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(Townhall)   Poll taxes actually allow people to view voting as a patriotic sacrifice rather than just another government handout   (townhall.com) divider line 314
    More: Fail, poll taxes, press releases, National Mall, Jim Crow  
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3621 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Jun 2012 at 5:34 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-11 09:56:43 PM
Man, that was kind of surreal, the article took a premise I generally agree with -- that voter ID is legitimate so long as the practical concerns are resolved (the state has to pay for a legitimate ID, for instance)-- and expressed it in such a stupid way that I'm still pounding my head on the damn desk.
 
2012-06-11 10:01:34 PM

Lord_Baull: Weird. I always viewed it as a right guaranteed to all American citizens by the Constitution.


If you can afford it.

/Just like the 2nd amendment.
/and the 1st amendment.
/and the 4th.
/and 5th
/etc...
 
2012-06-11 10:02:12 PM
The Republican wet dream: A $10M poll tax. 100% tax deductible, of course, but you've got to be able to put up the scratch.
 
2012-06-11 10:06:58 PM
What does a state id cost

Jesus H farking Christ on a god damned cracker. WTF is the problem. Get an ID and quit your farking biatching.
 
2012-06-11 10:10:28 PM

Arkanaut: Jackson Herring: extra-legal intimidation,

Extra-legal means really really legal, right?


Just like resign means to sign again.
 
2012-06-11 10:11:27 PM
So Republicans have an issue with voting being easy.

Not sure if stupid or really farking stupid.
 
2012-06-11 10:12:49 PM

WizardofToast: Can I have whatever Townhall is smoking?


Bath salts make you eat your neighbor's face.
 
2012-06-11 10:15:03 PM

Welfare Xmas: What does a state id cost

Jesus H farking Christ on a god damned cracker. WTF is the problem. Get an ID and quit your farking biatching.


What's wrong with offering it for free?

I'm fine with having people use ID's as long as they have easy access to them and they can get them at no cost.

I don't see how this is a radical proposal.
 
2012-06-11 10:15:34 PM

LasersHurt: soy_bomb: LasersHurt: soy_bomb: Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Tumunga: How do you tell if they're eligible?

There's this event called 'registering to vote,' though it seems you might not be famliar with it. You do vote, right?

Exactly, its not like fraudulent voter registration forms are ever submitted.

Submitted, but almost never accepted.

/Photo ID discriminates against the dearly departed...especially in Chicago
Using your argument, we go beyond the fraudulent to the invalid, dead and double registrations.

A study published earlier this year by the Pew Center on the States characterized America's voter registration system as "Inaccurate, Costly, and Inefficient."

Among its conclusions are that "approximately 24 million voter registrations in the U.S. are no longer valid or significantly inaccurate; more than 1.8 million deceased individuals are listed as voters; approximately 2.75 million people have registrations in more than one state."

Hey all that's required for identification is to be registered!

"My argument"? I didn't make any argument.


But now you're arguing that you have no argument. I demand facts in re your lack of facts.
 
2012-06-11 10:17:30 PM

Jim_Callahan: Man, that was kind of surreal, the article took a premise I generally agree with -- that voter ID is legitimate so long as the practical concerns are resolved (the state has to pay for a legitimate ID, for instance)-- and expressed it in such a stupid way that I'm still pounding my head on the damn desk.


You keep trying to fathom the Republican mindset in a rational way. I keep telling you it's just not possible. Now stop, or at least put a pillow on the desk before you get a concussion.
 
2012-06-11 10:17:35 PM

namatad: serial_crusher: OK, so how do we go about holding an election that doesn't tax anybody? Voting machines, full time employees at the registration office, teachers' salaries for the extra day they have to work when you close the school down on election day. That stuff all costs money. How would we go about funding that without taxes? I'd rather not rely on wealthy philanthropists to voluntarily donate money to a system unless they could rig it to benefit them.

meh
1) vote by mail
2) anyone without a register address would need to vote at local library and city halls
3) ballots are mailed out a month before the end of the election (midnight on tuesday in november for general elections)
4) for walk-ins, ballots are available on that same day

TADA
solves TONS of problems
1) if you didnt get mailed a ballot, you know in advance to walk-in
2) paper trail for recounts
3) no need for election judges, closing schools, voting booths, books, blah blah blah
4) helps reduce vote tampering (diebold, wisconsin, floriduh, chicago)
5) free return postage
6) no need for an ID in order to VOTE (still need to register, blah blah blah)


Um, you didn't actually cut that many costs. you've still got people handling that registration and counting stuff.
At 35 cents a letter (standard bulk mail rate. Let's assume the USPS operates at cost), you're looking at about $85 million to send out all those ballots initially, and up to twice that depending on how many people actually bother to vote. Unless you plan on staffing the USPS with volunteers who can surely be trusted not to tamper with any of those ballots they're carrying.
Also, get ready for a "waaaah, rich people have mailboxes right by their front doors, but poor people have to go to a community mailbox at the end of their apartment complex".
 
