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(Discover)   I'm not saying it's streetlights, but streetlights   (blogs.discovermagazine.com) divider line 53
    More: Cool, rocket boosters, irrigation sprinklers, spirals, martian atmosphere, wormholes, OTOH  
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5924 clicks; posted to Geek » on 12 Jun 2012 at 12:31 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-12 12:34:33 PM  
Ahh, the rocket explanation again. Some people will believe anything.
 
2012-06-12 12:54:39 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Ahh, the rocket explanation again. Some people will believe anything.


i.imgur.com

What a J. Frank Parnell may look like.
 
2012-06-12 01:03:11 PM  
Another such event in Western Canada:

Video 1

Video 2

I've had a convincing UFO experience myself (and was likewise a skeptic beforehand of all those who have claimed such similar encounters). Once you see something like I did in person, you realize one of two things:
1) It's all true. We're not alone. There might be hope for this planet of ignorant apemen after all.
2) Our governments have in their hands technological marvels so incredibly advanced in comparison to those we're all familiar with that it's sickening to what degree the majority of the population is completely kept in the dark.

I'll share my UFO story if anyone is interested, even if I'm sure it'll be met with heavy criticism. I sometimes wish everyone had the opportunity once in their life to have such an experience. If anything, it gave me a fresh dose of perspective, something I feel the majority of us could use.
 
2012-06-12 01:09:34 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Ahh, the rocket explanation again. Some people will believe anything.


Hmmm. Propellent from a spinning rocket booster, or an alien spacecraft painting pretty pictures for us.

Gee, I can't decide which one is more likely...
 
2012-06-12 01:17:40 PM  
I wish that "I'm not saying it's,,,," meme die in a fire.
 
2012-06-12 01:42:15 PM  

redTiburon: I wish that "I'm not saying it's,,,," meme die in a fire.


YEAH, WE CAN REPLACE IT WITH " AS ANCIENT ALIEN THEORISTS BELIEVE..." They say that about 20 times in each of those shows.
 
2012-06-12 01:42:42 PM  

redTiburon: I wish that "I'm not saying it's,,,," meme die in a fire.


^ This.

Also, BSABSVR can go fark himself.
 
2012-06-12 01:44:00 PM  

IC Stars: Hmmm. Propellent from a spinning rocket booster, or an alien spacecraft painting pretty pictures for us.


I'm not saying it's anything. But accepting this explanation just because it's the only one offered, is ignorant. People are just reading this and taking it as fact without critical analysis.

We've never seen rocket booster propellant create anything even remotely close to this in the past. The hues in these events are always similar to aurora, so that leads me to think it's something going on in the ionosphere.
 
2012-06-12 01:44:04 PM  
blacksharpiemarker:


I'd like to hear it, I'm definitely a skeptic but for some reason, I find personal stories (and the details included therein) a whole lot more interesting than shaky video and general internets.
 
2012-06-12 01:45:59 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: IC Stars: Hmmm. Propellent from a spinning rocket booster, or an alien spacecraft painting pretty pictures for us.

I'm not saying it's anything. But accepting this explanation just because it's the only one offered, is ignorant. People are just reading this and taking it as fact without critical analysis.

We've never seen rocket booster propellant create anything even remotely close to this in the past. The hues in these events are always similar to aurora, so that leads me to think it's something going on in the ionosphere.


You know how I know that you know nothing about solar science?
 
2012-06-12 01:53:45 PM  

italie: You know how I know that you know nothing about solar science?


Not sure what your angle here is. Charged particles in the atmosphere create consistent and unique colors in the sky. These exact same colors are witnessed in these events. No missile has ever produced anything close to this. Which do you think is more likely?
 
2012-06-12 02:17:41 PM  

Pintosbiehn: I'd like to hear it, I'm definitely a skeptic but for some reason, I find personal stories (and the details included therein) a whole lot more interesting than shaky video and general internets.


It happened back towards the end of April, 2005 just north of Toronto on a clear night (Sometime between 9-10pm). I had gone out for a walk in my local neighborhood with a close friend of mine and brother. We were close to finishing up our walk and were just a couple of minutes away from the house when my friend first noticed it. We were casually having conversation and he stopped silent, looking up with a rather startled look on his face. He states "What the hell is that?". I looked up and hovering (nearly inaudibly) above us (approximately 10 stories up, so relatively low) was a very large black triangular craft. The only visible lighting were a row of glowing orange orbs on two of the three sides. Truth be told, in the moment I wasn't sure how to react and jokingly said "A flock of birds?" to which he responded "Birds don't glow". Before the three of us had much more time to react, the craft ever so slightly re-positioned its nose towards a specific point into the night sky and with no sound or visible propulsion completely vanished (almost as if it had been sucked towards the destination point in the heavens it was facing, the best way I can communicate into the words the concept behind the visual experience). As I mentioned earlier, it was a completely clear night, the moon was out, there were no clouds, and the stars were well visible so it was quite clear that wherever it ended up, it was far outside the limits of our atmosphere.

