On my budget I can only afford chords that are flat or diminished.

Somebody should put together a group of people to analyze current songs and identify their attributes. It could be like a musical genome project or something.

dc999: rmcooper4:

I object to this. OK, yeah, maybe it's more common to go from Em to Am rather than to A, but I shouldn't have to construct an academic argument for playing Em-A. I should just play it if it sounds 'right' within the context of what I'm writing.

I guess I would say it's not necessarily about making an academic argument so much as it is having an idea about what is more likely to work. If you just try random combinations until you get something that sounds good, you're going to be going at it a long time, and when you finally get something that sounds good, you're likely to be reinventing the wheel.

None of these things are new. People have been studying music for a long time. Breaking rules is great, but as they say, you should learn the rules before you can break em.

I don't disagree. I'm not suggesting shunning music theory. I actually love music theory and find it very helpful when I'm working out songs. But I don't see his approach as based in music theory (And I think this is intentional because he seems to suspect most readers don't know anything about music theory). He's suggests throughout an approach to songwriting based on statistics. To me using theory as a guide for musical expression requires quite a different mindset than writing to fit the data. In my opinion, the former approach is a useful guide to expressing emotion and ideas. The latter may end up producing the same results, but a song is just as much a process as it is a product. Statistical songwriting to me is a process that is sterile and devoid of feeling and is a disingenuous approach to creating music.

/just my $.02

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: emonk: After spending 15 seconds on a guitar just now, I find that singing in C is easy and fun.

And singing in A is, like, work.

Also, barred F is easier to do than open A because I have big fingers.

But that's just me.

I can't bar a chord to save my life. Something farked up in my hands...I do NOT have the grip strength.

If I hold a wrench for more than about 3 minutes, I end up damn near in tears from the cramping.

Any fark MD's care to tell me what's wrong with me?

I have the same problem. Strength exercises don't work, because I don't think it's a muscle strength issue. It feels like it is more of a blood pressure issue or something. Like maybe not enough blood is reaching the extremities, which means the muscles aren't getting enough oxygen for prolonged exercises.

My hands often cramp up when writing, and even sticky doorknobs can give me trouble. I can't play guitar for more than 3 minutes straight without horrible cramping, but I can lift a ton of weight with my arms. My arms and hands are also more prone to fall asleep that other people. I'm sure it's something medical, probably dealing with bloodflow.

Also, dc999, I just saw the post where you said you authored this. Womp womp on me for poor reading. Anyway, I do want to reiterate that I think your findings are interesting and appreciate you taking the time to do this. My only concern is about the implications for applying quantitative data to something like songwriting.

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: emonk: After spending 15 seconds on a guitar just now, I find that singing in C is easy and fun.

And singing in A is, like, work.

Also, barred F is easier to do than open A because I have big fingers.

But that's just me.

I can't bar a chord to save my life. Something farked up in my hands...I do NOT have the grip strength.

If I hold a wrench for more than about 3 minutes, I end up damn near in tears from the cramping.

Any fark MD's care to tell me what's wrong with me?

I played for years before I broke the shiat out of my right hand. Still find time to play occasionally. Have you tried slightly rolling the fretboard fingers 20 degrees or so counterclockwise? Baring correctly should be near effortless. Use the small bit of leverage you can get using the side of your first finger.

Ymmv.
/csb?

bdub77: I wrote a version of Nirvana's Rape Me that went like this:

I only know three chords, ohhhhh
I only know three chords, ohhhhh
I only know three chords, ohhhhh
I only know three chords....

You can also play like 12 other Nirvana songs on the same chord structure.

You sure can- but you'll never achieve the success or the money that they achieved, because you aren't Nirvana.

Next...

Harry_Seldon: You know...for songs...

[onlineguitar.info image 454x441]

Counting the mezzanine.

/Nice work dc999!

NetOwl: It could be a coincidence that a lot of my favorite stuff to play is in a minor.

