Wow, apparently numerically typing fifteen plus = boobies?

Ed Finnerty: Louisiana_Sitar_Club: rebelyell2006: Louisiana_Sitar_Club: Ed Finnerty: Because how can long facial hair possibly be a problem when surrounded by extreme heat and flames?

Revek: Facial hair is a real problem with rescue breathers and filter mask. Its really a good way to get yourself killed if you don't have a good seal in a toxic environment.

The police must not do the usual stuff where I come from.

The mods might have done a stealth headline change, as I thought it said "NYFD" before I read the article.

People are still posting about fire, even after I read the headline with a "P" and commented. Maybe the mods changed it to P, then back to F, then back to P again. Yeah. I bet that's it.

I think it's clear who is behind this campaign of confusion.

[anongallery.org image 333x500]

Absolutely!
(I'll grab any lifeline at all at this point.)

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: Absolutely!
(I'll grab any lifeline at all at this point.)

I hear you. I could've sworn it was about a firefighting job earlier.

Then again, I'm pretty baked this morning.

Pvt Joker: Was it this guy? Link (slightly NSFW)

As in: "Your employer may or may not frown upon you viewing a woman's bare breasts on their computer using their internet connection"? Are we in Europe? (Wishes we had Europe's workplace policies.)

His attorney, Nathan Lewin, said the police department knew when Litzman applied that he would not trim his beard.

And as Br'er Possum was dying from the venom, he said, "Why did you bite me?" And the snake said "You knew I was a snake when you put me in your pocket."

This argument is stupid. The rule is facial hair for religious reasons can be 1mm. He knew the rules, and I can only assume, he was told the rules, before he applied to be an officer. Additionally, not all orthodox Jews have beards, it isn't a total necessity. If it is the community that he lives in that will look down on him for shaving (which means he has a whole other set of problems) then he shouldn't have applied in the first place. I know plenty of orthodox people who are clean shaven, and they don't get any flack from anyone else in the community. He created a problem for himself when there should never have been one in the first place.

/seriously, rules still apply to you, dude, you're not special.

tukatz: Mock26: If the Army is willing to allow Sikhs to have beards then why not the New York Police Department?


Because the Army is not the New York Police Department.

Why are rules so hard for people to understand? No matter where you look, companies/organizations have rules and policies. Key rule here: If you don't like or can't conform to what they require of you, don't apply.

There are different policies for different departments. If this guy is so determined to snub the NYPD rules, then perhaps he should seek out a dept. that will allow beards instead of starting a career by immediately rejecting the very rules he first agreed to...

FOOTNOTE: The Army also uses a different type of protective mask that varies greatly from what most police/fire departments use. The Army's version is usable with some degree of facial hair, even though Soldiers are required to keep a clean-shaven appearance (for the most part) in accordance with a regulation commonly known as AR 670-1

I'm with the NYPD on this one, though. If you're aware of what the rules and policies state before you sign the paper, maybe you need to think long and hard about who and what you are before you reach for the pen. Think about it, how many vegans do you know working at your neighborhood McDonald's?

jayphat: Wow, apparently numerically typing fifteen plus = boobies?

I guess it looks like that thing you're not allowed to say in l33t 5p34k?

tukatz: Mock26: If the Army is willing to allow Sikhs to have beards then why not the New York Police Department?


Because the Army is not the New York Police Department.

Why are rules so hard for people to understand? No matter where you look, companies/organizations have rules and policies. Key rule here: If you don't like or can't conform to what they require of you, don't apply.

There are different policies for different departments. If this guy is so determined to snub the NYPD rules, then perhaps he should seek out a dept. that will allow beards instead of starting a career by immediately rejecting the very rules he first agreed to...

Well no shiat, Sherlock. Of course the Army is not the New York Police Department. The letters not being the same kind of gives it away.

But, companies/organizations are constantly making exceptions for religious reasons. And this is certainly not some run of the mill recruit who simply wants a beard. If anything, having an Orthodox Jewish Police Officer could be a huge benefit for the NYPD. It would have been a huge public relations boost to announce his graduation and acceptance as a Police Officer, and he could have been a valuable liaison with the Orthodox community.

FreakinB: According to TFA this guy's Hasidic, which is the beard/black suit/payot (the curly sideburns)/hardest of the hardcore Jews.

Okay, so this gentleman actively lives a life that excludes him from all sorts of other jobs and activities. Why target the FDNY about one specific policy related to safety?

Mock26: tukatz: Mock26: If the Army is willing to allow Sikhs to have beards then why not the New York Police Department?


Because the Army is not the New York Police Department.

