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(NewsBusters)   Memes: Class sizes have never been bigger, nor have teachers been paid worse. Real Life: Class sizes are down 40% in 50 years and teachers make more than they did 27 years ago, even adjusted for inflation   (newsbusters.org) divider line 340
    More: Interesting, class size, teacher education, inflation  
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1844 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Jun 2012 at 10:47 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-12 10:49:55 AM
Anyone who looks at data not provided by teachers unions know this. Next you'll say people don't know administration size has more than doubled.
 
2012-06-12 10:50:31 AM
Oh, okay, so large classes don't exist.

OH WAIT AVERAGES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY
 
2012-06-12 10:50:37 AM
In 1960, there were 1.4 million public school teachers educating 36.3 million primary and secondary students. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 25.8 pupils.

In 2009, there were 3.2 million teachers - a 129 percent rise - educating 49.3 million students - a 36 percent rise. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 15.6 students.

You read that correctly: despite all the media carping and whining, average class size in this country has dropped by over ten students or 40 percent in the last 50 years.


The author is bad at math. The teacher/student ratio at a national level gives no indication of average class size.
 
2012-06-12 10:50:53 AM
In fact, and although I'm by no means advocating it, we could lose another 1 million teachers before we got back to the classroom size that gave most of us and education we were proud of.

Oh, conservatives.

You certainly are proud, aren't ya?
 
2012-06-12 10:50:57 AM

MyRandomName: Anyone who looks at data not provided by teachers unions know this. Next you'll say people don't know administration size has more than doubled.


School board intelligence is down 87%.
 
2012-06-12 10:50:58 AM
Somehow, I don't think those words mean what they think they mean.

It is Newsbusters after all. The bastion of truth and fair and balanced news busting into bite sized chunks for idiots to eat up.
 
2012-06-12 10:51:27 AM

fracto73: In 1960, there were 1.4 million public school teachers educating 36.3 million primary and secondary students. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 25.8 pupils.

In 2009, there were 3.2 million teachers - a 129 percent rise - educating 49.3 million students - a 36 percent rise. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 15.6 students.

You read that correctly: despite all the media carping and whining, average class size in this country has dropped by over ten students or 40 percent in the last 50 years.


The author is bad at math. The teacher/student ratio at a national level gives no indication of average class size.


Fixed for NewsBusters.
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2012-06-12 10:51:54 AM
Ahh, got it. If you just do simple division you can make sweeping generalizations! Walk into PS 217 in Brooklyn and count, then develop your new spin. Probably about how immigrants are ruining schools.. run with that, MC Derps-a-lot.
 
2012-06-12 10:52:38 AM
When my grandmother went to school, ALL the grades, K-12 were in the same class! Like 30 kids. It was a small town.
 
2012-06-12 10:52:41 AM
Inasmuch as this is a Newsbusters link, I think I can safely assume that it's nothing more than wrongly interpreted data accompanied by sandy-vagina whining.

Am I right?
 
2012-06-12 10:53:10 AM
You got me to click. Now I need to mop my brain up off the floor.
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2012-06-12 10:53:14 AM

MyRandomName: Anyone who looks at data not provided by teachers unions know this. Next you'll say people don't know administration size has more than doubled.


ohyou.jpg

You're so cute when you make things up and use the spin as your gospel truth.
 
2012-06-12 10:54:10 AM
Such statements ignore that according to the Census Bureau

And they chose the single word 'to' to hyperlink their evidence.
 
2012-06-12 10:54:41 AM
Did you know that 50 years ago, there was no such thing as DNA, so kids didn't have to learn about it in science class!
 
2012-06-12 10:56:16 AM

MyRandomName: Anyone who looks at data not provided by teachers unions know this. Next you'll say people don't know administration size has more than doubled.


Are you blaming teacher's unions for the size of school administrations?
 
2012-06-12 10:56:19 AM
The ratio really can't be calculated that far back without discerning actual classes.