Gotta have some fun and mess with the progression. Love wierd sources for chord progressions. Fave experiment years ago involved taking dolphin speech and slowing it down some 32x to create piano melodies. Newest experiments are brain waves hooked up to a mathematical adder and runs the midi on my studio. Japan is doing it but mine sounds entirely different from theirs. Good times....

So, I would use an Amaj. (actually an Amaj⁷)in the key of Cmaj. [following the Emin (iii)] in a modulation to the key of Dmin. basically using the Amaj⁷ as a V⁷ of the ii, recasting the Dmin as the i.

Are you going to get to diatonic elaboration of static harmonies in the future?

/good job dc999

bdub77: I wrote a version of Nirvana's Rape Me that went like this:

I only know three chords, ohhhhh
I only know three chords, ohhhhh
I only know three chords, ohhhhh
I only know three chords....

You can also play like 12 other Nirvana songs on the same chord structure.

Except Rape Me, (and Teen Spirit intro/verse etc) clearly use *four* chords, a E-A-G-C pattern (modulo key). You'd need to be basically tone-deaf not to notice that, particularly as the 4-note bass lines of each song are the tonics of each of those chords. So nice try...

Seriously? No one's linked 4 chord song yet?

dc999: I know this stuff obviously isn't news to anyone who knows music theory. This was meant to be an introduction.

I've been teaching myself guitar and I have found various chords that end up sounding really good together but didn't know why. I'll probably have to re-read some of what you wrote about to really get it, but I appreciate the effort just the same.

Most guitarists can't even keep all their frets in tune. To B-modal.



_/drummer

The whole thing makes me want to go listen to King Crimsons Starless and Bible Black CD. Need some whole tone scales I guess....
"Cigarettes...ice cream....figurines of the virgin Mary"

This guy was pretty good too:



Fun tidbits:
1. The alto line mirrors the soprano
2. The bass notes in m.2 and 3 are the same as the alto notes in m.1
3. The tenor notes in m.2 and 3 are the same, in reverse, and the beginning and ending notes of the soprano in m.2 and 3.

Oh yeah...and the entire 4 hour piece is basically derived from these first four measures. Lest you think it's all academic, it's also one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written.

mekkab: Most guitarists can't even keep all their frets in tune. To B-modal.



/drummer

Mekkab's heart was full of hatred

To the Farker(s) with the hand issues: Do you have odd posture or any neck problems? I had issues with numbness and pain in my left hand (from pipetting, not guitar, because I'm a nerd) that was tested for carpel tunnel. Turned out to be a pinched nerve in my neck that some PT (and not sitting like a cave troll) resolved.
/Plant doctor (in training), not people doctor. YMMV.

nekom: gilgigamesh: Looks like he discovered the ubiquity of the I - IV - V chord progression in popular music.

Alert the media.

This. That's precisely what I would have expected to find. Except I wouldn't have even bothered to do that.

That's what I made of it, too. I kept wondering what his great insight was.

Be carefull.....
I once read a Sci-Fi story about the mad scientist who analysed all the "earworm" songs ( the ones that get stuck in your head for days )... using the chord progression and toe-tapping bits from all of these he invented the "perfect" song.
Trouble was , after you heard it once, you couldn't EVER get it out of your head

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: emonk: After spending 15 seconds on a guitar just now, I find that singing in C is easy and fun.

And singing in A is, like, work.

Also, barred F is easier to do than open A because I have big fingers.

But that's just me.

I can't bar a chord to save my life. Something farked up in my hands...I do NOT have the grip strength.

If I hold a wrench for more than about 3 minutes, I end up damn near in tears from the cramping.

Any fark MD's care to tell me what's wrong with me?

I've been playing bass for almost 20 years and recently started to get serious about my guitar playing, bought my own guitar, and started practicing. The skill differences in different areas is annoying and amusing. Zillion-bpm palm-muted single note or root-fifth chord speed metal riff? No problem. Change between a regular chord and a bar chord while strumming on a simple pop song? FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Watch out that you don't find the ultimate melody and get stuck in the world of forms.

