It's pretty much over. The Germany and France will use the money for Greece to bailout French banks holding the bad debt. Greece will vote in super socialists that will destroy the economy. Money will gush out of their economy, and Greece will become a third world hellhole once the government can't get the money to fund it's welfare programs. On the bright side, greek yogurt and feta cheese prices should plummet.

WTF Indeed: and Greece will become a third world hellhole

So are you saying nothing will change?

Is this the national equivalent of going to the grocery store before a big storm hits to get bread and milk?

Honestly, germany and france need to team up, and slap a biatch.

WTF Indeed: It's pretty much over. The Germany and France will use the money for Greece to bailout French banks holding the bad debt. Greece will vote in super socialists that will destroy the economy.

well actually, their economy is already pretty destroyed. Greece is experiencing a depression and has been for a few years. Currently unemployment in Greece is 21.9%, about what it was at the peak of the Great Depression in the US.

The economy has been destroyed by the people currently running it. If the socialists win, will things get worse? Yeah probably for the next year, but Greece NEEDS to be unteathered from the Euro so it can return to competitiveness (they need to devalue their currency vs europe, but they can't if they're on the Euro). They also NEED to default on their debt. All these "rescue" packages are just the ECB sending money to Greece so they can pay the money they owe to banks in Germany and France. Leaving the Euro would crush the Greek banking sector to powder and cause massive disruption, but the Greek banking sector is already getting crushed by capital flight and not leaving the Euro basically guarantees that Greeks live in misery for the next 20 years.

Remember what happened when Europe put punishing austerity on Germany after WW I? A return to Greek fascism is a real possibility.

Once established, it can easily spread to other troubled economies like Spain and Italy.

SuperT: Honestly, germany and france need to team up, and slap a biatch.

Before this is over, Germany and France will be calling each other biatches and proceed to slapping the shiat out of each other. France's economy and budget are not pristine, and they face perils of their own in the next few months to year.

Old and busted currency:





New:

Used restaurant grease

Corporate Self: Remember what happened when Europe put punishing austerity on Germany after WW I? A return to Greek fascism is a real possibility.

Once established, it can easily spread to other troubled economies like Spain and Italy.

So Germany should just give Greece money? Because that's what it comes down to. Greece can't pay their bills and nobody in the market will willingly lend to them.

ablank: Leaving the Euro would crush the Greek banking sector to powder and cause massive disruption, but the Greek banking sector is already getting crushed by capital flight and not leaving the Euro basically guarantees that Greeks live in misery for the next 20 years.

This is the part Fark Economists^TM don't seem to get. They're demanding that Greek must suffer to atone for their fiscal irresponsibility. On principle, I get that. But anyone who thinks there's a hope of this happening has absolutely no idea how the world works. So, in other words, an economist.

Greek is suffering now. Regardless of their sins, the country is broke, the economy is in shambles, the people are rioting, the government is not in control and there's no relief in sight. That's not to say they don't deserve their fate, but the question is, how do you threaten a dying man? The banks are putting pressure on Germany to put pressure on Greece to pay back its debts. Or. . . what? They'll get booted out of the Eurozone? They won't lend Greece any more money? What incentive does Greece have to play nice when they're already getting shiat on?

Don't get me wrong; I'm not absolving Greece of responsibility in any way, shape or form. I'm asking how you get a bankrupt government with no control over its citizenry to pay back loans with money it doesn't have using threats that aren't any worse than what's coming anyway. The answer is, you can't. The banks can use their PR departments to demonize Greece in the US media all they want, and yes to clarify Greece deserves no sympathy, but things can't get any worse for them so what the fark do they care? It's like threatening a tenant who just slit his wrists with eviction for bleeding on your carpet. You realize how stupid that is? He's gonna die anyway; even if you did nothing wrong -- fark principle, you realize you have no leverage, right? He might as well just keep bleeding on your rug until you drag him out, just to spite you, and that's pretty much what Greece is doing.

"You're only making it worse for yourself"
"It can't get any worse! Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah!"

I wonder what excuses we will make when its America and no longer Greece.

We are on the same road, they are just a bit father a long.

madgonad: Is this the national equivalent of going to the grocery store before a big storm hits to get bread and milk?

Assuming that the bread and milk are inedible and by buying them you increase the chance that they are worthless? Yes.

dragonchild: how do you threaten a dying man?