We didn't know how to rationalize any of it, and a sense of awe and fear seems to set in shortly after you have a UFO encounter for yourself. I'm thankful my brother and friend remember the experience clearly and had the opportunity to see it with me. If I had been the only one to tell such a story they would have surely thought I was crazy. If they had witnessed it themselves and told me about it I would have doubted them.

Here's the closest photo resembling what we witnessed that I could find through GIS:
www.crystalinks.com

I'm not here to dispute whether what we saw was of extraterrestrial origin or not, but I know what we saw was real, and it's inspiring to know that somewhere out there in the heavens, the possibility for human (or extraterrestrial) exploration is a very real possibility. I have no doubts that one day humanity will look back upon history and feel pity for the people of our time for their ignorance and unwillingness to accept the immense possibilities the Universe and life has to offer.
 
2012-06-12 02:30:08 PM  

illegal.tender: redTiburon: I wish that "I'm not saying it's,,,," meme die in a fire.

^ This.

Also, BSABSVR can go fark himself.


Ohh, poor little conspiracy theorist, all hurt? Address a comment to me if you want to talk about me you farking pathetic coward. I promise you I will release no chemtrails in retaliation. Nor will I tell the Greys to harm you.
 
2012-06-12 02:38:29 PM  

BSABSVR: illegal.tender: redTiburon: I wish that "I'm not saying it's,,,," meme die in a fire.

^ This.

Also, BSABSVR can go fark himself.

Ohh, poor little conspiracy theorist, all hurt? Address a comment to me if you want to talk about me you farking pathetic coward. I promise you I will release no chemtrails in retaliation. Nor will I tell the Greys to harm you.


Leave me out of this slap fight.
 
2012-06-12 02:57:15 PM  

blacksharpiemarker: Pintosbiehn: I'd like to hear it, I'm definitely a skeptic but for some reason, I find personal stories (and the details included therein) a whole lot more interesting than shaky video and general internets.

It happened back towards the end of April, 2005 just north of Toronto on a clear night (Sometime between 9-10pm). I had gone out for a walk in my local neighborhood with a close friend of mine and brother. We were close to finishing up our walk and were just a couple of minutes away from the house when my friend first noticed it. We were casually having conversation and he stopped silent, looking up with a rather startled look on his face. He states "What the hell is that?". I looked up and hovering (nearly inaudibly) above us (approximately 10 stories up, so relatively low) was a very large black triangular craft. The only visible lighting were a row of glowing orange orbs on two of the three sides. Truth be told, in the moment I wasn't sure how to react and jokingly said "A flock of birds?" to which he responded "Birds don't glow". Before the three of us had much more time to react, the craft ever so slightly re-positioned its nose towards a specific point into the night sky and with no sound or visible propulsion completely vanished (almost as if it had been sucked towards the destination point in the heavens it was facing, the best way I can communicate into the words the concept behind the visual experience). As I mentioned earlier, it was a completely clear night, the moon was out, there were no clouds, and the stars were well visible so it was quite clear that wherever it ended up, it was far outside the limits of our atmosph

Flock of high flying migratory geese caught in a beam of sunlight? It was about an hour after sunset, they fly up to 10000 feet. If they flew down out of the last rays of light it would look like they dissapeared.
 
2012-06-12 02:59:00 PM  
Can't say I blame people. If I saw something like that I'd freak out a little too. Wouldn't assume first thing that it was aliens, but "booster leaking fuel" would probably be way down on my list of guesses.
 
2012-06-12 03:05:51 PM  

blacksharpiemarker: Another such event in Western Canada:

Video 1

Video 2

I've had a convincing UFO experience myself (and was likewise a skeptic beforehand of all those who have claimed such similar encounters). Once you see something like I did in person, you realize one of two things:
1) It's all true. We're not alone. There might be hope for this planet of ignorant apemen after all.
2) Our governments have in their hands technological marvels so incredibly advanced in comparison to those we're all familiar with that it's sickening to what degree the majority of the population is completely kept in the dark.

I'll share my UFO story if anyone is interested, even if I'm sure it'll be met with heavy criticism. I sometimes wish everyone had the opportunity once in their life to have such an experience. If anything, it gave me a fresh dose of perspective, something I feel the majority of us could use.


