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(USA Today)   North Dakota voters are about to completely eliminate their property taxes, which bring in about $800 million and pay for schools, fire fighters, and police. How will they make up the money? "Uh...the State will give it to us"   (usatoday.com) divider line 442
    More: Dumbass, North Dakota, property taxes, Tax Foundation, North Dakota voters  
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8478 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Jun 2012 at 1:23 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-12 05:16:03 PM

FrailChild: friggin pensions!


Yeah because people who worked their whole lives don't deserve any kind of comfort in their golden years.

ABSOLUTELY.
 
2012-06-12 05:16:16 PM

intelligent comment below: And I bet your degree is from ITT Tech.


Listen, I know Democrats hate the working class, but I thought you pretended you were on our side? :)
 
rka
2012-06-12 05:17:15 PM

whidbey: Karac: You don't know how ballot measures work in states with an Initiative process do you?

No elected official was needed to put this on the ballot.

OK, so I was wrong. I apologize for my ignorance.


State ballot initiatives sound like a good idea in principle, but time and again are usually some stupid ignorant disgruntled anti-government measure involving taxation or revenue, and they prey upon stupid disgruntled anti-government people in rural areas for their signatures. (See=Tim Eyman).


I'm not defending this particular measure but it's not like forcing everything through the legislature weeds out the stupid, ignorant and disgruntled. Not even in the tiniest bit.

See: Most elected officials in Washington DC.
 
2012-06-12 05:17:17 PM

ourbigdumbmouth: I get that the property tax pays for pipes, sewage, polls, ect.


No you don't.

But in philosophy, I don't like it. It's a tithe.

Actually it's a property tax. See above.


Meaning, once I buy, say a guitar, I pay tax on it once. The govt won't come take it. The tax was up front.


Why do I get the impression that you blast classic rock all day?
 
2012-06-12 05:17:18 PM

whidbey: FrailChild: friggin pensions!

Yeah because people who worked their whole lives don't deserve any kind of comfort in their golden years.

ABSOLUTELY.


You're right, what am I thinking - they deserve to live off 90% of their working salary & retire early. Because that's totally reasonable compared to the private sector!!
 
2012-06-12 05:19:23 PM

rka: I'm not defending this particular measure but it's not like forcing everything through the legislature weeds out the stupid, ignorant and disgruntled. Not even in the tiniest bit.

See: Most elected officials in Washington DC.


Actually, there isn't even a comparison. Also, you can vote out elected officials. To nullify a ballot initiative usually takes a nice chunk of change that could have been spent on something else. Something good.
 
rka
2012-06-12 05:20:32 PM

ourbigdumbmouth: whidbey: ourbigdumbmouth: I'm against property tax on the basis you never really own the property.

you wat?

Do you have some land you could just fork over to me for free because you "don't really own it?" I'd love to take it off your hands.

Meaning, once I buy, say a guitar, I pay tax on it once. The govt won't come take it. The tax was up front.

With property tax, its yearly. It can be taken back if you don't have the money pay to up.

I get that the property tax pays for pipes, sewage, polls, ect.

But in philosophy, I don't like it. It's a tithe.

And if you have the money you can get the govt to do one of the eminant domain things.


Today it pays for pipes and sewage...tomorrow it pays for a school, the next day it pays for something else.

Unless you think government should just lay down your water lines and never maintain them. You are constantly benefiting, why shouldn't you constantly pay?

Your guitar analogy would only hold if you payed for the guitar one time but got free upgrades every time the company made a new model.
 
2012-06-12 05:21:20 PM

FrailChild: intelligent comment below: And I bet your degree is from ITT Tech.

Listen, I know Democrats hate the working class, but I thought you pretended you were on our side? :)



Yes, nothing says hate the working class like pro-union democrats...

The problem is when uneducated children try and decide complicated topics like civics and economics when they have no education in anything related.

