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(The New York Times)   I have seen the future and it cannot find work   (nytimes.com) divider line 43
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14662 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jun 2012 at 10:09 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-06-10 09:25:52 AM  
16 votes:
It's going to be an interesting few decades, and by "interesting" I think we'll revisit the 70's my father told me about.

We have absolutely no idea how we're going to make this Service Economy as profitable as union wages were for several decades. Not even trying to make this a union thread, just saying. We've got to figure out how to create sustainable jobs that pay well and I've not heard anyone with any kind of realistic idea for doing so. Tax cuts and Green Jobs are nice buzz words, but we have a systemic employment problem and we're too scared to fully address the issue of people working longer, younger people having to wait longer to move in or up, and what the f*ck do we do with high school educated and college drop-out workers?

Technology and automation have relegated many of them to $7/hr jobs and that pay about the same as collecting any kind of state or federal assistance. Hell, even more if you deduct for child care or similar costs.

Look... We put our heads together when we needed to and developed the atom bomb and the Apollo program. If we put that same kind of effort, get our best labor economists, industrialists, bankers together for a NO BS honest assessment of where we are and where we need to go, we can fix this. Executive compensation is going to have to trickle back down to increase workers salaries so they can purchase more and spur hiring in the lower-tier jobs. We're going to have to do this with the cunning power of math. More people with a little more money creating more demand. That payroll tax cut is a great example, but we have to add more things to it, and offer more incentives to spur spending.

We have two choices. Government spending or consumer spending. We have to increase one or both. We can't cut and save our way out of a decline. Nor should we solely focus on government spending, especially with a yearly $1 trillion revenue shortfall.

We're all going to have to compromise on whatever strongly held principles we have on taxes, spending, welfare and all of that. This whole do nothing congress sh*t has got to stop. We've got to be adults here and honestly sit down with some real numbers and figure out the best way forward. We can't have a command economy, but we can and should guide that economy in a way that best serves all of our citizens while not encroaching too much on the entrepreneurial spirit.

We all want America to be successful and for these people not to need any federal help (Even early SS benefits). It's going to take an act of god for us to work together to make that happen. I'm not very optimistic, but I've not given up hope.
2012-06-10 10:21:45 AM  
6 votes:
So its above people that are over 60 to group together and get a house and help each other out? I am not moving out of my starter house and paying this off. Its not a bad size three bedrooms and that will keep my costs down. Also havingg kids at an older age helps as well. When im 60 my youngest will be 20 and we can pool together like they used to. I got the rooms and can cook and do your laundry. You pay some rent and come and go as you please. its time to go back to the ways that worked for years. Extended families are going to have to have a comeback.
2012-06-10 10:42:16 AM  
5 votes:
I'm in my sixties, and have just been laid off, and am getting a kick ..etc

Yes, I had a retirement plan, but it relied on a few more years of work.

Whoever created the 401K idea should have been hung from the nearest lamp post.
2012-06-10 10:23:56 AM  
4 votes:

moefuggenbrew: It's Bush's fault


Depends on which Bush you're talking about. Back in 1988, Bush Sr. said "I would like to see this nation's wealth in fewer, righter, tighter hands".
No one could reasonably contend that that has not been achieved.
2012-06-10 04:27:22 PM  
3 votes:
Realistically, I figure things are only going to get worse in my lifetime. I figure there will probably be a few swings of marginally better, maybe a couple of years at a time, within an overall trend of worse.

You can blame people, you can say you have no sympathy for them, you can Monday morning quarterback everything they did or didn't do.

I took the required economics class in high school.

In college, I took macro economics, micro economics, and national income analysis. Georgia Tech's a pretty decent school. I'm pretty damned smart--my test scores say so, anyway.

I've been a political junkie. I've been a member of both parties, each time convinced that party was "right." I've listened to both parties explain why their view of how to run a national and world economy is "right." Or "best," if you will.
I've read Fortune and Forbes. Read Hayek and Austrians. Read Keynesians. Watched business reports. Owned stock. Bought into an IPO, made a 900% profit and got out before the dot.bomb. Held a DRIP. And more.

And you know what? Economics is "magic" to me. I really don't understand why the economy at home stopped working, and I don't understand why it doesn't just start back up. Oh, I have heard many of the various reasons and rationalizations for how and why people say it stopped working and how and why they say it's not starting back and what they're projecting and why they say they're projecting it.

None of their projections and economic theories account for the fact that people systematically steal on a large scale and get away with it. Nobody's economic theories account for it. Nobody's economic theories that I've seen account for geopolitical thumbs that are on the scale for non-economic reasons. Nobody's economic theories that I've seen account for large scale deception--the interests of people moving large amounts of money and goods in wanting what they want, and getting what they want, but giving the public appearance of wanting and doing something entirely different.

