Oop, the 5 year one isn't on its own URL. Gotta click the button to the right.

relcec: WhyteRaven74: relcec: the american business owner and the guy from Guatemala aren't really to blame. they are just acting according to the dictates of supply and demand in a supersaturated labor force create by you.

The labor force is hardly supersaturated.


of course it is. that's why wages are dropping and have been for 40 years you farking dipshiat.
[www.socialsecurity.gov image 640x304]


btw I hate talking to you. you are literally uninformed about every subject under the sun yet continually respond to me with nonsense, never once backing any of your bullshiat ideas with a citation. you fancy yourself as some kind of renaissance man with received knowledge of a whole range of subjects you never studied even for a few minutes. dealing with your idiocy is such a god damn time suck.



NOW, there are millions upon millions of people who want to work who can't find work and we are still adding 1.75 million foreign workers who are willing to work for less wages than Americans. Link

that's the reason why the unemployment rate is always lower for immigrants than it is for Americans! business can and does choose immigrants because they are cheaper, and because the labor market is so overflowing that the choice of workers is even an option. of course the labor market is supersaturated. the only time it wasn;t during the last 40 years was during the .com boom.

Immigrants' unemployment rate lower than U.S.-born workers'
By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
April 6, 2006: 5:30 PM EDT

Immigrants' unemployment rate lower than that of native born
May 1, 2008 - NEW YORK

Immigrant Unemployment Lower Than Natives'
By Lauren Raheja
Tuesday, Aug 3, 2010

The giant flaw in your argument is you think ALL immigrants = uneducated Mexican laborer. Simple answer is immigrants (GC, H1s etc) are generally more educated and qualified than native born. This is a GOOD thing.
You want to import high quality workers. We need to balance out the immigrant population with PhD's and MIT graduates to counter the millions of the illegal cherry pickers/ lanscapers!

This text is now purple: Ebbelwoi: FWIW I support universal healthcare in the US if and only if we can get a level of performance similar to Northen European countries.

That will never happen. Americans don't exist in a Northern European society.

Most Americans do not pay income taxes anymore either. In European countries, the tax structure is actually less progressive because most people help pay. In the US, more than 50% of tax filers now pay no net federal income taxes. They all get to vote. They all vote for Obama, to get more free stuff paid for by a shrinking class of people. This will end badly as fewer people as a percentage pay each year. Eventually, when you have 25-30% of people footing the bill and reproducing much more slowly, there will be a real war. Lazy people will lose. You got crappy guns, no discipline, can't shoot worth a crap and will kill each other before you actually do anything productive.

Class warfare is great for Democratic politicians, no doubt. People in America now, like almost all of Fark, are so stupid they actually believe punishing success if the way to go. So they vote for Obama and the promise of retribution to all who work hard. Well, guess who won't give you a job now (if you even try for one, lazy bastards)? That "evil" business owner who used to make $200k a year.

You want to punish a guy who starts a business and actually achieves the American dream, like that is a crime. You are bad.

Fark it. We have been divided and conquered to the point where everyone in the national discourse is either shiat-your-pants stupid or some kind of commie hippie traitor. Anybody with half a conscience and one quarter of a brain ought to just turn out the lights and head for the great white north.

WhyteRaven74: Ebbelwoi: I don't see anything in the article that supports what he wrote in the headline.

Subby used income instead of worth, big whoop. The the 40 percent figure is accurate.

lol. Holy fark you are retarded! There is a big farking difference between "worth" and "income". I don't know why people listen to anything your dumb ass says. Jesus Christ.

Thunderpipes: This text is now purple: Ebbelwoi: FWIW I support universal healthcare in the US if and only if we can get a level of performance similar to Northen European countries.

That will never happen. Americans don't exist in a Northern European society.

Most Americans do not pay income taxes anymore either. In European countries, the tax structure is actually less progressive because most people help pay. In the US, more than 50% of tax filers now pay no net federal income taxes. They all get to vote. They all vote for Obama, to get more free stuff paid for by a shrinking class of people. This will end badly as fewer people as a percentage pay each year. Eventually, when you have 25-30% of people footing the bill and reproducing much more slowly, there will be a real war. Lazy people will lose. You got crappy guns, no discipline, can't shoot worth a crap and will kill each other before you actually do anything productive.

