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(USA Today)   Spain's labor unions "have enjoyed a social prestige and power that was not seen anywhere else in Europe." Yet Spain's unemployment rate is over 24%, highest in the eurozone. Can you explain that?   (usatoday.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Spain, Europe, Francisco Franco, Spanish Civil War, protectionist, public good  
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1261 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Jun 2012 at 4:04 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2012-06-10 10:18:08 PM  
76 votes:
Yeah, it's because the ECB is demanding harsh austerity measures from a government that, prior to the 2007 crash caused by assholes building a securities bubble, had a balanced budget and was paying down their national debt.

Oh, gosh subby, was that not the reality-based answer that you were expecting? Should I talk about what a Commie Paul Krugman is, and say LOLStimufail, or some other anti-Keynesian bullshiat? Because no.

In the meantime, Germany is doing pretty damned good, thanks to a mix of fiscal sensibility, employer subsidies, and broad-based government investment in the private economy. See also: Sweden. Or don't, subby, because you might encounter the real f*cking world, and the Hayekian dildo you've been riding so hard would break.
2012-06-11 01:12:16 AM  
3 votes:
It's almost as if Smitty decided to look at one tiny aspect of the nation, and correlate that with the results, while simultaneous ignoring all the OTHER factors that impacted the economy. Almost as if taking an actual look, as opposed to a tiny slice, would be a bit too hard.

Right out of the gate, Smitty got the explanation, so can we please stop trying to make half assed points out a tiny bit of the data and grow the f*ck up? Seriously. This is old. It's old when it's economists who know better try to do it to score points for the folks whose policies they're trying to justify--knowing full well that if things blow here because of similar half assed policies, their butts are going to be overseas so fast, that the Concord pilots are going to say, "Whuddafuxx was THAT?"

That isn't going to stop the folks who like to trot out talking points, instead of facts, that isn't going to stop the Idiot Brigade from repeating half assed lies, and the disingenuous who like to play mouth breathers on Fark to assuage their Mommy and Daddy issues to get some sort of stillborn revenge that the real targets of their internalized and twisted up angst could never actually accomplish because it would be far too much like strapping on a pair and putting on the Big Pants and at least pretending like their an adult.

Are there real issues? Yup. And the distraction that the Idiot Brigade is chittering on like the f*cking Lobstrosities piped up Dad-a-chum? Dum-a-chum? Ded-a-chek? Did-a-chick? certainly doesn't address these real issues. It's just so much mud in the water, and when folks pay enough to put out this much smoke, what in the Holy Motherf*cking Hells do you think might be hiding behind all that effort?

This country has to grow the f*ck up sometime, and soon, and listening to guys who are spinning you fantasies that might as well involve a 24" cheeseburger impaled on your lap while telling you how handsome and smart you are, even with all that disgusting grease and mayonnaise dripping into your chairs, that isn't really helping...
2012-06-11 04:39:34 AM  
2 votes:

randomjsa: the idea that your wage should be set higher than your work is actually worth so you can have a "living wage" and "health benefits" is insane


So if your job can be done in China for $1/day, you feel you should only be paid that amount? I'm not saying that everyone should be paid the same regardless of job description, but it would be nice for a family to be able to live in this country on one income. You know, like we used to.
2012-06-11 04:27:28 AM  
2 votes:
Wikipedia lists twenty-two different dog breeds "originating in Spain." Yet the traditional Spanish tortilla de patatas contains 0% dog, lowest of any omelette in the Eurozone (tie). Can you explain that?
2012-06-11 04:19:51 AM  
2 votes:

randomjsa: You cannot pay people more than they deliver in terms of profit for a company.


...unless they're C-level.
2012-06-11 02:25:18 PM  
1 vote:

Mentat: MyRandomName: Why is there such a misunderstanding of keynes on the left? It is like liberals see "increased government spending" and stop reading his theory. His theory calls for cut backs.during good times, never happens, and stimulus only at the deepest part of recession, not continued government spending during.the rebuild. What liberals and Europe are doing is not keynesian. They are simply continuously spending.

Didn't Bill Clinton leave us with a budget surplus?


If not, it was the closest we've been in a long freakin' time. And then the Republicans cut taxes, weakened regulations, stuck their dick in Medicare, and had us invade two Middle Eastern countries.