2012-06-11 10:17:58 PM

intelligent comment below: IrateShadow: It really bothers me that I have to repeat this as frequently as I do: We have THE LOWEST participation rate of all Eastern democracies. We should not be putting up any more barriers to voting.


Not to mention the least amounts of fraud. And yet conservatives complain and complain of massive voter fraud without any evidence.


In their minds, Democrat votes are synonymous with fraud - because what God-loving US citizen would ever vote for those Commie assholes?
 
2012-06-11 10:20:47 PM

I Like Bread: intelligent comment below: IrateShadow: It really bothers me that I have to repeat this as frequently as I do: We have THE LOWEST participation rate of all Eastern democracies. We should not be putting up any more barriers to voting.


Not to mention the least amounts of fraud. And yet conservatives complain and complain of massive voter fraud without any evidence.

In their minds, Democrat votes are synonymous with fraud - because what God-loving US citizen would ever vote for those Commie assholes?


The sad thing is that a lot of people on the right actually believe this.
 
2012-06-11 10:23:23 PM
Meh, I say we keep the system as it is and just allow people to donate at the voting site (or through the mail). This allows everyone to vote and provides a means for those in favor of a poll tax to go ahead and chip in a few bucks. Certainly, if they were given the option they would donate, much like they do on their tax returns.
 
2012-06-11 10:24:44 PM

Mrtraveler01: What's wrong with offering it for free?


What wrong with taking some responsibility for the maintenance of your rights? The most costly ID on that list is only a few dollars per year. Why does everybody have this attitude that they can't get through the day without somebody else paying for something they want?
 
2012-06-11 10:26:36 PM

PonceAlyosha: LasersHurt: soy_bomb: LasersHurt: soy_bomb: Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Tumunga: How do you tell if they're eligible?

There's this event called 'registering to vote,' though it seems you might not be famliar with it. You do vote, right?

Exactly, its not like fraudulent voter registration forms are ever submitted.

Submitted, but almost never accepted.

/Photo ID discriminates against the dearly departed...especially in Chicago
Using your argument, we go beyond the fraudulent to the invalid, dead and double registrations.

A study published earlier this year by the Pew Center on the States characterized America's voter registration system as "Inaccurate, Costly, and Inefficient."

Among its conclusions are that "approximately 24 million voter registrations in the U.S. are no longer valid or significantly inaccurate; more than 1.8 million deceased individuals are listed as voters; approximately 2.75 million people have registrations in more than one state."

Hey all that's required for identification is to be registered!

"My argument"? I didn't make any argument.

But now you're arguing that you have no argument. I demand facts in re your lack of facts.


Point of order, I have, in fact, no facts with which to back my fact lack.
 
2012-06-11 10:36:59 PM

Lord_Baull: Weird. I always viewed it as a right guaranteed to all American citizens by the Constitution.


unless you have the same name as a felon. then all bets are off.
 
2012-06-11 10:38:28 PM
this is ass backwards. we should be paying people to vote. instead of media corporations taking in all that revenue from political ads it should all go into a fund to be apis out equally amongst all who voted.
 
2012-06-11 10:39:15 PM

Hobodeluxe: this is ass backwards. we should be paying people to vote. instead of media corporations taking in all that revenue from political ads it should all go into a fund to be apis paid out equally amongst all who voted.

 
2012-06-11 10:39:46 PM
I'm Ok with this as long as the tax works like this:

5% of your net worth minus the median net worth to vote in national elections.
 
2012-06-11 10:42:01 PM

Babwa Wawa: That's the issue with Voter ID. You need to pay for the ID, that's a tax


SC was offering free ID and rides to the courthouse/DMV and there were still some in the media and on fark who suggested that gathering documents and going to the DMV once a decade to get your free ID is a poll tax and Jim Crow since it involves time.

Despite what the SCOTUS says about states not having to prove fraud in order to enact pro-active measures to identify voters, despite states issuing provisional ballots to those who lack ID, despite states giving rides to the DMV and issuing free ID cards, the Left has their minds made up that Voter ID is racist, misogynist, anti-latino, ageist, Jim crow and all of the above.
 
2012-06-11 10:44:01 PM

Welfare Xmas: Mrtraveler01: What's wrong with offering it for free?