Class warfare is great for Democratic politicians, no doubt. People in America now, like almost all of Fark, are so stupid they actually believe punishing success if the way to go. So they vote for Obama and the promise of retribution to all who work hard. Well, guess who won't give you a job now (if you even try for one, lazy bastards)? That "evil" business owner who used to make $200k a year.

You want to punish a guy who starts a business and actually achieves the American dream, like that is a crime. You are bad.

Sure, poor people are responsible for declining wages and increasing prices.

Poor people, if indeed they are taking control of the government, are only doing what the rich have done for ages. Using government to keep the masses down while profiting handsomely with tax breaks and sweetheart deals. Sorry if the poor people finally woke up and learned a few tricks from the people who kept them poor all these ages.

If you want to know why I'm voting for Obama again, it's because Romney has said he will go to war with Iran. This election is a question of voting for war or voting for peace.

Sigh, guess I'm just the first one to get it....

Wangiss: Double the taxes! Triple the taxes! Squeeze every drop out of those insolent, musical peasants.

You people and your statistics; it ain't what you prove to be true - it's what I believe the truth to be!



------- I.B. Redparty, 2012

Thunderpipes:
Most Americans do not pay income taxes anymore either. In European countries, the tax structure is actually less progressive because most people help pay. In the US, more than 50% of tax filers now pay no net federal income taxes. They all get to vote. They all vote for Obama, to get more free stuff paid for by a shrinking class of people.

Cry me a river for the shrinking class of people whose incomes have soared as they vacuumed all the wealth away from the poor and middle class. Are we supposed to feel sorry for them because they can still afford to pay income tax?

GAT_00: Wangiss: Double the taxes! Triple the taxes! Squeeze every drop out of those insolent, musical peasants.

Don't forget, more tax cuts on the rich will fix everything! Never mind how, they totally will!

And three Republicans just jizzed in their pants from reading your post.

Coelacanth: Notabunny: Are you saying we should wear tights, or live communally with men? Because I have skinny legs and can't sleep if someone's snoring.

We've found our Maid Marian.

Can I just pretend I'm a guy if I have a gun with real bullets? Arrows only go so far.

Yeah, well, Americans are still richer than 99.999999999999999999% of the world. So, they just need to suck it up and learn to live with corruption and injustice until it is too late to do anything about it.

The First Four Black Sabbath Albums: Yeah, well, Americans are still richer than 99.999999999999999999% of the world. So, they just need to suck it up and learn to live with corruption and injustice until it is too late to do anything about it.

^^^The sum of all right-wing arguments^^^

Efficiency and progress is ours once more
Now that we have the Neutron bomb
It's nice and quick and clean and gets things done
Away with excess enemy
But no less value to property
No sense in war but perfect sense at home:

The sun beams down on a brand new day
No more welfare tax to pay
Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light
Jobless millions whisked away
At last we have more room to play
All systems go to kill the poor tonight

Gonna
Kill kill kill kill Kill the poor:Tonight

Behold the sparkle of champagne
The crime rate's gone
Feel free again
O' life's a dream with you, Miss Lily White
Jane Fonda on the screen today
Convinced the liberals it's okay
So let's get dressed and dance away the night

While they:
Kill kill kill kill Kill the poor:Tonight

superdude72: Thunderpipes:
Most Americans do not pay income taxes anymore either. In European countries, the tax structure is actually less progressive because most people help pay. In the US, more than 50% of tax filers now pay no net federal income taxes. They all get to vote. They all vote for Obama, to get more free stuff paid for by a shrinking class of people.

Cry me a river for the shrinking class of people whose incomes have soared as they vacuumed all the wealth away from the poor and middle class. Are we supposed to feel sorry for them because they can still afford to pay income tax?

You will when they continue to not hire people, and the country gets worse off financially because of it. And, dumbass, do you really want to sit here and tell me a person can only make money if they harm others? You are saying there is a finite amount of wealth in this country?

Stupid ass liberals, always good for a laugh. You people would not be so pathetic if you stopped the retarded crap about anyone who succeeds does so by murdering babies and crap. Get real.