There are thousands of anecdotal claims with no evidence. Also of people seeing Jesus, having near-death experiences, schizophrenia, mass delusions, sightings of the Jersey Devil, Bigfoot, Nessie, and chupacabras...visitations by ghosts, 'possessed' human beings...the list goes on.

In reality you were almost assuredly consumed by the same genetic weakness that led to the Salem Witch Trials - gullibility and a desire to see something. The problem is that there are thousand or tens of thousands of people saying things equally crazy as what you just said, and not a damned one of you bothered to obtain proof. I mean, I'll certainly read a cool UFO story, but I bet I could make up a better one (and probably more plausible).
 
2012-06-12 03:44:58 PM  
I'll share my UFO story if anyone is interested, even if I'm sure it'll be met with heavy criticism.

My family and I stepped out of a Picadilly one evening, it was around 8-10pm and dark, I think Novemberish in time. We each looked up to see a very very large field of lights moving in parallel at the same, fairly slow speed. They were arranged in a repeating diamond pattern, like a chain link fence, and were so spread out that they could not have been part of one single object, especially one single man-made object. Of course I've seen a couple of other possible extraterrestrial vehicles, but I simply cannot fathom a feasible explanation for that field of lights. Somebody please prove me wrong so I can stop thinking that the government is hiding shiat.
 
2012-06-12 03:57:17 PM  

blacksharpiemarker: 2) Our governments have in their hands technological marvels so incredibly advanced in comparison to those we're all familiar with that it's sickening to what degree the majority of the population is completely kept in the dark.


Shhh.

/everyone laughed at me when I told them the first "black triangles" glowed in the dark
 
2012-06-12 03:58:58 PM  

erewhon: blacksharpiemarker: 2) Our governments have in their hands technological marvels so incredibly advanced in comparison to those we're all familiar with that it's sickening to what degree the majority of the population is completely kept in the dark.

Shhh.

/everyone laughed at me when I told them the first "black triangles" glowed in the dark


More please.
 
2012-06-12 03:59:17 PM  

J. Frank Parnell:

Charged particles in the atmosphere create consistent and unique colors in the sky.


Radio waves aren't charged, don't carry charge, can't induce net charge.
 
2012-06-12 04:12:50 PM  

JustinCase: More please.


They did. It was one of those things that was very classified 20, 25 years back. Might have some residual classification level still, but I finally saw a journalist figure it out in 2004.

Back then I used to drop it into forums as a shibboleth. You'd be surprised how many Farkers back then worked for the shadier parts of LM. Heh.

Every once in a long long while you'll see someone from GLP or ATS stumble across a document someone came up with regarding another, much more modern version of the thing but still in the tech's infancy, and instead of figuring out the "why" they leap to some goofy-arsed conclusion involving anti-gravity or whatnot.
 
2012-06-12 04:40:43 PM  

blacksharpiemarker: We were casually having conversation and he stopped silent, looking up with a rather startled look on his face. He states "What the hell is that?". I looked up and hovering (nearly inaudibly) above us (approximately 10 stories up, so relatively low) was a very large black triangular craft.


Don't feel bad, you're not the only one to have seen something quite similar. We saw one at a customer's site once.

They're not totally silent, though, although they can get quite close to you before you can really hear them plainly, and the sound is fairly odd.
 
2012-06-12 05:22:53 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: italie: You know how I know that you know nothing about solar science?

Not sure what your angle here is. Charged particles in the atmosphere create consistent and unique colors in the sky. These exact same colors are witnessed in these events. No missile has ever produced anything close to this. Which do you. think is more likely?



Well, aside from the obvious flaw in your argument that has already been pointed out...lets look at this logically. We recently have 4 examples of this previously unseen phenomena. A very precise and unnatural looking phenomena. Who do you suppose is the more likely candidate to have upgraded its technology in the last few years to produce this? The Sun? The military?

//if the sun is shooting spiral aurora at us all of the sudden, we might want to revisit the whole mythology thing...
 
2012-06-12 05:37:28 PM  

italie: //if the sun is shooting spiral aurora at us all of the sudden, we might want to revisit the whole mythology thing...


Nah, he's a HAARPist, thus my comment to him a few back.
 
2012-06-12 06:06:56 PM  

italie: //if the sun is shooting spiral aurora at us all of the sudden, we might want to revisit the whole mythology thing...


