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(Click Orlando)   The death of the middle class continues, as the average income of middle-class families has decreased 40% compared to twenty years ago   (clickorlando.com) divider line 491
    More: Sick, consumer finance, account balances, middle class, families  
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10677 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Jun 2012 at 2:22 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-12 03:55:00 AM

WhyteRaven74: Ebbelwoi: I don't see anything in the article that supports what he wrote in the headline.

Subby used income instead of worth, big whoop. The the 40 percent figure is accurate.


"big whoop". Look how farking stupid you are.
 
2012-06-12 03:55:47 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: "big whoop". Look how farking stupid you are.


So, you don't want to take about the issue in TFA either do you?
 
2012-06-12 03:57:59 AM
poor people suck!
 
2012-06-12 04:00:58 AM

Tellingthem: Probably just the history nerd in me coming out. and the whiskey talking.


hehe :) rum and coke here, though that's wearing off, but at 3AM that's ok. On the other hand, might night just got better thanks :D
 
2012-06-12 04:01:52 AM

WhyteRaven74: Ebbelwoi: You know, there are those of us for whom "small details" like the difference between net worth and annual income really are "big whoop",

It's a headline on Fark, not the title of a paper in an economics journal. Hell odds are subby didn't even realize the gaffe. So how about dealing with the actual meat and potatoes of TFA? Or shall we have more fun with ad hominem at subby's expense?


Why should I? It's farking Fark, not an economics forum.
 
2012-06-12 04:01:52 AM

untaken_name: Why don't you go ahead and substantively criticize the plank I already did? If you can handle that, we'll move on to plank #2


I already destroyed Plank #1.

So let's move on to Plank #2.
 
2012-06-12 04:04:03 AM
Part of me wants Democrats to get out of the Republican's way and just let them drive the economy over the cliff, so Americans will finally come to their senses, but then I remember how farking stupid the American public is and how they'd listen to the Republicans as they blame the Dems for the disaster.
 
2012-06-12 04:04:35 AM

WhyteRaven74: Tellingthem: Probably just the history nerd in me coming out. and the whiskey talking.

hehe :) rum and coke here, though that's wearing off, but at 3AM that's ok. On the other hand, might night just got better thanks :D


You are welcome. I remember saying I was going to buy you a drink sometime over a racing post. Well this will have to work for now. cheers!
 
2012-06-12 04:06:44 AM

WhyteRaven74: Debeo Summa Credo: "big whoop". Look how farking stupid you are.

So, you don't want to take about the issue in TFA either do you?


Sure. The articles main point was that the median net worth (not income)of American families dropped by 40% from 2007 to 2010 (4 years, not 20).

Since the most significant asset for most families is the family home, and the period of 2007 to 2010 witnessed the popping of te real estate bubble, it is not remotely surprising or outrageous that median net worth has plummeted. TFA even provided you with that clue.

It would be interesting to contrast the decline in median net worth fr '07 until noe to the increase in net worth from '00 to '06, while the bubble was inflating.
 
2012-06-12 04:07:48 AM
Speaking of communists, there's the old standby Thomas Paine, who over 200 years ago wrote that everyone upon turning 21 should be given 20 pounds, in Paine's words "as a compensation in part for the loss of his or her natural inheritance by the introduction of the system of landed property."
 
2012-06-12 04:08:29 AM

HotWingAgenda: That's an interesting paraphrasing of Marxist philosophy, with one twist. Getting rid of the middle class isn't what causes the collapse. The cause of populist uprisings is mistreatment aimed directly at the bottom rung, while leaving the educated middle class intact to serve as the qualified leaders and organizers of a rebel movement.

The best way to undermine a populist uprising is to do what the US is currently doing: destroy the middle class social leaders, but give extra special handouts to the poorest fraction of society to keep them happy. It's comparable to sapping the corner turrets of a medieval fortress - don't aim for the gate or the walls, just take out the corners that provide the real structure.

Without the middle class, disgruntled poor people never get beyond mild discontent. There's a reason the Middle Ages were so free of revolts, until the rise of the bourgeoisie.


This is true.

Uprisings are always done by the middle class against the ruling group. The usurpers have to be moderately well off and highly educated, and organized enough to enlist the lower classes on their side to win their bid for power. Orwell's essays in the middle of 1984 speak of it.

