FARK.com: (7160333) It's called "buttoning," a new trend where passengers activate the emergency cutoff

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		It's called "buttoning," a new trend where passengers activate the emergency cutoff (jalopnik.com)		173
		More: Stupid, automotive lighting, emergency cutoff, Onstar, passengers

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15552 clicks; posted to Geek » on 13 Jun 2012 at 2:14 PM | Favorite | share:

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Ant		2012-06-13 03:35:48 PM

DoBeDoBeDo: That's why those videos of "see I can shift into neutral while at speed" are bunk.

Not bunk
image.automobilemag.com

Girion47		2012-06-13 03:37:56 PM

mccallcl: Cars should automatically shut off if both hands are not on the wheel during hard acceleration or any braking.

You know how I know you can't drive?

tricycleracer		2012-06-13 03:38:27 PM

Ant: DoBeDoBeDo: That's why those videos of "see I can shift into neutral while at speed" are bunk.

Not bunk
[image.automobilemag.com image 640x400]

Yup.

static.automanager.com

Splinshints		2012-06-13 03:38:42 PM

DoBeDoBeDo: So if the computer borks that button is going to be useless as fark.

There isn't "a computer" in the car, there are many. Cars anymore are packed with sensors and processing units that all have to agree at every junction in the system and when they don't they tend to intentionally cause a cascading failure to safely shut. Down. EVERYTHING. Or, more likely, limit the functionality of the car so it can "limp" somewhere safe.

DoBeDoBeDo: I still say MOST of those are caused by bad code that sticks the throttle in "farking go!!!!" and that borks the shiat out of every thing else.

That's very unlikely. Just off the top of my head you'd have to have your accelerator pedal position sensor, throttle position sensor 1 and sensor 2 at the very least all fail simultaneously in the just right ways that it all looked to the ECU like everything was good and you had your foot planted. If you've never had any of things go, what really happens is that the ECU starts getting weird inputs that start doing weird things with the throttle body. Either you start bucking like crazy until the car gives up and stops accepting input and goes to "limp" mode or it just doesn't respond at all, or barely.

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: To be fair, it seems that the most public examples of "unintentional acceleration" have, in the end, been "user error" on the part of the drivers, not mechanical and electrical issues.

ShawnDoc: Almost all cases of unintended acceleration were due to the person pushing down on the accelerator, not due to a defect in the car. Unless cruise control was on, removing ones foot from the accelerator would have stopped the "unintended" acceleration. In the case of cruise control, stepping on the brake would have worked.

I don't dispute that, but that's not what the Boobieser I responded to said and it doesn't change the fact that a simple feature like this makes sense.

hinten		2012-06-13 03:42:19 PM

Splinshints: hinten: No, there is exactly one cause for unintentional acceleration and to eliminate that one cause we would have to eliminate all stupid people which has proven quite difficult in the past.

ShawnDoc: If the person is too stupid to remove their foot from the accelerator, they're probably too stupid to slap the engine cut-off button.

So, basically, the two of you don't have any idea how a modern car works and you think that gives you free reign to act like other people are dumb?

The facts are on my side but don't let that stop you from being one of those people that I talk about here.

rohar		2012-06-13 03:43:29 PM

Ant: DoBeDoBeDo: That's why those videos of "see I can shift into neutral while at speed" are bunk.

Not bunk
[image.automobilemag.com image 640x400]

tricycleracer: Ant: DoBeDoBeDo: That's why those videos of "see I can shift into neutral while at speed" are bunk.

Not bunk
[image.automobilemag.com image 640x400]

Yup.

[static.automanager.com image 320x240]

Um guys, gramma's already having trouble telling the difference between 2 pedals, how's adding another gonna fix anything?

cmunic8r99		2012-06-13 03:45:30 PM

tricycleracer: Ant: DoBeDoBeDo: That's why those videos of "see I can shift into neutral while at speed" are bunk.

Not bunk
[image.automobilemag.com image 640x400]

Yup.

