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14660 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jun 2012 at 10:09 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-10 05:36:19 PM

DrewCurtisJr: indarwinsshadow: If you can't be bothered to look it up, I can't be bothered to care if you do.

That's why nobody wanted you in IT.


Maybe. At least I'm employed and have friends.
.
..
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Unlike you.
 
2012-06-10 05:38:38 PM

Julie Cochrane: DrewCurtisJr: Julie Cochrane: The whole point of capitalism is that the average person can survive modestly by being average---he doesn't lose horribly and go down in flames.

Capitalism doesn't have a point.

Good point.


I'm with you on your wall of text/point. Everyone wants to believe we are living in a Rocky movie where your only limitation is you. "Get up Rock!" Problem is, there are multiple interests actively trying to keep you down.

The CEO/wealthy/politician class is so widely reviled now because they are multi-generational. Henry Ford's grandson has no skin in the game, he's always been wealthy and always will be. I live in Wal-Mart land and get to see first hand Sam's spoiled grandchildren. They contribute nothing to society and live off the backs of the poor.

So in short... until average Joe can make a decent wage performing honest work, place his money into a savings account earning more than .01% interest, and have a fair shot at the "American Dream", I have no problem requiring incomes of over $1million taxed at 50% over that amount. If you want to fleece the workforce, pay the price.
 
2012-06-10 05:48:44 PM

DrewCurtisJr: over_and_done: My "retirement" plan is to live as long as I can with my loved ones, and then when I can no longer sustain a useful life because I'm no longer allowed to work and cannot get medical care, to end my life in a reasonably not-messy way before I become a burden on my better half.

I know Americans are adverse to saving... but jeez...


A Fark poster, Julie Cochrane, in this thread points out why average Americans are adverse to 401K plans and savings plans. Look upthread.

It's not just her opinion. Objectively, 401K plans allow CEOs to steal their investor's money to pay their bloated salaries, while saving plans allow banks to steal your money to employ frauds who foreclose on your mortgage.

Got it? Again, this is not rocket science.
 
2012-06-10 05:57:12 PM

Delay: A Fark poster, Julie Cochrane, in this thread points out why average Americans are adverse to 401K plans and savings plans. Look upthread.


Are you serious? Americans don't save because they love to spend, there are plenty of other investment options besides 401k's and banks.
 
2012-06-10 05:59:58 PM

indarwinsshadow: Maybe. At least I'm employed and have friends.
.
..
...
Unlike you.


I try to help you out and you respond like a 12 year old.
 
2012-06-10 06:01:47 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Delay: A Fark poster, Julie Cochrane, in this thread points out why average Americans are adverse to 401K plans and savings plans. Look upthread.

Are you serious? Americans don't save because they love to spend, there are plenty of other investment options besides 401k's and banks.


Share with us financial wizard.
 
2012-06-10 06:04:13 PM
Now that I think about it more, capitalism does have a point. Capitalism is a social contract between the government and the masses in which the masses agree not to roust the rich out of their mansions with torches and pitchforks quite yet as long as certain market rules are followed which give people who aren't rich a chance at something other than serfdom.

The rich, for their part, are agreeing to try to keep their stuff by following rules instead of by general mayhem.

Severe breaches of the social contract by either side are problematic. For the most part, most breaches just make the system run a lot less efficiently and mean less stuff and less happiness for everybody.
 
2012-06-10 06:13:00 PM

StoneColdAtheist: Coastalgrl: Actually, they tried to support me though college but couldn't. Whrn the stock market went in 2004-5, it took my college fund with it. Bought me a decent car with what was left and said good luck. I don't mind at all sending them money but my choices are now between food/pay debt and send them money. I've been alternating

Fair enough. I guess your Boobies same off as just a bit shallow is all.

Good luck to you and your parents.


Thanks and its ok. I was typing on a phone and not very specific. We take turns. I get a car payment, she gets me a pair of pants where she works part time for cheap. Its a team effort. Whats gets me is I have an opportunity for a free PhD and I'm concerned that I wont be making enough money to make sure I have emergency funds for them. I even tried buying a house where Im headed for school so they could come live with me but couldnt get a mortgage. Ive put off the PhD for a year and Im worried that if I dont do it now, I never will. Thankfully, I have a good job who is willing to let me work part time during the academic year and full for the summer.
 
