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(Slashdot)   Foreigners are taking jobs away from Americans. H-1B Visas running out earlier than prior years   (it.slashdot.org) divider line 34
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1812 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Jun 2012 at 9:48 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-12 09:07:17 AM
4 votes:
We've been trying to hire a junior DBA with 3 years of experience on SQL Server 2012, and the only resumes we get that meet that requirement are Indians. What are we supposed to do? If you Americans aren't willing to keep up with technology, we have no choice but to leave you behind.
2012-06-12 08:59:03 AM
4 votes:
Your elected officials are selling your jobs to Indians (mainly) like it was legal. Try not to elect them next time OK? If you can...
2012-06-12 09:12:19 AM
3 votes:
The H1B program is supposedly for jobs that Americans can't fill. Funny how the majority of them are grunts paid less than six figures and most are paid a lot less than the average American in the same position. It's almost like the tech industry is using it to depress wages. Strange, huh?
2012-06-12 01:43:15 PM
2 votes:

rumpelstiltskin: We've been trying to hire a junior DBA with 3 years of experience on SQL Server 2012, and the only resumes we get that meet that requirement are Indians. What are we supposed to do? If you Americans aren't willing to keep up with technology, we have no choice but to leave you behind.


What's the pay like? Is your problem you can't find any Americans to do the work for what you're willing to pay?
2012-06-12 12:25:52 PM
2 votes:
Here's how you fix this "supposed" H1-B Visa problem:

Step 1: Have the government match the tuition the foreign governments are paying to have their students study here
Step 2: Pay for said tuition through higher taxes on the wealthy
Step 3: Give preferential treatment to domestic grads and tax H1-B visa applications for companies at a greater rate (by 10%) than what the wage difference would be
Step 4: Summarily execute anyone who yells socialism or free market and leave their body on display untill the farking crows eat it as a warning to others

/Well... Would you look at that. A seemingly intractable problem solved with a few lines of ink and a few ounces of metal. Amazing.
2012-06-12 11:28:25 AM
2 votes:

qorkfiend: Marcus Aurelius: ex0du5: where I work (a major lobbying tech company mentioned in the article) everyone gets paid industry premium wages

You are the exception to the rule. If the labor market weren't artificially depressed, we'd have far more American kids looking to get into the field. HS graduates heard that all the tech jobs are going to Indians and Chinese, so why bother?

It's depressing even for those of us that do graduate with tech degrees (computer science in my case). There's either nothing available or there are absurd requirements for entry-level positions. There's people with 10-15 years of experience flooding the market; how are kids right out of college supposed to compete with that?


I got my BS in comp sci back in 1982. If I was looking at today's job market, there's no way I'd have gone into IT. Like you said, the jobs available read like a veritable nightmare of arcane prior experience requirements. In college they taught me how to RTFM. Give me the FM and in two weeks I'll know what I need to know to get the job done.
2012-06-12 10:44:52 AM
2 votes:
I am a DBA and where I work we just hired 3 H1B's (2 from China, one from India) as programmers. We needed people who were proficient in a specific language (CCL- Cerner Control Language). Sure enough it came out that we could have found people where proficient in it that were not H1B's. But it is a lot cheaper to go the H1B route, and they dont biatch about work / life balance that American employees want. Silly people dont want to be oncall 24/7 and not work 50-60 hour weeks.
2012-06-13 01:32:31 PM
1 votes:

Epicanis: To be fair, I am disturbed to find that I, too, didn't immediately pick up on the true nature of that comment. The fact that it looked plausible at first glance is not a good reflection on the state of US hiring practices...


Ayup. Hell, even jobs as low on the IT totem pole as tier 1 technical support are posted with certification, degree, and experience requirements. I actually saw one posting that required Network+ for a tier 1 customer support position in a call center.

I've worked tier 1 support, I did it all the way through undergrad. That's laughable. Even when you run into a problem that requires that level of expertise and if you know exactly what's wrong and how to fix it, and have the rights to do it, management culture is going to require you fill out the ticket and bump it up to tier 2 anyway. That's how it worked at my place of employment at least -- tread on tier 2's shoes in any way and there's hell to pay, even if it's a ticket that's so quickly and easily handled you get reamed for bumping it to tier 2 anyway.
2012-06-13 08:59:32 AM
1 votes:

AngryDragon: I have 4, yes 4, positions open for technical engineering positions. Three of which pay in the 100k range. I can't find ANYONE who is even remotely qualified. A lot look good on paper, but when I get American applicants with "Bachelor's degrees" in Information Security who have never configured a device or don't know what a firewall is, there is a serious problem.