[static.automanager.com image 320x240]

I can do this with my automatic. In fact, I did it a couple of weeks ago.

Girion47		2012-06-13 03:45:56 PM

rohar: Ant: DoBeDoBeDo: That's why those videos of "see I can shift into neutral while at speed" are bunk.

Not bunk
[image.automobilemag.com image 640x400]

tricycleracer: Ant: DoBeDoBeDo: That's why those videos of "see I can shift into neutral while at speed" are bunk.

Not bunk
[image.automobilemag.com image 640x400]

Yup.

[static.automanager.com image 320x240]

Um guys, gramma's already having trouble telling the difference between 2 pedals, how's adding another gonna fix anything?

Not everyone is meant to drive, just because the US has foolishly allowed it, doesn't mean its a good thing.

J. Frank Parnell		2012-06-13 03:48:23 PM

Oh, and as synchronicity would have it, just came across a Cracked article from yesterday explaining how The Defective Toyota Cars That Were Speeding Out of Control Had Nothing Wrong With Them.

Turns out it was likely just old fashioned 'hitting the wrong pedal because i lack the brain activity to operate a motor vehicle'.

rohar		2012-06-13 03:52:52 PM

Girion47: Not everyone is meant to drive, just because the US has foolishly allowed it, doesn't mean its a good thing.

Agreed. I'll be doing competition training again this weekend. The washout rate is about 70%. You're welcome to give it a shot if you wish.

Oh, and I do have a kill switch on the passenger side. That's where I sit when people who think they know how to drive are driving.

The same rules apply here as apply on the track. If you can achieve your goal with fewer inputs you will be more effective. One big red button requires fewer inputs that any other solution. The author has a major point here.

Now, you can accept that or ignore efficiency and turn it into a dick waving contest. No matter how impressive you think your dick is, it won't save lives.

Hollie Maea		2012-06-13 03:53:22 PM

I'm starting work on an electric car conversion. You're goddamn right it will have a physical kill switch.

/And a fingerprint reader ignition

Girion47		2012-06-13 03:54:34 PM

rohar: Girion47: Not everyone is meant to drive, just because the US has foolishly allowed it, doesn't mean its a good thing.

Agreed. I'll be doing competition training again this weekend. The washout rate is about 70%. You're welcome to give it a shot if you wish.

Oh, and I do have a kill switch on the passenger side. That's where I sit when people who think they know how to drive are driving.

The same rules apply here as apply on the track. If you can achieve your goal with fewer inputs you will be more effective. One big red button requires fewer inputs that any other solution. The author has a major point here.

Now, you can accept that or ignore efficiency and turn it into a dick waving contest. No matter how impressive you think your dick is, it won't save lives.

I already have plans to attend DE at Putnam and Mid-Ohio, plus WA is a little far for me.

justtray		2012-06-13 03:54:38 PM

CSB time.

Driving down a 45 MPH road. This road is notorious for people driving 30 MPH, well under the speed limit, so I usually just pass them.

Green light ahead of me, guy in front of me SLAMS on the breaks right in front of the greenlight. I barely avoid rear ending him.

He apparently stopped because there were pedestrians waiting at the median on bikes, entirely ignoring the "right of way" and inadvertently almost causing a multi-car pile up.

The worst part, I lay on the horn, the indication he should not be stopping, and he actually sticks his head out the window to say something in rage to me, to which I respond, "ITS A GREEN LIGHT IDIOT."

Please, please, please, do NOT stop obeying the rules of the road because you want to be "courteous." If you are one of these people, please stop driving forever, and when you do cause an accident, please at least realize you were being a farking moron, and take the blame.

This goes for people who don't understand Yield signs, hard brake when merging, and those who feel entitled to drive in the left lane blocking faster moving traffic.

I really wish th President would one day lay out a code of ethics for driving, because people in this country are farking retarded.