2012-06-10 06:16:14 PM

majestic: Share with us financial wizard.


Share what, savings alternatives? There are plenty including things like credit unions, i bonds, muni's, etc.
 
2012-06-10 06:28:36 PM

Nagle: I was just amazed at how she went through her life savings in a single year and used her entire retirement savings in a single year. I'm sure the extra 20% would have made a huge difference and allowed that money she spent in 1 year to be stretched over the 23 years.

Social Security is a retirement supplement. It's not supposed to be your primary source of income.

/If she is so hard pressed for money, why is she flying when she could take a bus for a lot less or drive herself for a lot less. FL to NC is not that far.
//She just sounds like a lady who's really bad with money.
///$1,082 - $336(rent and utilities) = $746 / month for food and everything else


you know, I was thinking about this article more and how it was missing some incredibly critical pieces of information.

she was 60ish. so clearly at a point in your life where you might be thinking about retirement.
1) how much life savings did she burn through? did she have 10k or 100k in savings?
2) how much did she have in her 401k? 10k or 500k? (she didnt have any kids or husband, so everything was on herself ...)
3) credit card debt? other debt? where was the discussion about bankruptcy??
4) while burning through her savings and retirement, how much was she spending a month?
5) what happened to her house in CA? we have no information.
6) how absurd was her life before she fell on hard times?
7) when she was running trough her savings, why didnt she cut all her expenses to the bone? cell phone, tv, blah blah blah. she had to do that once she retired?? LOL

my guess is that this is just another example of a grasshopper complaining about her choices.

/no, I am not perfect, but somewhere in the middle.
 
2012-06-10 06:30:14 PM

Julie Cochrane: Now that I think about it more, capitalism does have a point.


Real capitalism is the farmer's market on Saturday or ebay on every day of the week. But GOP capitalism is war profiteers that exist only from government money.
 
2012-06-10 06:30:21 PM

DrewCurtisJr: majestic: Share with us financial wizard.

Share what, savings alternatives? There are plenty including things like credit unions, i bonds, muni's, etc.


Great! What kind of interest rate can I get on those things?
 
2012-06-10 06:36:13 PM

DrewCurtisJr: over_and_done: My "retirement" plan is to live as long as I can with my loved ones, and then when I can no longer sustain a useful life because I'm no longer allowed to work and cannot get medical care, to end my life in a reasonably not-messy way before I become a burden on my better half.

I know Americans are adverse to saving... but jeez...


Saving requires a source of income. THERE ARE NO FARKING JOBS. THERE IS NOTHING TO SAVE.

done with this retarded thread
 
2012-06-10 06:44:30 PM

majestic: Great! What kind of interest rate can I get on those things?


Depends, and as with most investments, the greater the return the greater the risk. Some munis are paying 6%, tax free.
 
2012-06-10 06:49:24 PM

Franko: I think there are some good solutions out there, but they're pretty socialist

- increase minimum wage... a lot. Perhaps along the same lines as executive salary increases over the past 10 years.

- perhaps peg your dollar here and there to make buying foreign-made products more expensive and your exports cheaper (it's the Chinese way!)

I'm no economist, but these might help a bit, no?


IMO
Pegging currency like China does would hurt all our imports. Lots of things Americans buy would be much more expensive. Exports would be more competitive, yes.
So in essence, all our gadgets, furniture, etc. would be more expensive.

Increasing minimum wage would also increase the cost of domestically produced goods. Every step of vertical supply chain would increase costs, therefore major increases in price per good.

/not an economist either, so rip away.
 
2012-06-10 06:56:39 PM

Starfly: Increasing minimum wage would also increase the cost of domestically produced goods. Every step of vertical supply chain would increase costs, therefore major increases in price per good.


Wouldn't that increase be isolated to folks that don't use the US dollar, because of the exchange rate? Just asking.
 
2012-06-10 07:11:20 PM

Delay:
I strongly believe SS and Medicare are essential, but retirement may be one of those myths. The woman needs to do something productive. The government is paying her anyway, pay her to do something useful. If some bureaucrat can't think of something, I'll be glad to offer 40 job descriptions appropriate to her skills and that would make more sense than what is going on here. Don't call it Social Security, call it WPA or something.


