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(Indiana)   ♫ I shot the sheriff ♫ And I did it legally in Indiana ♫   (allgov.com) divider line 312
    More: Interesting, first state, Fraternal Order of Police, law enforcement officers, sheriffs  
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23524 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jun 2012 at 11:11 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-11 07:34:10 PM
I'm usually on the other side of gun debate laws, but I have no issue with this one.

I remember reading about a case where police used a no-knock warrant on the wrong house. The man living their used a gun and shot the guy who had just broken into his bedroom. It turns out it was the police and he went to jail for killing the officer even though they were at the wrong house and the homeowner had been doing nothing wrong.
 
2012-06-11 07:44:26 PM
Agreed Bunnyhat ! Police entering a residence with or without a warrant must identify themselves AND (heres the kicker) Have the right address. Wanton disregard for the rights of their employer is rampant..Its a dangerous job, you expect the police to defend themselves, how can anyone expect otherwise from the public? The expectation of Law enforcement that others stand down, while they unload in the wrong damn house is not conductive to good order...Or long life.
 
2012-06-11 07:53:06 PM
Here's the only problem with this. How does the person in the home determine whether or not the police action is legal before they decide to start shooting at them?

Rightly or wrongly, there are going to be some dead folks as a result of this law. And, whether they are in the right or not, most of those dead folks probably won't be the police.

"Hey, look, it's SWAT with a no-knock search warrant." "My GED in law tells me that their no-knock entry is illegal, so I'll start shooting at them." "Oops, they have a lot more armor, weapons, and training...now I'm dead..."
 
2012-06-11 08:47:49 PM
I'm okay with it. The law (all of it) applies to BOTH the citizens and law enforcement, contrary to what may be believed at local stations.
 
2012-06-11 08:55:06 PM
So Stand Your Ground is cool and all when it's the Cops, but not if it's a drugged-out minority youth coming to get you.
 
2012-06-11 09:04:44 PM

low_dazzle: So Stand Your Ground is cool and all when it's the Cops, but not if it's a drugged-out minority youth coming to get you.


Stand your ground and castle doctrine are two very different things.

I have no problem with people using lethal force on intruders inside their home.
I have a lot of issues with people playing judge, jury, and executioner. Specially when they are the ones who escalated the situation. I have problems with people shooting someone in the back and claiming it was self defense under stand your ground. I have problems with people shooting an unharmed person who hadn't even physically assaulted them yet and claim self-defense under stand your ground. I have a problem with people trespassing on someone elses property and then killing the homeowner while claiming self-defense under stand your ground. I have a problem with people stalking and then murdering a young man and claiming self defense under stand your ground.

I have no problem with someone defending their lives against a home invader.
 
2012-06-11 09:18:11 PM
Bunnyhat:


I have a lot of issues with people playing judge, jury, and executioner. Specially when they are the ones who escalated the situation. I have problems with people shooting someone in the back and claiming it was self defense under stand your ground. I have problems with people shooting an unharmed person who hadn't even physically assaulted them yet and claim self-defense under stand your ground. I have a problem with people trespassing on someone elses property and then killing the homeowner while claiming self-defense under stand your ground. I have a problem with people stalking and then murdering a young man and claiming self defense under stand your ground.

I have no problem with someone defending their lives against a home invader.



So if I don't call it Stand Your Ground, and just call it shooting people, that still sounds anti-cop to me.
 
2012-06-11 09:20:19 PM

low_dazzle: So Stand Your Ground is cool and all when it's the Cops, but not if it's a drugged-out minority youth coming to get you.


Armed law enforcement vs. kid with skittles. You've done well. I expect great trolls from you.
 
2012-06-11 09:21:59 PM

djkutch: low_dazzle: So Stand Your Ground is cool and all when it's the Cops, but not if it's a drugged-out minority youth coming to get you.

Armed law enforcement vs. kid with skittles. You've done well. I expect great trolls from you.


I so rarely get in early enough.
 