I assume you hate Obama with a passion, right? He is very wealthy. He used 500 million dollars to get his last job. You hate Apple, right? Sitting on 100 billion in cash, heavily outsources, etc... Oh wait, they make your iTampon.

Half a BILLION dollars. He uses millions more each month to fly around the country trying to keep his job.

Thunderpipes: superdude72: Thunderpipes:
Most Americans do not pay income taxes anymore either. In European countries, the tax structure is actually less progressive because most people help pay. In the US, more than 50% of tax filers now pay no net federal income taxes. They all get to vote. They all vote for Obama, to get more free stuff paid for by a shrinking class of people.

Cry me a river for the shrinking class of people whose incomes have soared as they vacuumed all the wealth away from the poor and middle class. Are we supposed to feel sorry for them because they can still afford to pay income tax?

You will when they continue to not hire people, and the country gets worse off financially because of it.

Yeah, let's see how that works. I can picture the Walmart heirs: "If I have to keep paying Unemployment Insurance I'll, I'll... stop allowing you to generate wealth for me! I'll destroy the roots of my $80 billion fortune if that's what it takes to keep you shiftless lowlifes from mooching off me with your demands for "Medicaid" and "food stamps"!

hitlersbrain: Dear gullible smuck we know can't afford a top notch lawyer for very long..

Philip Francis Queeg: What is your annual deductible? What percentage of the median income is that deductible? What happens if you are unable to meet your annual deductible?

You two really are dumber than a box of rocks - even both of you added together. Let me explain this from the beginning.

I qualified for a Health Savings Account insurance policy when they first came out which was some time back in the 90s. The way it works is this: You sign up with a company that offers the plan. They tell you the rate of premium for your circumstance and the deductible. A small amount (very small) of each premium payment goes into your Health Savings Account, the balance goes to the insurance company. Your savings account can be in any bank you choose but it is an account only for medical expenses. You get a checkbook, etc. The more you save, the more interest you can get from the insurance company, should there be dividends paid. That's not been a big factor over the years.

Every month, you pay your premium. If you have any medical expenses, you pay them out of the savings account. That allows the insurance company to track your medical expenses so that they count against your deductible. When the deductible is met, the insurance company kicks in and pays for any necessary health care. Until the deductible is met, nothing is paid for. If you don't meet your deductible, any balance in your account carries over. You may make extra deposits into your account whenever you wish, however, that account may only be used for medical expenses.

Let's put some numbers to this. It has varied over the years but right now, my premium for the wife and myself is just under $300/month and our deductible is $7500/year. That means that if I don't see a doctor for any reason over the course of a year and make no contributions to the account, I pay $300 x 12 or $3600/year. If I max out my deductible, I pay $11,100 for the year, and no more. Compare that to a full insurance plan. For a full coverage plan, my premium would be just over $1000/month. Along with that I would have small co-pays, some items would only be covered at a percentage, etc. So my health care would cost at least $12,000/year; more if I had serious illnesses. There is no top end.

That is why they are such a great idea, at least as far as the consumer is concerned. I will never pay more (or even as much as) a full coverage insurance policy. And, if I am blessed with good health, I can save a bunch and put it away. I try to keep a minimum of 3 years' deductible in the account so that if I run into some serious bad luck for a couple of years, I'm still covered. Since both my wife and I are self-employed, we qualify for this kind of plan. If we can't make the premium payment (bearing in mind we have no employer shelling out anything for us, we are not eligible for unemployment benefits, and COBRA does not apply) it would be withdrawn from the account. If we didn't have anything in the account, we would have to borrow money to cover the deductible.

As I mentioned you have to be self-employed to qualify for this. I believe it should be opened up to more people. Insurance companies don't really like it but there is demand. Everyone I know who is self-employed has one. Insurance companies can make a profit with them or they wouldn't offer them. OTOH, because I am managing a substantial part of my health care dollar, they have less of it to play with. Even if they make the same margin, their dollar amount of profit is less.