Here's the question though - if her skills are good enough that she can use them to provide useful work, why doesn't someone hire her? Your ire is being heaped upon the wrong head here. If you need to blame someone, blame the "job creators" who are letting millions of people like her with tens of millions of years of experience and knowledge waste away because they would rather hire people whom they can pay nothing and work to death instead, and be grateful for the privilege.

It's the same mentality that too many americans use when buying cheap WalMart sh*t from China time and time and time again instead of buying the better made product that will last for years once.

Tell private industry to get off its ass and do something, rather than blaming the government for... doing something.
 
2012-06-10 07:14:44 PM

Starfly: Franko: I think there are some good solutions out there, but they're pretty socialist

- increase minimum wage... a lot. Perhaps along the same lines as executive salary increases over the past 10 years.

- perhaps peg your dollar here and there to make buying foreign-made products more expensive and your exports cheaper (it's the Chinese way!)

I'm no economist, but these might help a bit, no?

IMO
Pegging currency like China does would hurt all our imports. Lots of things Americans buy would be much more expensive. Exports would be more competitive, yes.
So in essence, all our gadgets, furniture, etc. would be more expensive.

Increasing minimum wage would also increase the cost of domestically produced goods. Every step of vertical supply chain would increase costs, therefore major increases in price per good.

/not an economist either, so rip away.


An hourly wage subsidy paid to American workers would encourage employment more than a minimum wage. Plus, the cost of a subsidy is more transparent than the cost of an unfunded mandate. Set the subsidy equal to the poverty line -- about $5.29/hr for full-time work -- and let the worker negotiate with the employer for additional wages on top of that. At that point, a minimum wage paid by employers is unnecessary, and you will have essentially full employment and a fluid job market.

Or at the very least,try it out in a state like Mississippi. If it doesn't work, you will have at least added to the store of human knowledge, and you can try something else. And if it does work, the country will be a hell of a lot better off when you roll it out nationally.

/I joke about a lot of things on Fark, but I am serious about a few things -- Pigovian and Georgist taxes over taxes on income, capital, and trade, and about federal wage subsidies over the federal minimum wage. And some other things, too, like Approval voting over Plurality, and Oregon over California. :)
 
2012-06-10 07:18:27 PM

rvesco: [moonbattery.com image 308x270]


He was right. He was so motherf*cking right. And yet, they did not listen.
30+ years later, they did not listen, and if I were him it would be difficult
for me not to use the phrase "I told you so" at least every other sentence.
 
2012-06-10 07:19:04 PM

rewind2846: Tell private industry to get off its ass and do something, rather than blaming the government for... doing something.


What are they supposed to do, hire people they don't need?

rewind2846: It's the same mentality that too many americans use when buying cheap WalMart sh*t from China time and time and time again instead of buying the better made product that will last for years once.


And that's another problem. You can hire say U.S. workers but as long as walmart shoppers won't pay an extra 25 cents for a tuning fork made in America you aren't going to be able to compete. People shop their friends and neighbors out of jobs and then they are shocked when it happens to them.
 
2012-06-10 07:23:47 PM

DrewCurtisJr: majestic: Great! What kind of interest rate can I get on those things?

Depends, and as with most investments, the greater the return the greater the risk. Some munis are paying 6%, tax free.


So the 6% is high risk? Once upon a time, you could get 5% on a savings account with zero risk. Made sense as the bank would loan money at 8 or 9%. Now, the banks still loan at 8 or 9% and pay you a whopping .1% on deposits. Where is the money going? It's a big ass raping since the banks got bailed out with YOUR money.

El sistema esta chingado. Might as well live in Mexico.
 
2012-06-10 07:27:12 PM

Snarfangel: /I joke about a lot of things on Fark, but I am serious about a few things -- Pigovian and Georgist taxes over taxes on income, capital, and trade, and about federal wage subsidies over the federal minimum wage. And some other things, too, like Approval voting over Plurality, and Oregon over California. :)


Oh, don't go there...not even in tiny print. The only thing Origun has over California is latitude.
 
2012-06-10 07:34:54 PM

StoneColdAtheist: Snarfangel: /I joke about a lot of things on Fark, but I am serious about a few things -- Pigovian and Georgist taxes over taxes on income, capital, and trade, and about federal wage subsidies over the federal minimum wage. And some other things, too, like Approval voting over Plurality, and Oregon over California. :)

Oh, don't go there...not even in tiny print. The only thing Origun has over California is latitude.