All you RON PAUL fans are military welfare queens who would be failures in life if it weren't for Uncle Sam, and you project that insecurity every day.
 
2012-06-12 05:21:40 PM

FrailChild: whidbey: FrailChild: friggin pensions!

Yeah because people who worked their whole lives don't deserve any kind of comfort in their golden years.

ABSOLUTELY.

You're right, what am I thinking - they deserve to live off 90% of their working salary & retire early. Because that's totally reasonable compared to the private sector!!


The private sector's pensions got gutted 30 years ago by high-flying managers and executives who wanted to make more money than they already were.
 
2012-06-12 05:21:42 PM

FrailChild: whidbey: FrailChild: friggin pensions!

Yeah because people who worked their whole lives don't deserve any kind of comfort in their golden years.

ABSOLUTELY.

You're right, what am I thinking - they deserve to live off 90% of their working salary & retire early. Because that's totally reasonable compared to the private sector!!


I'd say it's pretty clear that you don't understand what inflation is, that things actually cost money, that social services aren't just something you can "cut," and that you have a general disdain for retirement pensions.

That pretty much negates any of your other concerns.
 
2012-06-12 05:22:16 PM

FrailChild: whidbey: FrailChild: friggin pensions!

Yeah because people who worked their whole lives don't deserve any kind of comfort in their golden years.

ABSOLUTELY.

You're right, what am I thinking - they deserve to live off 90% of their working salary & retire early. Because that's totally reasonable compared to the private sector!!


People should have to work until the day they die!!! Anything less is Socialism!!!
 
rka
2012-06-12 05:23:25 PM

whidbey: Also, you can vote out elected officials. To nullify a ballot initiative usually takes a nice chunk of change that could have been spent on something else. Something good.


So does voting out incumbent elected officials. If I had to wager I'd say it takes more money to vote out an entrenched politician than it does to rally a bit of support around quashing some kook's idea.
 
2012-06-12 05:23:27 PM
Actually, I'd support eliminating property taxes on a person's primary residence. It's a regressive tax that hurts a lot of low-income people trying to own a home. That'd be a lot of money that would have to be made up with a tax increase elsewhere, though.
 
2012-06-12 05:23:32 PM

FrailChild: You're right, what am I thinking - they deserve to live off 90% of their working salary & retire early. Because that's totally reasonable compared to the private sector!!



My private sector job also supplies a pension as well as a matched 401k. This is what they offered when I signed up, and just like a public sector employee, I'd expect them to keep their contractual word when I retire.

It's libertarians like yourself who are under the impression the world around you exists to serve the ruling class. You worship your feudal lords because you honestly believe one day you will have that power.
 
2012-06-12 05:24:39 PM

whidbey: I'd say it's pretty clear that you don't understand



He already admitted to supporting RON PAUL. So I'd say the rest of this is pretty obvious.
 
2012-06-12 05:24:56 PM
The Oil and Natural gas industry look around nervously...
They'll end up having added taxes and just jack up prices so that the rest of us essentially pay ND's property tax. Kinda smart on their part actually.
 
2012-06-12 05:26:46 PM

FuturePastNow: Actually, I'd support eliminating property taxes on a person's primary residence. It's a regressive tax that hurts a lot of low-income people trying to own a home. That'd be a lot of money that would have to be made up with a tax increase elsewhere, though.


Property taxes based on a progressive system like income taxes doesn't sound like such a bad idea.

But then again, if people can't afford something as simple as owning a home, there are other factors involved. Like *cough* stagnant wages and salaries.
 
2012-06-12 05:26:48 PM

FrailChild: whidbey: FrailChild: friggin pensions!

Yeah because people who worked their whole lives don't deserve any kind of comfort in their golden years.

ABSOLUTELY.

You're right, what am I thinking - they deserve to live off 90% of their working salary & retire early. Because that's totally reasonable compared to the private sector!!


It's in their employment contract. Why do you hate contracts?
 