I have a friend who's a for real rocket scientist who's writing a textbook on rocket science, and his goal for this textbook is to include the real world things that just about all the existing textbooks neglect, but that you do have to engineer for--like the way fuel sloshes within the rocket when something or other happens. Apparently there are a bunch of these things, and there are just enough known (known to the people on the job) aspects of the real world that have accumulated that more systematic (okay, updated) documentation of issues in the textbooks is (at least in his opinion) an idea whose time has come.

Anyway.

I think things are going to get worse because nobody has any really good answers on how to deal with economics, and I don't think there necessarily are any good answers.

I think perhaps the key is that capitalism breaks down when ordinary people doing ordinary labor are not protected from having their savings or investments systematically stolen by con men.

Con men are not clever businessmen, they're not job creators, they're not successful competitors in capitalism. They're just sociopathic thieves. It doesn't matter if they're sociopathic thieves who hire minions---only a complete idiot would classify hiring a minion as creating a job. Or shall we sing praises to the latest Don of the Gambini family when he expands the business by hiring a new hit man?

Right now, nobody in the system has anyplace in the world to put your money that the aristocrats of old money or the Machiavellis of New Money can't get to it to steal it from you. No matter who you are. There is no such thing as financial security. There's nowhere to go.

And that's disastrous for investment.

Historically, when that happens, people stock up on food that keeps for a long time, plant backyard gardens, stuff cash and coin under their mattresses, try to keep their roofs from leaking too bad, and try to block the drafts coming in under the door. And they huddle up, and they den up, and they hide---and they just hope they don't get noticed.

And if you'll look, that's exactly what people are doing. You have people staying holed up in their basements and leaving their houses as little as possible. Cash is king. People are raising farking chickens in the suburbs. People are moving in together with roommates or family members--usually out of necessity, but they're tending to stay huddled together. They're not chafing at being all huddled together like they would have before times turned bad.

I'm seeing more and more people with mental health problems who not only won't leave their house or apartment, maybe they won't hardly leave their couch. More and more cases of hoarding. People are trying to burrow into a little hole and pull the hole in after them. "Don't notice me. If they notice the other guy and not me, maybe I'll be okay."

Sure, there are still plenty of attention whores. But there are a lot of the opposite. And a lot of paradoxically anonymous attention whores. "Hey! Look at me! Look at me! (But don't know who I am.)"
2012-06-10 11:22:14 AM  
3 votes:

NewportBarGuy: We're all going to have to compromise on whatever strongly held principles we have on taxes, spending, welfare and all of that. This whole do nothing congress sh*t has got to stop. We've got to be adults here and honestly sit down with some real numbers and figure out the best way forward. We can't have a command economy, but we can and should guide that economy in a way that best serves all of our citizens while not encroaching too much on the entrepreneurial spirit.

We all want America to be successful and for these people not to need any federal help (Even early SS benefits). It's going to take an act of god for us to work together to make that happen. I'm not very optimistic, but I've not given up hope.


Adam Davidson (from NPR's Planet Money) is one of many who have been looking at this issue for a while now and many of the PM podcasts have focused on it, and he wrote an excellent article in the Atlantic about it. And while it's clearly a simplified list, he's boiled it down to three things...

Fix the deficit: We're in a mess that was created by people effectively double-dipping (using tomorrow's money to pay for today's spending, but still expecting tomorrow's money to be there). Rather than fixing the fundamentals, we're trimming around the edges. Making the USGS cut its budget 20% isn't going to do anything; we have to get defense and entitlements under control, and make sure the programs we decide to keep are properly funded.

Fix health care: We're in a system which is incentivized not to reduce costs or improve the efficacy of care/services, but rather to rack up as many services (fees) as possible and pass the costs on to the next person. Consumers who are covered have little incentive to forego unnecessary services since they're not really paying for it, and too many others are shut out.

So that addresses money going out, but that doesn't really help the people you mention. The only way to do that is...

Fix education: When you break down the current unemployment numbers, there is a huge difference in the rates among educated and uneducated workers. The days of being able to get a good life-long job with an 8th-grade education are gone, and they're never coming back no matter what policies people might dream up. We need to stop trying to compete on making goods where the only production variable left is labor costs, we're going to lose that battle every time. With a large pool of skilled workers from which to draw, we can compete and succeed making things others can't (at least not nearly as well). Our trade and other policies have put us in a bind; we should have been dumping a boatload of resources and attention into education since the 80s, when the writing was clearly on the wall.

In the long run, education is what's going to provide the resources to get out of the spending dilemma (and hopefully reduce the number of people having to draw from those programs). We need to dramatically change our attitude toward education among the working class, and our attitude toward hard work among the educated class. Education doesn't end with high school, and it's not just for nerds. People need to stop taking pride in their ignorance and we need to flip the dynamic of the dumb jocks being cool and the smart kids being ridiculed. But we also need to instill a good work (as in hands-on work) ethic among the educated. Being educated AND actually making things, as opposed to making money simply by manipulating numbers, can be very rewarding.