2012-06-11 09:25:08 PM
FTFA: Tim Downs, president of the Indiana State Fraternal Order of Police, which opposed the legislation, said the law could open the way for people who are under the influence or emotionally distressed to attack officers in their homes.

"It's just a recipe for disaster," Downs told Bloomberg. "It just puts a bounty on our heads."


Hyperbole much?

/I'm OK with this law
 
2012-06-11 09:38:17 PM
If the police hit your house by mistake and you shoot at them you are going to have a couple hundred bullets flying at you. Still, I like the law. Get the f*cking address right you stupid pigs.
 
2012-06-11 09:45:09 PM
newsimg.bbc.co.uk

Now they need to legalize black talon apr

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-06-11 10:33:00 PM
So a little background if you care-(this is kinda from memory and I'm a few credits short for my GED in law)

A couple years back 2 officers responded to a 911 call of domestic violence in a small Indiana town. When they got there, the girlfriend/wife/whatever recanted and the guy blocked the front door refusing to let them in. Indiana has one of those automatic arrest thingies for domestic violence(girl had visible marks) so the cops entered the guy's house(legally) and the dude started punching and kicking them. So he gets arrested, but the domestic violence charge doesnt stick. To get out of the assaulting a police officer charge, he gets the ICLU on his side and they argue something along the lines of it being an illegal entry because there was no domestic violence. Goes all the way to the Indiana Supreme court who rule that under the existing (broadly written law) citizens shouldnt resist cops whether the entry was legal or not because it puts everyone in danger. The victim(homeowner) can seek remedy through the court system later if they did indeed have their rights violated(cough-laf). Couple all that with a huge uptick in no-knock warrants, and Indiana's recent publicized promotion(and corruption) of the property-seizure biz-- and you got the libertarians(and a whole lot of liberals) going batshiat screechy. Sooo, this law was put in place to actually put restrictions on the previous law which was so poorly written it gave police carte-blanche to do pretty much whatever the fark they wanted, even in the homes of private citizens.

Because People in power are Stupid: Now they need to legalize black talon apr

They were never illegal. Just discontinued.
 
2012-06-11 10:45:01 PM

dugitman: So a little background if you care-(this is kinda from memory and I'm a few credits short for my GED in law)

A couple years back 2 officers responded to a 911 call of domestic violence in a small Indiana town. When they got there, the girlfriend/wife/whatever recanted and the guy blocked the front door refusing to let them in. Indiana has one of those automatic arrest thingies for domestic violence(girl had visible marks) so the cops entered the guy's house(legally) and the dude started punching and kicking them. So he gets arrested, but the domestic violence charge doesnt stick. To get out of the assaulting a police officer charge, he gets the ICLU on his side and they argue something along the lines of it being an illegal entry because there was no domestic violence. Goes all the way to the Indiana Supreme court who rule that under the existing (broadly written law) citizens shouldnt resist cops whether the entry was legal or not because it puts everyone in danger. The victim(homeowner) can seek remedy through the court system later if they did indeed have their rights violated(cough-laf). Couple all that with a huge uptick in no-knock warrants, and Indiana's recent publicized promotion(and corruption) of the property-seizure biz-- and you got the libertarians(and a whole lot of liberals) going batshiat screechy. Sooo, this law was put in place to actually put restrictions on the previous law which was so poorly written it gave police carte-blanche to do pretty much whatever the fark they wanted, even in the homes of private citizens.


Thanks!

/it does make a bit more sense in that context

 
2012-06-11 11:11:18 PM
This law seems overly broad. However, with more and more police forces wanting to play soldier and do no knock warrants at night I am totally okay with this. If I'm at home asleep and the door comes crashing down because they are at the wrong house shouldn't be under any obligation to wait and find out if they are cops who can't read an address correctly before I start shooting.

I would think that the real impact of this law will be that cops who get a hard on pretending they are in the military will be forced to think twice about unnecessary no knock warrants. And when they do get such a warrant they'll be more likely to make sure they check the address before they come in guns drawn.
 