Good points, but this isn't about the dying man, this is about his friends who haven't quite decided whether they want to contribute, or whether they want to bum.

dragonchild: ablank: Leaving the Euro would crush the Greek banking sector to powder and cause massive disruption, but the Greek banking sector is already getting crushed by capital flight and not leaving the Euro basically guarantees that Greeks live in misery for the next 20 years.

This is the part Fark EconomistsTM don't seem to get. They're demanding that Greek must suffer to atone for their fiscal irresponsibility. On principle, I get that. But anyone who thinks there's a hope of this happening has absolutely no idea how the world works. So, in other words, an economist.

Greek is suffering now. Regardless of their sins, the country is broke, the economy is in shambles, the people are rioting, the government is not in control and there's no relief in sight. That's not to say they don't deserve their fate, but the question is, how do you threaten a dying man? The banks are putting pressure on Germany to put pressure on Greece to pay back its debts. Or. . . what? They'll get booted out of the Eurozone? They won't lend Greece any more money? What incentive does Greece have to play nice when they're already getting shiat on?

Don't get me wrong; I'm not absolving Greece of responsibility in any way, shape or form. I'm asking how you get a bankrupt government with no control over its citizenry to pay back loans with money it doesn't have using threats that aren't any worse than what's coming anyway. The answer is, you can't. The banks can use their PR departments to demonize Greece in the US media all they want, and yes to clarify Greece deserves no sympathy, but things can't get any worse for them so what the fark do they care? It's like threatening a tenant who just slit his wrists with eviction for bleeding on your carpet. You realize how stupid that is? He's gonna die anyway; even if you did nothing wrong -- fark principle, you realize you have no leverage, right? He might as well just keep bleeding on your rug until you drag him out, just to spite you, and that's pretty much what Greece is doing.

"You're only making it worse for yourself"
"It can't get any worse! Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah!"

The "banks" have already written down their Greek debt by something like 70%. The Greeks are now borrowing from the other European countries (because no private lender or bank will lend to them, and why would they). The Europeans, as a condition for the loans they are offering, are demanding that the money not be wasted like most Greek government spending is, because they want to be paid back at some point.

What you "austerity is killing the Greeks" folks don't realize is that the only alternatives to austerity are the northern europeans literally giving money to greeks, or the Greeks leaving the euro, with all the terrible implications of that for the Greek economy.

Debeo Summa Credo: the Greeks leaving the euro, with all the terrible implications of that for the Greek economy.

Staying with the Euro has terrible implications for the Greek economy.
What is it really comes down to is that in one scenario, the banks get paid at all, and in the other, Greece flips them the bird. Either way, it's shiatty for the Greeks.

Iceland was right.

Sergeant Grumbles: Debeo Summa Credo: the Greeks leaving the euro, with all the terrible implications of that for the Greek economy.

Staying with the Euro has terrible implications for the Greek economy.
What is it really comes down to is that in one scenario, the banks get paid at all, and in the other, Greece flips them the bird. Either way, it's shiatty for the Greeks.

The other European countries recognize that further losses for investors will mean that investors will be less likely to lend to other euro area countries. Already Spain and Italy are paying higher rates than they would have if Greece hadnt defaulted.

So the agreement for the 70% write down included aid from Europe to Greece, as well as stipulations regarding spending.

If Greece defaulted now, investors would lose more and demand even higher premiums for lending to other european countries. And Greece wouldn't have any access to euros to use to continue their deficit spending!

Leaving the euro would have worse implications (severe inflation) in the short term and long term (much higher borrowing rates in drachmas forever than they might have gotten if they stuck it out with austerity in the euro).

Debeo Summa Credo: If Greece defaulted now, investors would lose more and demand even higher premiums for lending to other european countries. And Greece wouldn't have any access to euros to use to continue their deficit spending!

I'm sure the Greeks don't give a shiat, since they don't have access to Euros anyway. Exactly like I said, Greece is farked either way, and the only difference is whether or not they tell the banks to go fark themselves.
They'll have a tougher slog than Iceland should they do so, but it's in every Greeks' best interest, as it will be the only way they aren't forced to sell off every last crumb of their country to these economic charlatans..

ablank: The economy has been destroyed by the people currently running it.


Um, no. The economy was destroyed by the banks who sold securities that ended up being worth less than the paper they were printed on.

Greece is going to default at some point, no matter what kind of bailout, loans, etc., they are given. There is too much debt, too little tax collection, little if any economic activity that all contribute to this fact. What the EU wants is to string Greece along another couple years with crushing poverty and depression in order to buy time for the other economies to build up enough strenght to be able to cast Greece off. This is all about Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, and France being able to survive in the Euro, not about Greece staying in regardless of what anyone says.