Old enough to know better		2012-06-13 03:57:45 PM

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Years ago, I was in a car that got totaled in a rear-end collision. The woman's statement as to the cause of her plowing into my car while I was at a complete stop in a turn lane? "I couldn't find the brake."

Sort of an important thing to know how to locate in an emergency, lady.

I hope you had the good sense to punch her in the face as soon as those words left her mouth?

BitwiseShift		2012-06-13 03:58:45 PM

Not fancy enough and certainly not expensive enough.

A true shutoff needs to create more problems than it fixes. It needs to react to radio frequencies of traffic lights, toll sensors and speed radar. Most of the time it needs to speed up.

When the button is hit, it should work correctly, and ultimately immobilize the car. It must require a $550 per incident repair, done by a factory-based tech who must jet out to a local dealer on Tuesdays, Wednesdays or Thursdays.

Any car within 50 feet should also be affected. So the traffic jam on the expressway would be epic.

It should cost $2000 to remove or cripple the device by a black market mechanic.

Splinshints		2012-06-13 03:59:41 PM

hinten: The facts are on my side but don't let that stop you from being one of those people that I talk about here.

Mmm hmm.

The 2004 SVT Cobra was recalled after multiple reports of unintended sudden acceleration received by NHTSA. The car had a defective accelerator pedal that did not return to idle after being fully depressed.

That's one example. Shall we discuss electrical problems in Jeeps that have caused multiple crashes? The Honda Accord with a faulty VSC? Or are you done embarrassing yourself?

Saiga410		2012-06-13 04:18:26 PM

Splinshints: That's very unlikely. Just off the top of my head you'd have to have your accelerator pedal position sensor, throttle position sensor 1 and sensor 2 at the very least all fail simultaneously in the just right ways that it all looked to the ECU like everything was good and you had your foot planted. If you've never had any of things go, what really happens is that the ECU starts getting weird inputs that start doing weird things with the throttle body. Either you start bucking like crazy until the car gives up and stops accepting input and goes to "limp" mode or it just doesn't respond at all, or ba

Hmmm not in the automotive industry but I would expect the pedal sensor to be PWM. In a failure mode for a PWM sensor you either go to to 0 or 1. A way of doing the pedal setup should involve having WOT with a PWM output of .8ish. If you get a signal of 0 or 1, an error code gets thrown and engine goes into limp.... ar at least that is how I would design it.

randroid		2012-06-13 04:20:11 PM

rohar: Girion47: Not everyone is meant to drive, just because the US has foolishly allowed it, doesn't mean its a good thing.

Agreed. I'll be doing competition training again this weekend. The washout rate is about 70%. You're welcome to give it a shot if you wish.

Oh, and I do have a kill switch on the passenger side. That's where I sit when people who think they know how to drive are driving.

The same rules apply here as apply on the track. If you can achieve your goal with fewer inputs you will be more effective. One big red button requires fewer inputs that any other solution. The author has a major point here.

Now, you can accept that or ignore efficiency and turn it into a dick waving contest. No matter how impressive you think your dick is, it won't save lives.

So last week you were a software engineer, and this week you're a competition racing driving instructor. Riiiight...

xbook		2012-06-13 04:22:17 PM

Mongo No.5: xbook: farming cars

tractors?

Darn Lion autocorrect, meant farKing.

hinten		2012-06-13 04:22:46 PM

Splinshints: hinten: The facts are on my side but don't let that stop you from being one of those people that I talk about here.

Mmm hmm.

The 2004 SVT Cobra was recalled after multiple reports of unintended sudden acceleration received by NHTSA. The car had a defective accelerator pedal that did not return to idle after being fully depressed.

That's one example. Shall we discuss electrical problems in Jeeps that have caused multiple crashes? The Honda Accord with a faulty VSC? Or are you done embarrassing yourself?

Thanks for outing yourself. Google results do not an argument make.

