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(USA Today)   North Dakota voters are about to completely eliminate their property taxes, which bring in about $800 million and pay for schools, fire fighters, and police. How will they make up the money? "Uh...the State will give it to us"   (usatoday.com) divider line 442
    More: Dumbass, North Dakota, property taxes, Tax Foundation, North Dakota voters  
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8478 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Jun 2012 at 1:23 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-12 03:24:39 PM

Virulency: traffic tickets? $500 a ticket sound reasonable?


In CA, we call that "getting off easy".
 
2012-06-12 03:27:30 PM
Exhibit A FTFA:"The oil boom makes it easier to get rid of the tax, but we started this before the oil boom took off," said Charlene Nelson, chairman of Empower The Taxpayer, which is leading the tax repeal effort. "Any state would benefit from this same thing."

Exhibit B FTFA: "The property tax is the foundation of local government services," said Connie Sprynczynatyk, executive director of the North Dakota League of Cities. "It's the predictable source of revenue to pay for police and fire and other local services in the community where you live."

Measure 2, as the proposal is called on the ballot, would require state government to make up for property tax revenue lost by local governments but doesn't specify how. Sprynczynatyk said this vagueness makes it uncertain if the measure can be implemented.


Now if they taxed the oil to offset the loss of property tax revenue this might actually make sense because it is a way to share the exploitation of the state's new oil wealth with more of the citizens of the state. Odds are that would be declared socialism though and instead it will be paid for with cuts in education, police, fire, and public health.
 
2012-06-12 03:27:32 PM
In related news; North Dakota has Cops, firefighters, and schools.

//would not have thought they had much past bars, corn fields and indian casinos.
 
2012-06-12 03:31:04 PM
Inevitably, the man who pays the piper calls the tune. If it's you paying for your schools and local government, then it's you and your neighbors who get to say what goes where. If it's the state government way out at the state capital, it's them and they'll tell you when / where / how you're allowed to spend their money. If it's the oil companies funding the most of the state/local government through taxes, they'll control the state/local government and direct its spending.

So why are so-called conservatives selling off local funding, local government, and local control - and completely altering the way local government's been run in ND for a century-plus - if not to concentrate power in the state capital and create a central point of control for the oil companies?
 
2012-06-12 03:31:40 PM

oldernell: What will they say when the 15% sales tax hits?


But it's the only FAIR Tax, never mind the regressive nature of a sales tax and how it affects the consumer with the least marginal income the hardest.

/Not a consumer worried about my marginal income.
//Hardly a consumer at all
///Except of RUM.
 
2012-06-12 03:31:49 PM

coco ebert: Wouldn't replacing revenue from property taxes with sales taxes essentially be a regressive move? Unless of course the sales taxes are for luxury items.


Sales tax, yes - income tax , no.

Changing education funding from local to state level encourages funding equity (which means better schools for low rent districts), which is why this type of thing never passes.
 
2012-06-12 03:32:06 PM
Hey! I just want to let you know you're wrong and your butt smells.

monoski: In related news; North Dakota has Cops, firefighters, and schools.

//would not have thought they had much past bars, corn soybean and sugar beet fields and indian casinos.


There, you may carry on.
 
2012-06-12 03:32:25 PM

monoski: In related news; North Dakota has Cops, firefighters, and schools.

//would not have thought they had much past bars, corn fields and indian casinos.


Someone's gotta provide security for the bars, put out the corn fields when they catch on fire, and teach people how to be blackjack dealers.
 
2012-06-12 03:32:49 PM
I can't go back to North Dakota, but then I'd rather chew my own arm off anyway.
 
2012-06-12 03:32:54 PM

GregInIndy: Inevitably, the man who pays the piper calls the tune. If it's you paying for your schools and local government, then it's you and your neighbors who get to say what goes where. If it's the state government way out at the state capital, it's them and they'll tell you when / where / how you're allowed to spend their money. If it's the oil companies funding the most of the state/local government through taxes, they'll control the state/local government and direct its spending.