The issue isn't the Visas. The issue is that, for the most part, American schools are turning out dumbass drones who don't know shiat. They feel good about themselves, but they can't function in a modern corporation.


Well, in the old days companies would hire fundamentally solid candidates and train them. This notion that people graduate from college and can step into mission critical roles is absurd, and has never been the case. Do you interview people from non-American schools that are able to do this?
2012-06-12 04:48:05 PM
1 votes:
Asinine requirements = need for outside people
Need for outside people = more people in talent pool
More people in talent pool = diluted wages
Diluted wages = greater profit for the people making up the asinine requirements

But yes, it's every single American worker in one industry "not keeping up." The probability of that happening is much greater than a few people being greedy.
2012-06-12 04:45:42 PM
1 votes:
Perfectly distilled in the comments:

"H-1B is a scam by which white collar companies (not blue collar, because they aren't cool enough) can fire American workers and then replace them with foreign workers who are so happy to get to the States that they will work for $10,000 less per year. (There are laws against this kind of wage farkery. They work the same as speed laws in Saudi Arabia: No one cares to obey or enforce them. The "shortage" of workers is a lie manufactured by Oracle, Microsoft, etc. in order to cut costs. Most of the comp sci classes I took were filled to the gills, and the program I got into in college was so impacted that I had to go in on another major and switch after the fact. It's like that in lots of places. fark all this H-1B nonsense, and fark all the liars and misinformed idiots who think we are just gagging for foreign labor. We aren't gagging for foreign labor. Larry Ellison and Bill Gates are gagging for foreign labor because they can be paid less."
2012-06-12 02:42:54 PM
1 votes:

GameSprocket: Lunaville: GameSprocket: qorkfiend: GameSprocket: I would worry about this more if the local area wasn't at functional full employment for developers right now. We just fired a guy and he was employed again within 3 weeks.

Where is this?

Twin Cities. The only drawback is you have to deal with the cold.

Despite being in Minnesota, you are allowed to recruit from Georgia Tech, MIT,and the University of California. Of course, your company will have to let someone at these institutions know that you have job openings versus leaping straight to applying for HB-1 workers.

You would also need to find people who are not under water on their homes and therefore unable to move. You also need to find people willing to move to MN. I am not sure why everyone thinks they should go to Seattle or Silicon Valley. Sure, there are huge employers there, but there are also a ton of other guys competing for the same job.


Fresh graduates are rarely underwater on a home. Of course, you might have to promote someone from within to make room for an entry level position. You might even have to (gasp) do a little employee training in order to give a college graduate a chance to gain some experience and make that work effectively for your company. Unfortunately, most companies would rather me stand in the lobby and shout the "f" word over and over again than hear any mention of "employee training". It's such a nasty, nasty term. I hope your company isn't like that.
2012-06-12 01:46:34 PM
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Smackledorfer: Well, the day is early my friend.

Well until it actually happens maybe it would be wise to hold back on lamenting about how "everyone blames immigrants for everything". There's clearly a problem with how companies use and abuse the H1-B system to leverage lower wages for everybody in a particular labor pool. There's nothing racist about pointing that out. The immigrants are getting screwed in that deal, too.


I should have more carefully worded things. Though, if you are going to take a term like "everyone" literally, then you should read it as something beyond "everyone in this particular thread" or even "everyone on fark". I wasn't intending to call everyone in the thread a racist, more biatching about how the real problems with worker pay are never going to be adequately addressed so long as country's tone regarding immigration is on such a simplistic and ignorant level. Perhaps my complaining about that did less to raise the level than it did lower it though, in retrospect. But shiat, look at Bush: he had some comprehensive views on immigration and it got reduced to "build a wall" by the influence of his own party. The liberals can't do much better: most conservatives I know think Obama is letting immigrants run roughshod over our borders and refuses to deport anyone, and most liberals seem to believe he's a vile scumbag filthmonger for not doing enough to help hispanics out. I dunno, I just wanted to rant I guess.

Can we chalk it up to a pre-caffeine moment? :D

I agree 100% that there are valid complaints about the H-1B program.
2012-06-12 01:27:31 PM
1 votes:

Smackledorfer: Well, the day is early my friend.


Well until it actually happens maybe it would be wise to hold back on lamenting about how "everyone blames immigrants for everything". There's clearly a problem with how companies use and abuse the H1-B system to leverage lower wages for everybody in a particular labor pool. There's nothing racist about pointing that out. The immigrants are getting screwed in that deal, too.
2012-06-12 01:22:55 PM
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Smackledorfer: I'm always struck by how strange it is that everyone blames immigrants for everything. The poor ones are taking ur jobs, the rich ones are taking ur jobs, etc.