Well, your profile says you live in Northern California, and I live in Southern Oregon. If you are north of Tahoe, we can both agree that the Great State of Jefferson is better than both. :)
 
2012-06-10 07:38:22 PM

Delay: Brontes: Yeah, it seems like the government would have gotten waaaay more for their money if they had injected bailout money to people to pay down housing and student loan debts. Not having either at the time of the bailouts, I would have been pretty irate at not getting any of the govt. cheese though....

Yep. Moral hazard too.

There are ways to address both of these. First, there would need to be an agreement on debt relief. Although, I'm not sure that agreement would address your irritation. Would flogging in a public square work?


I dunno. How would you decide what criteria applicants had to meet to be eligible for flogging?
 
2012-06-10 07:39:10 PM

majestic: So the 6% is high risk? Once upon a time, you could get 5% on a savings account with zero risk. Made sense as the bank would loan money at 8 or 9%. Now, the banks still loan at 8 or 9% and pay you a whopping .1% on deposits. Where is the money going? It's a big ass raping since the banks got bailed out with YOUR money.


Yes but there are 2 sides to that. You can get also get a 30 year mortgage for under 4% if you have a good credit rating.

majestic: Might as well live in Mexico.


A lot of people are tiring in Mexico. Nice weather, cheaper housing, inexpensive healthcare, and supposed to be pretty nice.
 
2012-06-10 07:41:31 PM
Sucks to see this happening

Both DNC and GOP are at fault. They continue failed economic ideas like Free Trade, Globalism, Bank Bailouts, Providing Investment Income for the Rich, and Excessive Spending/Taxation. Both parties do it, and both are at fault
 
2012-06-10 07:44:54 PM

Snarfangel: Well, your profile says you live in Northern California, and I live in Southern Oregon. If you are north of Tahoe, we can both agree that the Great State of Jefferson is better than both. :)


Yo...have a hit of my righteous home-grown! ;^)
 
2012-06-10 07:48:04 PM

DrewCurtisJr: majestic: So the 6% is high risk? Once upon a time, you could get 5% on a savings account with zero risk. Made sense as the bank would loan money at 8 or 9%. Now, the banks still loan at 8 or 9% and pay you a whopping .1% on deposits. Where is the money going? It's a big ass raping since the banks got bailed out with YOUR money.

Yes but there are 2 sides to that. You can get also get a 30 year mortgage for under 4% if you have a good credit rating. Not a lot of that going around.

majestic: Might as well live in Mexico.

A lot of people are tiring in Mexico. Nice weather, cheaper housing, inexpensive healthcare, and supposed to be pretty nice. My wife is from PV, one of the less likely to be denoganized spots. Plan on "tiring" there some day.

 
2012-06-10 07:51:12 PM

DancingElkCondor: Sucks to see this happening

Both DNC and GOP are at fault. They continue failed economic ideas like Free Trade, Globalism, Bank Bailouts, Providing Investment Income for the Rich, and Excessive Spending/Taxation. Both parties do it, and both are at fault


so vote communist party?
 
2012-06-10 07:58:45 PM
It's the same as Sam Kinison use to say about the starving people of Africa......MOVE! You live in a desert! Same thing. Yeah, she might have lived in California her life, but if there are no jobs, and you WANT to work, then move to where the jobs are located. People need to be a little more flexible in this economy.
 
2012-06-10 08:03:52 PM

rvesco: moonbattery.com


No. Hell no. Fark no.

Delay: I don't know whether what you suggest is the only one that works. But, let's see how yours could work here. As an example, my business constantly has more stuff to do than my folks have time to spare. We know what needs to be done, there are "shovel ready" projects, there is just not enough demand right now. We need the government to help out with the demand until the economy turns up. Let's agree, she gets money from the government, no matter what. So, "All boomers DIAF," is not an acceptable solution.


I'd rather it be voluntary, but she (and many others) wouldn't be in this mess if they could.

Doing anything that assumes good faith in a bad economy is going to result in the company weaseling out on a technicality ("aka 49 employee syndrome").


She selects to receive her decreased (age 62) benefit until age 66, however, not directly. She must work in the direct-hire program, unless she is disabled, of course. (She certainly does not look disabled to me.) She selects a company as the best fit to her skills and she is hired. The government pays the company an up to 4-year grant (based on her age) equal to her decreased SS benefit ($1082 monthly) which the company must match or exceed.

