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(Some Guy)   Drive 300 miles. Have lunch. Drive another 300 miles. Total gasoline usage: zero   (torquenews.com) divider line 133
    More: Cool, Model S, electricity consumption, paradigm shift, driving ranges, Elon Musk, Tesla Roadster, kilowatt hours, electricity production  
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6693 clicks; posted to Geek » on 14 Jun 2012 at 11:30 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-14 11:16:22 AM
I love coal powered cars!


Everything should be coal powered!
 
2012-06-14 11:37:28 AM
No new, fix old!!!
 
2012-06-14 11:39:05 AM
Apparently lunch takes 9 hours.
 
2012-06-14 11:39:24 AM
Dat Amperage
 
2012-06-14 11:40:45 AM
Does this one brick itself if you let the battery go totally dead too?
 
2012-06-14 11:41:32 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Everything should be coal powered!


This.

Just because it doesn't directly use a combustible fuel, should not imply that it has a zero fuel usage. Also, I'm sure to cause some "NUH-UH because..." here, because I really have no idea what I am talking about, but I thought that the laws of entropy mean that it's using more fuel to go the same distance since the energy is losing quality every time it changes... in this case it'd be solid->electric->kinetic force, right?
 
2012-06-14 11:42:21 AM
It's nice, but for the money it's not Volt or electric Fit kind of nice, as an all-around car. Of course, they're not marketing it as an all-around car, and that's fine.

I hate it when journalists tell me I can't imagine something better, though. Don't drag me down to your impoverished level.

/almost as bad as things that are not particularly sharp being described as 'razor-sharp'
//try harder
 
2012-06-14 11:42:40 AM
Build more nuclear reactors.
 
2012-06-14 11:42:44 AM
The SAE and other standards bodies are going to have to figure out this charging connection bit... they thought they had a good standard, and now it's woefully underpowered compared to newer forms.

This isn't going to help the idea of "charge over lunch" stations. It would truly suck to stop and discover the charger connection will work for a Leaf but not your Tesla or whatever else.

I'm sure they will get it figured out, but until they do I'm not sure I'd trust a BEV for much more than a commuter/errand car. Too much risk of the early adopters ending up needing to retrofit the vehicle and home charging station a couple years down the road.
 
2012-06-14 11:42:55 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I love coal powered cars!


Everything should be coal powered!


To be fair, some of it is Nuclear. =)
 
2012-06-14 11:43:56 AM
For reference on the "coal powered" bit - Gasoline refinery & production uses over 6kwh of electricity to produce a gallon. That same electricity will drive an electric car about 20 miles.

So with gas you consume almost as much "coal generated electricity" - and that's before you consider the pollution from burning the gas itself.

As far as lunch taking 9 hours, lv3 EV charging systems will charge most EVs to 80% full (from empty) in 30 minutes.
 
2012-06-14 11:44:41 AM
sasbazooka: I thought that the laws of entropy mean that it's using more fuel to go the same distance since the energy is losing quality every time it changes

Not exactly, but sort of. There's inevitably some loss of efficiency when you change forms of energy, but the overall system can still be more efficient than whatever other system you want to compare it to.

A train powered by a diesel rocket is pretty direct from fuel to thrust, but it's still going to be less efficient, in practice, than a standard locomotive that turns diesel into electricity and then uses electric motors to move the train.
 
2012-06-14 11:44:55 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I love coal powered cars!


I know, I know, and you're right. But this is better in the long run than not having made progress on a decent electric car.
 
2012-06-14 11:46:29 AM

sasbazooka: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Everything should be coal powered!

This.

Just because it doesn't directly use a combustible fuel, should not imply that it has a zero fuel usage. Also, I'm sure to cause some "NUH-UH because..." here, because I really have no idea what I am talking about, but I thought that the laws of entropy mean that it's using more fuel to go the same distance since the energy is losing quality every time it changes... in this case it'd be solid->electric->kinetic force, right?


"Zero fuel usage" and "coal-powered" are not the only choices.