So why are so-called conservatives selling off local funding, local government, and local control - and completely altering the way local government's been run in ND for a century-plus - if not to concentrate power in the state capital and create a central point of control for the oil companies?


Oil companies most definitely have the state government in their pockets.
 
2012-06-12 03:37:01 PM

wildcardjack: never


Good troll post. I mean, you can't be blind to the fact that some people don't own property so they can avoid paying for education for kids they don't have. Certainly you know that you'd be forcing all the renters to pay for the shortfall while the property owners get off scott free. Hell that's like paying rent twice.

I admire the the attempt but you could have done better.
 
2012-06-12 03:38:10 PM

Sarsin: FilmBELOH20: Meanwhile, my taxes have tripled on my home because the value has increased, but my income certainly hasn't changed at that level. So I could actually be at risk of losing my home because I'm forced to pay a tax that I have no control over, increases faster than my income, and has a higher burden shifted on to me while businesses line up for exemptions.

Speaking as a Californian: Move. Sell the house while it is still worth a crap-ton of money and get the hell out.


As soon as N.D. runs through the oil boom, anyone still living there . . . Forget it, I don't even want to think how depressing it will be.
 
2012-06-12 03:38:11 PM
Dear ND: When the Chamber of Commerce is against your tax decrease, you should probably reevaluate it.

Can we PLEEEEEEASE please please please pleeeeaaaaaassseeeee give these farkholes what they want and dynamite all the socialist roads, public buildings, water systems, electrical grids, etc. etc., abolish all public safety, and then... have fun! Enjoy Bootstrappia, the little third world country that could!
 
2012-06-12 03:40:27 PM
Sounds like as much thought went into this as went into cutting state spending in Rhode Island. Our Republican governor was on his way out, so he decided to hack and slash at state spending. All the teabaggers loved it, until they found out it caught towns flat-footed in their budgets, and forced them to reinstate the car tax that was being phased out over the past decade.

Oh, yeah. And cutting staff and closing a couple of the DMVs lead to 5 hour waits. Thanks, Governor Carcieri.
 
2012-06-12 03:40:54 PM

Wittenberg Dropout: I mean, you can't be blind to the fact that some people don't own property so they can avoid paying for education for kids they don't have.


...yeeeeah, except those people are stupid and that doesn't work because your rent still goes towards property taxes. it's not like your landlord pays them out of the goodness of their heart and doesn't factor it in to the monthly cost.
 
2012-06-12 03:41:17 PM

FrailChild: Starve the government beast! Absolutely. Force them to cut services & we will rely more on private efforts. The state is not your momma!

Those of you asking "where will the state get the money" are missing the point. Cut the damn services down. Can the people speak any louder to you on this issue?



[my.coffeepartyusa.com image 640x401]


Actually, the 2009 spending is the result of the budget of the previous administration. Just like government spending for 2017 will be the result of the Obama administration's last budget. You, and whoever made that graph, don't seem to understand the concept that the government sets the budget for the year to come, not for the year that's already passed. Read and learn:

Obama is the smallest government spender since Eidenhower
 
2012-06-12 03:41:24 PM

oldernell: What will they say when the 15% sales tax hits?


That's the case in Alabama. I used to live in Montgomery, AL where the sales tax was 10%, which applied to everything including groceries. Nothing spells freedom like having to pay tax on milk.
 
2012-06-12 03:44:12 PM

Raoul Eaton: Sarsin: FilmBELOH20: Meanwhile, my taxes have tripled on my home because the value has increased, but my income certainly hasn't changed at that level. So I could actually be at risk of losing my home because I'm forced to pay a tax that I have no control over, increases faster than my income, and has a higher burden shifted on to me while businesses line up for exemptions.

Speaking as a Californian: Move. Sell the house while it is still worth a crap-ton of money and get the hell out.

As soon as N.D. runs through the oil boom, anyone still living there . . . Forget it, I don't even want to think how depressing it will be.