(hopefully not TOO obscure)

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: emonk: After spending 15 seconds on a guitar just now, I find that singing in C is easy and fun.

And singing in A is, like, work.

Also, barred F is easier to do than open A because I have big fingers.

But that's just me.

I can't bar a chord to save my life. Something farked up in my hands...I do NOT have the grip strength.

If I hold a wrench for more than about 3 minutes, I end up damn near in tears from the cramping.

Any fark MD's care to tell me what's wrong with me?

There's a trick to it: Put your finger ON the fret, then roll it down the board just enough to get behind the fret. You don't need a ferocious grip to do this, just the right placement. And it takes a good bit of practice, especially if you need to slide into it quickly in the middle of a progression.

It also goes without saying, if you're going to use the same barre throughout, just put a capo on.

DORMAMU: NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: emonk: After spending 15 seconds on a guitar just now, I find that singing in C is easy and fun.

And singing in A is, like, work.

Also, barred F is easier to do than open A because I have big fingers.

But that's just me.

I can't bar a chord to save my life. Something farked up in my hands...I do NOT have the grip strength.

If I hold a wrench for more than about 3 minutes, I end up damn near in tears from the cramping.

Any fark MD's care to tell me what's wrong with me?

Too much fapping?

Jk

Is it in the hands/fingers or the wrist.... The pain I mean?

If wrist, could be carpo tunnel

I was going to suggest to little, not too much. And I believe you mean capo tunnel.

dc999: Hey guys. I'm the guy that did the analysis.

I know this stuff obviously isn't news to anyone who knows music theory. This was meant to be an introduction. There's obviously a lot that can be done, and I'll be looking at more interesting relationships between chords soon.

It may be obvious to those of us with training, but I think your average guitar player might have trouble explaining why A minor chords are more common than A major chords in songs written in C. If you've ever read the forums of people asking questions on guitar forums, you're probably well aware that this is true.

I also have a feeling most people wouldn't know that if they use a iii chord in their song, that they should probably use a IV or a vi next.

If you've got any suggestions for future things to look at in the data, I'm definitely interested in hearing what you've got to say.

No offence intended. You're right, this is going to be old hat to a lot of music nerds, but obscure to most other people. I guess we thought TFA was meant for music nerds, and from that perspective the gain isn't clear.

I'm personally interested in common but nonstandard progressions. What I mean is, although a lot of people will use the same one or two standard progressions, some will use others, but I figure there's only a handful of those nonstandard ones that will serve for most popular Western music, and I'm curious what nonstandard progressions are most popular.

I was raised on psych folk, progrock, and offbeat offerings such as Steely Dan, so I've always been interested in alternative approaches to popular music.

I was surprised at the infrequent use of the bVII chord (at 2% in the second section).

This was a great read that goes through 3 and 4 chord songs and then beyond it, eventually to flat degree chords and reverse polarity (major to minor and vice versa, e.g. in C major, E instead of Em). All in the context of popular music.


/linky (pops)

Benjimin_Dover: Somebody should put together a group of people to analyze current songs and identify their attributes. It could be like a musical genome project or something.

I've had a theory for many years that people -- here meaning individual listeners -- are inclined to prefer songs that match their 'head tone,' the distinctive harmonic resonance of their own skull. No, I'm not joking. I've been planning a little study on it for some time now, and consulted with a music teacher to help me with the analysis. My hypothesis is that I'll find a trend of one or several compatible keys in the songs that people say they like most.

I believe it likely explains why, for example, I don't like some songs that seem to me like the kind of song I would normally like, and like some others that seem to me like the kind I wouldn't normally like.

And I freely admit this all started with me wanting to write a song for a girl and trying to decide what key to use.

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: emonk: After spending 15 seconds on a guitar just now, I find that singing in C is easy and fun.

And singing in A is, like, work.

Also, barred F is easier to do than open A because I have big fingers.