"Coal-powered" is also almost completely false in this case. Teslas are/will be sold overwhelmingly in California initially, and there is very little coal power in California. Natural gas, nuclear, wind - sure. But coal? Only if you are recharging in West VA.

And while yes, there is energy loss during transmission/transformation, this is also true for gasoline. And the well-to-wheels energy efficiency of EVs blows gasoline cars out of the water. This has been shown time and again, but this red herring just won't die.
 
2012-06-14 11:47:49 AM

akula: The SAE and other standards bodies are going to have to figure out this charging connection bit... they thought they had a good standard, and now it's woefully underpowered compared to newer forms.


The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.

(also xkcd)
 
2012-06-14 11:47:58 AM

Bacontastesgood: Apparently lunch takes 9 hours.


You know how I know you didn't read the article?
 
2012-06-14 11:49:14 AM
I will probably never buy an electric car but I like this because it leaves more Petroleum products for me to consume. And supposedly with less demand the price should drop.
So please buy more electric cars hippies, I need cheaper gas to put into the '62 Vette.
 
2012-06-14 11:49:32 AM

akula: The SAE and other standards bodies are going to have to figure out this charging connection bit... they thought they had a good standard, and now it's woefully underpowered compared to newer forms.

This isn't going to help the idea of "charge over lunch" stations. It would truly suck to stop and discover the charger connection will work for a Leaf but not your Tesla or whatever else.

I'm sure they will get it figured out, but until they do I'm not sure I'd trust a BEV for much more than a commuter/errand car. Too much risk of the early adopters ending up needing to retrofit the vehicle and home charging station a couple years down the road.


Early adopters always face that risk, no matter the product they're trading off waiting until the bugs have been ironed out with the advantage of getting in on the ground floor.
 
2012-06-14 11:51:16 AM

BowtoMogul: I will probably never buy an electric car


... because you are 72 years old with a history of heart problems?

It's the future, baby.
 
2012-06-14 11:52:40 AM
Anybody else terrified of a 90 kilowatt charge rate?

In comparison, a custom-installed home charger hooked up to 240 volts on a 50 amp circuit can charge at 12 kilowatts.

What kind of cable is this? The cable required to pump 240v at 200 amps into my home is barely flexible - and that will only deliver 48 kilowatts.
 
2012-06-14 11:53:48 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I love coal powered cars!


Everything should be coal powered!


Even in the areas with the dirties power portfolios an all-electric car will emit fewer green house gases then a gas powered car.

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/smart-transportation-solutions/a d vanced-vehicle-technologies/electric-cars/emissions-and-charging-costs -electric-cars.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/green-living-blog/2011/jan/17/e l ectric-car-emissions

/the more you know
 
2012-06-14 11:56:26 AM
Yeah, the SAE rejecting ChaDeMo (in spite of it having thousdand of charging stations in place, tens of thousands of cars, no significant downsides, and no competing standard with a single installed charger or vehicle) was one of the biggest derp moves I'm familiar with. And Tesla introducing yet another makes absolutely zero sense.

Having said that, lv2 j1772 remains universal and has been adopted by every single major manufacturer with an EV in production or planning - Tesla (again) decided to strike out on their own (DERP), but even they have a j1772 adapter - so there's no real risk of owners having to retrofit for the home units.

Stupid SAE, though.
 
2012-06-14 11:59:18 AM

madgonad: Anybody else terrified of a 90 kilowatt charge rate?

In comparison, a custom-installed home charger hooked up to 240 volts on a 50 amp circuit can charge at 12 kilowatts.

What kind of cable is this? The cable required to pump 240v at 200 amps into my home is barely flexible - and that will only deliver 48 kilowatts.


Why are you scared of 90kw? It's still only 120V ground, assuming a standard 120/240V single phase service.

Electrical cables can be flexible, even big ones. They are just more expensive. They are used for marine shore power and temporary generators. The THWN conductors that feed your house don't need to be flexible so the expense isn't worth it.
 