Therefore, instead of the puny $1,082 per month, she gets at least $12 per hour at a job that is of her choice. In return, the company provides standard benefits and a justification to the government that she is doing something useful - not too hard since the company is on the hook for at least half her salary.


To encourage them to do more than just $12 an hour for the balance of their time to 65, do the following:

If she wishes to continue past eligibility, the company gets a sizable tax cut for allowing her to continue, which grows over time to reward longevity with the company.

If she wishes to choose a job, it must be direct-hire. The program does not apply to any form of indirect labor.
 
2012-06-10 08:06:07 PM

namatad: my guess is that this is just another example of a grasshopper complaining about her choices.


While you're demonstrating that sociopathy is not good government policy.
 
2012-06-10 08:09:12 PM
One of the problems with high achievement people is they develop an, "If I can do it, anybody can," mentality.

Or, "Anybody can do it, if you're just follow these basic ground rules: here they are."

The problem with the first idea is that average people are average. And there may be times in the world that are very hard, so hard that average people can't play by the rules and get by. But that doesn't make those times okay, and that doesn't make those average people the authors of their own misfortune. It just means that you're living in a time and place that's much harder than average.

The problem with the second idea is that there are a whole lot of people giving out basic ground rules, the basic ground rules contradict each other, and the average person only has average abilities with which to sort out what should work and how to work it. Average people not having superhuman self-discipline doesn't make them the authors of their own misfortune, either. Again, some times are tougher than average. Some times and places are easier than average.

Generally speaking, relative to all times and places throughout history, this time and place is easier than average for most places across much of the known world. It is amazingly easier than average for almost anyone born in the US or who somehow makes their way into the US.

However, relative to the American Dream and for white folks since the Great Depression, this is a significantly tougher than average time.

For most of Western Europe, relative to post-WWII standards, this is a significantly tougher than average time.

So if the relatively privileged average people in those relatively privileged places aren't doing nearly as well economically as people demographically like them did in the same places in easier times----well, duh.

It's not the rats, it's the maze.
 
2012-06-10 08:12:36 PM

p51d007: It's the same as Sam Kinison use to say about the starving people of Africa......MOVE! You live in a desert! Same thing. Yeah, she might have lived in California her life, but if there are no jobs, and you WANT to work, then move to where the jobs are located. People need to be a little more flexible in this economy.


Southeast Asia?
 
2012-06-10 08:23:06 PM
o/~ In eighteen hundred and forty-one
Me corduroy britches I put on
Me corduroy britches I put on
To work upon the railway, the railway
I'm weary of the railway
Poor Paddy works on the railway

In eighteen hundred and forty-two
I left the Old World for the New
I left the Old World for the New
To work upon the railway, the railway
I'm weary of the railway
Poor Paddy works on the railway

.... etc. ....

Oh, the irony.
 
2012-06-10 08:34:03 PM

p51d007: Yeah, she might have lived in California her life, but if there are no jobs, and you WANT to work, then move to where the jobs are located. People need to be a little more flexible in this economy.


She did if you didn't read the article. She did all the right things, even ones beyond what you asked of her to do.


Then again, why should we have to please businesses hand and foot when they complain about doing anything? If anything, the military should be willing to act on offshoring as a national security threat at the least - especially when hostile countries are selected for offshoring destinations. At the most, businesses should be willing to be reasonable, with the idea that doing otherwise would not be in their best interest.
 
2012-06-10 08:42:03 PM

DrewCurtisJr: rewind2846: Tell private industry to get off its ass and do something, rather than blaming the government for... doing something.

What are they supposed to do, hire people they don't need?


And why don't they need people? Because fewer people are buying their sh*t.
Why are fewer people buying their sh*t? Because they have less (or no) money.
Why don't they have more money? A combination of stagnant wages, outsourcing and massive layoffs.

If businesses don't provide jobs, which increase the amount of money available for goods and services, which increases demand, which increases the need for more people and so on... then government has to do it. But that, of course, is SOSHULIZMZ.

The businesses that do this must do so together for the greater economic good, and all at once, even if they take a hit for a quarter or two. In the long run they will see profits rise and a return to a more normal economy.