Usually, they'll post some bogus "HAARP installation map" as if any ionospheric heater is part of the "HAARP conspiracy". Often, there will be mystic diagrams trying to link the sites together in some sort of "sacred geometry" or "ley lines" which further proves...something. Mostly, I guess, that if you have schizophrenia, you tend to look for patterns of meaning where there aren't any. Anyway, the 'reasoning' goes - if it's auroral research, then they must be able to produce aurorae, therefore any "HAARP installation" can do this, and they're starting to reveal their sinister power by painting spirals in the sky.

The reason for this tends to fall in several camps - one is the "dimensional portal" camp, having seen Stargate, you get one subset of loonies who think that the evil HAARP consortium exists to create portals ala Stargate.

Others think it's connected to some even loonier thing they call "Project Bluebeam", wherein supposedly the US will draw evil holograms on the upper atmosphere that look like Jesus/Mohammed et al which will talk, and everyone will somehow do exactly what the picture tells them to, possibly through some evil mind control also done by HAARP, although that one generally has something bogus to do with Schumann resonances, which none of the loonies seems to understand at all.

If you try explaining that the "auroral research" doesn't really include painting fireworks on the night sky, it falls on deaf ears. Yes, you can get some airglow by heating electrons in the upper atmosphere - the upper tail of the Gaussian velocity distribution will include electrons fast enough to pound the occasional electron off of a gas atom, and with an image intensifying telescope, you can see the beam tail! WOW! However, as cool as that is, it's not naked-eye visible. Certainly not like this. Even with all the "HAARP network" in play.
 
2012-06-12 06:43:34 PM  
I might also add - I do know where at least SOME of the "Project Bluebeam" thing came from, and it was real, sort of. At least as far as it went.

There was a project long ago, in the age of the Elder Gods, when dinosaurs walked the earth. That would be about the mid-80s. Your tax dollars go to fund some very stupid projects, and some contractors are quick to take the bait. I'd like to reframe it as - there are some generals that are very non-technical. Nice guys, good with tactical and strategic planning, great leaders in their way, but couldn't format a floppy if you put a knife to their collective throats, which you'd think would be their reason to hire technical consults like me, for instance.

However, what they see, hear and read in the media can be very very strong with some of these guys. Other projects of Conspiracy Theory fame draw on media input as well - one of these was the 2025 series, an Air College project that called on several movie directors as part of their technical input. It produced a large number of "concept ideas" that were just as bogus as this, and for the same reason - you've got Spielberg proposing technical solutions to some of the wackier LTCs.

Anyway, there was this movie - you might have heard of it - Star Wars. It had this "hologram" thing in there. And OMFG, did THAT inspire military minds for some reason.

It inspired an RFQ that was really one of those things you would now wonder if the Onion had written. One of those documents with the sorts of requirements that made you go "Ur?" And sadly, it was totally batshiat, and they really were serious. Basically, they wanted a Star Wars/Star Trek hologram instead of a physics sort of hologram. A REAL looking hologram, in HD, freestanding, with obscuration, rear surface culling, visible from all angles, with appropriate glint and with weather factors added in. Basically, it had to look like a real object, You couldn't be able to see through it, and the perspectives had to be right, and it had to do even wackier things like reflect appropriately - if you had a holomirror on your holocar, the holomirror had to reflect your face. And it couldn't "glow" - that is, if it were dark, then you had to "see" a dark object reflecting moonlight or whatnot. And it had to do this in fog, clear air, rain and do it appropriately for the weather condition.

Also it had to be able to produce sound. Your holocar just isn't holoreal if it doesn't have holoengine sounds coming from it.

Well, someone bid the damn thing. And spent a relative shiatheap of your tax dollars on it, quite cynically, I'd expect, although again, I'd like to think of it as tech-poor brass calling on tech-poor unnamed aerospace company leadership to produce an impossible result, which then got dumped on the engineering staff with Dilbertian results.

It never worked. It hasn't worked the other times it was bid out, which it was over and over. Think of an unkillable cash cow. Tech companies pounce on this thing like wolves on the last cow in a Texas desert every time it wanders by.

However, part of it DID work. The sound part worked. Sort of. And that's where the next part of the Bluebeam story comes in. The guys figured out how to make a plasma bloom with a variable volume, which you could use as a sort of flying loudspeaker, by intersecting some IR laser beams and pulse modulating one of them, so that the intersection point had enough energy density to bloom. The resulting sound is a bit like a talking chainsaw, although subsequent versions improved on it a bit. It also has this neat appearance, sort of a boiling ball of red-brown smoke if you crank it up. So you get a talking ball of fire, sort of like Sauron's Last Stand or something.