Were this to become more universal, the smart folks would get these when they are young. They would sock away as much as they could and manage their health as best they can while they are young and, statistically, have far fewer health care expenses. It would cost employers no more than the kind of plans they normally pay for. Some folks, with chronic illnesses would end up paying about the same as they do now for a full-coverage policy, and they would do so every year. I know of a couple families that have a chronic illness in the family with these plans and they do meet their deductible every year. But they pay less, overall, for their health care than they did with the full-coverage as explained above. Most of us, if blessed with good health, end up saving a bundle over the years.

That, of course, is the problem with the plan. Insurance companies don't get to play with as much of our money and the government isn't involved at all, other than originally designing the concept and putting it into law. Insurance folks don't get your money and government can't control it. Obviously evil.

Of course, some folks will not be able to afford a plan like this. Which is different from today's situation, even with implementation of the Affordable Health Care Act how? There are always going to be those who need help. Our mission, however, should not be to provide for them in perpetuity but to help them develop marketable skills and sell them so that they can be self-sufficient. And, in the meantime, the less we leave at the insurance company, the more we have available to help others. That is real compassion.

Philip Francis Queeg: Mr. Right: hitlersbrain: Let me sum up...

Philip Francis Queeg: So if you and your family encounter major health problems and you wipe out all that wealth you have accumulated in your HSA, shall we leave you at the curb to die without remorse if you are no longer able to pay for the care you need.

You guys really don't have any reading comprehension, do you? If I have a major health problem, the insurance kicks in and pays for everything. I have run over my deductible twice. After that, everything was paid, including prescriptions. No co pays, no further deductible, no percentage. It's insurance against the kind of catastrophe you keep wishing on me.

If you can't understand the concepts, just sit in the corner and be quiet. You might learn something. Then again, one cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

What is your annual deductible? What percentage of the median income is that deductible? What happens if you are unable to meet your annual deductible?

You're on your parents health insurance still, aren't you?

C'mom.... admit it.

CNN and Fox News should start drafting their pundits from FARK...it seems like everyone here is an expert on economics, the healthcare system and political history!!!

/or completely full of derp

The Southern Dandy: Part of me wants Democrats to get out of the Republican's way and just let them drive the economy over the cliff, so Americans will finally come to their senses, but then I remember how farking stupid the American public is and how they'd listen to the Republicans as they blame the Dems for the disaster.

I'm in the same camp but then you realize you don't get to exist in a bubble and would have to live through that awfulness so that means I'm back to forwarding snopes links to all the stupid chain emails my mom sends out and trying to convince my republican step-dad who works for the EPA to stop voting against his own self-interests.

/sigh

suckers. all of ya

/me too

Mr. Right: As I mentioned you have to be self-employed to qualify for this. I believe it should be opened up to more people.

You're thinking of the old Archer MSAs, they were kind of a dry run. Anyone can open an HSA, you can purchase an indvidual policy or many employers now offer them. All you need is a qualifying HDHP with a minimum deductible of 1200 for single or 2400 for family.

They kind of lost steam the past few years though. Alot of poeple didn't understand them, or wouldn't bother taking out an HSA. Then they would wind up in the hospital with a huge bill they couldn't pay. The average hospital has millions in unpaid debts from people that are on high deductible health plan. Then you might have heard that "consumer driven" buzzword get thrown about, but that never really happened. When people are sick they go to the doctor, they don't price shop, and the average doctor probably wouldn't help you with that anyways.

They ARE a really good idea though. I try to encourage everyone I know to get one, rather than buyup to the copay plan. Alot of employers will front load your HSA to encourage you to open one, but people like the safety of a copay plan. The math usually almost always works out to take an HSA, as you'll pay more in premiums than you do for the cost of health care. But everyone wants that simple $20 copay when they are at the doctor, regardless of how much is coming out of their check on the backend. Then when they can voluntarily put money into their HSA they think they are "taking money out of their paycheck".

The average person is pretty dumb, we all know that. But atleast 80% of the population cannot figure out health insurance whatsoever. It's really amazing. I'll do the math out for them how much they'll save by taking an HSA instead of a copay plan, but they still fright at the thought of a $200 the one or two times they go to the doctor a year they waste thousands on an over priced health insurance plan. They're not all low income folks either, people who are engineers and lawyers and stuff have so much trouble figuring out how to save their receipts at the doctor and submit them for reimbursement. As well, they keeps the babyboomers happy.

