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(Times Union)   Correlation between labor union participation and blue collar opportunities   (timesunion.com) divider line 130
    More: Scary, unions  
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4047 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Jun 2012 at 12:46 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-12 12:03:09 PM
What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.
 
2012-06-12 12:44:02 PM
Facts aren't as important as "feelings" and "ideology" in America. Which is why we're farked for a generation.
 
2012-06-12 12:48:48 PM

Therion: What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.


Therion: What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.


 
2012-06-12 12:51:44 PM
imgs.xkcd.com

/blue collar jobs are disappearing because of automation
//unions hurt blue collar workers because they make our schools suck and too expensive so they can't get better skills
 
2012-06-12 12:51:58 PM

NuttierThanEver: Therion: What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

Therion: What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

 
2012-06-12 12:53:04 PM

beta_plus: [imgs.xkcd.com image 459x185]

/blue collar jobs are disappearing because of automation
//unions hurt blue collar workers because they make our schools suck and too expensive so they can't get better skills


So.. correlation doesn't imply causation... but unions definitely are to blame for schools failing, because they exist.
 
2012-06-12 12:54:25 PM

LasersHurt: beta_plus: [imgs.xkcd.com image 459x185]

/blue collar jobs are disappearing because of automation
//unions hurt blue collar workers because they make our schools suck and too expensive so they can't get better skills

So.. correlation doesn't imply causation... but unions definitely are to blame for schools failing, because they exist.


You caught that little gem of hypocrisy too, did ya?
 
2012-06-12 12:58:03 PM

beta_plus: [imgs.xkcd.com image 459x185]

/blue collar jobs are disappearing because of automation
//unions hurt blue collar workers because they make our schools suck and too expensive so they can't get better skills




If YOU are paid less, how much better will you better will you be at your job?
 
2012-06-12 12:59:05 PM
Unions are a wonderful opportunity for middle-class lawyers and other 'labour leaders' to make an easy buck 'fighting' for the little guy. Don't get me wrong, I think the organization of labour is a good idea, unless the people doing the organizing aren't labour themselves, and the organization runs counter to the interests of the individual. Labour organization, like politics, needs to be organized on an issue-basis, not on a party-basis. Unions are parasites upon labour, just as parties are parasitical on the interests of the body politic.
 
2012-06-12 12:59:05 PM
We'll figure this out again later. Because we'll be hungry and tired again.
 
2012-06-12 12:59:13 PM

qorkfiend: NuttierThanEver: Therion: What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

Therion: What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.


What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.
 
2012-06-12 01:00:02 PM

Nurglitch: Labour organization, like politics, needs to be organized on an issue-basis, not on a party-basis.


You know literally less than nothing about labor organization.
 
2012-06-12 01:00:47 PM

Therion: What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.


It's almost like there was a reason that people unionized in the first place.
 
2012-06-12 01:00:55 PM
From 1973 to 2007, private sector union membership in the United States declined from 34 to 8 percent for men and from 16 to 6 percent for women. During this period, inequality in hourly wages increased by over 40 percent. We report a decomposition, relating rising inequality to the union wage distribution's shrinking weight. We argue that unions helped institutionalize norms of equity, reducing the dispersion of nonunion wages in highly unionized regions and industries. Accounting for unions' effect on union and nonunion wages suggests that the decline of organized labor explains a fifth to a third of the growth in inequality-an effect comparable to the growing stratification of wages by education.

Link
 
2012-06-12 01:01:29 PM
Its almost as if, since jobs are becoming scarce and therefore businesses can treat their employees like garbage because they can just crush them and get new ones, we need unions for their initial use - protecting workers from assholes.
 
2012-06-12 01:02:08 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Nurglitch: Labour organization, like politics, needs to be organized on an issue-basis, not on a party-basis.

You know literally less than nothing about labor organization.


Says the parasite.
 
2012-06-12 01:02:51 PM

Nurglitch: A Dark Evil Omen: Nurglitch: Labour organization, like politics, needs to be organized on an issue-basis, not on a party-basis.

You know literally less than nothing about labor organization.

Says the parasite.


Number one sign of "I got nothing" - get called out and just call the person a name.
 
2012-06-12 01:03:08 PM

Nurglitch: Unions are a wonderful opportunity for middle-class lawyers and other 'labour leaders' to make an easy buck 'fighting' for the little guy. Don't get me wrong, I think the organization of labour is a good idea, unless the people doing the organizing aren't labour themselves, and the organization runs counter to the interests of the individual. Labour organization, like politics, needs to be organized on an issue-basis, not on a party-basis. Unions are parasites upon labour, just as parties are parasitical on the interests of the body politic.