We even have names for the different types of uprisings. When ruling groups fight each other, its generally called a Civil War. When its a middle class fighting a ruling group, it's called a Revolution. When the lower class fight anyone, its usually just a riot. The lower classes never achieve any of their aims, if they had any. They're too disorganized, uneducated and stupid to truly seize power in the Marxian tradition. All communist revolutions have depended on an educated and driven administrative class.
 
2012-06-12 04:08:38 AM

Tellingthem: Well this will have to work for now. cheers!


cheers :)
 
2012-06-12 04:12:41 AM

Ishkur:
I think the question you should be asking isn't "Why should I pay taxes on property I own?" but rather "Why should the rest of us permit you to own property if you don't want to pay for the infrastructure necessary to ensure that ownership?"


blessthe40oz.com
 
2012-06-12 04:15:28 AM

The My Little Pony Killer: In before somebody chimes in with airtight advice for how to get high paying jobs, like going into engineering...


Tried it, didn't work out so well. Graduated and just meant I still have no money/job and didn't get to at least enjoy those years like the people with a lesser workload.
 
2012-06-12 04:19:21 AM

Lupine Chemist: The My Little Pony Killer: In before somebody chimes in with airtight advice for how to get high paying jobs, like going into engineering...

Tried it, didn't work out so well. Graduated and just meant I still have no money/job and didn't get to at least enjoy those years like the people with a lesser workload.


Lesser workload? Try drinking with the Japanese department.
 
2012-06-12 04:20:02 AM

Ishkur: I think the question you should be asking isn't "Why should I pay taxes on property I own?" but rather "Why should the rest of us permit you to own property if you don't want to pay for the infrastructure necessary to ensure that ownership?"


Not if "pay for the infrastructure" is just code for giving hand-outs to the poor.
 
2012-06-12 04:21:15 AM
The private sector is doing fine.
 
2012-06-12 04:23:48 AM

Kali-Yuga: Not if "pay for the infrastructure" is just code for giving hand-outs to the poor.


What's wrong with providing for the poor?
 
2012-06-12 04:24:42 AM
> What's wrong with providing for the poor?

We hates them. They wants our precious.
 
2012-06-12 04:25:35 AM

Kali-Yuga: Ishkur: I think the question you should be asking isn't "Why should I pay taxes on property I own?" but rather "Why should the rest of us permit you to own property if you don't want to pay for the infrastructure necessary to ensure that ownership?"

Not if "pay for the infrastructure" is just code for giving hand-outs to the poor.


If it helps you sleep at night, don't call it "hand-outs to the poor". Call it "guillotine insurance".
 
2012-06-12 04:27:28 AM

ialdabaoth: Kali-Yuga: Ishkur: I think the question you should be asking isn't "Why should I pay taxes on property I own?" but rather "Why should the rest of us permit you to own property if you don't want to pay for the infrastructure necessary to ensure that ownership?"

Not if "pay for the infrastructure" is just code for giving hand-outs to the poor.

If it helps you sleep at night, don't call it "hand-outs to the poor". Call it "guillotine insurance".


Maybe e doesn't take the guillotine part seriously because it's going to made out of Paul Krugman's dick.
 
2012-06-12 04:28:03 AM

Kali-Yuga: Ishkur: I think the question you should be asking isn't "Why should I pay taxes on property I own?" but rather "Why should the rest of us permit you to own property if you don't want to pay for the infrastructure necessary to ensure that ownership?"

Not if "pay for the infrastructure" is just code for giving hand-outs to the poor.


The less fortunate get all the breaks!
 
2012-06-12 04:31:10 AM
andreas.com

Taxes so unfair.
Half my millions taxed away.
Your food stamps untouched.
 
2012-06-12 04:37:10 AM
Trickle down voodoo supply side Reganomics is working beautifully.

For the 0.1%.

Suckers.
 
2012-06-12 04:39:14 AM

NateAsbestos: Kali-Yuga: Ishkur: I think the question you should be asking isn't "Why should I pay taxes on property I own?" but rather "Why should the rest of us permit you to own property if you don't want to pay for the infrastructure necessary to ensure that ownership?"

Not if "pay for the infrastructure" is just code for giving hand-outs to the poor.