It's quite dramatic, although it's a long way from holo My Mother The Car. So, given that it's what they got out of it for their tax dollars, the unnamed aerospace company offered it as a sort of consolation prize. It was even productized - at least two working fieldable copies were made and delivered to Bad Tolz for use in Gulf War I for the very purpose claimed for "Project Bluebeam" - a talking ball of fire you could project over the other guy's troops to give the proclamation of Gabriel or something. Bush 1 decided it was both demeaning and pointless and had the two units shelved. I don't know if they got moved to Stuttgart.

Anyway, someone leaked the thing in distorted bits and pieces at some point, and I'm pretty sure that's where "Project Bluebeam" came from. Believe it, or don't.
 
2012-06-12 06:46:42 PM  

erewhon: Radio waves aren't charged, don't carry charge, can't induce net charge.


Sure, but why are we talking about radio waves, exactly?

italie: lets look at this logically. We recently have 4 examples of this previously unseen phenomena. A very precise and unnatural looking phenomena.


I've been logical from the start, and i'll repeat that these have more in common with aurora than they do with any kind of missile. I shouldn't have to explain why even failed missiles with some kind of top secret propellant aren't a plausible explanation. I won't hazard a guess as to exactly what's going on, but it's pretty easy to dismiss the missile explanation. The leaps of imagination and the breaking of the laws of physics required to accept that speak for themselves.

There's clearly more to this, and it saddens me to see such apathy from intelligent people and scientific communities. Eagerly grabbing whatever weak excuse is offered, so they can go back to ignoring it.
 
2012-06-12 06:56:57 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Sure, but why are we talking about radio waves, exactly?


I'm forestalling your appeal to HAARP/Tromso as the source of the spirals.
 
2012-06-12 06:58:42 PM  

Unknown_Poltroon: Flock of high flying migratory geese caught in a beam of sunlight? It was about an hour after sunset, they fly up to 10000 feet. If they flew down out of the last rays of light it would look like they dissapeared.


It would make an interesting explanation, except the sun had already set and the craft had a large visible outline. It also did not move or look like an actual flock of geese and the orange orbs on the underbelly were well visible and maintained formation and appearance as it very rapidly shot up into the sky.

My comment in the moment suggesting it was a flock of birds was more of an attempted quip than a realistic assessment of the object and the way it moved.

Nrokreffefp: There are thousands of anecdotal claims with no evidence. Also of people seeing Jesus, having near-death experiences, schizophrenia, mass delusions, sightings of the Jersey Devil, Bigfoot, Nessie, and chupacabras...visitations by ghosts, 'possessed' human beings...the list goes on.

In reality you were almost assuredly consumed by the same genetic weakness that led to the Salem Witch Trials - gullibility and a desire to see something. The problem is that there are thousand or tens of thousands of people saying things equally crazy as what you just said, and not a damned one of you bothered to obtain proof. I mean, I'll certainly read a cool UFO story, but I bet I could make up a better one (and probably more plausible).


Had I been able to provide evidence for you to see today I would have gladly done so.

The only gullibility I'll admit to is that after having witnessed the craft and its ascent into the stars I am certain in my conviction that it was not a craft of human design. I have a difficult time believing otherwise, but I cannot claim that belief as truth without having anything to present for it, and I don't expect you to either. If someone on this planet has invented such interesting technology, it's an absolute shame the majority of us don't have knowledge of or access to it.

I'm not asking you to blindly believe me. Skepticism is integral to discovering truth in our lives. I just know that what I (and the two other persons involved) witnessed was very real, and while it may not hold any tangible grounds to you, it has changed our entire life perspective.

I only hope that you may witness such an event yourself one day. Are all people who claim strange phenomena crazy or delusional? I very much disagree. It's our species as a whole who is mostly gullible, to truly believe we are complete masters of the world and the Universe around us with what little knowledge and ability we actually possess.

There was a time when the world was flat and that was the only way it could be. Your belief is no more valid than mine, and vice versa, but to dismiss any possibility until having properly experienced it or disproved it is to remain willfully ignorant.

erewhon: Don't feel bad, you're not the only one to have seen something quite similar. We saw one at a customer's site once.
They're not totally silent, though, although they can get quite close to you before you can really hear them plainly, and the sound is fairly odd.


This was the only deviance in the story between myself and the two other witnesses is the sound we witnessed. To me, the craft seemed relatively inaudible, while my friend has long stated that it emmitted a gentle hum.

I claim nothing more than to attempt to accurately share what I saw, heard, and felt to the best of my ability for the account in question. In the end, it will only remain my story for anyone who reads it, and while it is an absolute truth to me I am not selfish as to expect to turn the skeptics when I was once the same way.