SWGlassPit		2012-06-13 04:24:52 PM

Mongo No.5: or just put brakes on a car that are strong enough to slow you even at full throttle. I would say nearly every car on the road satisfies that condition save for a few supercars (and even those would still slow down to a point).

Something to keep in mind: modern gas-driven cars have vacuum-assisted brakes. That vacuum comes from the engine cylinders drawing air through a closed throttle. If you have a wide-open throttle, you have no engine vacuum, and once your vacuum reservoir bleeds dry, no vacuum assist. Next time you get in your car, pump the brake a few times with the engine off and see just how hard it is to depress the brake pedal once the vacuum assist is gone.

Girion47		2012-06-13 04:26:18 PM

randroid: rohar: Girion47: Not everyone is meant to drive, just because the US has foolishly allowed it, doesn't mean its a good thing.

Agreed. I'll be doing competition training again this weekend. The washout rate is about 70%. You're welcome to give it a shot if you wish.

Oh, and I do have a kill switch on the passenger side. That's where I sit when people who think they know how to drive are driving.

The same rules apply here as apply on the track. If you can achieve your goal with fewer inputs you will be more effective. One big red button requires fewer inputs that any other solution. The author has a major point here.

Now, you can accept that or ignore efficiency and turn it into a dick waving contest. No matter how impressive you think your dick is, it won't save lives.

So last week you were a software engineer, and this week you're a competition racing driving instructor. Riiiight...

My father in law is a rail signal engineer and races porsches on the weekends, his claim doesn't seem that far-fetched.

Millennium		2012-06-13 04:31:51 PM

Dammit; here I was, almost hoping that it had become a Facebook meme to do something that could get you arrested.

mjjt		2012-06-13 04:31:53 PM

Splinshints: hinten: No, there is exactly one cause for unintentional acceleration and to eliminate that one cause we would have to eliminate all stupid people which has proven quite difficult in the past.

ShawnDoc: If the person is too stupid to remove their foot from the accelerator, they're probably too stupid to slap the engine cut-off button.

So, basically, the two of you don't have any idea how a modern car works and you think that gives you free reign to act like other people are dumb?

Oh dear, - you're calling other people dumb, but you don't know when to use 'reign' and when it should be 'rein'?

jtown		2012-06-13 04:35:09 PM

hinten: "There are, of course, many more ways a car could unintentionally accelerate."

No, there is exactly one cause for unintentional acceleration and to eliminate that one cause we would have to eliminate all stupid people which has proven quite difficult in the past.

You know what's funny about absolutes? Very few of them are real.

Many years ago, I was driving one of the company cars and the cruise control floored it going up a hill...then stayed floored. Since I'm not an idiot, I put the car in neutral and turned off the cruise control. The vibration of the engine revving knocked the throttle loose. When I got back, the boss said, "Oh, yeah. The throttle sticks on that car." "Then maybe the car should go to the shop and get fixed!" So I sent it to the shop and got the sticky throttle fixed.

Anyway, there are isolated cases of genuine unintended acceleration that are not the fault of the driver.

jtown		2012-06-13 04:35:49 PM

SWGlassPit		2012-06-13 04:36:15 PM

Some interesting material on how the Toyota electronic throttle works:

Google Books

RumsfeldsReplacement		2012-06-13 04:40:58 PM

Oh God this again?

Try this experiment...preferably on a rental car. Push the gas pedal and the brake pedal as hard as you can at the same time. You'll find that the car stops just as quickly as if you just hit the brake.

Brake pedal people. What is so hard about that?

Yuri Futanari		2012-06-13 04:43:02 PM

I'm trying to start a new trend called Penising.

It's not going well.

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats		2012-06-13 04:47:31 PM

Old enough to know better: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: Years ago, I was in a car that got totaled in a rear-end collision. The woman's statement as to the cause of her plowing into my car while I was at a complete stop in a turn lane? "I couldn't find the brake."

Sort of an important thing to know how to locate in an emergency, lady.

I hope you had the good sense to punch her in the face as soon as those words left her mouth?