What wrong with taking some responsibility for the maintenance of your rights? The most costly ID on that list is only a few dollars per year. Why does everybody have this attitude that they can't get through the day without somebody else paying for something they want?


Yes, in fact, all inalienable rights SHOULD have a price tag. What's the freedom of religion worth to you? Or being detained without charges? Or inreasonable search? How do we really know how much these rights are worth unless we let the market set a price?

I think we should get multi-Amendment discounts.
 
2012-06-11 10:47:53 PM

Welfare Xmas: Mrtraveler01: What's wrong with offering it for free?

What wrong with taking some responsibility for the maintenance of your rights? The most costly ID on that list is only a few dollars per year. Why does everybody have this attitude that they can't get through the day without somebody else paying for something they want?


This just highlights the absurdity of this argument.

Why should someone have to pay for something (regardless of how cheap it is) in order for them to vote?

What other Western-style democracy in the world does this?

That's why I say that if we're requiring people to get a state-issued ID. We sure as hell better not charge them for it.

So let me ask this for the right-wingers out there, why should people have to pay to vote?
 
2012-06-11 10:51:13 PM

Fluorescent Testicle: Craptastic: Face it, asshole, Mickey Mouse has never voted in an election, but naturalized citizen Juan Perez has been PREVENTED from voting because he shares a name with a felon.

Juan Perez isn't a white person's name, therefore Soy_Bomb doesn't care and most of the TeaPublican party is actively celebrating.

/It's like arguing with a brick wall.
//A particularly stupid, embarrassingly racist brick wall.


Yeah. I didn't notice who I was addressing, to be honest. I just typed out an honest, well-reasoned reply to some Soy_Bomb-level asshole on another website, only to discover that they required more personal info than I'm willing to share to publish my opinion. Fuggin' internet, man...
 
2012-06-11 11:07:04 PM
Another insightful round of deep thoughts from that bucket of vomit known as TownDerp.
 
2012-06-11 11:16:25 PM
FTFA: Black leaders do damage to our nation

The above quote is out of context. However, the actual line:

Black leaders do damage to our nation, and to our black citizens, to call requirements for a modicum of personal responsibility in order to vote racism.

seems to be so poorly phrased that it takes a while to get at the actual meaning. Maybe my reading comprehension skills need a tune-up? Or the editor needs to start paying more attention.
 
Kiz
2012-06-11 11:34:50 PM
1% of your annual income sounds about right. So Mitt Romney has to pay a million dollars to vote... Enough that he actually feels like he's doing something important. I'd pay about $1.5k and poor people would pay a dollar or so. Maybe just make it free for them, it would cost more than a buck to collect it.
 
2012-06-12 12:19:56 AM

Jim_Callahan: Man, that was kind of surreal, the article took a premise I generally agree with -- that voter ID is legitimate so long as the practical concerns are resolved (the state has to pay for a legitimate ID, for instance)-- and expressed it in such a stupid way that I'm still pounding my head on the damn desk.


And this is EXACTLY why that "study" from a couple months ago "proved" Republicans were better at predicting the positions of Democrats than vice versa. Because no matter how reasonable or extreme a Republican position starts, it goes through a rat-maze of crazy, resulting in crap that resembles the rants of the homeless guy with tissue boxes on his feet.
 
2012-06-12 12:40:04 AM
Did Thomas Sowell get a sex change?
 
2012-06-12 12:57:38 AM

you are a puppet: We should make it so only millionaires can vote. Also, you have to have inherited your millions.


Some pundits have already said that only homeowners should be allowed to vote.
 
2012-06-12 12:59:04 AM

Sgeo: FTFA: Black leaders do damage to our nation

The above quote is out of context. However, the actual line:

Black leaders do damage to our nation, and to our black citizens, to call requirements for a modicum of personal responsibility in order to vote racism.

seems to be so poorly phrased that it takes a while to get at the actual meaning. Maybe my reading comprehension skills need a tune-up? Or the editor needs to start paying more attention.


Like it matters. In the end there still the postulation that "black leaders do damage to our nation." Like the author knows jack sh*t about what she's talking about.
 
2012-06-12 01:05:42 AM
I love the argument "well we have to show ID at all these other places."

First, we SHOULD BE ANNOYED WITH THAT CRAP. Why has that become acceptable?
Second, as someone who worked in retail a decade ago, have you ever asked an elderly conservative person for their ID for some reason? They throw a f*cking fit more often than they say "oh, well I understand, thank you."
 