But that's just me.

I can't bar a chord to save my life. Something farked up in my hands...I do NOT have the grip strength.

If I hold a wrench for more than about 3 minutes, I end up damn near in tears from the cramping.

Any fark MD's care to tell me what's wrong with me?

I'm sure other people have answered, but I'll throw in my guess. First, I have the same cramping problems that you do. It's not wrist strength, it's that when I try to use my hands for something like that, it causes the muscles to go haywire and cramp up. Probably related to a muscle condition in my family, but who knows.

That said, I can play bar chords on a guitar for about ten hours straight with no issues.

I'd say it's highly, highly likely that you're pressing way too hard on the bar chords. As with almost any chord on the guitar, if you are positioning your fingers correctly (see note later for correctly), you don't have to use very much pressure at all. Make a bar chord as you currently do, but slacken your hand so that you feel almost no "strain" in the shape you're making. Press down as lightly as you possibly can. Play the strings. Keep trying that, pressing harder each time, until you first get a semi-clear chord out of it. Practice using that lightness.

Other things you really should look at (btw, if you're a guitar pro, forgive me for saying some obvious things):

1) What type of strings are you using? Try switching to extra light strings.
2) Is it possible the strings on your guitar are set incorrectly? If you find yourself having to regularly push down hard (or squeeze tightly to make a bar chord), it's quite possible you need to get your guitar adjusted. While some people can prefer high action, if it's giving you trouble, look at getting that fixed, first.
3) What type of guitar do you have? One of the things people miss is that guitars have very, very different neck types, and not all guitars are suited for everyone. As a great example, I have an old Masada acoustic that almost literally requires a giant to play it properly. I've been playing guitar for decades and I can make any instrument sound good for the most part, but to make a bar chord on that guitar feels like I'm trying to strangle a large cow. The neck is that damned wide. On the other hand, if you pick up something like a Fender Squire (as a cheapie, and a few lower Strats), or a BC Rich Mockingbird ST, you may find it incredibly, incredibly easy to make chords that otherwise were nearly impossible for you. The necks are that different from other guitars.
4) Guitar teachers, forgive me for a moment on this one: Unless you are trying to learn to play like Segovia or even Buckethead, don't ever make a chord in a position your hand is uncomfortable, no matter what the "right way to do it" is. This is especially true for bar chords. Very few of the fingerings I use are standard, and it's precisely because my hands are small, and because it hurts if I try to grasp too hard -- I spent a long time figuring out what worked with my hand structure and went from there. I'm capable of playing songs that many guitar teachers can't (with the exception of the few with 8 fret to 10 fret finger stretchers from mutants), specifically because I took the basics but adapted them to myself, went from there, and practiced. Once you eliminate "fighting" with an instrument to do things, you tend to be able to do anything you want on it, within reason.
5) If you have the money, buy one of those little crap travel guitars that fit in a backpack. Practice on those. You'll find it easier to play, and that will almost always transfer over to a "regular" guitar.

Nixon, one other thing, be sure you are not gripping the neck with your thumb tightly. That's the easiest way to tire out your hand. If you're playing something like Jimi where you'll be using the thumb for the top string for bass drones, fine, wrap that thumb around, but otherwise, make sure it's either lightly touching the neck, or not touching the neck at all (or resting against the side, if your fingers are longer). If you're making a bar chord correctly, you don't need the thumb to give extra strength. It should be a "press" not a "grip."

Tonic, fifth, relative minor, fourth

rinse and repeat, lying naked on the floor

dave2198: NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: emonk: After spending 15 seconds on a guitar just now, I find that singing in C is easy and fun.

And singing in A is, like, work.

Also, barred F is easier to do than open A because I have big fingers.

But that's just me.

I can't bar a chord to save my life. Something farked up in my hands...I do NOT have the grip strength.

If I hold a wrench for more than about 3 minutes, I end up damn near in tears from the cramping.

Any fark MD's care to tell me what's wrong with me?