However, the voters don't want to follow the playbook as things are absolutely awful now so they don't feel it could get worse if they do default and get kicked out. Tthe far right and far left political parties are catering to this view by pledging to end the pain and somehow stay in the Euro and EU. This isn't very realistic, but this is politics and telling voters what they want to hear is part of any campaign. Honestly, the sooner they go through the process the sooner they can start to recover, but it is damn scary to think a depression will get worse before it gets better.However what may be good for Greece would be horrible for the Eurozone given that will start the run that will drag down the rest of the Eurozone economies and trigger the end of the Euro as it is presently configured. I just don't see Greece playing along and the rest of Europe simply isn't willing to do what is necessary to stop the run that Greece's exit will trigger.

Get ready for a wild ride, economically speaking, for the next few weeks and months. This is going to get ugly on a global scale.

Sergeant Grumbles: Debeo Summa Credo: If Greece defaulted now, investors would lose more and demand even higher premiums for lending to other european countries. And Greece wouldn't have any access to euros to use to continue their deficit spending!

I'm sure the Greeks don't give a shiat, since they don't have access to Euros anyway. Exactly like I said, Greece is farked either way, and the only difference is whether or not they tell the banks to go fark themselves.
They'll have a tougher slog than Iceland should they do so, but it's in every Greeks' best interest, as it will be the only way they aren't forced to sell off every last crumb of their country to these economic charlatans..

The Greeks want more money from European governments. The other European governments are imposing conditions on future cash infusions. The Greeks can bite the bullet, commit to austerity, pay back their debts (including the previously written down to thirty cents on the dollar
external investor/ bank debt which by the way mostly isn't due for many years
anyway).

It's not the banks that are holding anyone hostage. The Greeks need someone to give them cash to pay their governmental expenses, and the other Europeans want the money back at some point, hence their insistence on austerity and structural reform.

Corporate Self: I wonder what excuses we will make when its America and no longer Greece.

We are on the same road, they are just a bit father a long.

But don't you dare raise taxes on the job creators and super wealthy

Komplex: Iceland was right.

boom heashot - thread over

Corporate Self: Remember what happened when Europe put punishing austerity on Germany after WW I? A return to Greek fascism is a real possibility.

Once established, it can easily spread to other troubled economies like Spain and Italy.

Fascism is on the rise in Greece already. Really all forms of extremism. Why? because BOTH the center left and the center right endorsed the bailout deal and the austerity. There's no credible alternative other than more extreme parties.

Debeo Summa Credo: What you "austerity is killing the Greeks" folks don't realize is that the only alternatives to austerity are the northern europeans literally giving money to greeks, or the Greeks leaving the euro, with all the terrible implications of that for the Greek economy.

I absolutely realize that. Look, West Virginia is a relatively unproductive area of the United States. The United States has transfer programs (Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, Title I money for schools, etc...) that prop up the economy of West Virginia. People in New York and New Jersey could go around decrying the profligacy of West Virginians and demand that they get their budgets in line, but they don't, because we're all Americans. We don't tell the less productive areas of the US just to suck it. The issue here is Europe either needs to be united in one economic unit (and YES have transfer payments) or it needs to split up (and have separate currencies), but the idea we'll have one economic policy for the whole continent and not have any transfer payments and set economic policy according to what makes Germans and the BeNeLux countries happy is not sustainable.

They could either a) send direct cash to Greece and other less productive countries, or b) the ECB could set monetary policy according to the needs of the PIIGS, or c) you break up the Euro. Like, your choice, but those are the real choices. Oh, I guess there's also possibility d) German dictatorship which can over-rule the democratic process in any non-French, non-German country. But German dictatorship has not historically been a good option for Europe.

dragonchild: But anyone who thinks there's a hope of this happening has absolutely no idea how the world works. So, in other words, an economist.

You, sir, owe me a new keyboard.

You know what would help Greece?

Spending more money that they don't have and which no one will lend them!

CheatCommando: You, sir, owe me a new keyboard.

If you think there's a hope of that happening, you have absolutely no idea how the world works.

beta_plus: You know what would help Greece?

The rich and corporations actually paying taxes?

Banks not needing bailouts?

beta_plus: Spending more money that they don't have and which no one will lend them!

Of course, always blame it on the little guys when the big guys cause the problems.