It seems like most people here are blaming the companies that abuse the H1-B system, rather than the immigrants who are hired through it. Headline notwithstanding, of course (the headline is rarely anything but troll-bait anymore).


Well, the day is early my friend.

plc5_250: A certain Sterling place I used to work at in Troy Michigan wanted to hire in an H1b - not hire in a programmer but specifically an H1b. To make the hiring legal, they wrote the job description around the resume of the person they wanted to hire. For their public posting, they taped it to the wall in the break area right above the trash can. In 2 weeks time, nobody applied so they convinced themselves that there were no interested qualified applicants so they went the H1b route.

Surprise: the guy barely knew his way around Windows, let alone SQL/Visual Studio - the position he was hired for was essentially a SQL/Visual Basic/C++ programmer. I was laid off shortly after that due to "lack of work".


If this is typical of your company, how does it stay in business? If this is typical of all companies, why do we pretend that we operate in anything close to a free market?

/not meant as an attack on your csb, but rather a more general complaint about the discourse we have in this country. We treat free-market theory like Jesus wrote it himself, and then pretend shiat like this can't happen.
2012-06-12 01:01:42 PM
1 votes:

monoski: I am sure this has nothing to do with our education system falling behind and the continued cuts to education budgets will not cause this trend to continue...


You are right, it has nothing to do with our education system.

CSB:

A certain Sterling place I used to work at in Troy Michigan wanted to hire in an H1b - not hire in a programmer but specifically an H1b. To make the hiring legal, they wrote the job description around the resume of the person they wanted to hire. For their public posting, they taped it to the wall in the break area right above the trash can. In 2 weeks time, nobody applied so they convinced themselves that there were no interested qualified applicants so they went the H1b route.

Surprise: the guy barely knew his way around Windows, let alone SQL/Visual Studio - the position he was hired for was essentially a SQL/Visual Basic/C++ programmer. I was laid off shortly after that due to "lack of work".

/CSB
2012-06-12 12:52:16 PM
1 votes:
I am sure this has nothing to do with our education system falling behind and the continued cuts to education budgets will not cause this trend to continue...
2012-06-12 12:43:13 PM
1 votes:

Smackledorfer: I'm always struck by how strange it is that everyone blames immigrants for everything. The poor ones are taking ur jobs, the rich ones are taking ur jobs, etc.


It seems like most people here are blaming the companies that abuse the H1-B system, rather than the immigrants who are hired through it. Headline notwithstanding, of course (the headline is rarely anything but troll-bait anymore).
2012-06-12 12:11:26 PM
1 votes:

tobcc: I am a DBA and where I work we just hired 3 H1B's (2 from China, one from India) as programmers. We needed people who were proficient in a specific language (CCL- Cerner Control Language). Sure enough it came out that we could have found people where proficient in it that were not H1B's. But it is a lot cheaper to go the H1B route, and they dont biatch about work / life balance that American employees want. Silly people dont want to be oncall 24/7 and not work 50-60 hour weeks.


Which is supposed to be against what the H1B visa program in intended. It's supposed to only be if you cannot find qualified citizens. Though I have seen it all throughout the insurance industry. They take the job requirements, make them meet a candidate, post it in a small local paper and then they say, oh well, cant find anyone.
Well, they way it's going we will soon all have to go somewhere else to find jobs. Let's see, Germany has a strong economy, ooops, their companies have to actually prove they cant find a citizen before hiring from another country.
2012-06-12 11:48:11 AM
1 votes:
The H-1B is a good thing because it allows the US to benefit from the brain drain abroad. If these students and workers don't come to America, they will go to Europe.
2012-06-12 11:13:09 AM
1 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: ex0du5: where I work (a major lobbying tech company mentioned in the article) everyone gets paid industry premium wages

You are the exception to the rule. If the labor market weren't artificially depressed, we'd have far more American kids looking to get into the field. HS graduates heard that all the tech jobs are going to Indians and Chinese, so why bother?


It's depressing even for those of us that do graduate with tech degrees (computer science in my case). There's either nothing available or there are absurd requirements for entry-level positions. There's people with 10-15 years of experience flooding the market; how are kids right out of college supposed to compete with that?
2012-06-12 10:56:27 AM
1 votes:

Cinaed: Given that more and more of our high-level degrees are going to foreigners rather than former truck-drivers, is it any wonder we're giving those foreigners are getting more jobs that those same good honest Americans would never qualify for in the first place?