2012-06-12 05:26:54 PM

FuturePastNow: Actually, I'd support eliminating property taxes on a person's primary residence. It's a regressive tax that hurts a lot of low-income people trying to own a home. That'd be a lot of money that would have to be made up with a tax increase elsewhere, though.


Ya, can you say sales tax? My guess is they are probably paying less in property taxes then they would in sales taxes.
 
rka
2012-06-12 05:27:41 PM

Serious Black: FrailChild: whidbey: FrailChild: friggin pensions!

Yeah because people who worked their whole lives don't deserve any kind of comfort in their golden years.

ABSOLUTELY.

You're right, what am I thinking - they deserve to live off 90% of their working salary & retire early. Because that's totally reasonable compared to the private sector!!

The private sector's pensions got gutted 30 years ago by high-flying managers and executives who wanted to make more money than they already were.


My uncle took an early retirement from Coors 22 years ago. They still are paying him every penny of his pension.
 
2012-06-12 05:27:44 PM

FrailChild: whidbey: FrailChild: friggin pensions!

Yeah because people who worked their whole lives don't deserve any kind of comfort in their golden years.

ABSOLUTELY.

You're right, what am I thinking - they deserve to live off 90% of their working salary & retire early. Because that's totally reasonable compared to the private sector!!


The average retirement age for government employees varies from department to department, as does the amount of their wage that the pension equals. To suggest that all, or even most, retired government employees did so "early", and are currently earning 90% of their working salary is disingenuous, at best.
 
2012-06-12 05:27:52 PM

rka: ourbigdumbmouth: whidbey: ourbigdumbmouth: I'm against property tax on the basis you never really own the property.

you wat?

Do you have some land you could just fork over to me for free because you "don't really own it?" I'd love to take it off your hands.

Meaning, once I buy, say a guitar, I pay tax on it once. The govt won't come take it. The tax was up front.

With property tax, its yearly. It can be taken back if you don't have the money pay to up.

I get that the property tax pays for pipes, sewage, polls, ect.

But in philosophy, I don't like it. It's a tithe.

And if you have the money you can get the govt to do one of the eminant domain things.

Today it pays for pipes and sewage...tomorrow it pays for a school, the next day it pays for something else.

Unless you think government should just lay down your water lines and never maintain them. You are constantly benefiting, why shouldn't you constantly pay?

Your guitar analogy would only hold if you payed for the guitar one time but got free upgrades every time the company made a new model.


As I stated raise the sales / income tax or do a local gas or water tax. I'm more into usage taxes.

And for the record I blast The Wiggles all day at work making balloon animals and doing some serious sql.
 
2012-06-12 05:28:40 PM

ourbigdumbmouth: Meaning, once I buy, say a guitar, I pay tax on it once.


If it isn't acoustic you have to pay for the electricity to power it.

ourbigdumbmouth: I get that the property tax pays for pipes, sewage, polls, ect.


Apparently not.
 
2012-06-12 05:28:56 PM

rka: whidbey: Also, you can vote out elected officials. To nullify a ballot initiative usually takes a nice chunk of change that could have been spent on something else. Something good.

So does voting out incumbent elected officials. If I had to wager I'd say it takes more money to vote out an entrenched politician than it does to rally a bit of support around quashing some kook's idea.


Not if we're talking government being the one who has to quash some kook's initiative after it's been passed. Especially in some cash-strapped state government. I'd bet both scenarios are substantial.
 
2012-06-12 05:29:08 PM

FuturePastNow: Actually, I'd support eliminating property taxes on a person's primary residence. It's a regressive tax that hurts a lot of low-income people trying to own a home. That'd be a lot of money that would have to be made up with a tax increase elsewhere, though.


So, then you'd not support eliminating the property taxes on a person's primary residence...?
 
2012-06-12 05:30:34 PM

intelligent comment below: whidbey: I'd say it's pretty clear that you don't understand


He already admitted to supporting RON PAUL. So I'd say the rest of this is pretty obvious.