2012-06-12 01:19:18 AM

serial_crusher: namatad: serial_crusher: OK, so how do we go about holding an election that doesn't tax anybody? Voting machines, full time employees at the registration office, teachers' salaries for the extra day they have to work when you close the school down on election day. That stuff all costs money. How would we go about funding that without taxes? I'd rather not rely on wealthy philanthropists to voluntarily donate money to a system unless they could rig it to benefit them.

meh
1) vote by mail
2) anyone without a register address would need to vote at local library and city halls
3) ballots are mailed out a month before the end of the election (midnight on tuesday in november for general elections)
4) for walk-ins, ballots are available on that same day

TADA
solves TONS of problems
1) if you didnt get mailed a ballot, you know in advance to walk-in
2) paper trail for recounts
3) no need for election judges, closing schools, voting booths, books, blah blah blah
4) helps reduce vote tampering (diebold, wisconsin, floriduh, chicago)
5) free return postage
6) no need for an ID in order to VOTE (still need to register, blah blah blah)

Um, you didn't actually cut that many costs. you've still got people handling that registration and counting stuff.
At 35 cents a letter (standard bulk mail rate. Let's assume the USPS operates at cost), you're looking at about $85 million to send out all those ballots initially, and up to twice that depending on how many people actually bother to vote. Unless you plan on staffing the USPS with volunteers who can surely be trusted not to tamper with any of those ballots they're carrying.
Also, get ready for a "waaaah, rich people have mailboxes right by their front doors, but poor people have to go to a community mailbox at the end of their apartment complex".


I live in Oregon. Vote by mail is the easiest method of voting available. It's generally fraud-resistant, unless someone fills out ballots and has other registered voters sign their envelopes (or they are great at forging signatures and happen to steal other ballots). It encourages votes from EVERY demographic, as you have a good amount of time to vote and have various means by which you can cast said vote. Vote by mail has been nearly 30% less expensive, according to the former Secretary of State, versus polling stations.

Either drop a ballot into boxes at many government locations (ie: libraries) during business hours, or you can pay *gasp* for a stamp to mail it into the county election office. No line, no fuss, AND you have a couple weeks to drop off a ballot.
 
2012-06-12 01:23:37 AM
Literally, a MUCH bigger problem with vote by mail than the absurd idea that fraud takes place more easily (no evidence at all that this happens, except from crackpot farking loons like Bill Sizemore) is the fact that there ARE some chances that votes will be second-guessed (rejected, possibly) if a person, say, has drastic changes to their signature (due to hand injuries, a stroke, or whatever reason).

And the process is not all that difficult for one to obtain a replacement ballot, in case something bad does, in fact, happen (damaged or stolen in the mail... again, things that don't seem to be problems).
 
2012-06-12 02:03:42 AM
So the folks at Townhall want to bring back Jim Crow? Hardly a surprise.
 
2012-06-12 03:06:17 AM

Lord_Baull: Weird. I always viewed it as a right guaranteed to all American citizens by the Constitution.


Have you very little exposure to American history? It is worth reading about, because the US Constitution is a popular standard for modern democracies to judge their own.

Voting has never been a universal right in the USA. Even now, there are many elections where prisoners and people with criminal records may not vote, which not only disenfranchises people with criminal records, but is racist. Consider how conviction rates overlap with African and Latino heritage, and effectively the USA appears to simply not be a nation that has guaranteed voting rights for non-whites. Also, women have been voting in the USA for less than 100 years.

The reasons for American citizens to still consider their right to vote as universal, at least in their popular culture, are complicated and fascinating.

/the more you know
 
2012-06-12 03:51:30 AM
What.

The f*ck.

Gods damn this f*cked up country.

I has a sad AND a pissed off.
 
2012-06-12 04:22:21 AM

Jackson Herring: After the ability to vote was extended to all races by the enactment of the Fifteenth Amendment, many Southern states enacted poll tax laws as a means of restricting eligible voters; such laws often included a grandfather clause, which allowed any adult male whose father or grandfather had voted in a specific year prior to the abolition of slavery to vote without paying the tax. These laws, along with unfairly implemented literacy tests and extra-legal intimidation,[1] achieved the desired effect of disfranchising African-American and Native American voters, as well as poor whites.


Everything old is new again.
 
2012-06-12 04:24:45 AM

jjorsett: Cyclometh: holy crap, are these assholes actually advocating poll taxes?

Uh, no, which you'd know if you bothered to click the link. I'm a third thru the comments and it's apparent that NOT ONE of the responders read the piece and know what Star Parker really wrote. Subby's headline fits some mental template you all have and so you just assume that it's true. No wonder the left is losing elections: it's broken with reality. I'm not going to spoon feed you and tell you what she actually said, but I suggest you read it and figure out the trap Subby laid for you (unless perhaps he's as delusional as you are and believes it himself) before you embarrass yourselves more than you already have.