Life was good before the oil, life will be good after. I doubt I'll retire here, but while my wife and I are young with good jobs and great schools for our kids, I really can't complain.
 
2012-06-12 03:46:32 PM

Charlie Freak: Raoul Eaton: Sarsin: FilmBELOH20: Meanwhile, my taxes have tripled on my home because the value has increased, but my income certainly hasn't changed at that level. So I could actually be at risk of losing my home because I'm forced to pay a tax that I have no control over, increases faster than my income, and has a higher burden shifted on to me while businesses line up for exemptions.

Speaking as a Californian: Move. Sell the house while it is still worth a crap-ton of money and get the hell out.

As soon as N.D. runs through the oil boom, anyone still living there . . . Forget it, I don't even want to think how depressing it will be.

Life was good before the oil, life will be good after. I doubt I'll retire here, but while my wife and I are young with good jobs and great schools for our kids, I really can't complain.


I was in Williston when the last boom went bust. Your optimism is interesting. If it's anything like last time stand by for some REAL misery.
 
2012-06-12 03:47:57 PM

FilmBELOH20: Let me preface my response by saying I voted against Measure 2, although I did it reluctantly. North Dakota has a habit of giving property tax breaks to businesses and special interest, as well as low or no interest loans and that kind of thing to get them to come to the state. I understand the need to occasionally do that, but the amount of revenue that is being exempted for businesses is over a billion dollars statewide - while the current property tax revenue is about $800 million. In addition, we're sitting on a surplus of about $3 Billion, and most of the roads in the western part of the state are crumbling under the weight of oil trucks. Also, crime has gone up, one of the 5 biggest cities in the state lost a quarter of its homes to a flood, and the state hasn't kicked in jack shiat to fix any of it.

Meanwhile, my taxes have tripled on my home because the value has increased, but my income certainly hasn't changed at that level. So I could actually be at risk of losing my home because I'm forced to pay a tax that I have no control over, increases faster than my income, and has a higher burden shifted on to me while businesses line up for exemptions.

I have no problem paying taxes, but they do need to change the system so homeowners aren't getting screwed while businesses laugh all the way to the bank.


this is what a reasonable criticism of a tax looks like. remember it republicans.
 
2012-06-12 03:48:06 PM

NotARocketScientist: This needs saying much louder

It's amazing to me how many people look at taxes and think that they see no benefit from them. It's fine to want to make sure your taxes are properly used and adjust them, add new ones or eliminate old ones as necessary- but far too many simply say "TAXES BAD HURR" and have zero, zilch, nada idea of what they're actually advocating.

Before they take away any tax they should have a week where everything that is funded by it is cut off, just so people know what life would be like if they got what they were asking for..

Besides, you can deduct it. The bigger your home the bigger your tax bill, but the larger a tax shelter your home becomes.

Our property tax is rolled in with our mortgage payment so it is fairly painless. It has also saved my bacon a couple times on the 1040.


Here's the GOP/Conservative response:

The only services the government should provide are the most basic: safety. And we can drive the price down on that cost by prohibiting police officers and firefighters from collectively bargaining, or, we can just hire a private company to provide these services because private companies are so efficient.

So you might say, what about education? Their response would be:

It's not the duty of the state to educate people. Thanks to the glories of the free market, everyone can find a school for their children that's in their price range.

You get the idea.
 
2012-06-12 03:48:16 PM

leftteffticle: Dear ND: When the Chamber of Commerce is against your tax decrease, you should probably reevaluate it.

Can we PLEEEEEEASE please please please pleeeeaaaaaassseeeee give these farkholes what they want and dynamite all the socialist roads, public buildings, water systems, electrical grids, etc. etc., abolish all public safety, and then... have fun! Enjoy Bootstrappia, the little third world country that could!


Like I said, North Dakotans better get used to having their pockets shaken if they want to drive a car, hunt, fish, trap, build, or get married in the state.
 