People with high level degrees expect to get paid high level dollars, and that is not what the H1B program is for. H1B people are always paid about 10% less than an equivalent American. What kind of highly intelligent foreigner is going to fall for that?
2012-06-12 10:54:05 AM
1 votes:

sweetmelissa31: Foreign students were getting 40% of US PhDs in science and engineering as of 2000 (Link); I think it's about 50% now. If we're awarding PhDs to them, why not keep them around?


I like that idea, but none of them are here under the H1B program. The H1B program is mainly used on low to mid level staff to save tech companies money.
2012-06-12 10:52:23 AM
1 votes:

Epoch_Zero: Marcus Aurelius: They're bringing it on themselves.

fark you. We have to do more and more ourselves, working longer and longer hours with less and less down time instead of companies hiring adequate staff and resources. We deserve every penny that we can manage to pry out of ignorant CIO yes men.

---

Illegals take jobs Americans are "too proud" to do:
THEY'RE TAKIN' OUR JORBS!!"

Legal immigrants taking jobs legally: 'THEY'RE TAKIN' OUR JORBS - STILL. AND COMPLETELY FAIRLY - BUT STILL!"


I agree with you 110%. The H1B program is a cruel joke that depresses American wages so that tech CEOs can line their pockets.
2012-06-12 10:24:11 AM
1 votes:

LazarusLong42: rumpelstiltskin: We've been trying to hire a junior DBA with 3 years of experience on SQL Server 2012, and the only resumes we get that meet that requirement are Indians. What are we supposed to do? If you Americans aren't willing to keep up with technology, we have no choice but to leave you behind.

I was going to take a shot at you for looking for three years' experience for an entry level position...

...but then I saw what you did there.


Yeah, you think it's a joke until you start reading Dice job ads. It's a real method to get H-1B visas for your slaves. There is no vetting process to see if a) the job requirements are realistic b)the recipients actually have the skills.
2012-06-12 10:16:15 AM
1 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: They're bringing it on themselves.


fark you. We have to do more and more ourselves, working longer and longer hours with less and less down time instead of companies hiring adequate staff and resources. We deserve every penny that we can manage to pry out of ignorant CIO yes men.

---

Illegals take jobs Americans are "too proud" to do:
THEY'RE TAKIN' OUR JORBS!!"

Legal immigrants taking jobs legally: 'THEY'RE TAKIN' OUR JORBS - STILL. AND COMPLETELY FAIRLY - BUT STILL!"
2012-06-12 10:09:12 AM
1 votes:
If the problem is that foreigners are taking our jobs, and we ran out of visas to give to foreigners who are taking our jobs, didn't the problem just fix itself?
2012-06-12 10:05:38 AM
1 votes:
Good lord I never thought such an awful headline would go green.
2012-06-12 10:01:32 AM
1 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: hinten: Foreigners are more intelligent and better trained for the type of jobs that H1B are intended for.

Help desk work is very demanding.


Depending on the specifics, it can be. I do it. I also get paid a fine, fine wage for doing it. That said, my company is Canadian, so that might be why.
2012-06-12 09:59:43 AM
1 votes:

rumpelstiltskin: We've been trying to hire a junior DBA with 3 years of experience on SQL Server 2012, and the only resumes we get that meet that requirement are Indians. What are we supposed to do? If you Americans aren't willing to keep up with technology, we have no choice but to leave you behind.


3 years of experience != not keeping up with technology.

It very likely could mean employment at a company not updating their technology. Doesn't mean the DBA doesn't know his shiat.

Also -
1) deemphasize technical learning, under fund schools,
2) lower supply of workers,
3) break supply/demand curve by hiring underpaid foreigners who are locked to your job
4) Profit!
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-06-12 09:59:01 AM
1 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: iti


Greedy Americans don't want to work for third world wages. If we would just lower our standard of living below third world standards we would be more competitive.
2012-06-12 09:56:43 AM
1 votes:

rumpelstiltskin: We've been trying to hire a junior DBA with 3 years of experience on SQL Server 2012, and the only resumes we get that meet that requirement are Indians. What are we supposed to do? If you Americans aren't willing to keep up with technology, we have no choice but to leave you behind.


I was going to take a shot at you for looking for three years' experience for an entry level position...

...but then I saw what you did there.
2012-06-12 09:54:42 AM
1 votes:
We couldn't legalize slavery, so we invented the H1-B instead.
2012-06-12 09:13:45 AM
1 votes:

rumpelstiltskin: We've been trying to hire a junior DBA with 3 years of experience on SQL Server 2012, and the only resumes we get that meet that requirement are Indians. What are we supposed to do? If you Americans aren't willing to keep up with technology, we have no choice but to leave you behind.


Three? Are you out of your mind? My company is demanding no less than 5 years experience on 2012 server AND Windows 8. Sounds like you're taking a real chance there.
 
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