I have the same problem. Strength exercises don't work, because I don't think it's a muscle strength issue. It feels like it is more of a blood pressure issue or something. Like maybe not enough blood is reaching the extremities, which means the muscles aren't getting enough oxygen for prolonged exercises.

My hands often cramp up when writing, and even sticky doorknobs can give me trouble. I can't play guitar for more than 3 minutes straight without horrible cramping, but I can lift a ton of weight with my arms. My arms and hands are also more prone to fall asleep that other people. I'm sure it's something medical, probably dealing with bloodflow.

I'm not a music teacher, so take this for what you paid for it, but I believe you're using the wrong part of your finger. Don't use the fleshy front part of your finger, use the body side of your finger. To set the barre, place your finger across the fret itself, fleshy side down (against the fret). Then roll your finger a quarter turn down the board, so that it's resting just behind the fret, with the bony side pressed against the board. You will need to practice this a good bit. Eventually, you should be able to just hit it in the right place without rolling, which you'll need to be able to do during rapid progressions.

I guess this is as good a thread as any to ask:

What would all you guitar gods recommend for a total noob to learn to play? I've got a guitar, which I've never actually used. I do read music, although I haven't played anything for years. Any books or series or reccomendations for me? I don't want to join a band or anything, just to be able to get a few songs out without looking like a tool.

mekkab: Most guitarists can't even keep all their frets in tune. To B-modal.



/drummer

Q: What do you throw a drowning guitarist?
A: His amp.

/musician joke thread? come on!

Olympus Mons: The whole thing makes me want to go listen to King Crimsons Starless and Bible Black CD. Need some whole tone scales I guess....
"Cigarettes...ice cream....figurines of the virgin Mary"

For some reason, it's odd to me that you picked the only lyric Fripp himself ever wrote for the band.

gilgigamesh: Looks like he discovered the ubiquity of the I - IV - V chord progression in popular music.

Alert the media.

You mean what every first year music student learns in music theory?

Shocking, isn't it?

Next they'll report that certain post 1900's musicians have branched out into I, V, vi, iii, IV, I, IV, V

/I'm getting a kick out of this thread because for my senior project back in 1997 I wrote a computer program that would analyze 8 measure samples of J.S. Bach's music (condensed to piano score) and then write variations on that.

FitzShivering: NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: emonk: After spending 15 seconds on a guitar just now, I find that singing in C is easy and fun.

And singing in A is, like, work.

Also, barred F is easier to do than open A because I have big fingers.

But that's just me.

I can't bar a chord to save my life. Something farked up in my hands...I do NOT have the grip strength.

If I hold a wrench for more than about 3 minutes, I end up damn near in tears from the cramping.

Any fark MD's care to tell me what's wrong with me?

I'm sure other people have answered, but I'll throw in my guess. First, I have the same cramping problems that you do. It's not wrist strength, it's that when I try to use my hands for something like that, it causes the muscles to go haywire and cramp up. Probably related to a muscle condition in my family, but who knows.

That said, I can play bar chords on a guitar for about ten hours straight with no issues.

I'd say it's highly, highly likely that you're pressing way too hard on the bar chords. As with almost any chord on the guitar, if you are positioning your fingers correctly (see note later for correctly), you don't have to use very much pressure at all. Make a bar chord as you currently do, but slacken your hand so that you feel almost no "strain" in the shape you're making. Press down as lightly as you possibly can. Play the strings. Keep trying that, pressing harder each time, until you first get a semi-clear chord out of it. Practice using that lightness.

Other things you really should look at (btw, if you're a guitar pro, forgive me for saying some obvious things):

1) What type of strings are you using? Try switching to extra light strings.
2) Is it possible the strings on your guitar are set incorrectly? If you find yourself having to regularly push down hard (or squeeze tightly to make a bar chord), it's quite possible you need to get your guitar adjusted. While some people can prefer high action, if it's giving you trouble, look at getting th ...