I feel blessed to have had the opportunity to witness something as "crazy" as we did. Are all these UFOs we read about extraterrestrials, as opposed to human or natural events? No, but I wouldn't be so quick to judge either way.

There's just too many things as a whole we still don't understand a damn thing about.
 
2012-06-12 07:06:01 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: erewhon: Radio waves aren't charged, don't carry charge, can't induce net charge.

Sure, but why are we talking about radio waves, exactly?

italie: lets look at this logically. We recently have 4 examples of this previously unseen phenomena. A very precise and unnatural looking phenomena.

I've been logical from the start, and i'll repeat that these have more in common with aurora than they do with any kind of missile. I shouldn't have to explain why even failed missiles with some kind of top secret propellant aren't a plausible explanation. I won't hazard a guess as to exactly what's going on, but it's pretty easy to dismiss the missile explanation. The leaps of imagination and the breaking of the laws of physics required to accept that speak for themselves.

There's clearly more to this, and it saddens me to see such apathy from intelligent people and scientific communities. Eagerly grabbing whatever weak excuse is offered, so they can go back to ignoring it.


Ever seen a missile at high altitude? Not a nice h2-lox, lets show the cameras kind of missile, but some nasty, store-able propellant, launch on warning missile. The reason you havnt is that they dont fly over the United States. They always went out over one of the oceans. They didnt fly over Europe either. The Soviets avoided launching missile tests into western europe for some weird reason.

You make a big fuss about how no one has ever seen this sort of thing before without thinking for one moment why they might not have seen it before.
 
2012-06-12 07:12:36 PM  

blacksharpiemarker: To me, the craft seemed relatively inaudible, while my friend has long stated that it emmitted a gentle hum.


We heard something more like a distant turbine, with an occasional sound something like a CO2 fire extinguisher being popped off a block away. It was after the thing did the dramatic takeoff when we ceased to hear the sounds anymore that we realized they probably came from it instead of a building down the block. Mostly, we noticed it because it was reflecting sounds we were making - we were outside and very slowly it started to sound like we were inside a barn instead of being outside the building at night tossing a basketball around trying to wake up.

One of the guys looked up and said - where'd the moon go - and then it struck us that it was pitch dark over us, although you couldn't really make out a clear shape - we were under a streetlamp and it was tough to see the stars, there weren't enough bright ones to really pick out an outline. Then it turned on the marker lights, gained some altitude, and off it went.

Given where we were, and that when we went in the guys we were working with were all snickering, I'm pretty sure it was "spook the contractors", but it was really impressive.

/no, nothing happened, it's cold out there
 
2012-06-12 09:03:18 PM  
J Frank but you are absolutely correct, though I wouldn't necessarily describe the phenomenon that way.. Anyone who knows how an aurora works should agree with the concept you were trying to convey.

erewhon...step in to my office please. Radio waves are a form of electromagnetic radiation which quite commonly carries and induces a charge which polarizes the conductor it passes through and distributes said charge throughout the conducting object unevenly, and it is evident any time this type of energy acts on particles in our thermosphere producing the aurora effect. EM radiation most certainly induces an electrical charge on the surface of any conductor it passes through. In a nutshell, it does this by moving the electrons of the conductor material. If radio waves weren't exactly every thing you just said they weren't, the universe would be a very different place. We have the internet now, man. Google is your friend.
 
2012-06-12 09:23:15 PM  

jonathandh:
erewhon...step in to my office please. Radio waves are a form of electromagnetic radiation which quite commonly carries and induces a charge...


Nope. It's definitely electromagnetic radiation - thus it isn't charged and can't carry a charge. At all.


...which polarizes the conductor it passes through and distributes said charge throughout the conducting object unevenly


If you're trying to say it can stir electrons around, yep. It isn't a flow of electrons or ionic charge carriers (or holes, for that matter) though, in and of itself.


EM radiation most certainly induces an electrical charge on the surface of any conductor it passes through. In a nutshell, it does this by moving the electrons of the conductor material.


Doesn't induce a net charge, though, does it? Like I said. (hint - go back and read what I said) It doesn't create or destroy electrons, neither does it transport them. A conductor has no different net charge before or after being subjected to an EM field. Granting, I suppose, that you don't ring in EM energetic enough to cause photoelectric emission or direct nuclear effects.


If radio waves weren't exactly every thing you just said they weren't, the universe would be a very different place. We have the internet now, man. Google is your friend.