Why are rules so hard for people to understand? No matter where you look, companies/organizations have rules and policies. Key rule here: If you don't like or can't conform to what they require of you, don't apply.

There are different policies for different departments. If this guy is so determined to snub the NYPD rules, then perhaps he should seek out a dept. that will allow beards instead of starting a career by immediately rejecting the very rules he first agreed to...

Well no shiat, Sherlock. Of course the Army is not the New York Police Department. The letters not being the same kind of gives it away.

But, companies/organizations are constantly making exceptions for religious reasons. And this is certainly not some run of the mill recruit who simply wants a beard. If anything, having an Orthodox Jewish Police Officer could be a huge benefit for the NYPD. It would have been a huge public relations boost to announce his graduation and acceptance as a Police Officer, and he could have been a valuable liaison with the Orthodox community.

Yeah, and then when he got killed because some dude on bath salts used his beard as a convenient handhold while slamming his head into the pavement, the Orthodox community can turn on the NYPD and blame them for putting him in harm's way.

Mock26: It would have been a huge public relations boost to announce his graduation and acceptance as a Police Officer,

[citation needed]

and he could have been a valuable liaison with the Orthodox community.

The existing "liaison" to the Orthodox community in NYC is mainly in charge of enforcing the tacit understanding that Orthodox child victims of sexual abuse are not entitled to the protections of the law and that Orthodox child molesters are entitled to more protection of their illegal and disgusting behavior than anyone else.

Isn't your silly superstitious imaginary guilt imprisonment enough for everyone?

/f*cking religitards
//why ask people to pray to a god that gave someone cancer?
///it's an insult to ask atheists to pray (and I was just asked and had to defend myself)
//in order for me to 'pray' i would have to stop 'thinking rationally and logically and succumb to your self-delusion,' it would be like me asking you to THINK

danielscissorhands: headline =

NYPD fires Orthodox Jewish recruit because they seder policy does not allow long facial hair

Do I REALLY have to be the first grammar Nazi here? Or was that headline supposed to be read in a really strong Jewish accent?

"...they seder [say their] policy does not allow long facial hair."

urban.derelict: it's an insult to ask atheists to pray (and I was just asked and had to defend myself)

When in a group setting (like at a dedication ceremony), I will just bow my head and stare at my shoes for a few minutes. Here in Texas, I'd rather avoid standing out in a crowd.

Revek: Facial hair is a real problem with rescue breathers and filter mask. Its really a good way to get yourself killed if you don't have a good seal in a toxic environment.

Exactly. You can never pass a fit test for a breather.

vudukungfu: The Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals found that, because black males suffer from pseudofolliculitis barbae more than Caucasian males, Domino's Pizza's no-beard policy violated the 1991 Civil Rights Act, Title VII.[8]

And they're wrong based on multiple other courts finding that beard policies are an accommodation and not an antidiscrimination. There's a difference.

For an interesting comparision, you can read this small tidbit.

Last job I interviewed for asked if I would be willing to shave my mustache if needed. It was a job requirement. Didn't have to, just if I had to use a breathing apparatus, which I never did.

LavenderWolf: danielscissorhands: headline =

NYPD fires Orthodox Jewish recruit because they seder policy does not allow long facial hair

Do I REALLY have to be the first grammar Nazi here? Or was that headline supposed to be read in a really strong Jewish accent?

"...they seder [say their] policy does not allow long facial hair."

Yes, figured it out, thanks. I had just woken up when I read the headline. lol.

Egodram:
I'm with the NYPD on this one, though. If you're aware of what the rules and policies state before you sign the paper, maybe you need to think long and hard about who and what you are before you reach for the pen. Think about it, how many vegans do you know working at your neighborhood McDonald's?

Ay, so we're agreed on the rules: no blacks and no Jews.

rudemix: FreakinB: Wulfman: Would somebody please explain the grammar of the headline? I don't get it.

danielscissorhands: Do I REALLY have to be the first grammar Nazi here? Or was that headline supposed to be read in a really strong Jewish accent?

Not subby, but I think "seder" is supposed to be read as "said their." It's somewhat of a stretch.

I was thinking 'see there'.

It's pronounced 'say-der' so I read it as 'say their.'

tukatz: ExcaliburPrime111: Unless the clean-shaven policy has a legitimate purpose (e.g. safety concern), then the recruit's religious requirements should be reasonably accommodated.



Disagree. Lets turn it around and ask "Why does he HAVE to have a beard for his religion?". If he didn't have a beard and could still practice his religion, then why doesn't the religion have exceptions? Does his god reject him for not having facial hair? That would be a pretty sad religion.