For example, a good friend of mine is a special needs teacher. She has four kids with autism. In addition, each of those students also has their own para. So in her classroom there are five teachers (her + 4 paras) and four students. In the same school there are 18-22 kids in each classroom.

Sure, there are plenty of resources available now, but don't plan on your kid getting any unless they have an IEP that says they do.
 
2012-06-12 10:57:01 AM
Newsbusters: Where the truth is so borked that even Houdini couldn't figure it out.
 
2012-06-12 10:57:04 AM

fracto73: In 1960, there were 1.4 million public school teachers educating 36.3 million primary and secondary students. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 25.8 pupils.

In 2009, there were 3.2 million teachers - a 129 percent rise - educating 49.3 million students - a 36 percent rise. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 15.6 students.

You read that correctly: despite all the media carping and whining, average class size in this country has dropped by over ten students or 40 percent in the last 50 years.


The author is bad at math. The teacher/student ratio at a national level gives no indication of average class size.


In 1960, kids with learning disabilities were allowed to languish in mixed classrooms with the general student population or, in many cases, simply removed from the public schools. Now, those same students are provided with specialized education in the public schools (often required by law) which requires one-on-one or small group teaching. Author of TFA is comparing apples to applesauce.
 
2012-06-12 10:59:04 AM
www.bartcop.com

Union thugs are destroying this country!
 
2012-06-12 10:59:57 AM
Well, if NewsBusters says it, it must be true a gigantic steaming pile of rancid horseshiat.

/FTFM
 
2012-06-12 11:00:28 AM

BMulligan: fracto73: In 1960, there were 1.4 million public school teachers educating 36.3 million primary and secondary students. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 25.8 pupils.

In 2009, there were 3.2 million teachers - a 129 percent rise - educating 49.3 million students - a 36 percent rise. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 15.6 students.

You read that correctly: despite all the media carping and whining, average class size in this country has dropped by over ten students or 40 percent in the last 50 years.


The author is bad at math. The teacher/student ratio at a national level gives no indication of average class size.

In 1960, kids with learning disabilities were allowed to languish in mixed classrooms with the general student population or, in many cases, simply removed from the public schools. Now, those same students are provided with specialized education in the public schools (often required by law) which requires one-on-one or small group teaching. Author of TFA is comparing apples to applesauce.


This, a thousand times! For every licensed SPED specialist required, the average is skewed.
 
2012-06-12 11:00:28 AM
That ol' time education produced a generation that want government out of their medicare.
 
2012-06-12 11:00:31 AM
Real Life: NewsBusters is a propaganda site only linked to in order to drive page-clicks.
 
2012-06-12 11:01:02 AM
Well, you see, if I strip all historical context and boil this down to a simple equation devoid of all meaning, you'll see that our education system has never been better...
 
2012-06-12 11:01:13 AM

LasersHurt: Oh, okay, so large classes don't exist.

OH WAIT AVERAGES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY


Yeah, that was my first thought. It seems the author believes that every single classroom has the exact same number of students, and that it's impossible for some classrooms to have low number of students while other classrooms have a large number of students.

[malibustacy.jpg]

"Math is hard!"
 
2012-06-12 11:02:50 AM

fracto73: In 1960, there were 1.4 million public school teachers educating 36.3 million primary and secondary students. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 25.8 pupils.

In 2009, there were 3.2 million teachers - a 129 percent rise - educating 49.3 million students - a 36 percent rise. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 15.6 students.

You read that correctly: despite all the media carping and whining, average class size in this country has dropped by over ten students or 40 percent in the last 50 years.


The author is bad at math. The teacher/student ratio at a national level gives no indication of average class size.


Correct. It does not account for, and this is just one example, special needs teachers. MyRandomName, speaking from personal experience, how big were your classes (and how short were your buses)?
 