I was trapped in the car, so only heard it 2nd-hand

Skyfrog		2012-06-13 04:47:48 PM

Am I the only one who read the headline and thought this would be about a stupid new fad where passengers pulled the emergency handle on trains?

mjjt		2012-06-13 04:50:23 PM

The problem is that humans evolved to react to an unexpected threat by freezing. The rational part of the brain doesn't get involved, unless the person has been trained to react differently.

Sometimes that 'training' just has to involve thinking about/visualising what you would do if you were in a given situation - if you had a Plan B ready for brain to refer to.

So need some way of getting drivers to do that - maybe when car is being certified each year they could watch a video? Or whatever works.

I'd much prefer to deal with problem that way than by adding another bit of tech that increases costs to guard against rare risk.

gunther_bumpass		2012-06-13 04:51:29 PM

Mongo No.5: xbook: farming cars

tractors?

turnip, buttocks.

rohar		2012-06-13 04:57:34 PM

randroid: rohar: Girion47: Not everyone is meant to drive, just because the US has foolishly allowed it, doesn't mean its a good thing.

Agreed. I'll be doing competition training again this weekend. The washout rate is about 70%. You're welcome to give it a shot if you wish.

Oh, and I do have a kill switch on the passenger side. That's where I sit when people who think they know how to drive are driving.

The same rules apply here as apply on the track. If you can achieve your goal with fewer inputs you will be more effective. One big red button requires fewer inputs that any other solution. The author has a major point here.

Now, you can accept that or ignore efficiency and turn it into a dick waving contest. No matter how impressive you think your dick is, it won't save lives.

So last week you were a software engineer, and this week you're a competition racing driving instructor. Riiiight...

No, I've been doing both for 20 years. Cars came first as a teen. Then I had to support myself. You see how this goes. Strangely it's possible to do a couple of things with your life.

I also own a small farm full of breading stock and fabricate stuffs for quite a bit of money from time to time.

/your life sounds boring
//woulda responded earlier but I was in the shop pressing out frames for portable livestock fences.
///seriously

dkimball		2012-06-13 05:00:09 PM

I had a floormat cause my car to not return the gas pedal and it was at 100% throttle. Took about a second for me to wake up and put it into neutral with engine reving like crazy.

SWGlassPit		2012-06-13 05:06:18 PM

Skyfrog: Am I the only one who read the headline and thought this would be about a stupid new fad where passengers pulled the emergency handle on trains?

You are not. That was my first thought as well.

TheShavingofOccam123		2012-06-13 05:08:22 PM

It's the farking Chrysler brothers fault. They moved the starter from your left foot to the dash. What the hell kind of gew-gaw thinking was that?

randroid		2012-06-13 05:08:50 PM

rohar: randroid: rohar: Girion47: Not everyone is meant to drive, just because the US has foolishly allowed it, doesn't mean its a good thing.

Agreed. I'll be doing competition training again this weekend. The washout rate is about 70%. You're welcome to give it a shot if you wish.

Oh, and I do have a kill switch on the passenger side. That's where I sit when people who think they know how to drive are driving.

The same rules apply here as apply on the track. If you can achieve your goal with fewer inputs you will be more effective. One big red button requires fewer inputs that any other solution. The author has a major point here.

Now, you can accept that or ignore efficiency and turn it into a dick waving contest. No matter how impressive you think your dick is, it won't save lives.

So last week you were a software engineer, and this week you're a competition racing driving instructor. Riiiight...

No, I've been doing both for 20 years. Cars came first as a teen. Then I had to support myself. You see how this goes. Strangely it's possible to do a couple of things with your life.

I also own a small farm full of breading stock and fabricate stuffs for quite a bit of money from time to time.

/your life sounds boring
//woulda responded earlier but I was in the shop pressing out frames for portable livestock fences.
///seriously

Look out guys, we got a badass here!