Straightforward, yes... but by no means "easy". It's going to take a lot of people having to work a little harder, maybe pay a little more and compromise on a few things. But we do that all the time in life so it's not insurmountable if we can somehow manage to convince people of the tangible benefits of doing so.
2012-06-10 04:45:17 PM  
2 votes:
This is where Rush Limbaugh gets it all wrong on capitalism, by the way. He thinks capitalism is doing fine if go-getters can get rich. He's dead wrong.

Capitalism is deathly ill when ordinary people can't save money over the years without having it stolen by con men.

Capitalism isn't about Joe Talent being born poor and through hard work and boot straps getting rich like Mitt Romney.

Capitalism is about Jane Average being born average and through average work and average prudence, Jane invests in a broad portfolio of average risk stocks all her life, gets an average rate of return, has an average amount of ownership in a portfolio that averaged out with dollar cost averaging when she retires and lives an average retirement. Capitalism is about Jane Average plays by the rules and diversifies and playing by the rules works to get an average rate of return.

The whole point of capitalism is that the average person can survive modestly by being average---he doesn't lose horribly and go down in flames.

And you can't just look at all those people who got robbed of their savings by bad corporate choices and say, "Well, that's capitalism, there's always risk in investing, that's the way the system works, if you don't understand that you shouldn't buy stock." You can't just look at those people and say, "Too bad, so sad, buh-bye."

Because a fundamentally broken system, and making it so Jane Average cannot afford to put her retirement savings in any equities ever, ever, again, or in any bonds, or anywhere pretty much---there is noplace Jane can put her money--is a disaster for capitalism as a whole. It is an unmitigated disaster for the system as a whole to take a, "Too bad, you lose" attitude towards Jane Average.

But that's exactly what we've done. And I don't see the market economy system recovering from that betrayal in my lifetime.
2012-06-10 03:03:12 PM  
2 votes:

Hermione_Granger: Better times are ahead, I hope.


Yes, but I believe it's going to get a lot worse first. I know alarmists have been saying this for decades, but this time it's for real: The robots are coming for your jobs. It took a lot longer than the experts thought, but I follow that industry and in the past 5 years we hit the point where, for a frightening variety of jobs, robots are now cheaper than human workers.

Google's self-driving cars will begin replacing taxis shortly. McDonald's already has a semi-automated restaurant that requires only 2 employees per shift opening in Europe. FoxConn last year signed a contract to buy 1 million industrial robots...because on a large order like that the price per robot was actually CHEAPER THAN CHINESE WORKERS! A high-tech chip-making factory in Texas employed 400, until it was remodeled. Now it has higher output but only employs around 40. Even the engineers who design and build the robots are being replaced.

We're all going to have to adjust to a world where having a job is no longer the primary way people live. I have no idea how that's going to work economically, but by the time unemployment hits 50% or so (20 years, maybe?), we'll have to come up with something. That many Americans aren't going to sit quietly and watch their children starve. That might work in North Korea, but we're armed and won't stand for it.

But after that painful and perhaps violent transition, yes I think life will be better.
2012-06-10 12:02:36 PM  
2 votes:
45 year old here. 20 years of experience working in IT. Started as a tech, ended as a manager. Unemployed for 4 years after the industry went splat in the 00's. Last year I thought wtf? I have a degree, I'm in good shape. I have experience that younger people have yet to gain. So, I went and wrote my PATI, WCT, and ran my PREP. Failed the PREP, as I couldn't make the 6.5 required on the beat test. So, I trained my ass off for 12 weeks, bumped up my VO2 max, and made the grade next time round. Went and sailed through my BPAD, vision and hearing. And was accepted as a police officer. Long story short. You can make yourself new if you try hard enough. Don't give up. You're only half way there.
2012-06-10 11:29:23 AM  
2 votes:
Stuipd woman still has a cellphone and satelite TV. Need a job? Here's a clue: try working at Target or Burger King. They're both regularly hiring. Pays just fine until you can find something better. Making $64k as an administrator? Biatch, you're overpaid. And how did you get to be 62, making $64k/year, and have no assets to your name? Woman is just starting to get in touch with reality.
2012-06-10 10:52:14 AM  
2 votes:
Extended families are going to have to have a comeback.

You're way behind the trend.

First it was me and my ex. We moved in with my mom. But black folks are always the last hired and first fired. The black families were doubling up - adult children moving back home. We could have started a club: Black folks who got "down sized" and had to move back home.

It took another three years and the crash of 2008 before shiat really got bad for white folks and now there isn't a single family on this block, white, black or any shade in between that doesn't have a multi-generational household.

Not a single one.

I told my ex two years ago that I wanted to break up, but we couldn't afford to. We had to save up, wait for my retraining, and for both of us to get relatively stable jobs before he was finally able to get an apartment of his own last month.