2012-06-12 11:05:57 AM
1. A 10% increase in average salary in (adjusted for inflation) over 27 years is only... (carry the infinity) is only 0.37% raise above inflation. WOW. I'm pretty sure the average school teachers job has gotten harder by more than 0.37%.
2. In my school district, class size HAVE never been larger, and the school year never shorter. 2/3 of the schools were built in the 70s and don't have cooling only heating. Replacement/repair bonds were spent on new schools since the city grew x2 it's size in ten years.
3. The "special needs unit" has 2 teachers/aids PER STUDENT. At my daughters elementary school there are 15 teachers for 400 and 10 teachers+5 aids for 7 kids. Yes there is an extra. So for 407 kids there are 30 teachers. Looks like a good ratio until you look into it.
4. CEO compensation went up 6 TIMES in 27 years. Imagine a world where teachers disappeared overnight. What would happen? Imagine a world where all CEO disappeared overnight, what would happen? But since they vote GOP its all good right? Teachers are bad because they vote Dem right?
5. When did America become a race to the bottom?
 
2012-06-12 11:06:44 AM

Chabash: BMulligan: fracto73: In 1960, there were 1.4 million public school teachers educating 36.3 million primary and secondary students. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 25.8 pupils.

In 2009, there were 3.2 million teachers - a 129 percent rise - educating 49.3 million students - a 36 percent rise. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 15.6 students.

You read that correctly: despite all the media carping and whining, average class size in this country has dropped by over ten students or 40 percent in the last 50 years.


The author is bad at math. The teacher/student ratio at a national level gives no indication of average class size.

In 1960, kids with learning disabilities were allowed to languish in mixed classrooms with the general student population or, in many cases, simply removed from the public schools. Now, those same students are provided with specialized education in the public schools (often required by law) which requires one-on-one or small group teaching. Author of TFA is comparing apples to applesauce.

This, a thousand times! For every licensed SPED specialist required, the average is skewed.


So in reality, education has improved significantly for the extreme bottom (disabled, and probably blacks as well, I'm sure their education in 1960 was horrid, today only slightly better so). Education has probably improved for the top as well, but I suspect for the average, its gotten significantly worse.
 
2012-06-12 11:07:23 AM
It is pretty impressive that right wing commentators have gotten people to villify people in middle class jobs instead of the ultra rich.
 
2012-06-12 11:07:36 AM

LasersHurt: Oh, okay, so large classes don't exist.

OH WAIT AVERAGES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY


A teacher probably taught you that.
 
2012-06-12 11:08:00 AM

LasersHurt: Oh, okay, so large classes don't exist.

OH WAIT AVERAGES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY


It's a balancing act, only a tragic one where little snowflakes are sacrificed for teachers' interests:

Teachers: Class sizes are too big!
Administration: Ok, we'll hire more teachers.
Teachers: Cool, but we can't really teach every session, we need planning time.
Administration: Ok, we'll give you one period a day for planning.
Teachers: Cool, but that means we still have the same size classes, we need more teachers!
Administration: We can't afford to give you both the raise you're looking for and a second round of teacher hirings - take your pick.
Teachers: Since you're forcing us to make a co-pay on our health insurance and pension benefits, I guess we have to take the money. Suck it, kids.
 
2012-06-12 11:08:48 AM
In 1985, the average public school primary and secondary school teacher earned $23,587 a year, or $49,309 adjusted for inflation. In 2011, he or she earned $54,220, a ten percent increase.

That doesn't seem like much, but as liberals constant complain that incomes for regular folks in America have been stagnant, public school teachers have actually done relatively well.

Consider too that in 2010, the median income across the entire population was $49,445.

Yes, the average public school teacher makes more than half the citizens he or she serves.


First I was complain how dumb it is to complain about a field that requires a college degree (sometimes more) makes more money (though not absurdly more or even close) than the average person.

Then I noticed that he's comparing "average" to "median."
 