Mr. Right: Let's put some numbers to this. It has varied over the years but right now, my premium for the wife and myself is just under $300/month and our deductible is $7500/year. That means that if I don't see a doctor for any reason over the course of a year and make no contributions to the account, I pay $300 x 12 or $3600/year.

So, your total medical outlay in a year that you actually meet your deductible is $11,100.00.

Median household income is $51,914.00

For a family with your plan who makes the median income that medical outlay would be 20.2% of their GROSS income.

That is truly a shiatty plan. For the majority of Americans it is a recipe for bankruptcy.

ChuDogg: You're on your parents health insurance still, aren't you?

C'mom.... admit it.

Nope. I actually had a HSA for a couple of years. Thankfully I woke up to what a terrible plan it is. You have a great deal of exposure, and if you don't have liquid assets enough to cover the high deductible at all times you can be in real trouble.

Mr. Right: hitlersbrain: Dear gullible smuck we know can't afford a top notch lawyer for very long..

Philip Francis Queeg: What is your annual deductible? What percentage of the median income is that deductible? What happens if you are unable to meet your annual deductible?

You two really are dumber than a box of rocks - even both of you added together. Let me explain this from the beginning...

Wall of text aside, when you start costing an insurance company money, they will find a way to dump you. That's how free enterprise works. They are HUGE. Their CEOs make what you make in a year per HOUR. There is nothing you can do to them if they decide to just dump you.

If you get really sick you will lose everything and die penniless.

I'm glad you're happy with your plan but it is a sad comparison to the universal health care enjoyed in most first wold countries.

Deathfrogg: To hell with the US. It's a capitalist wet dream. A mostly politically illiterate population, coupled with a dream combination of capitalist bootlickers and millionaires sycophants and the politicians that nobody wants to put in jail because they all claim to be "christians". So when they die with the national treasuries billions in their Cayman island and Monaco bank accounts, they'll be forgiven.

It's funny, the "trickle down" fanatics are all going on about how thats the only way an economy can work and they scream "liberal!" every time you ask them when it's going to start working that way. When you start asking them why workers wages are being reduced, they call you a communist.

So very, very, very much this. It's broken. Just....broken. Even if reason and rationale get another shot (with Obama) it's become that old terrorist mandate -- Reason and Rationale must be eternally vigilant, whereas Crazy and Christian only need to upset the apple cart once or twice to get it into a state of "can't be fixed"

They're almost there.

Philip Francis Queeg: That is truly a shiatty plan. For the majority of Americans it is a recipe for bankruptcy.

To be fair, even though he's clearly wrong, that's not much different from a regular plan unless your company is footing most of the bill. For people who are offered group health insurance but still have to pay their own premium, it's usually just as out of reach.

ChuDogg: I'll do the math out for them how much they'll save by taking an HSA instead of a copay plan, but they still fright at the thought of a $200 the one or two times they go to the doctor a year they waste thousands on an over priced health insurance plan. They're not all low income folks either, people who are engineers and lawyers and stuff have so much trouble figuring out how to save their receipts at the doctor and submit them for reimbursement. As well, they keeps the babyboomers happy.

Being a dismissive jerk about the giant "ifs" inherent with an HSA doesn't make those ifs go away. The math works if you don't wind up chronically ill and if you don't have other financial emergencies that prevent contribution and if you have the money available to pay up to your deductible to begin with in the event of an expensive medical issue. That seems like an awful lot of wagering going on for something that's supposed to be insurance.

These are not inconsequential concerns for a majority of American households. People on Fark seem to make more than average on the whole and they also seem to have a tendency to forget that half of all households in this country make about $50,000 or less, so those ifs are real issues for them.

Philip Francis Queeg: Median household income is $51,914.00

For a family with your plan who makes the median income that medical outlay would be 20.2% of their GROSS income.


That's median family income without the benefits calculated in. Anything your employer would contribute to your health insurance would, in essence, be knocked off the $11,100. The companies I worked with or managed contributed pretty close to that for full time employees anyway. But if you don't have medical expenses, it could be as little as $3600. With an insurance plan, it would probably be $12,000 with no opportunity for savings.