Skyfrog		2012-06-13 05:10:02 PM

TheShavingofOccam123: It's the farking Chrysler brothers fault. They moved the starter from your left foot to the dash. What the hell kind of gew-gaw thinking was that?

Everything went downhill when they did away with crank starters.

Shadyman		2012-06-13 05:12:24 PM

fluffy2097		2012-06-13 05:16:14 PM

randroid: Look out guys, we got a badass here!

Computers and cars go together better then you might think. Also fabrication.

Geeks like knowing how things work and they enjoy fabricating things.

HeartBurnKid		2012-06-13 05:18:47 PM

DoBeDoBeDo: Call me insane but that button looks non mechanical. In that a simple button press would not move a lever that would act as a clutch and disengage the transmission.

So if the computer borks that button is going to be useless as fark.

That's also some guy with Photoshop, not a professional designer.

Maechyll		2012-06-13 05:19:42 PM

Skyfrog: Everything went downhill when they did away with crank starters.

And manual spark advance.

You used to have to be at least a little coordinated to get the machine up to ramming speed.

Benni K Rok		2012-06-13 05:26:53 PM

BitwiseShift: Not fancy enough and certainly not expensive enough.

A true shutoff needs to create more problems than it fixes. It needs to react to radio frequencies of traffic lights, toll sensors and speed radar. Most of the time it needs to speed up.

When the button is hit, it should work correctly, and ultimately immobilize the car. It must require a $550 per incident repair, done by a factory-based tech who must jet out to a local dealer on Tuesdays, Wednesdays or Thursdays.

Any car within 50 feet should also be affected. So the traffic jam on the expressway would be epic.

It should cost $2000 to remove or cripple the device by a black market mechanic.

Based on what you described it doing, I would charge 2,000 for it, but it would only cost me about 100 bucks, and take about 30 minutes, at least for a cheap fix. A proper fix would be closer to 2 grand, mostly in building a way to block the RF signals. Duct tape will block the IR signals, so that's easy enough. If I wanted it to look pretty, I would just paint it to block out the light.

Girion47		2012-06-13 05:29:38 PM

I think German license requirements would reduce accidents immensely.

Also once you hit 65 you must recertify every 5 years.

rohar		2012-06-13 05:30:01 PM

fluffy2097: randroid: Look out guys, we got a badass here!

Computers and cars go together better then you might think. Also fabrication.

Geeks like knowing how things work and they enjoy fabricating things.

Besides he obviously didn't click my profile. I'm in farking Spocompton. Rikard Ridel isn't available as a track instructor. You'll be lucky to get me as I only do it about 3 weekends a year.

/free track time if I do 4 hours of instruction
//come on! track time isn't cheep even here

rohar		2012-06-13 05:30:54 PM

Girion47: I think German license requirements would reduce accidents immensely.

Also once you hit 65 you must recertify every 5 years.

QFT!!!

InfamousBLT		2012-06-13 05:33:56 PM

kim jong-un		2012-06-13 05:36:05 PM

tricycleracer: The answer is an emergency cutoff switch. Now, it's not one exactly like in racing cars, but the fundamental idea is the same. The switch needs to be big, obvious, and easy to activate. I'm thinking a nice big, red mushroom-type button that can be easily smacked with a panicked, flailing hand.

And there's absolutely no way your jackass drunk friends will think pressing this on the Interstate won't be hilarious.

Sounds a bit like a lot of first time stories.

tillerman35		2012-06-13 05:37:15 PM

First of all, I've been saying for years that highways should have pop-up silhouettes of small children that randomly cause you to think that a toddler has appeared on the road. Eventually, there would be enough rear-end accidents that people would learn to stay off my farking bumper.

That stated, the button from TFA should not be a button. It should be a pull thingy like they use for ejection seats in jet fighters. A button is easy to slap accidentally. A pull thingy is just as easy to use but harder to use accidentally. Also, if you're trying to use the feature from outside the car, it would only require grabbing on and holding, whereas a button would require you to push on a surface that was already moving away from you.

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