The less fortunate get all the breaks!


Those damn less fortunate! Getting rich off us!!! Driving around in their fancy K cars, rubbing it in our faces.
 
2012-06-12 04:39:25 AM

WhyteRaven74: What's wrong with providing for the poor?


Nothing at all, as long as it's voluntary. I give money to several charities and non-profits in fact, but ones of my own choosing. But there is definitely something wrong with the forced redistribution of wealth by the government.

There's a big difference between helping to pay for roads, schools, fire and police and giving out welfare checks to people who aren't capable of supporting themselves, and giving them incentives to have more babies they can't afford. People who make a living off of welfare checks even get Earned Income Credit checks at tax time.

The government has spent $5.4 trillion over the past 30 years on welfare and yet the poverty rate hasn't declined at all. Government does not exist for charity. In fact, government never really gives charity, because it does not give what it has created; it gives what it has confiscated from the "productive members" of society.

"The welfare state is nothing more than a mechanism by which governments confiscate the wealth of the productive members of a society to support a wide variety of welfare schemes." -Alan Greenspan-
 
2012-06-12 04:43:39 AM

Kali-Yuga: "The welfare state is nothing more than a mechanism by which governments confiscate the wealth of the productive members of a society to support a wide variety of welfare schemes." -Alan Greenspan-


This is the same guy who recommended that people, at the height of the housing bubble, get adjustable rate mortgages instead of fixed rate.

Alan Greenspan is just some guy that had political connections, not some great sage.
 
2012-06-12 04:44:20 AM

ialdabaoth: If it helps you sleep at night, don't call it "hand-outs to the poor". Call it "guillotine insurance".


I'd be in Galt's Gulch before it got to that point.
 
2012-06-12 04:44:39 AM
Meh. 86& of statistics are made up anyway.
 
2012-06-12 04:44:59 AM
How much was caused by the fact that the people realized overpriced shacks are not worth 20 years' salary?

Not saying that the middle class isn't hurting, but real estate prices returning to sane levels shouldn't be counted as a bad thing.
 
2012-06-12 04:50:21 AM
I have a feeling the poor will be reclining in the homes of the rich very soon.

I wonder, what get blood stains out of silk?
 
2012-06-12 04:51:05 AM
Our 1st world economies are driven by the consumption of a healthy middle class, not the 1%.

The 1%ers are digging their own graves in making war on the middle class. When we go, so goes their own prosperity.

PS - the Dark Ages were not just caused by religion, it was caused by the death of the Roman era middle class and the birth of the massive feudal era serf class. Religion just made it easier to control the serfs.
 
2012-06-12 04:52:10 AM

Kali-Yuga: The government has spent $5.4 trillion over the past 30 years on welfare and yet the poverty rate hasn't declined at all. Government does not exist for charity. In fact, government never really gives charity, because it does not give what it has created; it gives what it has confiscated from the "productive members" of society.


Has the lack of upward mobility been factored in? Or the S&L crisis? Or the rise in energy prices? Or the cost of being uninsured or paying for the uninsured?
 
2012-06-12 04:55:27 AM
I wonder how much traction mass euthanasia of poor people could get? We don't actually NEED them any more, now that everything can be automated.
 
2012-06-12 04:58:54 AM

Corporate Self: I wonder, what get blood stains out of silk?


The tears of the rich.
 
2012-06-12 05:01:12 AM

zzrhardy: it was caused by the death of the Roman era middle class


Most historians think that it's a response to the power vacuum formed the collapse of the Roman empire due to its overstretched, incompetent, corrupt, and wasteful government.
 
2012-06-12 05:08:35 AM

Kali-Yuga: ialdabaoth: If it helps you sleep at night, don't call it "hand-outs to the poor". Call it "guillotine insurance".

I'd be in Galt's Gulch before it got to that point.


I doubt you'd be in so deep that a mob of angry peasants couldn't pull you out of him.
 
2012-06-12 05:10:02 AM

Deathfrogg: I sound fat:

Dont let the door hit you on the way out.... sounds like a job just opened up in America for someone who wants to be here.