I still help him out with food and gas money because times are still tough and he's just getting on his feet. In exchange, he's gonna do the same for me when I move out next year and we both help our daughter with her expenses at college and do house and yard work for my mom so she doesn't have to pay anyone.

We've had to work harder together to live apart than we ever did to stay together.

Sadly, it was my idea to work it out like this and I got the idea after reading an article about how couples who couldn't afford to break up managed during the Depression.

Better times are ahead, I hope.
2012-06-10 10:15:18 AM  
2 votes:

NewportBarGuy: We're all going to have to compromise on whatever strongly held principles we have on taxes


The only people who don't have to compromise at all are the entire farking problem. Crazy how that works, huh?
2012-06-11 10:11:43 AM  
1 votes:

Ishidan: StoneColdAtheist: My wife and I provided the capital
Highlighted very important part that the "Oh just start your own one-man business!" dumbasses keep forgetting.

SCA, a question. 6 years ago was 2006, before the 2008 financial crisis.

Could you get a business loan these days if you were a self-described "bored-off-my-ass retiree that wants to start my own business"?

You could, because you had a house to put up as collateral, and savings, and a retirement fund which represented a solid income stream independent of the results of your attempt at entrepreneurship?

Okay, strip those away. You want a loan...to go into business...the failure of this business will mean your total ruin, and the bank having no way to recoup.

Still can?


In my case I never considered a loan because I expressly did not want to put myself in the risk situation you so accurately describe. To start our business we invested several hundred dollars in tools and supplies and started in our converted garage, growing the business as we went. The only significant out-of-pocket expense was our first CNC machine, but had I waited another year I could have bought it from retained earnings.

But that's not my point. Notice that I specified that people should work for others when they need to. I'm really talking to young people of modest means here, those starting out in life. Working for others in the early years is going to be axiomatic for most. Moreover, it provides instant cash, vital training and work experience, contacts, potential customers, etc.

The bigger point is that trusting your lot in life to a government or corporate job for 40 years, followed by a cushy retirement is not going to be a reliable option for many in future. Certainly nothing like it was for my parent's generation, and to a lesser degree, mine. The dreaded "DMV worker" is a classic example. To save money California is computerizing as many functions as possible there so customers can do their business via the web. Other government functions that traditionally required a 'warm body' will be automated, as well.

Likewise, a lifetime of working low level jobs for local businesses will not get one very far. For most people to get ahead, you have to OWN the business, be it a high-end CNC prototyping shop or Joe's Plumbing.

As usual, the education system is a generation behind the times. Their current thrust is that "everyone should go to college". Nonsense. Half the people are dumber than average. Of the other half, if you aren't in the top half of THAT half, the state college BA in Communications you get is just going to leave you in debt. That doesn't mean those not academically inclined or talented can't enjoy a productive and satisfying life.

Of my four brothers, two didn't finish high school. One went to work in construction, and within 10 years had learned the basics and passed his contractor's exam. He built his own business to a comfortable level; lives a middle class lifestyle, and sent his two daughters to university. The other drifted in the army, a series of construction jobs, and finally commercial fishing. Now he's a captain earning $150k+ a year working 5-7 months a year, and golfing the rest of the time. His kids are grown with their own successful careers.

I'm just trying to reinforce the lessons many are pointing out here. The post-WW2 endless boom has run its course, and we're back to the model of lifelong struggle. Make the best of it.
2012-06-11 01:32:01 AM  
1 votes:

Diogenes The Cynic:

I once went to a party for graduating social workers, and they just sat there, joking (lamenting) about how no jobs for them existed. Not one of them could figure out how to use their education outside of the context it was provided for them. Not one of them considered some type of self employment. They just sat there talking about the lack of "jobs" aw if "jobs" were a thing.


It is a "thing". Look, some of us (well, most of us) don't want or need to be entrepreneurs or businesspeople... they just want to do what they do. Whether that's scientific research, drawing pictures, making animation, taking care of kids and the elderly, driving trucks, teaching elementary school or any one of countless jobs I could name, that is what they are good at. There are those of us who revel in the bullsh*t of running a business, and I say more power to them... but that isn't everyone.

I had a freelance graphics business for awhile, and it sucked sweaty sasquatch sack. Sure I could set my own hours and rates and all that happy sh*t, but between contracts and hunting people down for payments and constantly funding new clients and advertising and customer changes and billing and tax forms and all the other crap that came with the job, it left me only a tiny fraction of my day to do what I was in the business to do in the first place... art.

I got to the point where I started to hate even being near the computer, even to look at my e-mail and facebook.... it was then I knew I had to quit. I went to work for a company that produced e-learning software for the military, and my stress levels have been cut a thousand percent. I go to work, I do what's needed, and at the end of the day I get in my car and LEAVE WORK BEHIND until the next day. Can't do that if you want to be "mr. businessman".

Your party of social workers obviously got into their major because they wanted to help people, not run a business. We just want to do what we do.
2012-06-10 11:32:49 PM  
1 votes:
I'm with Julie Cochrane with a lot of what she posted above.