If you think this is a recipe for bankruptcy, you don't understand anything about finance, insurance, income, expenditure, net worth, or anything else that is even a 3rd cousin to a dollar sign.

Unfortunately, I am going to lose the plan I so dearly love in a few years, if not sooner. My agent has advised me that my plan may be prohibited under the Affordable Health Care Act. Even if it survives that, however, I will be required to go on Medicare when I reach 65. The good news is that whatever I may have in the account when I retire will be mine. I've been paying into it all these years through my FICA taxes. That came out of the $51,914, not the $11,100.

Ok, the thing about a bubble is that your house was really never worth that much. Maybe you should build wealth the old fashion way: spending less than you earn.

hitlersbrain: Wall of text aside, when you start costing an insurance company money, they will find a way to dump you. That's how free enterprise works. They are HUGE. Their CEOs make what you make in a year per HOUR. There is nothing you can do to them if they decide to just dump you.

If you get really sick you will lose everything and die penniless.

I'm glad you're happy with your plan but it is a sad comparison to the universal health care enjoyed in most first wold countries.


The insurance companies cannot drop you as long as you pay the premiums - it's in the policy. Your fear-mongering is false. You don't have a clue how the system works, how insurance works, how the free market works, how actuarial tables work - you are really just a cowering blob of paranoid protoplasm, which is exactly where your political leaders want you. That way you'll vote for them to take care of you. You are the kind that needs taking care of. You may want to move to one of those wonderful countries where Nanny State will take care of you. No, really. Leave. Please.

I love my HSA.

It's through my employer and is deducted pre-tax from my payroll. I basically match my contribution to it with my regular monthly healthcare costs (expensive prescriptions) and thus don't pay income tax for that amount.

I am a bit concerned about the Affordable Health Care Act, and what that might mean for my health insurance policy though. I have a HDHP with a painful $6000/year family deductible, but since my medical expenses tend to be large (heart condition) the 6 G's out of pocket makes more sense than the 80% - 20% split with co-pays. I fear getting forced into a plan that requires a co-pay.

'Serfs' in our romantacized history books... are slaves.

don't ever forget that when you find yourself longing for the return of princes and princesses.

i think it would be good for african americans to be reminded of that too.
the 1% will enslave everyone. it's not a black thing. white europeans were slaves during the long middle ages.

they call them 'serfs' in our history books because they want to bring back 'royalty'... so they don't want the two words to be associated.

slavery is the bedrock of the elite's philosophy.

Mr. Right: The insurance companies cannot drop you as long as you pay the premiums - it's in the policy.

There's a difference between "dropping" you and "not renewing" you.

Mr. Right: how insurance works

I know that virtually every care plan in the country anymore has a cap at which your benefits run out and that no insurance company in the nation would be crazy enough to sign a perpetual agreement with no out for themselves.

Mr. Right: you are really just a cowering blob of paranoid protoplasm, which is exactly where your political leaders want you

What an incredibly stupid comment.

Mr. Right: You may want to move to one of those wonderful countries where Nanny State will take care of you.

Yea, you have a it all figured out and the millions without healthcare, the millions more with inadequate healthcare, and the countless hordes economically ruined by massive costs even though they supposedly had care are just a myth or maybe lazy. Mr. Right, random farker, the man with all the answers. Why didn't anybody just ask you, right?

ArmanTanzarian: I am a bit concerned about the Affordable Health Care Act

The biggest change I'm aware of is that you no longer get pre-tax benefits for OTC medicines unless your doctor prescribes them for a chronic condition. I don't think AHCA did much regarding HSAs.

10 rape consumer base
20 "ZOMG CONSUMERS AREN'T BUYING THINGS!!!11!"
30 economy suffers
40 rich use influence to insulate themselves from responsibility
50 goto 10

Mr. Right: Philip Francis Queeg: Median household income is $51,914.00

For a family with your plan who makes the median income that medical outlay would be 20.2% of their GROSS income.


That's median family income without the benefits calculated in. Anything your employer would contribute to your health insurance would, in essence, be knocked off the $11,100. The companies I worked with or managed contributed pretty close to that for full time employees anyway. But if you don't have medical expenses, it could be as little as $3600. With an insurance plan, it would probably be $12,000 with no opportunity for savings.