2012-06-12 03:48:41 PM

FrailChild: Cinaed: So when all the businesses leave because they can't get anyone local that's not an imbecile (education), or idiotically high insurance premiums due to limited emergency services (fire/police/etc), nor can get anyone to move 'to' the area (road/bridge/etc improvements) let alone families who have the prior expectations... what exactly is the plan, Stan?

Here's a thought that apparently never occurs to Democrats - instead of playing chicken little whenever anybody says the government is too big, why not consider cutting benefits and retirement packages and pensions of government workers?

Why not reduce government bureaucracy? Why not stop building lavish, wasteful public projects? Why not fire a diversity chairman or two? Welfare reduction and reform? Medicare/Medicaid reduction and reform? You're telling me beat cops & teachers & firemen are the only positions you could think to eliminate from a budget or is this just a BS scare tactic?


I don't know about ND specifically, but in most places about half of State & local employees are in the school system. Public safety makes up most of the rest. So there's no way to save any nontrivial amount of money on payroll without laying off or cutting pay/benefits for teachers, cops, and firefighters, no.

Yeah, some school superintendents and other "overhead" folks make lavish-sounding salaries. Then consider what the CEO of a similarly-sized private concern makes.

Medicare and Medicaid's problem is general medical inflation. If we can't get that under control then we're all screwed regardless of what happens with government budgets. (Incidentally, if we do get it under control, US government budgets are fine in the long term).

From my side, I get the feeling that "taxes are too high" and "government is too big" sentiments are 100% knee-jerk - there is literally no level at which these people would ever say "you know what, government's the right size now, and taxes are at the right level".

It would help if small-government conservatives had realistic downsizing plans. All the ones I've seen so far are full of hand-waving (like this one, "we'll make up the revenue from somewhere, I guess"), and/or target unrealistically low service levels (cancel Medicare).
 
2012-06-12 03:48:43 PM

leftteffticle: Wittenberg Dropout: I mean, you can't be blind to the fact that some people don't own property so they can avoid paying for education for kids they don't have.

...yeeeeah, except those people are stupid and that doesn't work because your rent still goes towards property taxes. it's not like your landlord pays them out of the goodness of their heart and doesn't factor it in to the monthly cost.


Rent in my area has gone down over the past 4 years. Property taxes have stayed the same. My landlord must be having a bake sale to cover the gap in revenue and just hasn't invited me to it.
 
2012-06-12 03:49:03 PM

leftteffticle: Wittenberg Dropout: I mean, you can't be blind to the fact that some people don't own property so they can avoid paying for education for kids they don't have.


Lots of homeschoolers out in the sticks. Now that I think about it, one of the major tea party activists in town homeschooled her kids.

I've gotten into debates with quite a few folks from that camp and their arguments are very naive - always assuming that people and businesses will always do the right thing and really having no idea the impact technology has on our society (both in terms of the speed and complexity of a modern economy and the proliferation of political lies via money and corrupted media).
 
2012-06-12 03:51:07 PM

rohar: Charlie Freak: Raoul Eaton: Sarsin: FilmBELOH20: Meanwhile, my taxes have tripled on my home because the value has increased, but my income certainly hasn't changed at that level. So I could actually be at risk of losing my home because I'm forced to pay a tax that I have no control over, increases faster than my income, and has a higher burden shifted on to me while businesses line up for exemptions.

Speaking as a Californian: Move. Sell the house while it is still worth a crap-ton of money and get the hell out.

As soon as N.D. runs through the oil boom, anyone still living there . . . Forget it, I don't even want to think how depressing it will be.

Life was good before the oil, life will be good after. I doubt I'll retire here, but while my wife and I are young with good jobs and great schools for our kids, I really can't complain.

I was in Williston when the last boom went bust. Your optimism is interesting. If it's anything like last time stand by for some REAL misery.


I'm not anywhere near Williston - the boom out there has very little direct impact on my local economy.
 