Still gonna post though.

I'll say that I am pessimistic about whats going to happen to this country in the future. Our political system is deeply entrenched in cronyism, capitalism isn't being allowed to flourish, and the general atmosphere is hostile to success. Its frustrating to see our national economy, essentially a Lamborghini with a rev-limiter.

For one thing, we have protectionist policies that do nothing except hurt us. If you've read Ricardo, you would see why. If it costs less to make something abroad than at home, we should shut down our domestic production of whatever that product is, and concentrate at what were good at. One example I can think of is the tariffs we put on steel way back in the day. It kept union steelworkers employed for longer than it should have made sense, but it caused American automotive production to become more expensive, which in turn led to less American cars being less competitive financially.

We also have a culture that is economically illiterate. People believe that stimulus spending can work, when they should know that it can't. Not only that, but it just goes to line the pockets of the few at the expense of many. They're causing inflation, which hurts everybody, makes businesses more skittish about long term investments, and forces the government to issue bonds that pay interest (which we have to pay taxes to cover later). Those bonds are terrible. Its money being held by institutions that are too unimaginative to make real investments that would help the economy.

I once went to a party for graduating social workers, and they just sat there, joking (lamenting) about how no jobs for them existed. Not one of them could figure out how to use their education outside of the context it was provided for them. Not one of them considered some type of self employment. They just sat there talking about the lack of "jobs" aw if "jobs" were a thing. It was frustrating to watch.

Then there's the corporate culture. Stocks are great for providing liquidity, but they come at a price. The owners of the company has to pay for a board and CEO whose interests are not necessarily aligned with their shareholders, or the future value of the company. Carl Icahn has a few pretty thorough essays on his website on why corporate governance is filled with flaws.

Then we have a massive, bloated government. They cut billions from a budget and praise themselves for it, even though what we really need is permanent government cuts to the tune of a few trillions for the conceivable future. What do we have military bases in the Philippines for? Do we think the Spanish are coming back to get them? Why are we in Germany, Korea,Iceland, or Japan for? What does it do for us? The USSR isn't going to attack us. Social security needs to be cut. Out. We don't need an alphabet soup either. They're (the ATF, DEA, etc.) more of a liability than anything. We can cut down on the number of prisoners we have too, and still maintain the level of security we already have. Cut out all the fat, and the taxes needed for them, and the money thats being spent unproductively will go towards more productive ends.

I could go on and on, but I know its not going to do any good. People who are ideologically committed to the maintenance of this system would rather have everyone become progressively poorer than make changes for the better.
2012-06-10 08:09:12 PM  
1 votes:
One of the problems with high achievement people is they develop an, "If I can do it, anybody can," mentality.

Or, "Anybody can do it, if you're just follow these basic ground rules: here they are."

The problem with the first idea is that average people are average. And there may be times in the world that are very hard, so hard that average people can't play by the rules and get by. But that doesn't make those times okay, and that doesn't make those average people the authors of their own misfortune. It just means that you're living in a time and place that's much harder than average.

The problem with the second idea is that there are a whole lot of people giving out basic ground rules, the basic ground rules contradict each other, and the average person only has average abilities with which to sort out what should work and how to work it. Average people not having superhuman self-discipline doesn't make them the authors of their own misfortune, either. Again, some times are tougher than average. Some times and places are easier than average.

Generally speaking, relative to all times and places throughout history, this time and place is easier than average for most places across much of the known world. It is amazingly easier than average for almost anyone born in the US or who somehow makes their way into the US.

However, relative to the American Dream and for white folks since the Great Depression, this is a significantly tougher than average time.

For most of Western Europe, relative to post-WWII standards, this is a significantly tougher than average time.

So if the relatively privileged average people in those relatively privileged places aren't doing nearly as well economically as people demographically like them did in the same places in easier times----well, duh.

It's not the rats, it's the maze.
2012-06-10 05:57:12 PM  
1 votes:

Delay: A Fark poster, Julie Cochrane, in this thread points out why average Americans are adverse to 401K plans and savings plans. Look upthread.


Are you serious? Americans don't save because they love to spend, there are plenty of other investment options besides 401k's and banks.
2012-06-10 05:38:38 PM  
1 votes:

Julie Cochrane: DrewCurtisJr: Julie Cochrane: The whole point of capitalism is that the average person can survive modestly by being average---he doesn't lose horribly and go down in flames.

Capitalism doesn't have a point.

Good point.


I'm with you on your wall of text/point. Everyone wants to believe we are living in a Rocky movie where your only limitation is you. "Get up Rock!" Problem is, there are multiple interests actively trying to keep you down.

The CEO/wealthy/politician class is so widely reviled now because they are multi-generational. Henry Ford's grandson has no skin in the game, he's always been wealthy and always will be. I live in Wal-Mart land and get to see first hand Sam's spoiled grandchildren. They contribute nothing to society and live off the backs of the poor.