Dessert religions are sad like that. They're more about adhering to the social codes of the clan. And they're enforced to the death, my friend. Make no mistake, you're dealing with people for whom a single whisper about your appearance in the community can be the same as suicide.

nickerj1: For an interesting comparision, you can

Forget it. I went ouside to play.

Coming on a Bicycle: tukatz: ExcaliburPrime111: Unless the clean-shaven policy has a legitimate purpose (e.g. safety concern), then the recruit's religious requirements should be reasonably accommodated.



Disagree. Lets turn it around and ask "Why does he HAVE to have a beard for his religion?". If he didn't have a beard and could still practice his religion, then why doesn't the religion have exceptions? Does his god reject him for not having facial hair? That would be a pretty sad religion.



Dessert religions are sad like that. They're more about adhering to the social codes of the clan. And they're enforced to the death, my friend. Make no mistake, you're dealing with people for whom a single whisper about your appearance in the community can be the same as suicide.

Do they worship cake? I'm converting.

weirdneighbour: Against God to cut your hair?? Where do they come up with this stuff?

Many religions start with the "Our deity is an anal-retentive asshole that we love so much we have to do all sorts of irrational shiat just because we love him so much"

Then there's the grovelling before him for favors because he'd MUCH rather you wear the special hat or underwear than actually do some real good in the world. It's also easier, takes less effort and resources to do "god-pleasing" symbolic stuff than say helping the poor and sick. And other sheep view you as being pious and therefore good people, too)

But then it ends up being the "we are in this special group of people and we do these things because we are better than you"

Day_Old_Dutchie: weirdneighbour: Against God to cut your hair?? Where do they come up with this stuff?

Many religions start with the "Our deity is an anal-retentive asshole that we love so much we have to do all sorts of irrational shiat just because we love him so much"

Then there's the grovelling before him for favors because he'd MUCH rather you wear the special hat or underwear than actually do some real good in the world. It's also easier, takes less effort and resources to do "god-pleasing" symbolic stuff than say helping the poor and sick. And other sheep view you as being pious and therefore good people, too)

But then it ends up being the "we are in this special group of people and we do these things because we are better than you"

The 'dox do what they do because they believe their primary duty on this earth is to Follow The Goddam Rules. God is scripture, and their life is spent pursuing ever closer conformity to scripture.

Yes, one must help others and do good (mitzvot). But Job 1 is follow the rules, consult the rules, discuss the rules, follow the rules more closely, discuss the rules in and out of any possible context, derive rules that follow from the rules, and follow the rules that follow from the rules.

I work at an Orthodox Jewish institution (and am not Jewish), so I'm getting a kick out of this article, etc...

But there are plenty of Orthodox Jewish men who work here and don't have beards. I'm guessing it's the "Hasidic" part that requires the beard.

I was raised in a dessert religion. Every Sunday, we'd have Tira-MASS-u

+



=



Good luck at that next riot, Snotty McSnotterton

tukatz: ExcaliburPrime111: Unless the clean-shaven policy has a legitimate purpose (e.g. safety concern), then the recruit's religious requirements should be reasonably accommodated.



Disagree. Lets turn it around and ask "Why does he HAVE to have a beard for his religion?". If he didn't have a beard and could still practice his religion, then why doesn't the religion have exceptions? Does his god reject him for not having facial hair? That would be a pretty sad religion.

This is about facial hair. They're not telling him that he has to lose a kidney or chop off a finger. He just has to look presentable, be able to wear protective gear (mask) properly and be able to follow the rules set before him on his job contract. This means shaving his face.

The NYPD currently has about 34,500 uniformed officers. They have all signed the same papers upon employment and know that they can be fired if they don't. Coming in as a new recruit and stating that you're special and want to do things your own way is a really good way of getting a spot in the unemployment line.

But legally, that's generally not the standard- ExcaliburPrime111's is. Although the approach varies among jurisdictions, the analysis typically looks like:

1) Does the requirement have a disparate impact on members of a group - a no facial hair requirement does have a disparate impact in that it excludes men who do not shave for religious reasons

2) is it a bona fide job requirement? That has to be actually related to the performance of duties. For example, requirements that police officers be a certain height in order to project authority have been struck down, whereas requirements that pilots be a certain height because that's how the controls are set up have been upheld. With respect to the beard, if it's really about safety, it's a bona fide requirement - probably not so much if it's about "looking presentable" (an Orthodox Jew is not "unpresentable" by the standards of that community by virtue of having a beard.)

3) If the restriction is a bona fide job requirement, can the person be reasonably accommodated? Moving someone to another position is usually reasonable; entirely redesigning the cockpit of a plane likely wouldn't be.