By that logic, corporations are parasites on everyone.
 
2012-06-12 01:03:39 PM

Nurglitch: A Dark Evil Omen: Nurglitch: Labour organization, like politics, needs to be organized on an issue-basis, not on a party-basis.

You know literally less than nothing about labor organization.

Says the parasite.


Uh huh. You know nothing or less than nothing about a lot of things, apparently.
 
2012-06-12 01:05:30 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Nurglitch: Unions are a wonderful opportunity for middle-class lawyers and other 'labour leaders' to make an easy buck 'fighting' for the little guy. Don't get me wrong, I think the organization of labour is a good idea, unless the people doing the organizing aren't labour themselves, and the organization runs counter to the interests of the individual. Labour organization, like politics, needs to be organized on an issue-basis, not on a party-basis. Unions are parasites upon labour, just as parties are parasitical on the interests of the body politic.

By that logic, corporations are parasites on everyone.


The neat part is, though, that that's actually true, whereas labor, or, at least, labor that falls somewhere along the radical spectrum (as opposed to "business-friendly" labor like many of the big AFL-CIO/CTW unions have been) is actually organized by and for the workers and is no more parasitic than your hands are parasitic on your arms.
 
2012-06-12 01:08:09 PM

LasersHurt: Nurglitch: A Dark Evil Omen: Nurglitch: Labour organization, like politics, needs to be organized on an issue-basis, not on a party-basis.

You know literally less than nothing about labor organization.

Says the parasite.

Number one sign of "I got nothing" - get called out and just call the person a name.


What, should I have done something clever declare that the parasite was really the one that knows nothing? Maybe I should have answered his counter-argument on a point by point basis, citing both facts, the current research on the subject, and personal experiences in labour organization. No, instead I just looked at his profile and pointed out his biased perspective. Clearly a sign that "I got nothing." You have certainly taught me a thing or two about arguing on the intarwebz.
 
2012-06-12 01:11:24 PM

Nurglitch: What, should I have done something clever declare that the parasite was really the one that knows nothing?


I'll be you also like calling people "illegals" too. You still have no idea how or why labor organizes. Your argument was dumb and fallacious to begin with.
 
2012-06-12 01:12:46 PM

Nurglitch: LasersHurt: Nurglitch: A Dark Evil Omen: Nurglitch: Labour organization, like politics, needs to be organized on an issue-basis, not on a party-basis.

You know literally less than nothing about labor organization.

Says the parasite.

Number one sign of "I got nothing" - get called out and just call the person a name.

What, should I have done something clever declare that the parasite was really the one that knows nothing? Maybe I should have answered his counter-argument on a point by point basis, citing both facts, the current research on the subject, and personal experiences in labour organization. No, instead I just looked at his profile and pointed out his biased perspective. Clearly a sign that "I got nothing." You have certainly taught me a thing or two about arguing on the intarwebz.


You probably SHOULD have gone with the "facts" route. It's less, you know, douchey.
 
2012-06-12 01:13:14 PM
We are in danger of becoming a nation of worker drones ruled by quasi feudal lords.

And certainly, she'd know. As a holder of a Ph.D. in American Gender History, and an associate professor of [not specified] in the Liberal Arts department of Schenectady County Community College, she's well versed in those subjects that would lend themselves towards this type of analysis. Or something like that.

Or could it be that she knows that without a faculty union and the exclusionary and monopolistic practices that attend today's academe, there's no farking way in hell anyone would pay her more then $0.25 for her opinions on American Gender History, let alone the viability and future of the labor movement in America?
 
2012-06-12 01:15:45 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.


Middle managers of the world, Unite!
 
2012-06-12 01:16:12 PM

Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: We'll figure this out again later. Because we'll be hungry and tired again.


Yup.

People are still largely very, very comfortable.
 
2012-06-12 01:16:55 PM

Garet Garrett: We are in danger of becoming a nation of worker drones ruled by quasi feudal lords.

And certainly, she'd know. As a holder of a Ph.D. in American Gender History, and an associate professor of [not specified] in the Liberal Arts department of Schenectady County Community College, she's well versed in those subjects that would lend themselves towards this type of analysis. Or something like that.

Or could it be that she knows that without a faculty union and the exclusionary and monopolistic practices that attend today's academe, there's no farking way in hell anyone would pay her more then $0.25 for her opinions on American Gender History, let alone the viability and future of the labor movement in America?