2012-06-12 03:51:26 PM
I thought... Surely no supposed liberals will come into a thread and biatch about the state sharing income from the oil boom with all the citizens of the state instead of just moving that money into the private hands of the few, the way we do elsewhere in the nation...


Way to fight for: "Hey, there's oil on public land! Let's give all the profit to Shell and BP!"
 
2012-06-12 03:53:52 PM

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Not to thread jack, but having a state wide property assessment system (rather than leaving it up to the locals) is probably a better, fairer way to go.


Yeah, and the big-city political bosses would totally not pander to their constituencies by insisting that those hayseeds upstate are greedy sonsabiatches for living on a whole entire half-acre.
 
2012-06-12 03:54:51 PM

jopy666: I have a sibling in the us army who is a tea partier. He thinks all taxes should be abolished and that we should increase military spending...



Lemme guess -- he either went through a few years of serious drug/alcohol abuse, or he's had a serious head injury or two, right?
 
2012-06-12 03:56:30 PM

BullBearMS: I thought... Surely no supposed liberals will come into a thread and biatch about the state sharing income from the oil boom with all the citizens of the state instead of just moving that money into the private hands of the few, the way we do elsewhere in the nation...


Way to fight for: "Hey, there's oil on public land! Let's give all the profit to Shell and BP!"


ND wants to set up a savings account for the oil money that has to be spent in controlled ways, not pilfered for pet projects. They also got their surplus due to oil, sales tax receipts and federal aid. So there's some corporatism going on, but the state is flush with cash right now to actually put it back into infrastructure. Which I'm sure they'll do. Just as soon as the federal loan is approved. Because taxes bad. But federal gubmint $ is awesome!
 
2012-06-12 03:57:16 PM

Wittenberg Dropout: wildcardjack: never

Good troll post. I mean, you can't be blind to the fact that some people don't own property so they can avoid paying for education for kids they don't have. Certainly you know that you'd be forcing all the renters to pay for the shortfall while the property owners get off scott free. Hell that's like paying rent twice.

I admire the the attempt but you could have done better.


For farks sake, my argument is that a high sales tax hurts the lower income people more than the higher income people who are more likely to be property owners. You are a farking moron who can't finish a farking sentence before having to comment about it.

GO TAKE AN ECONOMICS COURSE.
 
2012-06-12 03:58:28 PM

Charlie Freak: Raoul Eaton: Sarsin: FilmBELOH20: Meanwhile, my taxes have tripled on my home because the value has increased, but my income certainly hasn't changed at that level. So I could actually be at risk of losing my home because I'm forced to pay a tax that I have no control over, increases faster than my income, and has a higher burden shifted on to me while businesses line up for exemptions.

Speaking as a Californian: Move. Sell the house while it is still worth a crap-ton of money and get the hell out.

As soon as N.D. runs through the oil boom, anyone still living there . . . Forget it, I don't even want to think how depressing it will be.

Life was good before the oil, life will be good after. I doubt I'll retire here, but while my wife and I are young with good jobs and great schools for our kids, I really can't complain.


I think the difference will be a lot of people who came for the oil jobs and find themselves unemployed when the oil leaves town, and a populace accustomed to a higher level of public spending that will be unsustainable without the oil money. If there's no property tax, I can't see how basic public services will stay afloat. Take a look over at Michigan--what happened to a formerly healthy state that lost its industrial base. There they still DO have property taxes, and you see municipalities foundering.
 
2012-06-12 03:58:56 PM

Trolljegeren: If the State levies property tax, the State it the actual, final, owner of all property - not you; you are merely renting the property from the actual owner: the State. They just choose to call the rent you are paying 'property tax' rather than rent, because this bolsters the illusion of private ownership.

North Dakota may become one of the few places in the US that actually allows private ovnership of property.


Out of curiosity, why submit articles from a troll account? While I agree that "keeping score" is meaningless, why not give "credit" to your main/real account?
 