2012-06-11 11:15:39 PM
low_dazzle: So Stand Your Ground is cool and all when it's the Cops, but not if it's a drugged-out minority youth coming to get you.

0.1/10.

Your trolling needs to include more about Arizona brand canned Teas, skittles brand candies, and black people. YOU NEED TO SELL THE BRAND!
 
2012-06-11 11:16:20 PM
In the future, everyone will be Robocop instead of just thinking they're Robocop.
 
2012-06-11 11:18:45 PM
If they aren't doing anything wrong, they shouldn't have anything to fear.
 
2012-06-11 11:21:18 PM
Without context- Indiana has taken the crazy lead from Wisconsin and Michigan

With a bit of context- they're still looking like they're going to place.

/Isn't your legislature full of lawyers like everyone else's?
 
2012-06-11 11:22:28 PM

AverageAmericanGuy: If they aren't doing anything wrong, they shouldn't have anything to fear.


Exactly. This is what they tell the folks they stop/detain/question.

/My stepson was an officer
//He got out because of The System
 
2012-06-11 11:24:13 PM
The way i see it... the constitution is our highest law. Armed civilian breaking into a house, burglary, tresspassing, whole host of other things probably...

Cop illegally entering a house, either with the wrong address or just not caring, theyre guilty of all of the above AND in violation of the constitution. Which is much much worse IMHO anyway...
 
2012-06-11 11:26:28 PM
allowing residents to use deadly force against public servants, including law enforcement officers criminals who unlawfully enter their homes.

simplified for ya
 
2012-06-11 11:27:59 PM
Maybe we should stop funding police militarization. Seriously, what point is there to invading a home at night? Most cops will go on about how dangerous this threat to our freedoms really is, but how is that worse than power-hungry assholes playing soldier on our dime?
 
2012-06-11 11:28:23 PM

Thoguh: This law seems overly broad. However, with more and more police forces wanting to play soldier and do no knock warrants at night I am totally okay with this. If I'm at home asleep and the door comes crashing down because they are at the wrong house shouldn't be under any obligation to wait and find out if they are cops who can't read an address correctly before I start shooting.

I would think that the real impact of this law will be that cops who get a hard on pretending they are in the military will be forced to think twice about unnecessary no knock warrants. And when they do get such a warrant they'll be more likely to make sure they check the address before they come in guns drawn.


The real issue here isn't that a citizen is protected when he is unaware that police are entering his home (situation you described).

You said the police better check the address on the warrants...how does the homeowner know if the warrant is valid?

What this does is embolden people to make a split second decision to shoot a police officer who is in uniform and lawfully announced simply because they think the warrant is invalid. That's not the right way it should be handled. The police announce and break down your door, you go peaceably and take your case to the courts.

No-knock warrants are a different story. But this seems to cover all police entries.
 
2012-06-11 11:30:32 PM

Because People in power are Stupid: [newsimg.bbc.co.uk image 203x290]

Now they need to legalize black talon apr

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x480]


First off, I applaud Indiana. If someone breaks into my home uninvited, they better be screaming "Police!" at the top of their lungs. And if they don't have the uniform to match that claim, they get plugged anyway. Good luck with that bullet proof vest smucko, it won't save you.

As to the Black talon ammo. You can still buy a few different loads that are 2nd and 3rd generation, a better product than the original. There is no law stopping you from buying them now, as long as you pay the tax, and don't pretend to be a LEO.
 
2012-06-11 11:30:37 PM
Guntram Shatterhand: Maybe we should stop funding police militarization. Seriously, what point is there to invading a home at night? Most cops will go on about how dangerous this threat to our freedoms really is, but how is that worse than power-hungry assholes playing soldier on our dime?

Please tell me how the police have access to Military equipment you can't purchase as a civilian, again?

And, please don't say because they carry M-4s or MP-5s on patrol. Because I can go down the street to the gunshop and buy one with a tax stamp.
 
2012-06-11 11:30:59 PM
Even if you know the entry is illegal, and start shooting at the police..its a good chance that you're gonna get killed, or get someone in your family killed. If they are wrong, take them to court for kicking your door in. Shooting at them just welcomes a "hail of return gunfire" scenario.
 