Can you use your fake internet lawyer skills to rebut her for us? Your arguments are always so well crafted.
 
2012-06-12 01:17:07 PM

Garet Garrett: A Dark Evil Omen: What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

Middle managers of the world, Unite!


Two divisive attack posts in a row. Your paymasters should be proud.
 
2012-06-12 01:17:12 PM
We won't be truly free until everyone makes minimum wage. Except me. And some friends.
 
2012-06-12 01:18:02 PM
Calm down, people! You can be sure that a living, thinking, feeling being like a corporation will be altruistic and do what's best for the nation and it's people as a whole and not be complete souless, black-hearted assasins of joy here to work you to death for as small a fee as possible while profiting as greatly as possible. This is a non-sustainable modality because as people age and die new people will come along to take those jobs just to surv...wait a second. Let's freak out, people! We're boned!!!!
 
2012-06-12 01:18:47 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Nurglitch: What, should I have done something clever declare that the parasite was really the one that knows nothing?

I'll be you also like calling people "illegals" too. You still have no idea how or why labor organizes. Your argument was dumb and fallacious to begin with.


You certainly have my number! How on Earth were you able to make that perspicacious deduction, Holmes? Why, I was just telling my corporate hierarch that the illegals were here to steal my job and make us all speak mooslim. You are obviously very smart, and hence very right about things as such.
 
2012-06-12 01:19:51 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Nurglitch: Unions are a wonderful opportunity for middle-class lawyers and other 'labour leaders' to make an easy buck 'fighting' for the little guy. Don't get me wrong, I think the organization of labour is a good idea, unless the people doing the organizing aren't labour themselves, and the organization runs counter to the interests of the individual. Labour organization, like politics, needs to be organized on an issue-basis, not on a party-basis. Unions are parasites upon labour, just as parties are parasitical on the interests of the body politic.

By that logic, corporations are parasites on everyone.


Yes. It's pretty much a case of divergent interests and agency, in that individuals must either second their own interests to that of the group, or face a conflict between those interests. In both cases the group serves its own interests, which are conspicuously not the interests of its members. Not to say that the formation of in-groups and out-groups in anyhow unusual, but unions stink of an attitude that says it's not 'fascism' when they do it.
 
2012-06-12 01:21:51 PM

phrenicmonkey: We won't be truly free until everyone makes minimum wage. Except me. And some friends.


Funny story, something very close to this actual argument was made back in 2010 by Kevin Hassett. Link

Kevin Hassett is a Romney economic adviser.
 
2012-06-12 01:23:12 PM

Nurglitch: in that individuals must either second their own interests to that of the group, or face a conflict between those interests. In both cases the group serves its own interests, which are conspicuously not the interests of its members.


How exactly do you see that? A union is organized BY its members to get a better deal FOR its members. The only complaint you could possibly come up with is whether it's inappropriate to have a voting majority making decisions, in which case I suggest you organize with a union that uses a consensus model.
 
2012-06-12 01:24:11 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: phrenicmonkey: We won't be truly free until everyone makes minimum wage. Except me. And some friends.

Funny story, something very close to this actual argument was made back in 2010 by Kevin Hassett. Link

Kevin Hassett is a Romney economic adviser.


THAT is a highly punchable face. Hassett, I mean.
 
2012-06-12 01:24:42 PM
There are times
When you find
Lobsters in a bucket
Can't climb out
Why won't they climb away?
Because other lobsters
Pull them down

Please don't be a lobster
Friends are best
 
2012-06-12 01:24:49 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Garet Garrett: A Dark Evil Omen: What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

Middle managers of the world, Unite!

Two divisive attack posts in a row. Your paymasters should be proud.


"Paymasters!" Watch out everybody, we're dealing with a rapier wit here!
 
2012-06-12 01:25:06 PM

Nurglitch: Philip Francis Queeg: Nurglitch: Unions are a wonderful opportunity for middle-class lawyers and other 'labour leaders' to make an easy buck 'fighting' for the little guy. Don't get me wrong, I think the organization of labour is a good idea, unless the people doing the organizing aren't labour themselves, and the organization runs counter to the interests of the individual. Labour organization, like politics, needs to be organized on an issue-basis, not on a party-basis. Unions are parasites upon labour, just as parties are parasitical on the interests of the body politic.

By that logic, corporations are parasites on everyone.

Yes. It's pretty much a case of divergent interests and agency, in that individuals must either second their own interests to that of the group, or face a conflict between those interests. In both cases the group serves its own interests, which are conspicuously not the interests of its members. Not to say that the formation of in-groups and out-groups in anyhow unusual, but unions stink of an attitude that says it's not 'fascism' when they do it.