You just reminded me, the Bel-Ray method can help with this, too: The rock 'n' roll death clutch is a bad way to grip a neck, however popular it is. Instead, place your thumb on the back of the neck, and leave the rest of your hand free for fingering: don't throttle the neck, but lightly pinch it instead. This is a difficult adaptation if you've already been using the popular but inefficient choke method for awhile, but the benefits are worth it. And it may also feel effete to you -- maybe some of your friends will even laugh at you -- but you don't see a lot of people laughing at masters like Robert Fripp who use it all the time.

Also, if you don't mind "modern" classical music, check out John Corigliano's "Fern Hill" for some really rich, unique chords and progressions.

Yamaneko2: Former church organist here.

Perhaps something on the use of violations of the rules would be interesting.

For example, the spiritual "Were you there?" (transposed to G)

G / G / Bm / Am / D / G / C / G
Were you / there / when they / crucif- / ied my / Lo - / -o- / rd

G / Bm / G / C / G / D / D / (tacit)
Were you / there / when they / crucif- / ied my / Lo - / -ord /

G / C / G (rit.)

Oh / O-oh / Oh!....

C / G / B / Em / C / G / C / D
Some / times it / causes / me to / tremble / tremble / trem- / ble

C / G / Em / Am7 / D / G / C / G
Were you / there / when they / crucif- / ied my/ Lo - / -o- / -ord

That B chord used for "causes" is unusual, but it just sounds right. Also, for some reason the chord changes take place every 2 or 4 beats except in the "Sometimes" line. Also, the entire song is on the pentatonic scale except for the "you" in the last line.

Granted, the origin of "Were you there?" may be more crowdsourcing than individual composition.

I can actually explain this. This progression a great example of a song that doesn't violate any harmonic rules.

The song is in G major so E minor is the relative minor. That B major chord here is acting as a V chord that resolves to that vi. It's called a secondary dominant and would be notated V/vi

This kind of thing is super common in pop too, and if you look at the plot of most frequent chords in my article they are right on there. In C major the V/vi is E major. The V/V (D major) is another really common secondary dominant. The data from my analysis shows that these 2 chords come right after the standard diatonic chords in terms of popularity.

If I ran the statistics on the chords that were likely to come next in a progression, it would reflect their very particular function. Most chords would sound terrible to our ears and knowing the theory takes the guess work out of what to play.

A great example of statistics shining a light on concepts in theory people might not have been aware of. Thanks for bringing it up.

Sylvia_Bandersnatch:
You just reminded me, the Bel-Ray method can help with this, too: The rock 'n' roll death clutch is a bad way to grip a neck, however popular it is. Instead, place your thumb on the back of the neck, and leave the rest of your hand free for fingering: don't throttle the neck, but lightly pinch it instead. This is a difficult adaptation if you've already been using the popular but inefficient choke method for awhile, but the benefits are worth it. And it may also feel effete to you -- maybe some of your friends will even laugh at you -- but you don't see a lot of people laughing at masters like Robert Fripp who use it all the time.

This is very close to what I do. I tend to find that any effete appearance it gives off is typically demolished when being able to switch from heavy metal to a blazing, clean Fur Elise, to a flamenco tune, or even some old Doc Watson. Leaving the fingers available in this way just makes everything easier.

Now, if people want to make fun of me, they should for the three very distinct fingerpicking styles I have, namely one on Watson's old "using only the thumb and pointer" finger (which is incredibly hard), another being four fingers with the pinky permanently pressed down on the pick guard (yes, this looks funny!), and all five fingers dangling above the strings (not in a laying over the string fashion) for the hardest classical work

/older folk/country players kicked the ass of a lot of new guitarists, technically. Watson is harder than Malmsteem, IMO.

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: mekkab: Most guitarists can't even keep all their frets in tune. To B-modal.



/drummer

Q: What do you throw a drowning guitarist?
A: His amp.

/musician joke thread? come on!

What do you call a guy who like to hang out with musicians?
A drummer.