2012-06-11 11:31:09 PM

violentsalvation: If the police hit your house by mistake and you shoot at them you are going to have a couple hundred bullets flying at you. Still, I like the law. Get the f*cking address right you stupid pigs.


You've seen way too many movies.
 
2012-06-11 11:31:26 PM
I normally support our law enforcement folks, but if you enter my house in the middle of the night, you had better expect what comes flying down the hallway. I really don't care who you are.
 
2012-06-11 11:31:27 PM

Ken VeryBigLiar: Without context- Indiana has taken the crazy lead from Wisconsin and Michigan

With a bit of context- they're still looking like they're going to place.

/Isn't your legislature full of lawyers like everyone else's?


Actually no. It has some, but we still run a part-time legislature with a single 3 month session. There are a LOT of numbskulls in there who get in off their dad or grandpa's name. We still have township governments (1000 gerrymandered little fiefdoms) working as the farm system to the state assembly, so nepotism and local popularity contests win out in the rural areas. That's how the girl-scout cookie conspiracy guy from last year got in.
 
2012-06-11 11:31:34 PM

low_dazzle: djkutch: low_dazzle: So Stand Your Ground is cool and all when it's the Cops, but not if it's a drugged-out minority youth coming to get you.

Armed law enforcement vs. kid with skittles. You've done well. I expect great trolls from you.

I so rarely get in early enough.


Next time, let it ride. Avoid the temptation to interact. See if you get more bites. More to work with.
 
2012-06-11 11:35:06 PM

dugitman: Ken VeryBigLiar: Without context- Indiana has taken the crazy lead from Wisconsin and Michigan

With a bit of context- they're still looking like they're going to place.

/Isn't your legislature full of lawyers like everyone else's?

Actually no. It has some, but we still run a part-time legislature with a single 3 month session. There are a LOT of numbskulls in there who get in off their dad or grandpa's name. We still have township governments (1000 gerrymandered little fiefdoms) working as the farm system to the state assembly, so nepotism and local popularity contests win out in the rural areas. That's how the girl-scout cookie conspiracy guy from last year got in.


On the bright side neither of us is Montana, where the cattle barons have taken over and rigged things all the way down to their Work Comp policies so they can "pursue profits" easier.
 
2012-06-11 11:35:35 PM
www.jucoolimages.com

Feelin' irie mon
 
2012-06-11 11:36:28 PM
I take that back, a shiatload of this thread so far is made up of delusional people who have seen way to many movies.
 
2012-06-11 11:36:32 PM

bel4sucks: violentsalvation: If the police hit your house by mistake and you shoot at them you are going to have a couple hundred bullets flying at you. Still, I like the law. Get the f*cking address right you stupid pigs.

You've seen way too many movies.


you don't even have to shoot, just have a gun in your hands and they will put 60 bullets in you
 
2012-06-11 11:36:57 PM
I almost forgot to add that when you say "beer can" in an English accent it's the same as saying "bacon" in a Jamaican accent.
 
2012-06-11 11:37:01 PM
It's about goddamned time. Maybe this will help police stop overreaching their bounds.
 
2012-06-11 11:38:07 PM

violentsalvation: bel4sucks: violentsalvation: If the police hit your house by mistake and you shoot at them you are going to have a couple hundred bullets flying at you. Still, I like the law. Get the f*cking address right you stupid pigs.

You've seen way too many movies.

you don't even have to shoot, just have a gun in your hands and they will put 60 bullets in you


/wasn't the wrong address, but that is what would happen either way. They aren't suddenly going to realize they are in the wrong place when a different person than the warrant mentions is shooting at them.
 
2012-06-11 11:39:04 PM

BronyMedic: Guntram Shatterhand: Maybe we should stop funding police militarization. Seriously, what point is there to invading a home at night? Most cops will go on about how dangerous this threat to our freedoms really is, but how is that worse than power-hungry assholes playing soldier on our dime?