If you think radio waves can carry a charge, you need some reading comprehension that I'm not sure Google can repair
 
2012-06-12 09:31:37 PM  
To the point being addressed, jonathandh, it sounded as if JFrank was about to bring in the usual HAARP nonsense about creating aurorae by "charging the atmosphere" with a radio beam. One cannot deposit a charge with radio waves.

In addition, HAARP does not produce ionizing radiation, and so cannot directly ionize atmospheric gas, either. So it can neither apply nor remove charge, nor directly ionize the ionosphere. The only way you can get sparkly effects with it is by heating electrons, and letting the faster outliers do the job by collision. And there just aren't that many of them - it's visible with an image intensifier but not directly.
 
2012-06-12 09:35:20 PM  

jonathandh: it is evident any time this type of energy acts on particles in our thermosphere producing the aurora effect.


Not at all, by the way, aurorae are caused primarily by charged particle impacts from solar wind, not by EM excitation. There is a secondary airglow effect that's pretty difficult to observe that's caused by reassociation of UV ionized gas ions, so I guess technically that's caused by EM, but not radio waves.
 
2012-06-12 09:41:16 PM  
The gates of heaven are opening
 
2012-06-12 09:47:15 PM  

blacksharpiemarker: There was a time when the world was flat and that was the only way it could be. Your belief is no more valid than mine, and vice versa, but to dismiss any possibility until having properly experienced it or disproved it is to remain willfully ignorant.


That's not how it works. The person bearing the assertion has to provide proof, or I would actually be more ignorant to accept anecdotal evidence as authoritative. My opinion is more valid than yours, because I assert the null hypothesis, and you make a claim with no evidence. It is by nature disproven, until you do otherwise.
 
2012-06-12 09:59:22 PM  

blacksharpiemarker: It would make an interesting explanation, except the sun had already set and the craft had a large visible outline. It also did not move or look like an actual flock of geese and the orange orbs on the underbelly were well visible and maintained formation and appearance as it very rapidly shot up into the sky.


The sun had set where you were, but at altitude it might still be visible. Flocks of geese at a few thousand feet would have a lower effective horizon and still be able to see the sun.

I'm not calling you a liar, but I've seen this example myself. You can see a better illustration in mountain country. The sun sets below your horizon, but the tops of the mountains are still illuminated. When something crosses the terminator between illumination and dark it will effectively disappear. I've seen satellites in the night sky disappear as their orbit takes them out of the sunlight.

It's just one possible explanation.
 
2012-06-13 12:03:14 AM  
I take back all those mean things I said

/theyre street lights
 
2012-06-13 02:15:21 AM  

erewhon: jonathandh: it is evident any time this type of energy acts on particles in our thermosphere producing the aurora effect.

Not at all, by the way, aurorae are caused primarily by charged particle impacts from solar wind, not by EM excitation. There is a secondary airglow effect that's pretty difficult to observe that's caused by reassociation of UV ionized gas ions, so I guess technically that's caused by EM, but not radio waves.


Dude. Just got back to this thread due to friend induced Bataan death march.

That whooshing sound you heard was ALL your points flying over my head. Gonna' have to reread all this again with either more or less booze. Don't know which will help.

Thanks for trying though. I appreciate the effort. I really do.

/sheesh! It's like finally sitting at the grownups table when they're speaking English and you STILL can't follow WTF they're saying...
 
2012-06-13 04:52:16 AM  
They're just failed Russian missile tests that blew up and make that weird spiral effect. Seeing from the article, the spiral looks exactly like another one I saw in a photo over some mountains some time ago. Although I must admit, that is one creepy as all hell effect. It honestly has this element of malaise every time I see it... maybe because it looks a little too perfect for it to be a product of something that failed.
 
2012-06-13 06:13:36 AM  
I've seen some interesting things in the sky, but I still remain more of a skeptic than a believer.
I've always been very intrigued by both the Rendlesham Forrest Incident and the story behind the Allagash alien abduction. By far the most credible in my opinion.

Anyone unfamiliar with either should do a Unsolved Mysteries search for each on youtube.

Make for a great story nonetheless.
 
2012-06-13 06:44:07 AM  

blacksharpiemarker: Pintosbiehn: I'd like to hear it, I'm definitely a skeptic but for some reason, I find personal stories (and the details included therein) a whole lot more interesting than shaky video and general internets.