So do you hold corporations as a group in the same deep contempt as you hold unions as a group?
 
2012-06-12 01:25:28 PM

HotWingConspiracy: rebut


Rebut what, the return of feudalism? Her statements (I can't even pretend to call them arguments) have reached the rarified status of self-rebutting.

Which doesn't stop you from accepting them uncritically, but I suppose the world needs your type, too.
 
2012-06-12 01:26:33 PM

Nurglitch: A Dark Evil Omen: Garet Garrett: A Dark Evil Omen: What we increasingly see in retrospect is that the end of union strength was also the beginning of the shrinking of the middle class and growth in wealth inequality not seen since the Gilded Age.

Middle managers of the world, Unite!

Two divisive attack posts in a row. Your paymasters should be proud.

"Paymasters!" Watch out everybody, we're dealing with a rapier wit here!


4.bp.blogspot.com

Bored now.
 
2012-06-12 01:27:12 PM

Nurglitch: In both cases the group serves its own interests, which are conspicuously not the interests of its members.


If a union isn't serving it's member's interests, it probably won't last too long.
 
2012-06-12 01:27:29 PM

Garet Garrett: We are in danger of becoming a nation of worker drones ruled by quasi feudal lords.

And certainly, she'd know. As a holder of a Ph.D. in American Gender History, and an associate professor of [not specified] in the Liberal Arts department of Schenectady County Community College, she's well versed in those subjects that would lend themselves towards this type of analysis. Or something like that.

Or could it be that she knows that without a faculty union and the exclusionary and monopolistic practices that attend today's academe, there's no farking way in hell anyone would pay her more then $0.25 for her opinions on American Gender History, let alone the viability and future of the labor movement in America?
WOMEN AND EDUCATED PEOPLE TERRIFY ME! AND, I AM ENVIOUS OF UNION MEMBERS BECAUSE THEY MAKE MORE THAN ME!


of course they do. And of course you are.
 
2012-06-12 01:27:44 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: Two divisive attack posts in a row.


Should I not have pointed out her qualifications? Is that an attack?
 
2012-06-12 01:28:19 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Nurglitch: In both cases the group serves its own interests, which are conspicuously not the interests of its members.

If a union isn't serving it's member's interests, it probably won't last too long.


Rightists like to believe and perpetuate this weird myth that there's this huge base of people who really want to work long hours for now pay and organized labor holds them back.
 
2012-06-12 01:28:46 PM

Garet Garrett: HotWingConspiracy: rebut

Rebut what, the return of feudalism? Her statements (I can't even pretend to call them arguments) have reached the rarified status of self-rebutting.


This has never discouraged you from posting long winded screeds full of half baked buzz phrases in the past.
 
2012-06-12 01:29:21 PM
What happened to the original idea of union dues? Back in the day, union dues were supposed to be collected and saved so that if the workers went on strike they could use those dues to live off of and manage to stay on strike until the company negotiated better wages/conditions for those workers.

Today union dues go directly to union fatcats. Union members have no protection if they are told to go on strike. How is it exactly that unions benefit the worker...?
 
2012-06-12 01:29:29 PM
Admittedly I'm stupid, but I think I'm hearing mixed messages these days. On the one hand, I hear how we need unions and collective bargaining to protect blue-collar workers and on the other, it seems that I'm constantly told by the same people that the best way to protect myself is to invest in higher education so that I can avoid becoming a blue-collar worker in the first place. Is a decent blue-collar job the carrot or the stick?
 
2012-06-12 01:29:56 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: HotWingConspiracy: Nurglitch: In both cases the group serves its own interests, which are conspicuously not the interests of its members.

If a union isn't serving it's member's interests, it probably won't last too long.

Rightists like to believe and perpetuate this weird myth that there's this huge base of people who really want to work long hours for now pay and organized labor holds them back.


Hey whenever I go into a Walmart the workers always seem happy.
 
2012-06-12 01:30:05 PM

ghare: WOMEN AND EDUCATED PEOPLE TERRIFY ME! AND, I AM ENVIOUS OF UNION MEMBERS BECAUSE THEY MAKE MORE THAN ME!


That is highly offensive to educated people.
 
2012-06-12 01:31:10 PM

HotWingConspiracy: half baked buzz phrases


What's that? Seems like if it's half baked, it's not a buzz phrase. Back to metaphor school for you!
 
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