Please tell me how the police have access to Military equipment you can't purchase as a civilian, again?

And, please don't say because they carry M-4s or MP-5s on patrol. Because I can go down the street to the gunshop and buy one with a tax stamp.


Did you miss yesterdays thread?
 
2012-06-11 11:39:32 PM
i could side with someone shooting a cop breaking down the door in the middle of the night..and not yelling "police" at the top of their lungs as they come in...but just opening fire at the police when you KNOW its them, i have issue with this. You can't say "YOURE WARRANT IS ILLEGAL, and start busting caps, you're gonna get killed..but hey..if you feel jumpy..then leap. You might be right in the end...but you might still be dead.
 
2012-06-11 11:40:04 PM
As a Hoosier (when I am living stateside), I am ok with this.

The Indiana Supreme Court ruling was ridiculous - police could break into a house, without a proper warrant, and the homeowners just had to submit? Add into the mix the not-uncommon occurrence of home invaders dressing as police, and police officers using this ruling to go house to house with no probable cause (and yes, that Sheriff later said it was probably not the best idea, and he wouldn't do that after all - doesn't change the fact that some department would realize they could under the ruling, and would start)

All in all, this law simply forces the police to make sure they have a proper warrant and are going to the right place, and allows law-abiding residents to defend themselves if their home is invaded.
 
2012-06-11 11:40:26 PM

buckler: It's about goddamned time. Maybe this will help police stop overreaching their bounds.


Or they'll follow they're training and draw down on anyone that pulls a weapon on them.
 
2012-06-11 11:40:29 PM
Some cop once said "If you're not doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to worry about".

Goes both ways in the USA.
 
2012-06-11 11:40:32 PM
Cyno01: BronyMedic: Guntram Shatterhand: Maybe we should stop funding police militarization. Seriously, what point is there to invading a home at night? Most cops will go on about how dangerous this threat to our freedoms really is, but how is that worse than power-hungry assholes playing soldier on our dime?

Please tell me how the police have access to Military equipment you can't purchase as a civilian, again?

And, please don't say because they carry M-4s or MP-5s on patrol. Because I can go down the street to the gunshop and buy one with a tax stamp.

Did you miss yesterdays thread?


You never answered the question. These departments aren't getting Top Secret military hardware. They're not patrolling the streets in M2 Bradleys, or using Apachies for DUI Checkpoints.
 
2012-06-11 11:40:42 PM
I think I like this. While it obviously makes police work more difficult and dangerous, they don't have any right to go into a house without warning. I'd kill (or try) anyone who surprised me in my own home, especially if there wasn't anything going on to expect police action.

Yeah, it sucks that criminals will be able to get away with stuff -- have time to flush evidence, jump out the back, etc. But it is really important to err on protecting the rights of the law abiding citizens.
 
2012-06-11 11:40:59 PM
Good.

I mean, this won't do anything except give police more reason to murder innocent people (or people who don't deserve to be executed for whatever crimes they did commit), but at least now people do have the right to defend themselves.
 
2012-06-11 11:40:59 PM

Bit'O'Gristle: Even if you know the entry is illegal, and start shooting at the police..its a good chance that you're gonna get killed, or get someone in your family killed. If they are wrong, take them to court for kicking your door in. Shooting at them just welcomes a "hail of return gunfire" scenario.


While I agree with you: I think the issue might be more legal protection if the owner survives. There's been a few cases nationally where the police get the wrong address (or lie or get lied to by an informant for a drug raid on the address in question), get in a shoot out with the owner, the owner lives, and then is charged with murder/assault/attempted murder/etc.
 
2012-06-11 11:41:15 PM
 
2012-06-11 11:42:04 PM

low_dazzle: So if I don't call it Stand Your Ground, and just call it shooting people, that still sounds anti-cop to me.


You're terrible at this. Please stop before you hurt yourself.
 
2012-06-11 11:44:20 PM
Now the Indiana legislature needs to make a law that makes killing a civilian dog murder, the same way killing a police dog is murder.
 
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