Why would anyone want to live in a Country where a tonsillectomy or an appendectomy can cost a years gross wages, and a Police officer can shoot your dog or you on a whim? Why would anyone want to live in a Country where the wealthiest citizens are allowed to gather so much wealth that they could never spend it in a million lifetimes, while the people that work for them are being told to starve and like it?

You can't throw people out of work and then accuse them of being lazy when they can't find a job. You can't price education so high where only the wealthy can afford it, and then sneer at people who aren't educated. Thats the exact reason why we kicked the British out. Twice.


I get what you are saying. Just dont let the door hit you on your way out.

See, everyone in the thread knows you are blowing smoke. We all know you arent leaving. We all know you are full of crap
 
2012-06-12 05:11:57 AM

I sound fat: Deathfrogg: I sound fat:

Dont let the door hit you on the way out.... sounds like a job just opened up in America for someone who wants to be here.

Why would anyone want to live in a Country where a tonsillectomy or an appendectomy can cost a years gross wages, and a Police officer can shoot your dog or you on a whim? Why would anyone want to live in a Country where the wealthiest citizens are allowed to gather so much wealth that they could never spend it in a million lifetimes, while the people that work for them are being told to starve and like it?

You can't throw people out of work and then accuse them of being lazy when they can't find a job. You can't price education so high where only the wealthy can afford it, and then sneer at people who aren't educated. Thats the exact reason why we kicked the British out. Twice.

I get what you are saying. Just dont let the door hit you on your way out.

See, everyone in the thread knows you are blowing smoke. We all know you arent leaving. We all know you are full of crap


You should just hunt him down and kill him and his family. It'll do everyone a favor.
 
2012-06-12 05:15:58 AM

Kali-Yuga: I give money to several charities and non-profits in fact, but ones of my own choosing.


Hear hear!

I don't want my charity dollars going to people I don't like! Government redistribution is inefficient and wastes money!

Private charities are much better!

And churches are even better still!

static1.travelandleisure.com
 
2012-06-12 05:17:07 AM

ialdabaoth: Kali-Yuga: Ishkur: I think the question you should be asking isn't "Why should I pay taxes on property I own?" but rather "Why should the rest of us permit you to own property if you don't want to pay for the infrastructure necessary to ensure that ownership?"

Not if "pay for the infrastructure" is just code for giving hand-outs to the poor.

If it helps you sleep at night, don't call it "hand-outs to the poor". Call it "guillotine insurance".


Or "extortion".

Sad it always comes to this. Neo-communists lose all the substantive arguments regarding wealth transfer (because they are idiots who confuse a 40% housing bust related drop in net worth with a 40% drop in income) and inevitably resort to the "pay us or we'll take it" line of reasoning.
 
2012-06-12 05:20:25 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: ialdabaoth: Kali-Yuga: Ishkur: I think the question you should be asking isn't "Why should I pay taxes on property I own?" but rather "Why should the rest of us permit you to own property if you don't want to pay for the infrastructure necessary to ensure that ownership?"

Not if "pay for the infrastructure" is just code for giving hand-outs to the poor.

If it helps you sleep at night, don't call it "hand-outs to the poor". Call it "guillotine insurance".

Or "extortion".

Sad it always comes to this. Neo-communists lose all the substantive arguments regarding wealth transfer (because they are idiots who confuse a 40% housing bust related drop in net worth with a 40% drop in income) and inevitably resort to the "pay us or we'll take it" line of reasoning.


Or you can kill them.
 
2012-06-12 05:21:41 AM
Haiti is the model for the new ameriduh......

The US is moving very rapidly to third world status.

Stay in the US, they will take the rest of your wealth.

Of course it will be legal......the judges are bought and paid for, the politicians are sociopaths and the po po are fast becoming
the enforcing arm of corporations.

You guys r Facked!
 
2012-06-12 05:21:59 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: ialdabaoth: Kali-Yuga: Ishkur: I think the question you should be asking isn't "Why should I pay taxes on property I own?" but rather "Why should the rest of us permit you to own property if you don't want to pay for the infrastructure necessary to ensure that ownership?"

Not if "pay for the infrastructure" is just code for giving hand-outs to the poor.

If it helps you sleep at night, don't call it "hand-outs to the poor". Call it "guillotine insurance".

Or "extortion".