So in short... until average Joe can make a decent wage performing honest work, place his money into a savings account earning more than .01% interest, and have a fair shot at the "American Dream", I have no problem requiring incomes of over $1million taxed at 50% over that amount. If you want to fleece the workforce, pay the price.
2012-06-10 03:32:52 PM  
1 votes:
maybe it's time to admit that when you give an American job to a latin american worker an equivalent job doesn't spring up through spontaneous combustion somewhere else in this country.

maybe it is time to admit that jobs are finite resources.

maybe it is time to admit that the law of supply and demand affects the labor market like it would any other market, and that flooding the labor market with millions and millions of foreign workers from backwards nations who consequently are willing to take substantially less than American workers isn't the ticket to prosperity.
2012-06-10 01:37:42 PM  
1 votes:

indarwinsshadow: So, I went and wrote my PATI, WCT, and ran my PREP. Failed the PREP, as I couldn't make the 6.5 required on the beat test. So, I trained my ass off for 12 weeks, bumped up my VO2 max, and made the grade next time round. Went and sailed through my BPAD, vision and hearing.


Are people supposed to know what those initials stand for?
2012-06-10 01:19:19 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: WhippingBoy: I've known a number of women like this. Middle-aged, single, moderate paying middle-management jobs. No real financial plan.
They spent most of their late 30's and 40's "living the good life". Two cruises every year, weekend trips to Vegas, etc.
I'm sorry, but I just don't feel sorry for them.

The problem is that it can happen to anyone without regard to history. Better to give the benefit of the doubt to her and end the economic sabotage by business.

/You see a turtle on its back
//But you are not helping
///Why?


In a field one summer's day a grasshopper was hopping about, chirping and singing to its heart's content. A group of ants walked by, grunting as they struggled to carry plump kernels of corn.

"Where are you going with those heavy things?" asked the grasshopper.

Without stopping, the first ant replied, "To our ant hill. This is the third kernel I've delivered today."

"Why not come and sing with me," teased the grasshopper, "instead of working so hard?"

"We are helping to store food for the winter," said the ant, "and think you should do the same."

"Winter is far away and it is a glorious day to play," sang the grasshopper.

But the ants went on their way and continued their hard work.

The weather soon turned cold. All the food lying in the field was covered with a thick white blanket of snow that even the grasshopper could not dig through. Soon the grasshopper found itself dying of hunger.

He staggered to the ants' hill and saw them handing out corn from the stores they had collected in the summer. He begged them for something to eat.

"What!" cried the ants in surprise, "haven't you stored anything away for the winter? What in the world were you doing all last summer?"

"I didn't have time to store any food," complained the grasshopper; "I was so busy playing music that before I knew it the summer was gone."

The ants shook their heads in disgust, turned their backs on the grasshopper and went on with their work.
2012-06-10 12:32:28 PM  
1 votes:
Ah fark, where making it into Harvard after being abandoned by your parents is met with derision, but earning more the median household income for years and not saving enough for retirement will get you loads of support. Makes perfect sense.

The amount of sympathy for stupid people on this site is ridiculous.
2012-06-10 12:22:31 PM  
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: FTA:

I read the article. You know, I almost felt sorry for her, but at this point, fark off. Us thirty-somethings are waiting around in crap entry-level jobs and can't get promoted because you damn Boomers think you're so "productive" that you won't bow out and retire most of you are whiny self-entitled wanna-bes who are not nearly as important as you think you are.


I ONLY consider +50 people for hiring. Why? I avoid the above tiresome crap when interviewing them.
2012-06-10 12:10:36 PM  
1 votes:
You wanna good business idea? Tattoo removal clinic.

We're reaching the point where all those "non-conformists" who said that "they would never work for a company that didn't accept their tattoos" would very much like to work for those companies. Or any company, for that matter.
2012-06-10 12:03:17 PM  
1 votes:

atomic-age: valkore: lohphat: Citation please?

I can't find any official source, and the earliest hit on Google is from countercurrents.org:

Then in 1992, when asked what Iran-Contra was really all about, George I replied that it was done for "...the continuous consolidation of money and power into higher, tighter and righter hands."

So if this is the actual quote, it's not even the same message.

It seems more sinister to me if it was made regarding Iran-Contra.


The upward redistribution of wealth was always an intrinsic feature of neoconservative policy. It's not some sneaky, machiavellian plot - it is a sincerely held philosophical belief - that society's wealth is safer and better off in the hands of the elite who are best at accumulating it. It's like a secular version of the "Prosperity Gospel"
2012-06-10 11:44:52 AM  
1 votes:
FTA:
She is discouraged by what she sees as youth-obsessed employers. "We're already has-beens, which is so sad," Ms. Keany said. "Some of us are still pretty productive."

I read the article. You know, I almost felt sorry for her, but at this point, fark off. Us thirty-somethings are waiting around in crap entry-level jobs and can't get promoted because you damn Boomers think you're so "productive" that you won't bow out and retire.