2012-06-12 03:59:44 PM

Serious Black: BSABSVR: Serious Black: BSABSVR: Serious Black: Yeah, I heard that as well. Of course, the article you linked also says that states like North Carolina, Texas, and Pennsylvania are trying to abolish it too. What is it with some Republicans and endlessly trying to pass laws that the population says they don't want?

Motivating the base. You get the crazies to show up/make donations. In Colorado we have had two straight elections where fetal personhood has been put on the ballot. Each time it has been trashed 3-1.

Guess what we will be voting on in 2012?

To be fair, you guys are also voting on legalizing marijuana in the state in November.

This is true, but it's only at 51% approval right now. Ballot issues that aren't at 60% approval in June typically fail.

It's fun watching all the local DA's freak out like it's the 30's and your daughters will start farking the jazzmen though.

It's only at 51%? Seriously? How the hell is that possible when both parties endorsed the measure? I mean, I heard that there's a ton of money coming from some organization in Florida to oppose it, but how the hell is that possible?



I have no freaking clue, honestly. I know that after dispensaries opened up, the media here was in constant freak out mode (dispensaries near high schools! 20 something's may be lying about back pain! Crips from LA!).

Then about a year or so ago they stopped, apparently after seein that Colorado did not turn into a war zone/bongo festival. There still may be some residual fear left from that, though.

I think CO will legalize pot before 2020, I just don't know if this is the election yet. Both parties did endorse the measure, but not very passionately, and all the police/fire/prosecutor organizations will be against it.
 
rka
2012-06-12 04:01:15 PM
You get crazy elections in a state with the Initiative and Referendum process like North Dakota has.

Basically anybody with more time than sense can stand outside your supermarket can get signatures for just about any wild-hair-up-their-ass idea and if they get enough, it goes to a vote by the entire state.

I think 3 of the 4 measures on the ballot today in ND are initiative measures, meaning someone got a wild hair up their ass.

Measure 2 - No property tax. Initiative
Measure 3 - Keep your hands off my religion you dirty liberals. Initiative
Measure 4 - UND nickname. Initiative

The problem with these activists is they think they and their insular circle of friends in North Dakota are the center of the world. So they get 17,000 signatures and raise a few thousands of dollars and they think they are playing big boy politics.

Then the outside interests come in to whack them down with millions of dollars to fund opposition campaigns. Measure 3 is getting absolutely crushed as Planned Parenthood alone drops almost three quarters of a million.

Sorry, 40 Below does *NOT* keep anyone out when you go full retard.
 
2012-06-12 04:01:17 PM

Serious Black: Gulper Eel: Not in the useless USA Today article dumped on us by subby: polls show big opposition to ending the property tax. We now return you to the smug denunciation of flyover country already in progress.

Yeah, I heard that as well. Of course, the article you linked also says that states like North Carolina, Texas, and Pennsylvania are trying to abolish it too. What is it with some Republicans and endlessly trying to pass laws that the population says they don't want?


They seem like the kinda guys who in college would ask a girl out over and over and over until she got so annoyed she would say yes.........and then they'd date rape her.
 
2012-06-12 04:01:26 PM

FilmBELOH20: I have no problem paying taxes, but they do need to change the system so homeowners aren't getting screwed while businesses laugh all the way to the bank.


You won't get that by swapping out a property tax for a business tax, which is a pass-along on multiple levels and simply hands more power to legislators to trade tax breaks for votes while making the true cost of government more opaque.
 
2012-06-12 04:02:37 PM

Satanic_Hamster: Trolljegeren: If the State levies property tax, the State it the actual, final, owner of all property - not you; you are merely renting the property from the actual owner: the State. They just choose to call the rent you are paying 'property tax' rather than rent, because this bolsters the illusion of private ownership.

North Dakota may become one of the few places in the US that actually allows private ovnership of property.

Out of curiosity, why submit articles from a troll account? While I agree that "keeping score" is meaningless, why not give "credit" to your main/real account?


All that was code for, "Taxation is theft and real money comes from gold and silver not by fiat. Oh and there are mind control chemicals in our water."
 