Like I said, unintentional comedy. Only it isn't that funny. He should sprinkle in a few FEMA camps for color.
 
2012-06-12 05:30:42 PM
For groups that say they hate California, they sure do love California style tax protest laws.
 
2012-06-12 05:35:28 PM

meat0918: For groups that say they hate California, they sure do love California style tax protest laws.


Anyone from ND will tell you they're stuck in the 1970s.
 
2012-06-12 05:35:29 PM
So, when someone's house burns and no one shows up to help, when police never respond to a crime report, when schools close because the teachers are unemployed, ND residents can look at themselves and say "good job us!"

MORONS!
 
2012-06-12 05:39:20 PM

Blues_X: Measure 2, as the proposal is called on the ballot, would require state government to make up for property tax revenue lost by local governments but doesn't specify how.


That's some goddamned genius-level planning.


Hopefully, the state congress up there doubles the income tax overnight on these idiots.
 
2012-06-12 05:40:03 PM
This is ALMOST reason to move to North Dakota. With no property taxes, there would be nothing stopping anyone from simply buying land and creating an economy that doesn't rely on buying and selling, and then tell the entire government and capitalist system to fark off.
 
2012-06-12 05:42:30 PM
Let the state pay for it with some other as yet undescribed tax revenue! Brilliant!
 
2012-06-12 05:43:04 PM

RanDomino: With no property taxes, there would be nothing stopping anyone from simply buying land and


Creating shiat-tons of strip malls that would then go bust after a few years.
 
2012-06-12 05:45:51 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: So, when someone's house burns and no one shows up to help, when police never respond to a crime report, when schools close because the teachers are unemployed, ND residents can look at themselves and say "good job us!"

MORONS!


No no no, they are going to get the money from the oil companies you see, because they just love taxing oil companies in ND.
 
2012-06-12 05:52:45 PM

The_Sheriff_Is_A_Niiii: Pincy: Please do it North Dakota, please do it! I'm really looking forward to the look on your face when you ultimately come begging to the Feds for money and they close the door on your ass.

They would have to get in line behind your workers paradises California and Illinois. Meanwhile, they'll sit back and count up their massive surplus again.


... If only they didn't eliminate the main funding for their schools, maybe the could do that, but instead they'll just have to count to potato.
 
2012-06-12 05:54:31 PM

Sabyen91: ourbigdumbmouth: Meaning, once I buy, say a guitar, I pay tax on it once.

If it isn't acoustic you have to pay for the electricity to power it.

ourbigdumbmouth: I get that the property tax pays for pipes, sewage, polls, ect.

Apparently not.


I wonder if one can understand a concept and yet not agree with it.

Hrmm.

I guess not.

And you don't play a guitar. You leave it in the box or else It's worth nothing
 
2012-06-12 05:56:30 PM

ourbigdumbmouth: Sabyen91: ourbigdumbmouth: Meaning, once I buy, say a guitar, I pay tax on it once.

If it isn't acoustic you have to pay for the electricity to power it.

ourbigdumbmouth: I get that the property tax pays for pipes, sewage, polls, ect.

Apparently not.

I wonder if one can understand a concept and yet not agree with it.

Hrmm.

I guess not.

And you don't play a guitar. You leave it in the box or else It's worth nothing


You say you are for more use taxes but property owners use the infrastructure you spoke of the most. So I am not quite sure how you see a sales tax as more equitable or fair.
 
2012-06-12 05:58:10 PM
Measure 2, as the proposal is called on the ballot, would require state government to make up for property tax revenue lost by local governments but doesn't specify how...

How cute, they're letting spider monkeys type up legislative bills in North Dakota now...
 
2012-06-12 06:00:43 PM

FrailChild: You're right, what am I thinking - they deserve to live off 90% of their working salary & retire early. Because that's totally reasonable compared to the private sector!!