Sad it always comes to this. Neo-communists lose all the substantive arguments regarding wealth transfer (because they are idiots who confuse a 40% housing bust related drop in net worth with a 40% drop in income) and inevitably resort to the "pay us or we'll take it" line of reasoning.


You can replace "the poor" and "guillotine" in his post with "banks" and "financial collapse" and it would make just as much sense.
 
2012-06-12 05:26:00 AM

super_grass: Debeo Summa Credo: ialdabaoth: Kali-Yuga: Ishkur: I think the question you should be asking isn't "Why should I pay taxes on property I own?" but rather "Why should the rest of us permit you to own property if you don't want to pay for the infrastructure necessary to ensure that ownership?"

Not if "pay for the infrastructure" is just code for giving hand-outs to the poor.

If it helps you sleep at night, don't call it "hand-outs to the poor". Call it "guillotine insurance".

Or "extortion".

Sad it always comes to this. Neo-communists lose all the substantive arguments regarding wealth transfer (because they are idiots who confuse a 40% housing bust related drop in net worth with a 40% drop in income) and inevitably resort to the "pay us or we'll take it" line of reasoning.

You can replace "the poor" and "guillotine" in his post with "banks" and "financial collapse" and it would make just as much sense.


No, because those people have power. They get to pick who lives and who dies.

The poor can suck it.
 
2012-06-12 05:28:16 AM

Petit_Merdeux: Private charities are much better


From your own source: "High salaries do not necessarily indicate inefficiencies, just as low salaries are not always a plus." I agree that one should make informed decisions on which charities they donate to.

And I happen to think churches should be taxed too.

The way to decrease poverty and welfare dependence is by education and job training of the poor, not paying them to sit at home and pop out babies so their monthly check gets bigger.
 
2012-06-12 05:31:16 AM

untaken_name: fusillade762: untaken_name: You mean Communism doesn't work? Color me shocked.

Are you sure you're in the right thread?

Quite sure. Today, Americans practice all 10 planks of the Communist Manifesto in one form or another. Oh, we call them by different names, which totally means they're different, of course. In case you're actually interested, I will start you with the first plank: Abolition of all right to property in land and application of all rents of land to public purpose. This is how land works in the US. If you think you own some land, stop paying rent (property tax), and watch the true owner claim his property and sell it on the courthouse steps. If you truly OWNED the land, that could not happen (and, in fact, did not happen in this country as little as 1 century ago.)


You voted for RON PAUL, didn't you?
 
2012-06-12 05:31:21 AM

Kali-Yuga: Petit_Merdeux: Private charities are much better

From your own source: "High salaries do not necessarily indicate inefficiencies, just as low salaries are not always a plus." I agree that one should make informed decisions on which charities they donate to.

And I happen to think churches should be taxed too.

The way to decrease poverty and welfare dependence is by education and job training of the poor, not paying them to sit at home and pop out babies so their monthly check gets bigger.


Alternatively, we take the military, line them up in ranks, and start marching on every major urban center, laying down suppressing fire with automatic weapons until there's nothing left that moves. Pull all the important people out first, and once we're done the population is back to manageable levels.
 
2012-06-12 05:31:21 AM

I sound fat: Deathfrogg: I sound fat:

Dont let the door hit you on the way out.... sounds like a job just opened up in America for someone who wants to be here.

Why would anyone want to live in a Country where a tonsillectomy or an appendectomy can cost a years gross wages, and a Police officer can shoot your dog or you on a whim? Why would anyone want to live in a Country where the wealthiest citizens are allowed to gather so much wealth that they could never spend it in a million lifetimes, while the people that work for them are being told to starve and like it?

You can't throw people out of work and then accuse them of being lazy when they can't find a job. You can't price education so high where only the wealthy can afford it, and then sneer at people who aren't educated. Thats the exact reason why we kicked the British out. Twice.

I get what you are saying. Just dont let the door hit you on your way out.

See, everyone in the thread knows you are blowing smoke. We all know you arent leaving. We all know you are full of crap


I did take my taxpayer funded engineering degree abroad. Have fun tightening immigration law to help at the very least slow down brain gain if not cause brain drain.
 
2012-06-12 05:32:56 AM

Debeo Summa Credo: Or "extortion".


Yes, that perfectly describes what the financial industry did in 2008 when they gambled away everybody's money.
 
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