So, because Obama didn't fix things fast enough, let's elect Republicans who want to cut taxes, weaken regulations, stick their dick in Medicare, and invade another Middle Eastern country, That'll fix everything!
2012-06-11 10:04:47 AM  
1 vote:
I don't think I've ever seen a subby destroyed that quickly and completely before. Kudos.
2012-06-11 07:49:59 AM  
1 vote:
I don't see what those two topics in the headline have to do with each other. Neither causation nor correlation.
US (no unions to speak of across huge areas of different businesses) = high unemployment
Germany (worker representation on the board of every company, very strong unions) = very low unemployment
Spain = well you know
2012-06-11 07:01:53 AM  
1 vote:

randomjsa: You cannot pay people more than they deliver in terms of profit for a company.


Does this go for investors as well??
2012-06-11 06:47:40 AM  
1 vote:

NobleHam: Chimperror2:
The real world is that the Chinese workers get paid a lot less than US and European workers and until the stability in China makes the risk worse, capital will continue to flee. The more socialist and "Keynesian" a country is, the faster it's economy will collapse. The bubble today is that Spain an Greece are riskier places to invest in factories than China.

They are not farked because of unions and socialism, they are only farked faster because of unions.

Governments cannot spend their way to prosperity. Capitalism is egalitarian and until the standard of living in China and the west come be on par, the west is fooling themselves about being able to "stimulate" the economy. All they will do is increase orders in china, not create jobs in the west. In the end, that debt has to be paid and it goes to one place.

BTW, if you saw the article on all the warships being sent to APAC, it was to make western companies raise the risk level of investing in those countries. That's hardball economics.

First off, you do realize that China is arguably the most Keynesian country out there, right? Their government has stimulated their economy with massive spending in construction, infrastructure, etc. Most companies in China are still at least partially government owned. We can argue the wisdom of that for China, if you want, but it sort of makes your "Keynes bad because China" point moot.

Furthermore, if you're right then austerity is still a bad policy. Government may not be able to make up for the loss of capital to China, but stimulus spending can provide a buffer until things are equalized. While private capital flees, the government can make up some of the difference.

Lastly, "that debt" does not go only to one place. China hardly owns more of our debt than Japan, and Americans still own most of our public debt.


I just took the train from tianjin to shenyang. At a modest clip of 119 mph.
In fact there is a thousands year old saying in China that if you want prosperity you gotta fix the roads first. You do realise, Mr. Chimperror, that China's heavy investment in education essentially subsidizes any US industry that needs smart people.
The current popular narrative that somehow things will be more egalitarian if we allow our domestc markets to dry up is pure onanism. You cant grow withou investment in people and the things that sustain them. Once the US has been exhausted as a "human resource," you will see the wisdom of ignoring the demand side.
2012-06-11 06:27:25 AM  
1 vote:

kmmontandon: Yeah, it's because the ECB is demanding harsh austerity measures from a government that, prior to the 2007 crash caused by assholes building a securities bubble, had a balanced budget and was paying down their national debt.

Oh, gosh subby, was that not the reality-based answer that you were expecting? Should I talk about what a Commie Paul Krugman is, and say LOLStimufail, or some other anti-Keynesian bullshiat? Because no.

In the meantime, Germany is doing pretty damned good, thanks to a mix of fiscal sensibility, employer subsidies, and broad-based government investment in the private economy. See also: Sweden. Or don't, subby, because you might encounter the real f*cking world, and the Hayekian dildo you've been riding so hard would break.


Austerity worked pretty damn well for Canada in the late 90s and Estonia has almost exclusively run its free economy and as a result, is in a better shape to weather the debt crisis than its Balkan counterparts.

You know, 10 years ago it used to be that the whole of Europe would come up in arguments as to why the US is getting it wrong. I heard so much about how the retirement age was 45 and how you could take 2 months off a year and there were countless "free" public services. Now it seems that Sweden and Germany are the only countries left which the Keynesians can hump as success stories. Too bad that Sweden has an economy that is 70% state-directed and is propped up by the fact that it owns massive oil, fishing, timber and gas resources and Germany is trying to hold the line on the PIIGS states reforming their social structures so they can pay off all their debts or at least keep their heads above water.