[Link][i49.tinypic.com image 504x360]


Challenge accepted!

She provides one page full of flowery bullshiat designed to show us how eloquent she is in her prose which truly only shows how pretentious and superfluous her thoughts are.

She chastises a man she admits marched during a time when dogs were sicced on children and women, hoses were turned on American citizens that were not allowed to eat in certain restaurants, and blacks, in particular, were abused and demoted to second-class. This man marched and bled for her very right to write whatever meaningless drivel she wants, but for her to question his motives is asinine.

She asks the audience to remember that freedom isn't free and we need to return to a time when we were more free. She calls voting a privilege though the various movements by women and minorities to secure that "privilege" would suggest it is indeed a right and not, in fact, a privilege.

So I now pose to you, what were you reading? And more to the point, would you like a dictionary?
 
2012-06-12 04:29:27 AM

puffy999: I love the argument "well we have to show ID at all these other places."

First, we SHOULD BE ANNOYED WITH THAT CRAP. Why has that become acceptable?
Second, as someone who worked in retail a decade ago, have you ever asked an elderly conservative person for their ID for some reason? They throw a f*cking fit more often than they say "oh, well I understand, thank you."


Well, there's always this.

You should have to provide ID to prove:

1. You're old enough to buy booze
2. You're old enough to buy a gun
3. You're licensed to drive if stopped by a cop for a traffic offense

Other than that, I can't really think of any valid reason why anyone should be peering at my ID.
 
2012-06-12 05:10:39 AM
images.sodahead.com
s/Wiley/Parker/
 
2012-06-12 05:32:54 AM

Weaver95: Craptastic: So this is the United States of America that some people think is OK?

Can someone please defend this line of thinking? Can someone make the point that fewer voting citizens is better for our republic? I'd like to understand your point, because right now it seems like you don't like for "the poors" to have any say.

hey, less people voting and concentrating more power into the hands of a rich and uncaring elite is a perfect way to kick off massive amounts of street violence and eventually destabilize your country. so if you WANTED to destroy remakeyour country then its a great plan!


Fixed--not because Weaver's excellent observation is wrong, but because this more accurately reflects the reactionary right's eventual, stated goal. They've been quietly preparing for it since the late 90s or so, and massive, widespread unrest and violence because of mass disenfranchisement and economic inequality gives them the perfect pretext.
 
2012-06-12 05:56:43 AM
Idiot.

Seriously,

Snapper Carr: To their credit, they've actually walked their original idea back a bit.

/still stupid and illegal
//but making progress


Well, It would never be ALL property owners - you'd need to have some minimum amount of real estate in clear title.

The Good news: Most corporations will become voters.
The Bad news : Almost all citizens will lose their right to vote.
 
2012-06-12 06:30:18 AM

Jackson Herring: After the ability to vote was extended to all races by the enactment of the Fifteenth Amendment, many Southern states enacted poll tax laws as a means of restricting eligible voters; such laws often included a grandfather clause, which allowed any adult male whose father or grandfather had voted in a specific year prior to the abolition of slavery to vote without paying the tax. These laws, along with unfairly implemented literacy tests and extra-legal intimidation,[1] achieved the desired effect of disfranchising African-American and Native American voters, as well as poor whites.

Go fark yourself, TownHall


www.cartoonstock.com
 
2012-06-12 06:50:03 AM
Not getting the whole Democratic Republic thing, are they?

I've come to expect that from the plutocrats in this country.
 
2012-06-12 07:28:13 AM

SilentStrider: So taxes are patriotic sacrifice now?


Only when they help fark over the blacks.
 
2012-06-12 07:28:25 AM
Wah! Wah! My friends might not vote for my handout!
 
2012-06-12 07:28:43 AM

o5iiawah: SC was offering free ID and rides to the courthouse/DMV and there were still some in the media and on fark who suggested that gathering documents and going to the DMV once a decade to get your free ID is a poll tax and Jim Crow since it involves time.

Despite what the SCOTUS says about states not having to prove fraud in order to enact pro-active measures to identify voters, despite states issuing provisional ballots to those who lack ID, despite states giving rides to the DMV and issuing free ID cards, the Left has their minds made up that Voter ID is racist, misogynist, anti-latino, ageist, Jim crow and all of the above.


What's it like in your universe where every single person on a certain side of an issue thinks and is motivated in the exact same manner?
 
2012-06-12 08:09:24 AM
The statement in the headline is true as far as it goes, but the concept has already been ruined for everybody by some douchebag lawmakers in the Jim Crow era. Let it go, because man, it's gone.
 
2012-06-12 08:10:23 AM
What the fark I don't know what is
 
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