They do when that is one of the benefits they are given with their job... Eliminate or cut back pensions? Fine, but people already on the pension bus get to keep on keepin' on.
 
2012-06-12 06:06:20 PM

ourbigdumbmouth: I get that the property tax pays for pipes, sewage, polls, ect.


Electrical distribution, gas lines, sidewalks, a coherent numbering system for streets, stop lights, people to enforce laws, people to put out fires, equipment and facilities for these people, management of all of this money, 4th of July fireworks, parks, city parking, city pools, community centers, street lights, elections, county/city/state officials, search and rescue teams, disaster shelters, emergency response, etc...

The idea behind property tax is that the property owner is making an investment in the health of the community as a whole, as opposed to someone who may live there a year and move on. You don't want to invest, then don't invest, if you get my drift...
 
2012-06-12 06:06:34 PM
It's OK, everyone is going to buy Gold instead!
 
2012-06-12 06:08:27 PM

Mikey1969: Electrical distribution, gas lines, sidewalks, a coherent numbering system for streets, stop lights, people to enforce laws, people to put out fires, equipment and facilities for these people, management of all of this money, 4th of July fireworks, parks, city parking, city pools, community centers, street lights, elections, county/city/state officials, search and rescue teams, disaster shelters, emergency response, etc...


SOCIALISM!
 
2012-06-12 06:09:04 PM

ourbigdumbmouth: And for the record I blast The Wiggles all day at work making balloon animals and doing some serious sql.


That's so funny, it's the perfect way to end the day! I can totally picture it, too...
 
2012-06-12 06:13:18 PM
This will make a nice thesis for some social psychologist, somewhere.
 
2012-06-12 06:19:09 PM

NuttierThanEver: You know as crappily as the current state of the US is plotted and the gaps in logic displayed by some to the principal characters I would swear we are being directed by Kevin Costner in the prequel to The Postman


You have a point: Just today I was asking myself what my motivation is, and couldn't figure out any.
 
2012-06-12 06:24:56 PM

Bacontastesgood: NuttierThanEver: You know as crappily as the current state of the US is plotted and the gaps in logic displayed by some to the principal characters I would swear we are being directed by Kevin Costner in the prequel to The Postman

You have a point: Just today I was asking myself what my motivation is, and couldn't figure out any.


Your login is the answer you seek.
 
2012-06-12 06:25:04 PM

RanDomino: and then tell the entire government and capitalist system to fark off.



Unless there's oil or gas on that land, how exactly do you propose to make money? You'd be begging the federal government for more spending in no time.
 
2012-06-12 06:25:38 PM

Mikey1969: ourbigdumbmouth: I get that the property tax pays for pipes, sewage, polls, ect.

Electrical distribution, gas lines, sidewalks, a coherent numbering system for streets, stop lights, people to enforce laws, people to put out fires, equipment and facilities for these people, management of all of this money, 4th of July fireworks, parks, city parking, city pools, community centers, street lights, elections, county/city/state officials, search and rescue teams, disaster shelters, emergency response, etc...

The idea behind property tax is that the property owner is making an investment in the health of the community as a whole, as opposed to someone who may live there a year and move on. You don't want to invest, then don't invest, if you get my drift...


Yeah I do get the drift and thats why I think a higher local income tax would be better.

But hey we want the same things, just have different ways of getting there.
 
2012-06-12 06:27:02 PM

intelligent comment below: RanDomino: and then tell the entire government and capitalist system to fark off.


Unless there's oil or gas on that land, how exactly do you propose to make money? You'd be begging the federal government for more spending in no time.


He wants to go Lord of the Flies out in the Badlands somewhere. There probably wouldn't be much money making, other than betting on each other.

/I keed
//sort of
 
2012-06-12 06:27:35 PM

coco ebert: It seems like so many states are going off the deep end. Can someone just name the states that are progressive and will probably stay progressive for the near future?


Norway, and possibly Iceland.
 
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