If you think this is a recipe for bankruptcy, you don't understand anything about finance, insurance, income, expenditure, net worth, or anything else that is even a 3rd cousin to a dollar sign.

Unfortunately, I am going to lose the plan I so dearly love in a few years, if not sooner. My agent has advised me that my plan may be prohibited under the Affordable Health Care Act. Even if it survives that, however, I will be required to go on Medicare when I reach 65. The good news is that whatever I may have in the account when I retire will be mine. I've been paying into it all these years through my FICA taxes. That came out of the $51,914, not the $11,100.

You really don't understand how $7500 in out of pocket medical expense annually can be a recipe for bankruptcy for the average family? Seriously? What happens to that family when one of the kids come down with a serious chronic illness and they are meeting that deductible every single year? How much wealth will they be piling up in their beloved HSA account?

Incidentally, is the deductible in your plan for the entire family of for the individual?

LiberalEastCoastElitist: Ok, the thing about a bubble is that your house was really never worth that much. Maybe you should build wealth the old fashion way: spending less than you earn.

Amen, and dont buy into consumerism. You dont need all that crap anyways.

busy chillin': um, this is a capitalistic society, there is absolutely no reason for them to change anything to make it better for us. It goes against capitalism to help the employees make more money. You pay them the least amount they will accept. Not one penny more.


Where does it say free market capitalism is required for anything and everything in the Constitution? I must have missed that section.

Thunderpipes: Most Americans do not pay income taxes anymore either. In European countries, the tax structure is actually less progressive because most people help pay.


You're just a flat out liar.

In England, for example, you can make up to 34k pounds a year and only get taxed 10%.

That's basically the same as America where you pay FICA taxes to the federal government.

And yet you get even more services in England, such as health care, schooling, day care, etc. all FREE or heavily subsidized.

Your ignorant libertarian rants are boring, there are enough uneducated people in this topic, you're not needed, MEINRS6

Beerguy: LouDobbsAwaaaay: 10 rape consumer base
20 "ZOMG CONSUMERS AREN'T BUYING THINGS!!!11!"
30 economy suffers
40 rich use influence to insulate themselves from responsibility
50 goto 10

Pure win.

Can I please steal that?

Code isn't property. Run like the wind!

Philip Francis Queeg: You really don't understand how $7500 in out of pocket medical expense annually can be a recipe for bankruptcy for the average family? Seriously? What happens to that family when one of the kids come down with a serious chronic illness and they are meeting that deductible every single year? How much wealth will they be piling up in their beloved HSA account?

Incidentally, is the deductible in your plan for the entire family of for the individual?


I've answered every one of your stupid questions a couple of times just in this thread. Ignorance can be fixed. Adamant ignorance cannot. You are beyond help.

Splinshints: There's a difference between "dropping" you and "not renewing" you.

You an alt for hitlersbrain? Regardless, HSAs are an excellent insurance vehicle, they work. They work for healthy folks, they work for chronically ill folks. They work better than the standard insurance policies that most folks have. They work better than universal health care because they offer a chance for an individual to save a little money, even if they don't offer a guarantee.

They terrify anyone who is so timid as to desire to be a subject instead of a free citizen. They terrify any government bureaucrat or elected official that is such a tyrant they cannot tolerate the great unwashed having any control over their lives.

Are they perfect? No. Will they guarantee Nirvana? No. Will they promise Utopia? No. But they're the most cost effective opition for the greatest number of families in the middle class to help stay in the middle class, regardless of health status.

Mr. Right: Philip Francis Queeg: You really don't understand how $7500 in out of pocket medical expense annually can be a recipe for bankruptcy for the average family? Seriously? What happens to that family when one of the kids come down with a serious chronic illness and they are meeting that deductible every single year? How much wealth will they be piling up in their beloved HSA account?

Incidentally, is the deductible in your plan for the entire family of for the individual?


I've answered every one of your stupid questions a couple of times just in this thread. Ignorance can be fixed. Adamant ignorance cannot. You are beyond help.