It's not my fault that you failed to save for retirement (she went through her savings and retirement in a few years???). I hope you enjoyed the lifestyle that "not saving" let you enjoy. Now enjoy living in your trailer and eating dog food.
2012-06-10 11:32:32 AM  
1 votes:
So, lemme get this straight: A tiny fraction of the 60+ generation has to deal with what 90+ percent of the 20-35 crowd has to deal with, and it's a news article.

Fark off, boomers. Eat a bag of dicks and die...
2012-06-10 11:22:55 AM  
1 votes:

jso2897: moefuggenbrew: It's Bush's fault

Depends on which Bush you're talking about. Back in 1988, Bush Sr. said "I would like to see this nation's wealth in fewer, righter, tighter hands".
No one could reasonably contend that that has not been achieved.


Citation please?
2012-06-10 11:22:07 AM  
1 votes:

attention span of a retarded fruit fly: So its above people that are over 60 to group together and get a house and help each other out? I am not moving out of my starter house and paying this off. Its not a bad size three bedrooms and that will keep my costs down. Also havingg kids at an older age helps as well. When im 60 my youngest will be 20 and we can pool together like they used to. I got the rooms and can cook and do your laundry. You pay some rent and come and go as you please. its time to go back to the ways that worked for years. Extended families are going to have to have a comeback.


I really like this concept, but I like my son, worked/ing real hard to raise him right.

What if you hate your family? Do you just adopt other family-less folks who you get on with?

I also think this would teach future generations to be less selfish and more community minded as they will have to learn to share space and resources.
2012-06-10 11:19:55 AM  
1 votes:

Bontesla: @NewportBarGuy: I think you're right. So, financially, I need to have approximately 2.5 million in savings and investments in order to retire on an income of $40,000 a year. . . If I want to retire at a reasonable age.

Based on my current stock portfolio, this means I need to set aside more than $7,000 a year.

This is getting ridiculous. Not only are employers rarely providing retirement plans or matching 401k contributions, they're also withholding raises more often.

Unfortunately, my 401k rests entirely on my ability to foresee the future in order to avoid the next Enron disaster. 2011 was the first time I saw significant growth in my portfolio since the recession and it's been turning an impressive profit thus far . . . But relying on a 401k or Roth as a retirement income is a stupid idea.

Apparently, so is buying international debt at times.

We're in serious trouble.


Yeah, it's a shame that we may not get rewarded for our frugality with free money any more.

In a finite world there is going to be a day when the growth stops. When that happens all our growth-based economic tricks are going to break down.
2012-06-10 11:15:03 AM  
1 votes:

One Bad Apple: wambu: moefuggenbrew: It's Bush's fault

Pubes never hurt anyone.

They'll poke your eye out


You're doing it wrong.
2012-06-10 11:06:22 AM  
1 votes:
All I can say is, I've been there, done that, and have paid for the crappy tee shirt. Horrible. I think about how my grandma lived-very little Social Security money but her small house was paid off and she managed ok. Nowadays that's nowhere near the reality. If the old man and I don't watch ourselves, we'll be homeless when we retire-if we retire but he does a physical job and will eventually have to move to another field and me, I'm an office drone who even in my late 30's is finding it difficult to keep up and compete with the kids out there. We won't be doomed because we've been smart and have planned (and live in an itty bitty house in da 'hood, which we love) but, we'll be lucky if we can make it without losing our hard fought for freedom and peace by the time he's retirement age and I won't be too far behind. We're both lucky to have jobs at our ages-I see kids all the time in and out of my office and some of them are making more money than I am. It's scary and we're trying to stay aggressive in our middle age to ensure we have jobs and are hireable well into our 60s. We hope. Really what I hope for is the hipsterization of my neighborhood in the next 15 years so we can sell this place and buy a loft/condo downtown. It has happened before and will probably happen again, knowing how Denver is.
2012-06-10 11:05:27 AM  
1 votes:

KimNorth: "Clare Keany lives in a tiny mobile home in California, barely getting by on little more than $1,082 a month from Social Security"

Tiny my azz that there is a double wide! What more does she want? She had a nice crib, beautiful weather, all the low cost illegal labor i.e. housekeeper-gardener-handyman she needs, plus over a $1000.00 a month to go crazy on!
Some people are never happy.

Obama loves you...


i18.photobucket.com

Obedience

The master Bankei's talks were attended not only by Zen students but by persons of all ranks and sects. He never quoted sutras not indulged in scholastic dissertations. Instead, his words were spoken directly from his heart to the hearts of his listeners.

His large audience angered a priest of the Nichiren sect because the adherents had left to hear about Zen. The self-centered Nichiren priest came to the temple, determined to have a debate with Bankei.

"Hey, Zen teacher!" he called out. "Wait a minute. Whoever respects you will obey what you say, but a man like myself does not respect you. Can you make me obey you?"