I seem to recall an article around here a little while ago that Espana's push towards green jobs cost 2.5 private jobs for every public-backed green job that it created and that was somehow ignored by the Keynes crowd. Funny

Shadowknight: Yeah, I live here in Spain, and pretty much what this guy said. Austerity measures combined with no real main export (olives and sherry, I guess) and only seasonal tourism has led to a lot of unemployment.


Then it sounds like Spain needs more industry, less government workers that cripple the private sector, reduced public benefits and a higher retirement age.
2012-06-11 06:26:36 AM  
1 vote:
Scandinavian countries have the strongest unions in the world. They also have strong and stable economies. Perhaps there are some other factors.
2012-06-11 06:15:19 AM  
1 vote:
Oh, it's attack unions day again?
2012-06-11 05:33:49 AM  
1 vote:

Chimperror2:
The real world is that the Chinese workers get paid a lot less than US and European workers and until the stability in China makes the risk worse, capital will continue to flee. The more socialist and "Keynesian" a country is, the faster it's economy will collapse. The bubble today is that Spain an Greece are riskier places to invest in factories than China.

They are not farked because of unions and socialism, they are only farked faster because of unions.

Governments cannot spend their way to prosperity. Capitalism is egalitarian and until the standard of living in China and the west come be on par, the west is fooling themselves about being able to "stimulate" the economy. All they will do is increase orders in china, not create jobs in the west. In the end, that debt has to be paid and it goes to one place.

BTW, if you saw the article on all the warships being sent to APAC, it was to make western companies raise the risk level of investing in those countries. That's hardball economics.


First off, you do realize that China is arguably the most Keynesian country out there, right? Their government has stimulated their economy with massive spending in construction, infrastructure, etc. Most companies in China are still at least partially government owned. We can argue the wisdom of that for China, if you want, but it sort of makes your "Keynes bad because China" point moot.

Furthermore, if you're right then austerity is still a bad policy. Government may not be able to make up for the loss of capital to China, but stimulus spending can provide a buffer until things are equalized. While private capital flees, the government can make up some of the difference.

Lastly, "that debt" does not go only to one place. China hardly owns more of our debt than Japan, and Americans still own most of our public debt.
2012-06-11 04:57:42 AM  
1 vote:
randomjsa


Counterpoint: Supermarket.
If the floors at a supermarket are filthy, people won't be as tempted to go there and buy stuff. The supermarket loses a farkton of money. Therefore, we should be paying the people who keep the floor clean a lot more than they're getting now, because their job is worth a farkton of money.

There are few jobs in the world that aren't actually worth a lot to a company, they just want to keep the profit margins as wide as possible, no matter what the cost. Fark, think of teachers. Their job is priceless, how much should we pay them?

The only thing I agree with you is the healthcare thing...because I'm in favor of single-payer.
2012-06-11 04:52:02 AM  
1 vote:

whidbey: I don't get it. Is this thread some kind of trollbait or something?

Am I supposed to want Romney to be President now or, what?


You're supposed to want Romney to be President because Zer0B0ng0 isn't using his magical blah powers to fix the economy instantly, therefore we need more of the trickle down bullshiat that caused the crash in the first place.
2012-06-11 04:21:09 AM  
1 vote:

kmmontandon: Yeah, it's because the ECB is demanding harsh austerity measures


Hey now, it's a proven fact that austerity is great for an economy! Sure, it's been tried dozens of times and has never worked once, but dammit, the theories the Austrian economists cooked up say it should work, and who are you gonna believe, them or that lying biatch reality?
2012-06-11 04:13:47 AM  
1 vote:
The way to get people off the government teat is to attach more people to the government teat.

Makes perfect sense.
2012-06-11 12:58:36 AM  
1 vote:
The powerful unions in Germany are doing way better.
2012-06-11 12:52:42 AM  
1 vote:
Thats a wrap!

/turns off lights
2012-06-11 12:33:16 AM  
1 vote:
*slow claps* well, looks like this thread is done.
2012-06-11 12:05:05 AM  
1 vote:

kmmontandon: Or don't, subby, because you might encounter the real f*cking world, and the Hayekian dildo you've been riding so hard would break.


Jesus H. Christ. That's beautiful!
 
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