I hope and your family stay healthy and you remains in good financial shape so that your HSA remains the best plan for you. You seem very emotionally attached to it.

intelligent comment below: busy chillin': um, this is a capitalistic society, there is absolutely no reason for them to change anything to make it better for us. It goes against capitalism to help the employees make more money. You pay them the least amount they will accept. Not one penny more.


Where does it say free market capitalism is required for anything and everything in the Constitution? I must have missed that section.

We dont have capitalistic free markets in every instance. Public transportation, public education, public utilities, and in some cases public health. But we still need private capitalistic free markets to drive the technological innovation and productive efficiency that brings real economic wealth to our nation. Both sides have benefits to society. So we dont need free market capitalism for everything, but we sure do enjoy the fruits of that system, like the refridgerators, xboxes, cell phones, Air conditioning and other comforts of life that have been produced by the capitalistic system and trickled down to all segments of society.

Splinshints: Being a dismissive jerk about the giant "ifs" inherent with an HSA doesn't make those ifs go away. The math works if you don't wind up chronically ill and if you don't have other financial emergencies that prevent contribution and if you have the money available to pay up to your deductible to begin with in the event of an expensive medical issue. That seems like an awful lot of wagering going on for something that's supposed to be insurance.

It's actually the exact opposite, HSA plans are GREAT if you wind up chronically ill or have a catastrophe in a year, as you only need to meet the deductible and the plan picks up everything after that. If you wind up with 100,000+ going in and out of specialized visits, you only need to meet your deductible and the plan picks up everything after that. While a traditional HMO plan will fark you with copays and coinsurance, and if you have to go out of network for a specialist you're probably gonna get farked royally.

HSA Plans are BAD if you have a ongoing medical issues for you and your family. As you will probably meet your deductible in the year but not much of the plan picking up afterwards, and not get much in savings in your HSA. If you constant ongoing medical needs that requires lots of visits, especially if you have costly prescriptions, then you would be much better off on a traditional plan.



Philip Francis Queeg: You really don't understand how $7500 in out of pocket medical expense annually can be a recipe for bankruptcy for the average family? Seriously? What happens to that family when one of the kids come down with a serious chronic illness and they are meeting that deductible every single year? How much wealth will they be piling up in their beloved HSA account?

Incidentally, is the deductible in your plan for the entire family of for the individual?

Actually, what you don't understand is that $7,500 is either coming out of front end or the backend. Coincidentally, it's about $7,000 now to insure a family of four. So by your logic that family should be going bankrupt just to even have insurance. But it just gets deducted out of their paycheck so it's an easy decision for them to make. While a $7,000 bill screams right out at them (even though could get equal financing options from almost any hospital).

Yes, the employer covers some. But they could also be putting their contribution into topping off your HSA as the beginning of the year. Most employers decide to set X amount of dollars aside for the year for their broker to best manage the plan, but most have been staying away from HSAs (except most super white collar employers) as they think it will be too confusing for their employees. It is in fact, but it would be better for them overall. Also, I work with employers making decisions on their benefit and compensation package, trust me, the 18% annual inflation on premiums since Health Care Reform is a big factor in why their employees haven't been getting raises the last couple years.

Or instead, they can lower their premiums to about $3,000, and try to net about three of fourr grand a year in their HSA. In their good years they can sock away any money they didn't use for future use. While an HMO or PPO plan that money is just *poof* gone. Let's say after ten years you have $30K nest egg built up earning a safe 4% interest. You have something catastrophic happen and you only need to meet the deductible for the year. Yes, you now only have 23K in your nest egg, but you're also 23K richer after saving all the money you would have wasted in premiums that did nothing but go back to the insurance company because they only paid a doctor a couple times you had the snivels.

I know it's confusing, and it's not for everybody. But for somebody with very little health care costs or with very much health care costs they are great financially. For the people in the middle however, it generally works out better to have a traditional plan. But if you can understand how it works I generally recommend it to everyone. Alot of times your company's broker has people that can work it over with the employees that nobody ever uses. Try sitting down with them for a half hour or so and really learn how the process works on your benefit package. Stay away from your HR people though.

If you're self employed, well, you'll probably just have to figure it out.