2012-06-12 04:03:40 PM

jjorsett: FlashHarry: serial_crusher: I wish Texas would do that. Not paying any taxes at all would be awesome.

there's alway somalia. it's a conservative paradise. religion, guns, and no taxes - hell, no government! plus, women know who's boss!

Once again the argument, "If you want smaller and less intrusive government, you must favor ANARCHY!", so I'll make the argument,"If you want more government and regulation you must want COMMUNISM!" Exemplified by the liberal paradise of North Korea: no religion, no guns, everything controlled by the State. Hell, nothing BUT government.

That was fun.


Don't worry, Texas will start taxing Amazon.com purchases starting July 1st.
 
2012-06-12 04:04:52 PM

OhioUGrad: Serious Black: Gulper Eel: Not in the useless USA Today article dumped on us by subby: polls show big opposition to ending the property tax. We now return you to the smug denunciation of flyover country already in progress.

Yeah, I heard that as well. Of course, the article you linked also says that states like North Carolina, Texas, and Pennsylvania are trying to abolish it too. What is it with some Republicans and endlessly trying to pass laws that the population says they don't want?

They seem like the kinda guys who in college would ask a girl out over and over and over until she got so annoyed she would say yes.........and then they'd date rape her.


Hey sometimes you gotta take the pussy. Learned that from Pepe Le Pew
 
rka
2012-06-12 04:04:54 PM

Raoul Eaton: Sarsin: FilmBELOH20: Meanwhile, my taxes have tripled on my home because the value has increased, but my income certainly hasn't changed at that level. So I could actually be at risk of losing my home because I'm forced to pay a tax that I have no control over, increases faster than my income, and has a higher burden shifted on to me while businesses line up for exemptions.

Speaking as a Californian: Move. Sell the house while it is still worth a crap-ton of money and get the hell out.

As soon as N.D. runs through the oil boom, anyone still living there . . . Forget it, I don't even want to think how depressing it will be.


Western ND went through an oil boom in the 80s. They know how its going to end eventually. The question is 5 years? 10? 30? Do you not do anything now because in 20 years its going to change?

A state with 800 years of coal reserves really isn't going anywhere though.
 
2012-06-12 04:04:57 PM

Kazan: this is what a reasonable criticism of a tax looks like. remember it republicans.


That's crazy. Not one clever or subtle comment about gun ownership was involved!

(Of course, that holds true for the Teabagger rallies as well...)
 
2012-06-12 04:05:46 PM

wildcardjack: Wittenberg Dropout: wildcardjack: never

Good troll post. I mean, you can't be blind to the fact that some people don't own property so they can avoid paying for education for kids they don't have. Certainly you know that you'd be forcing all the renters to pay for the shortfall while the property owners get off scott free. Hell that's like paying rent twice.

I admire the the attempt but you could have done better.

For farks sake, my argument is that a high sales tax hurts the lower income people more than the higher income people who are more likely to be property owners. You are a farking moron who can't finish a farking sentence before having to comment about it.

GO TAKE AN ECONOMICS COURSE.


Also, the line about renters not paying property tax is hilarious.
 
2012-06-12 04:05:47 PM

FrailChild: Citrate1007: By no means is the need for government spending have any relationship to increased social inequalities.

"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. From time to time we've been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self-rule, that government by an elite group is superior to government for, by, and of the people. Well, if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? All of us together, in and out of government, must bear the burden."

"There are those in America today who have come to depend absolutely on government for their security. And when government fails they seek to rectify that failure in the form of granting government more power. So, as government has failed to control crime and violence with the means given it by the Constitution, they seek to give it more power at the expense of the Constitution."
- Ronald Reagan

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan


Great quote from the man that began the politics of greed. His presidency marks the time when the exponential growth of the elite began while middle and lower class incomes stagnated. I agree that Ideally we could remove the taxes and businesses would pay their workers more; however, this is not how businesses operate. It is very easy to take a conservative stance when you aren't working over 40 hours to support a child and still need to go to a food shelf in order to have enough food after you've paid for your rent, auto insurance, etc.