2012-06-14 11:59:20 AM
Not all electricity in the US is coal powered. Some regions of the US rely heavily on coal and some hardly at all. Every study I have seen puts an electric vehicle a little ahead of a diesel and way ahead of a gas powered car in terms of green house gas emissions and based upon the current mix of US electric power generation. Here is a summary of an MIT study. More info here. If you live in a region that relies heavily on coal for power get a small diesel. If you don't and you can live with the range issues get an electric car.
 
2012-06-14 11:59:41 AM

badLogic: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I love coal powered cars!


Everything should be coal powered!

Even in the areas with the dirties power portfolios an all-electric car will emit fewer green house gases then a gas powered car.

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/smart-transportation-solutions/a d vanced-vehicle-technologies/electric-cars/emissions-and-charging-costs -electric-cars.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/green-living-blog/2011/jan/17/e l ectric-car-emissions

/the more you know


They're not talking about the emissions from the car, they're talking about the emissions from the power plant that generates the electricity used to charge the battery on the electric car.
 
2012-06-14 12:00:11 PM
Let's see...a 100 watt module is about 8 square feet, so you'd need about 7200 sq feet of solar panels to support a 90kw charge rate.

Yeah, not happening.
 
2012-06-14 12:00:36 PM
Well the base model that gets 300 miles per charge is only $70,000...so no chance i'll be driving one anytime soon.
 
2012-06-14 12:01:34 PM

Rambino: BowtoMogul: I will probably never buy an electric car

... because you are 72 years old with a history of heart problems?

It's the future, baby.


prob·a·bly/ˈpräbəblē/
Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
 
2012-06-14 12:02:49 PM
I love Fark. NO NEW TECHNOLOGIES EVER, WOOO.
 
2012-06-14 12:05:23 PM

Nurglitch: Build more nuclear reactors.


A mix of gen IV and molten salt reactors burning the waste from the gen IV and older reactors could probably be extremely safe and clean but we won't see it in the US anytime soon. Maybe China will lead the way.
 
2012-06-14 12:06:45 PM

badLogic: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I love coal powered cars!


Everything should be coal powered!

Even in the areas with the dirties power portfolios an all-electric car will emit fewer green house gases then a gas powered car.

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/smart-transportation-solutions/a d vanced-vehicle-technologies/electric-cars/emissions-and-charging-costs -electric-cars.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/green-living-blog/2011/jan/17/e l ectric-car-emissions

/the more you know


Who would have thunk that powering a car based solely upon what tiny bit of energy can be captured by the detonation of a fuel/air mixture might not be very efficient?

Coal power plants are about 31% energy efficient while the internal combustion engine about 20%. It gets worse for the ICE due to the energy required to refine the fuel from petroleum. Coal is burned as-is.
 
2012-06-14 12:08:14 PM

sasbazooka: Also, I'm sure to cause some "NUH-UH because..." here, because I really have no idea what I am talking about, but I thought that the laws of entropy mean that it's using more fuel to go the same distance since the energy is losing quality every time it changes... in this case it'd be solid->electric->kinetic force, right?


Yes but there is another huge rule of thumb here that most people don't know about. In general the bigger the generator is the more efficient it is. It's easier to optimize a huge steam turbine than a gasoline powered internal combustion engine. Thankfully the conversion from thermal to electrical potential is highly efficient (mostly because we have a lot of experience with it) and electrical transmission is not bad at all thanks to the wonders of high voltage low current transmission lines.
Larger transmissions for longer distances have also been using DC transmission to help with that too and the results have been good.
 
2012-06-14 12:08:21 PM
If there are no good lunch places within 300 miles of you, you might want to reconsider where you live.

/However driving 300 miles each way for a booty call is perfectly acceptable.
 
2012-06-14 12:13:37 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I love coal powered cars!


Everything should be coal powered!


It's mostly hydro and wind power where I live in the PNW.
 
2012-06-14 12:15:09 PM

max_pooper: madgonad: Anybody else terrified of a 90 kilowatt charge rate?

In comparison, a custom-installed home charger hooked up to 240 volts on a 50 amp circuit can charge at 12 kilowatts.