"Come up beside me and I will show you," said Bankei.

Proudly the priest pushed his way through the crowd to the teacher.

Bankei smiled. "Come over to my left side."

The priest obeyed.

"No," said Bankei, "we may talk better if you are on the right side. Step over here."

The priest proudly stepped over to the right.

"You see," observed Bankei, "you are obeying me and I think you are a very gentle person. Now sit down and listen."
2012-06-10 10:59:23 AM  
1 votes:

Hermione_Granger: Better times are ahead, I hope.


I think this is the first time Ive ever hugged someone on Fark. ((((HUGS))))

One foot in front of the other.
2012-06-10 10:57:12 AM  
1 votes:

wambu: To save money, she has canceled the data plan on her BlackBerry

On Social Security and living in a trailer. Why does she need a Blackberry in the first place?


Who would need it more? She's still looking for work.
2012-06-10 10:44:03 AM  
1 votes:
/taught
2012-06-10 10:41:48 AM  
1 votes:
I am tending to beleive in the the inevitable need for a re-emergence of extended families. Which I think will ultimately be a good thing, in a humanitarian kind if way. The problem is that while the "west" would be "returning" to this system, newly developed cultures will be simultaneously abandoning it. We will be in effect watching these cultures go through the same irresponsible, egocentric, adolescence that we've been going through and that have brought us to where we are now.
Hopefully, their parents fought them better.
2012-06-10 10:36:45 AM  
1 votes:

attention span of a retarded fruit fly: So its above people that are over 60 to group together and get a house and help each other out? I am not moving out of my starter house and paying this off. Its not a bad size three bedrooms and that will keep my costs down. Also havingg kids at an older age helps as well. When im 60 my youngest will be 20 and we can pool together like they used to. I got the rooms and can cook and do your laundry. You pay some rent and come and go as you please. its time to go back to the ways that worked for years. Extended families are going to have to have a comeback.


`
That's a pretty good description of Spain today, seems their problem is there are no jobs so the 20 & 30 year old kids still live at home.
2012-06-10 10:34:17 AM  
1 votes:
A rightfully deserved fate for somebody who never worked a full year in her life! Just another Lib who thinks the world should be served to her on a silver platter of entitlement.

But after losing her job as an executive assistant at an advertising agency in 2008...

Oh, huh... Okay, I bet she just sat on her ass collecting those fat unemployment checks while living on my dime!

...she searched fruitlessly for full-time work and exhausted her unemployment benefits.

Ah, hmm... Well, she'd be fine if she had the foresight to actually save and not live beyond her means!

For a while, she strung together odd jobs and lived off her 401(k) retirement and profit-sharing accounts. Then, this year, with her savings depleted and no job offers in sight, she reluctantly applied for Social Security.

Eh, well, she should... Was she... Rush Limbaugh said that... Uhh...
2012-06-10 10:33:35 AM  
1 votes:

leevis: jso2897: moefuggenbrew: It's Bush's fault

Depends on which Bush you're talking about. Back in 1988, Bush Sr. said "I would like to see this nation's wealth in fewer, righter, tighter hands".
No one could reasonably contend that that has not been achieved.

Yes, what this country needs is more millionaire democrats who "feel your pain".


Well, if you are capable of simple arithmetic, you have to realize that the rich can't keep getting richer, and the poor poorer, forever. It isn't mathematically possible.
Would your proposal be to not view it as a problem, and simply let matters take their course?
That's potentially a rather robust program. Generally, most of the people I see proposing "laissez faire" solutions aren't nearly hard enough to live through them.
2012-06-10 10:26:04 AM  
1 votes:
@NewportBarGuy: I think you're right. So, financially, I need to have approximately 2.5 million in savings and investments in order to retire on an income of $40,000 a year. . . If I want to retire at a reasonable age.

Based on my current stock portfolio, this means I need to set aside more than $7,000 a year.

This is getting ridiculous. Not only are employers rarely providing retirement plans or matching 401k contributions, they're also withholding raises more often.

Unfortunately, my 401k rests entirely on my ability to foresee the future in order to avoid the next Enron disaster. 2011 was the first time I saw significant growth in my portfolio since the recession and it's been turning an impressive profit thus far . . . But relying on a 401k or Roth as a retirement income is a stupid idea.

Apparently, so is buying international debt at times.

We're in serious trouble.
2012-06-10 10:19:21 AM  
1 votes:
The 'service economy' was a hilarious notion back to when Clinton was it's apostle. Apparently it's based on the perspective developing nations are too stupid to take the same management and accounting courses as developed, so they'll build things and we'll manage them. It's such a slam dunk we can toss educational requirements and border tariffs.
Reap - sow.
2012-06-10 10:16:52 AM  
1 votes:
After Ron Paul gets into office every American will get the only stimulus package they need- a copy of Atlas Shrugged along with a link for digital download.
 
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