2012-06-12 11:09:11 AM

fracto73: In 1960, there were 1.4 million public school teachers educating 36.3 million primary and secondary students. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 25.8 pupils.

In 2009, there were 3.2 million teachers - a 129 percent rise - educating 49.3 million students - a 36 percent rise. This represented a ratio of one teacher per 15.6 students.

You read that correctly: despite all the media carping and whining, average class size in this country has dropped by over ten students or 40 percent in the last 50 years.


The author is bad at math. The teacher/student ratio at a national level gives no indication of average class size.


Done in three. Not every teacher has their own classroom.
 
2012-06-12 11:09:17 AM
Payscale.com says otherwise. Avg teacher pay between $40k and $44k 2012 dollars.

Loss of $$$.
 
2012-06-12 11:09:20 AM
If they aren't claiming to want to reduce the number of teachers, what is the purpose of this article?

/In fairness to NewsBusters, at least this article isn't openly racist.
 
2012-06-12 11:09:28 AM

Chabash: This, a thousand times! For every licensed SPED specialist required, the average is skewed.


Not to mention, he doesn't say how he counted "teachers". Was it by drawing a salary? Because by that measure, all supply/substitute teachers are "teachers", even if they're working part time, so if there's more substitutes on the payroll, there'd be more teachers without changing class size. Was it by being a member of a professional association? I'm a "teacher", in that I'm O.C.T. certified and a member of the college in good standing and completely licensed to teach, but I'm not actually WORKING as a teacher (there's a glut of graduates right now, leading to 2+ year wait times to get on the substitute list).

Plenty of reasons why there might be more teachers today, without actually talking about class sizes at all.
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2012-06-12 11:10:03 AM

Garet Garrett: LasersHurt: Oh, okay, so large classes don't exist.

OH WAIT AVERAGES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY

It's a balancing act, only a tragic one where little snowflakes are sacrificed for teachers' interests:

Teachers: Class sizes are too big!
Administration: Ok, we'll hire more teachers.
Teachers: Cool, but we can't really teach every session, we need planning time.
Administration: Ok, we'll give you one period a day for planning.
Teachers: Cool, but that means we still have the same size classes, we need more teachers!
Administration: We can't afford to give you both the raise you're looking for and a second round of teacher hirings - take your pick.
Teachers: Since you're forcing us to make a co-pay on our health insurance and pension benefits, I guess we have to take the money. Suck it, kids.


Yes, that's exactly how it went. Your brilliance is without bounds. On the lower end, at least.
 
2012-06-12 11:10:35 AM
www.bartcop.com

It's always the ones on the left.
 
2012-06-12 11:11:14 AM
Also, many of those teachers are part-time (something which, I suspect, was much less common in 1960), and many of them are paid not by the school district but by the school's PTA. At our school, the PTA hires a part-time music teacher, a part-time art teacher, and several part-time tutors (most of whom aren't credentialed teachers, but whose supervisors are certificated).
 
2012-06-12 11:11:51 AM
I suppose we can always lock the special-needs kids up in the basement with a bucket of water and chemical toilet like they did in the old days, right?
 
2012-06-12 11:12:17 AM

Garet Garrett: It's a balancing act, only a tragic one where little snowflakes are sacrificed for teachers' interests:


You make the mistake of thinking teachers OR their administration determine how much money the education system gets funded with.

The real villains of your story are the taxpayers and politicians who decided education wasn't important, and forced the teachers and administration into making decisions that had no upside in the first place.
 
2012-06-12 11:13:36 AM
I watched class sizes rise over the course of my middle school and high school years. For those six years, the size of the graduating class went up every year, but the number of classrooms remained constant. I'll grant that that's an anecdote and not representative of the nation as a whole, but I don't appreciate being told that it's not "real life".
 
2012-06-12 11:13:59 AM
My wife is a teacher. A coworkers wife is a teacher. My wife teaches in a primarily title one area. She has class sizes of about 29-32, above 32 they generally split classes, take everyone to 26-27, until new kids come in.