What kind of cable is this? The cable required to pump 240v at 200 amps into my home is barely flexible - and that will only deliver 48 kilowatts.

Why are you scared of 90kw? It's still only 120V ground, assuming a standard 120/240V single phase service.

Electrical cables can be flexible, even big ones. They are just more expensive. They are used for marine shore power and temporary generators. The THWN conductors that feed your house don't need to be flexible so the expense isn't worth it.


Yeah, the new THWN I put in was 1" thick hunk of stranded aluminum. It cost me about $2/ft.

Running on 120/240V would require 375 amps - insanity for a consumer to handle. I was actually assuming the installation would use three-phase power for multiple cars to charge at once. Three phases allows much higher voltages, up 30kV.
 
2012-06-14 12:16:50 PM

sasbazooka: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Everything should be coal powered!

This.

yadda yadda


guide to gas/electric total tailpipe, upstream emissions
 
2012-06-14 12:26:18 PM
Or you can get a gasoline-powered car, drive 400 miles, order lunch, drive 400 miles while having lunch. You'll end up going a lot farther at a faster average speed.
 
2012-06-14 12:28:53 PM

Tobin_Lam: Or you can get a gasoline-powered car, drive 400 miles, order lunch, drive 400 miles while having lunch. You'll end up going a lot farther at a faster average speed.


that's either a fast 400 miles or a really long lunch
 
2012-06-14 12:29:43 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I love coal powered cars!
Everything should be coal powered!


Speak for yourself. Some of us are live in the 21st century. All I need to do is buy an electric car to rid my life of 95% of my dependence on fossil fuels.
My house, last week:
sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net

My office:
sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net

The family vacation house (~100 miles away):
sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net
/top meter is consumption meter, bottom meter is production meter. 3x's production vs consumption.

And just for kicks, how my vacations are powered:
photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net
/even the outboard is electric
 
2012-06-14 12:30:42 PM
If I could afford this thing I'd buy it purely because electricity is a lot cheaper around here than gas.
 
2012-06-14 12:34:32 PM

Pixiest: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I love coal powered cars!


Everything should be coal powered!

To be fair, some of it is Nuclear. =)


All of ours is Gravity.
 
2012-06-14 12:34:48 PM

MrSteve007: The Stealth Hippopotamus: I love coal powered cars!
Everything should be coal powered!

Speak for yourself. Some of us are live in the 21st century. All I need to do is buy an electric car to rid my life of 95% of my dependence on fossil fuels.
My house, last week:
[sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net image 640x479]

My office:
[sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net image 546x518]

The family vacation house (~100 miles away):
[sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net image 640x384]
/top meter is consumption meter, bottom meter is production meter. 3x's production vs consumption.

And just for kicks, how my vacations are powered:
[photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net image 180x134]
/even the outboard is electric


I think I'll just take the money it would cost to set all that up and buy gasoline for a few years.
 
2012-06-14 12:35:19 PM

Bacontastesgood: Apparently lunch takes 9 hours.


It's perfect for the average American. The average commute is only 21 miles so you can easily drive to work, lunch, and home again on one charge. The only problem is with people who commute into major cities. There it will be more of a "how long does it stay on" compared to miles driven.

Teufelaffe: They're not talking about the emissions from the car, they're talking about the emissions from the power plant that generates the electricity used to charge the battery on the electric car.


even then you have a cleaner car. You have to factor in the zinc mining and refinement for the larger batteries to prove that a "green" car is dirtier than a standard car.
 
2012-06-14 12:40:08 PM

trashbox: I think I'll just take the money it would cost to set all that up and buy gasoline for a few years.


That's the funny part. 100% of the money for my home's solar panels came from a refinance of my house. With 15-year mortgage rates at 3.0% right now, I was able to refinance, get the money to put enough solar panels on my house to cover all my utilities for the next 30 years, and lower my monthly mortgage payment.