It happened back towards the end of April, 2005 just north of Toronto on a clear night (Sometime between 9-10pm). I had gone out for a walk in my local neighborhood with a close friend of mine and brother. We were close to finishing up our walk and were just a couple of minutes away from the house when my friend first noticed it. We were casually having conversation and he stopped silent, looking up with a rather startled look on his face. He states "What the hell is that?". I looked up and hovering (nearly inaudibly) above us (approximately 10 stories up, so relatively low) was a very large black triangular craft. The only visible lighting were a row of glowing orange orbs on two of the three sides. Truth be told, in the moment I wasn't sure how to react and jokingly said "A flock of birds?" to which he responded "Birds don't glow". Before the three of us had much more time to react, the craft ever so slightly re-positioned its nose towards a specific point into the night sky and with no sound or visible propulsion completely vanished (almost as if it had been sucked towards the destination point in the heavens it was facing, the best way I can communicate into the words the concept behind the visual experience). As I mentioned earlier, it was a completely clear night, the moon was out, there were no clouds, and the stars were well visible so it was quite clear that wherever it ended up, it was far outside the limits of our atmosphere.

We didn't know how to rationalize any of it, and a sense of awe and fear seems to set in shortly after you have a UFO encounter for yourself. I'm thankful my brother and friend remember the experience clearly and had the opportunity to see it with me. If I had been the only one to tell such a story they would have surely though ...


Here does this help?

about 35 seconds it gets interesting Clicky
 
2012-06-13 09:42:06 AM  

reverend maynard: I've seen some interesting things in the sky, but I still remain more of a skeptic than a believer.


I'm a skeptic of outer-space aliens as well. Not that some might not exist way the hell over there, but not flying around here.

(goofy grin) The Piney Woods incident is much, much better in terms of providing neat clues to the 'root cause', although Rendlesham is somewhat related. IMHO.
 
2012-06-13 09:48:51 AM  

JustinCase: Thanks for trying though. I appreciate the effort. I really do.


A bunch of the thread is in skeptic/believer shorthand, cluttered by my job-induced propensity to obfuscate this sort of topic so that the uninitiated are left confused. Where are you starting in terms of physics? I'll try to translate to 'non-geek', although I'm not sure I can post all the backstory of parts of it.
 
2012-06-13 10:56:10 AM  

erewhon: reverend maynard: I've seen some interesting things in the sky, but I still remain more of a skeptic than a believer.

I'm a skeptic of outer-space aliens as well. Not that some might not exist way the hell over there, but not flying around here.

(goofy grin) The Piney Woods incident is much, much better in terms of providing neat clues to the 'root cause', although Rendlesham is somewhat related. IMHO.


hey thanks for that. I was unfamiliar with it, but I went and read the wiki on it. Interesting stuff.
 
2012-06-13 04:06:28 PM  
Someone opened a jump point too close to the planet. Probably those nosy Vorlon's again.
 
2012-06-13 05:12:55 PM  

blacksharpiemarker: Another such event in Western Canada:

Video 1

Video 2

I've had a convincing UFO experience myself (and was likewise a skeptic beforehand of all those who have claimed such similar encounters). Once you see something like I did in person, you realize one of two things:
1) It's all true. We're not alone. There might be hope for this planet of ignorant apemen after all.
2) Our governments have in their hands technological marvels so incredibly advanced in comparison to those we're all familiar with that it's sickening to what degree the majority of the population is completely kept in the dark.

I'll share my UFO story if anyone is interested, even if I'm sure it'll be met with heavy criticism. I sometimes wish everyone had the opportunity once in their life to have such an experience. If anything, it gave me a fresh dose of perspective, something I feel the majority of us could use.


Those are gorgeous videos of re-entering boosters. Physics can be so very beautiful sometimes.

But why in the world did seeing this make you believe in UFOs? Do you have some reason to doubt the explanation? What would you expect a re-entering, liquid-fueled booster to look like? When you saw this and thought, "UFO!!!", did you check online to see if there was a convenient space launch about 20 minutes earlier, aimed to pass over your part of the world? Did you look at other similar videos on YouTube and note that every single one of them has been definitively confirmed by timing and a few by actual radar tracks to be disposable liquid-fueled boosters from space launches? Have you heard from a single physicist or rocket scientist that these can't be re-entering boosters because [insert some reason]?

I'm not intending to be rude; I honestly am looking for insight into the mind of someone who encounters a new thing and immediately credits aliens for creating it. Back when I was a teen, I witnessed a meteor make an abrupt right-angle turn. Certainly calling it a UFO occurred to me, but it never, ever reached the top of my list of explanations.
 
2012-06-13 05:17:52 PM  

blacksharpiemarker: [picture of a glowie triangle thing]


Sorry, I misunderstood you. Please disregard my previous post. I don't know what you saw, and won't call it aliens, but have no facts to throw into that particular sighting.
 
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