My coworkers wife teaches in a high income district. One parent gave her an Ipad for a teacher appreciate day gift. The class size is 12.

Averages, hiding elitism and class warfare since, on average, 1652.
 
2012-06-12 11:14:21 AM

MindStalker: So in reality, education has improved significantly for the extreme bottom (disabled, and probably blacks as well, I'm sure their education in 1960 was horrid, today only slightly better so). Education has probably improved for the top as well, but I suspect for the average, its gotten significantly worse.


While I would certainly be willing to look at any evidence, my sense is that this isn't so. I can tell you that my son is getting a far, far better public education than I did.
 
2012-06-12 11:14:33 AM

Cinaed: I suppose we can always lock the special-needs kids up in the basement with a bucket of water and chemical toilet like they did in the old days, right?


Giving them both water and a toilet is redundant and a waste of precious resources
 
2012-06-12 11:14:35 AM

dougermouse: 4. CEO compensation went up 6 TIMES in 27 years. Imagine a world where teachers disappeared overnight. What would happen? Imagine a world where all CEO disappeared overnight, what would happen? But since they vote GOP its all good right? Teachers are bad because they vote Dem right?
5. When did America become a race to the bottom?


How about administrator salaries? I'd bet that at the same time that the city grew 2x the administrative staff at the school grew 3x or more, and the top people probably got at least a 25% raise.

As for #5, right about the time everyone was convinced that what's good for business is what's good for America.
 
2012-06-12 11:14:47 AM

fracto73: The author is bad at math. The teacher/student ratio at a national level gives no indication of average class size.


Actually, yes it does.

Now, that average may be misleading, but it *IS* the average. It may well be that the median class size, or the mode might be better metrics, but simply gainsaying the result when it's really grade school math just because you don't like it doesn't show a real depth of knowledge on the subject. Calling the person who calculated it "bad at math" just adds that double, juiced-in irony to your statement.

As an aside, I've seen class sizes go down in my local school district, btw, because there are fewer students. They had to actually shut down one of the 4 elementary schools and spread the students and teachers from that school to the others. My son had 25 kids in his 1st grade class before the transition, and he has 19 kids in his 2nd grade class after it. Just a single data point (well, several, as class sizes in the district are down across the board), but illustrative nonetheless.

/And yes, data is merely a collection of anecdotes.
 
2012-06-12 11:14:47 AM

Bleck: It is pretty impressive that right wing commentators have gotten people to villify people in middle class jobs instead of the ultra rich.


Take it down a thousand. It's hardly villifying teachers to point out that over the past few decades, they've been advancing quite handsomely as against the private sector. The article didn't call them fat cats, or really even take any swings at teachers at all, except to say that the incessant complaints about class size and the need to pay teachers more fairly is more PR than fact or at the very least fails to account for the fact that the taxpayers have gone to the mat many, many times in an attempt to address these issues - the fact that some of them remain has much more to do with how schools are run than the parsimony of local taxpayers.

If that's you're understanding of villification, your teachers did you a disservice.
 
2012-06-12 11:14:55 AM
We have 12.5 kids per teacher but our class sizes are generally 24. Some AP classes have 3 kids. Three sped teachers have 20 kids. Gym has 40 kids per teacher.
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2012-06-12 11:15:19 AM

AgonistAlex: My wife is a teacher. A coworkers wife is a teacher. My wife teaches in a primarily title one area. She has class sizes of about 29-32, above 32 they generally split classes, take everyone to 26-27, until new kids come in.

My coworkers wife teaches in a high income district. One parent gave her an Ipad for a teacher appreciate day gift. The class size is 12.

Averages, hiding elitism and class warfare since, on average, 1652.


Nono, facts aren't acceptable! You shut your fool mouth if you know what's good for you and get back to blaming the teacher's union!
 
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