With the current incentives in my area, solar panels return about 18% a year on the investment. You'd pretty much be an idiot not to go for that kind of guaranteed investment. (borrow money at 3% APR + eliminate three decades of bills + get 18% APR back = solar powered awesomeness)
 
2012-06-14 12:44:31 PM
I would drive 300 miles, and I would drive 300 hundred more...
 
2012-06-14 12:45:14 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: It's perfect for the average American. The average commute is only 21 miles so you can easily drive to work, lunch, and home again on one charge. The only problem is with people who commute into major cities. There it will be more of a "how long does it stay on" compared to miles driven.


Within a big city, I use the car for groceries and other things too big to carry, or when it rains. I seriously think an electric might be the way to go, once we get to version 1.02 or so. Fark the gas station.

If I need a long-distance car I can rent one for far less than a car payment plus oil change.
 
2012-06-14 12:46:26 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: It's perfect for the average American.


No, it's perfect for the average American commute.

See the difference?

Sure, a BEV would more than cover most driving by most people. But then again, few people can afford a $30,000+ vehicle that will serve as a short range runabout. If they're going to spend that much on another vehicle, it's going to be something for utility (beater truck for chores) or for fun (sports car). There's not a long line of people looking to have one of the two cars be that limited... not at that price.

Eventually prices will drop. The day you can get a BEV for within a couple or four thousand bucks of a similarly sized runabout people will be buying them for those purposes... a second vehicle (if you need to drive farther, you swap cars with the spouse) or third vehicle (with a pickup or whatever to handle the longer distances and chore tasks). But that day isn't here yet.

The problem is that "good enough for most driving" isn't the real metric buyers are using. They're also looking at the overall price of the thing as well as the likelihood of having issues on those days when more range is needed.

I fully expect BEV, extended range EVs, alternative fuels, and traditional gas and diesel will be coexisting in the future- no one answer will solve every part of the transportation issue. But with more choices more people will find something that works for them.
 
2012-06-14 12:46:44 PM

trashbox: I think I'll just take the money it would cost to set all that up and buy gasoline for a few years.


That's a big mistake. You never go up against MrSteve007 when solar is on the line.
 
2012-06-14 12:47:22 PM

madgonad: max_pooper: madgonad: Anybody else terrified of a 90 kilowatt charge rate?

In comparison, a custom-installed home charger hooked up to 240 volts on a 50 amp circuit can charge at 12 kilowatts.

What kind of cable is this? The cable required to pump 240v at 200 amps into my home is barely flexible - and that will only deliver 48 kilowatts.

Why are you scared of 90kw? It's still only 120V ground, assuming a standard 120/240V single phase service.

Electrical cables can be flexible, even big ones. They are just more expensive. They are used for marine shore power and temporary generators. The THWN conductors that feed your house don't need to be flexible so the expense isn't worth it.

Yeah, the new THWN I put in was 1" thick hunk of stranded aluminum. It cost me about $2/ft.

Running on 120/240V would require 375 amps - insanity for a consumer to handle. I was actually assuming the installation would use three-phase power for multiple cars to charge at once. Three phases allows much higher voltages, up 30kV.


Why is 375 insanity to handle? Welding machines can run higher than that and a battery charger running at that current would not have an exposed arc.

A battery can only be charged with DC current above the utilization voltage. A battery charger takes what ever type of electricity they are designed to run on and converts it to DC. So it doesn't matter if the input power is 3 phase 480 or single phase 120, it puts out high current DC. At a given KW rating the output current will be the same no matter the input voltage/current/phasing.

I do not know what voltage Tesla batteries/motors operate at or how the batteries are arranged. Tesla motors website says between 250-475 vdc. At 90KW the DC current would be 180A, assuming 475vdc. It doesn't matter what the input voltage to the charger is. There will be 180A flowing inside the car.
 
2012-06-14 12:47:46 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus:
even then you have a cleaner car. You have to factor in the zinc mining and refinement for the larger batteries to prove that a "green" car is dirtier than a standard car.


In that case you have to factor in oil spill cleanup costs and other environmental costs for gasoline cars, as well as costs associated with Middle East entanglement, etc.
 
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