As for whether he'd have to shave if other Orthodox Jews do, that's unlikely. Courts and tribunals don't like to get into discussions of whether a practice is actually required by a person's religion - they'd have one rabbi saying it's ok to shave and another saying no, and who is the court to determine which one more accurately describes the tenets of the faith? Instead, they look at whether a person sincerely believes the requirement is an essential part of their faith.

None of this may be the law in NY and I'm too lazy to look it up, but he may have a case. Even if the short beard is a bona fide job requirement for safety reasons, there are probably positions available where it's not an issue.

Also, the NYPD may be missing an opportunity. This guy could probably be more effective in Orthodox neighborhoods than an officer who shaves.

Unless we're going to go in the direction of not accommodating religious beliefs at all - fine with me, but forget Christmas as a common day off, etc - or banning outward displays of religious belief by public servants, like the French do, the bona fide requirement/ reasonable accommodation standard should prevail. Otherwise, you can discriminate insidiously by putting in place requirements with disparate impact (hmm. We don't want to say "no Asians", so we'll just require recruits to be 5'10". Even though we're hiring accountants.)

BarkingUnicorn: That's a mighty short beard that has never been cut. Must be a recent convert.


I got the impression he shaved to enter training and probably shaved more than once, but then decided to go for it and claim religious exemption.

/too soon, should have ingrained himself more...

Chinchillazilla: Yeah, and then when he got killed because some dude on bath salts used his beard as a convenient handhold while slamming his head into the pavement, the Orthodox community can turn on the NYPD and blame them for putting him in harm's way.

Bullshiat. Somebody's going to grab a 2mm beard? Maybe we should require all policemen to be bald so their hair can't be a convienient handhold. Even a long beard makes a lousy handhold- the leverage is wrong.

If there is some actual, physical reason that the beard needs to come off, the Hasidic community won't have a problem with it. You can shave your beard if you're going to have jaw surgery, for example. But if it's just "We want everybody to look like Christians, and if you don't look like a Christian we don't want you", then forget it. That's a horribly stupid rule that should get changed.

Chinchillazilla: Mock26: tukatz: Mock26: If the Army is willing to allow Sikhs to have beards then why not the New York Police Department?


Because the Army is not the New York Police Department.

Why are rules so hard for people to understand? No matter where you look, companies/organizations have rules and policies. Key rule here: If you don't like or can't conform to what they require of you, don't apply.

There are different policies for different departments. If this guy is so determined to snub the NYPD rules, then perhaps he should seek out a dept. that will allow beards instead of starting a career by immediately rejecting the very rules he first agreed to...

Well no shiat, Sherlock. Of course the Army is not the New York Police Department. The letters not being the same kind of gives it away.

But, companies/organizations are constantly making exceptions for religious reasons. And this is certainly not some run of the mill recruit who simply wants a beard. If anything, having an Orthodox Jewish Police Officer could be a huge benefit for the NYPD. It would have been a huge public relations boost to announce his graduation and acceptance as a Police Officer, and he could have been a valuable liaison with the Orthodox community.

Yeah, and then when he got killed because some dude on bath salts used his beard as a convenient handhold while slamming his head into the pavement, the Orthodox community can turn on the NYPD and blame them for putting him in harm's way.

That is some might fine fear mongering there, Lou. Mighty fine indeed.

Personally, I find facial hair extremely unattractive. Except on cats.

So if I'm a religious nudist I don't have to wear the uniform?

BronyMedic: Revek: Facial hair is a real problem with rescue breathers and filter mask. Its really a good way to get yourself killed if you don't have a good seal in a toxic environment.

This.

Every department I'm aware of has a clean-shaven policy when you're on duty. Mustaches aren't even allowed at some.

When I part of a fire/search/rescue team, mustaches were allowed but they could not extend past the corner of the mouth.

I always wondered what would happen if I showed up at work with a Hitler 'stach.

farkityfarker: Personally, I find facial hair extremely unattractive. Except on cats.

You find cats attractive?

It is extremely unlikely to ever happen, but I would love to see a Supreme Court ruling that held that "any accommodations made on religious grounds, reasonable or otherwise, by a government agency are an unconstitutional "endorsement" of that religion."


/ I have a deram!

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: So... You apply for a job where its reasonable to expect you may have to use your weapon, thus violating a farking commandment, but cutting your facial hair is a deal breaker. Religious people are farking retarded, Jews especially.

Using a weapon violates no commandment seeing as how not all killing is murder (which is what the commandment actually says). Shaving with a razor on the other hand, is explicitly forbidden.
It ain't the jews' fault you christos still use a half-arsed translation of our crap for a life philosophy.

In short: "Pfeh!"