, and easily led to the slaughter by amoral control freaks.
 
2012-06-14 07:38:50 PM  

The Muthaship: So if they vote for a military dictatorship once, and live under it until the next coup, that's democracy?

You guys are brilliant.


What the hell are you talking about? Do you have any idea what's actually going on there?
 
2012-06-14 07:39:13 PM  

netweavr: Probably should wait to see who the military puts in charge before damning this completely.


They've done a bang up job so far.
 
2012-06-14 07:40:30 PM  
Wanted to give props to Subby for perfect use of the Game of Thrones meme.
 
2012-06-14 07:43:54 PM  

intelligent comment below: Kriggerel: I'm OK with this.

"Democracy" is an unnatural and unwelcome form of government in that part of the world anyway.

Military dictatorships are the natural form of governance in that part of the world. Nothing to see here, move on.


Ironic that the people over "there" have spent over a year protesting for Democracy and thousands have died, and over in America, OWS couldn't even last 6 months after being pepper sprayed and evicted.

So who doesn't want Democracy again?


We USians are so indoctrinated that near on to half our population was willing to bash Occupiers' heads in for free, just because some professional loud-mouths said mean things about them. Our cops are so completely in the pocket of authority and wealth that when they get asked to go beat up some protesting fellow citizens they not only do it without question, they think it's funny.

OWS is still around -most importantly, they're trying their best to prevent all the fraudulent mortgage foreclosures the banks have been fast-tracking since Obama's "settlement" with them and Schniederman's demotion upward cut the state AGs off at the knees- but increased police responses, national coordination through the FBI, and a mainstream media blackout on the subject has certainly pushed them out of the public eye.
 
2012-06-14 07:48:03 PM  
O here we go with obamas newest excuse
 
2012-06-14 07:48:48 PM  

intelligent comment below: MadAmos: then I'm all for it.


So America is King and decider of the worlds affairs?

If they want religious leaders, shouldn't they be allowed self determination?

Sounds like all of you fascists don't believe in FREEDOM after all.


No.

No they don't.
 
2012-06-14 08:08:19 PM  

TheJoe03: Banned on the Run: It's time for them to grow up.

Well does it not seem like they ARE trying to grow up or did you miss the entire Arab spring? It might not have ended up honky dory so far but it is a first step. The road to democracy and freedom in Europe was long and bloody.


Your one post seemed to say "Europe was authoritarian so is OK if Egypt is too". Then I read the whole thread. I agree with you. Easy there, cowboy.

Growing up means not dismissing parliament.

Although....using the USA as a model, having the judiaciary circumvent the will of the people's election is a vrey democratic thing to do.

nomenclature pet peeve -- the US is a republic, not a democracy.
 
2012-06-14 08:23:22 PM  

Banned on the Run: Growing up means not dismissing parliament.


How easy did you think it was for Europe to become democratic? It's not like it took one revolution and then everything was smooth and nothing bad happened since then.
 
2012-06-14 09:12:05 PM  

Corvus: What the hell are you talking about? Do you have any idea what's actually going on there?


Yep.

The vote was nullified, and the military is in charge again.

As for what's going on this thread, people apparently think if the population votes in a military junta, to rule them indefinitely, that's still democracy.
 
2012-06-20 12:47:42 AM  

The Muthaship: Corvus: What the hell are you talking about? Do you have any idea what's actually going on there?

Yep.

The vote was nullified, and the military is in charge again.

As for what's going on this thread, people apparently think if the population votes in a military junta, to rule them indefinitely, that's still democracy.


Actually, yes.
 
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