The true solution I believe is to look at the improvements to welfare made in the 90's that implemented the employment service requirements to recieving cash assistance. Advocates have chipped away at most of the teeth of these programs that required people to look for work while on welfare and they have grown too lienent. Re-reform the programs to make it harder for the slackers to stay on AND improve the training aspects that teach employable skills to unskilled workers that are on the programs.

Also, Reagan is a RINO by todays standards.
 
2012-06-12 04:09:36 PM

Wittenberg Dropout: leftteffticle: Wittenberg Dropout: I mean, you can't be blind to the fact that some people don't own property so they can avoid paying for education for kids they don't have.

...yeeeeah, except those people are stupid and that doesn't work because your rent still goes towards property taxes. it's not like your landlord pays them out of the goodness of their heart and doesn't factor it in to the monthly cost.

Rent in my area has gone down over the past 4 years. Property taxes have stayed the same. My landlord must be having a bake sale to cover the gap in revenue and just hasn't invited me to it.


....if you really don't think that any of your rent money goes to property tax payments, you crazy.
 
2012-06-12 04:10:47 PM
Nice. Go right ahead and shoot yourselves in the foot, North Dakota. Now both Dakotas have officially gone Freeper nutcase grade.
 
2012-06-12 04:11:45 PM
We did quite well for about the first 150-175 years when this nation had zero property taxes...I am sure North Dakota will do fine...its swimming in all (unless the EnvironmentalFascists start whining)

The difference can be made up in sales tax..which is actually the best way to raise revenue...and it raises revenue from all equal in proportion to what they earn and spend..

Sales taxes and tariffs are much better ways to raise revenue than property and income taxes
 
2012-06-12 04:12:39 PM

qorkfiend: Also, the line about renters not paying property tax is hilarious.


shhhhhhhhh, just let him think he's beating the man.

/you can come giggle in the corner with me
 
2012-06-12 04:13:10 PM

Citrate1007: FrailChild: Citrate1007: By no means is the need for government spending have any relationship to increased social inequalities.

"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. From time to time we've been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self-rule, that government by an elite group is superior to government for, by, and of the people. Well, if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else? All of us together, in and out of government, must bear the burden."

"There are those in America today who have come to depend absolutely on government for their security. And when government fails they seek to rectify that failure in the form of granting government more power. So, as government has failed to control crime and violence with the means given it by the Constitution, they seek to give it more power at the expense of the Constitution."
- Ronald Reagan

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan

Great quote from the man that began the politics of greed. His presidency marks the time when the exponential growth of the elite began while middle and lower class incomes stagnated. I agree that Ideally we could remove the taxes and businesses would pay their workers more; however, this is not how businesses operate. It is very easy to take a conservative stance when you aren't working over 40 hours to support a child and still need to go to a food shelf in order to have enough food after you've paid for your rent, auto insurance, etc.

The true solution I believe is to look at the improvements to welfare made in the 90's that implemented the employment service requirements to recieving cash assistance. Advocates have chipped away at most of the teeth of these programs that required people to look for work while on welfare and they have grown too lienent. Re-reform the programs to make it harder for the slackers to stay ...


Businesses that pay their workers more pay less taxes on profits... because profits are smaller since their "cost of doing business" is higher.
 
2012-06-12 04:14:23 PM

DancingElkCondor: We did quite well for about the first 150-175 years when this nation had zero property taxes...I am sure North Dakota will do fine...its swimming in all (unless the EnvironmentalFascists start whining)

The difference can be made up in sales tax..which is actually the best way to raise revenue...and it raises revenue from all equal in proportion to what they earn and spend..

Sales taxes and tariffs are much better ways to raise revenue than property and income taxes


They're better at raping poor and middle-class people while letting the stinking rich pay jack squat and laugh as their vassals slowly strangle to death. I will give you that.
 
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