But on second thought I'm thinking they really don't want that, because having a down economy gives them advantages versus their employees that they normally wouldn't have in better economic periods. They can continue to fire at any whim, outsource everything, keep pay low and without raises while stashing billions in profits away, and work their remaining employees to burnout.

It's an employers dream come true.

You can't cut your hand off with a chainsaw and then wonder why you're bleeding to death. Businesses brought this on themselves, and they are the only ones who can really fix it. All any government can do is apply a tourniquet.
 
2012-06-10 08:48:42 PM

Delay: Wouldn't that increase be isolated to folks that don't use the US dollar, because of the exchange rate? Just asking.


Both. Imagine all the cooks at your local restaurant. The cost of food would have to increase. Not to mention the people who work in factories preparing the food for the restaurant.

(my second point was not related to the pegging currency debate)

I actually don't think US can peg currency. The exchange rate is because of supply and demand. tbh i am not knowledgeable in the exchange rate economics.
 
2012-06-10 08:50:01 PM

DrewCurtisJr: indarwinsshadow: Maybe. At least I'm employed and have friends.
.
..
...
Unlike you.

I try to help you out and you respond like a 12 year old.


Would you prefer I think you're a douche nozzle attention whore? If it helps you go with that.
 
2012-06-10 09:08:15 PM
I think there's only one good answer to the economic challenges facing our nation:

Don't be a douche to people who are hurting economically. Times suck. A compassionate attitude is free.

If everyone woke up and started from that tomorrow, that one change in attitude would lift enough material grief off enough people's backs to make a tangible change in consumer mood, investor mood, hiring manager mood.

How many people would change how many thoughts of "I just can't face it today" to "Today I think maybe I can." How many? And the next day? And the next?

It may sound like touchy-feely bullshiat, but it's not. It's the one thing you can afford to do no matter who your are or how broke you are.

Hell, even if you're a card-carrying sociopath, an economic upturn would be in your self-interest, too. You don't have to be compassionate--as with the female orgasm, if you are physiologically incapable of doing it, a sincere fake counts. You can toy and monkey with the people around you later. Right now it's in your self-interest for the economy--and therefore all those schmucks around you---to buck up and get some confidence so they can GTFBTW.

People are going to have to small business our way out of this, possibly black market, possibly by taking over state and local governments and removing barriers to entry and red tape. But it's going to get worse before it gets better, and it's going to be a long road.
 
2012-06-10 09:28:39 PM

Medic Zero: wambu: To save money, she has canceled the data plan on her BlackBerry

On Social Security and living in a trailer. Why does she need a Blackberry in the first place?

Because she's still trying to get a job, that's why.


You can get a $20 phone with a $7 a month plan from Virgin mobile that will work just fine for answering job ads.
 
2012-06-10 09:30:17 PM

indarwinsshadow: Would you prefer I think you're a douche nozzle attention whore? If it helps you go with that.


Help what? I really don't care what you think of me either way. I don't need help, I'm not the one who was unemployed for years.
 
2012-06-10 09:33:57 PM

rewind2846: The businesses that do this must do so together for the greater economic good, and all at once, even if they take a hit for a quarter or two. In the long run they will see profits rise and a return to a more normal economy.


That's fine, but are you going to force people to buy these their goods and services? What if some Chinese company comes in with a lower bid for a project, are you going to force a company to go with a U.S. firm? Then you have all kinds of threats of retaliation.
 
2012-06-10 09:40:32 PM

sethstorm: namatad: my guess is that this is just another example of a grasshopper complaining about her choices.

While you're demonstrating that sociopathy is not good government policy.


derp???
DERP!!!

I was asking for more information from the journalist and speculating that this woman made a number of bad decisions. how is that sociopathic?

what government policy should we have to help old people who are able to save for retirement but dont? Should the government help out? hell yes.
can the government save everyone? hell no

on the other hand, what is her complaint again?
she is poor?
she had to turn off the data plan on her phone?
LOLOLOLOL
 
2012-06-10 10:24:24 PM

attention span of a retarded fruit fly: So its above people that are over 60 to group together and get a house and help each other out? I am not moving out of my starter house and paying this off. Its not a bad size three bedrooms and that will keep my costs down. Also havingg kids at an older age helps as well. When im 60 my youngest will be 20 and we can pool together like they used to. I got the rooms and can cook and do your laundry. You pay some rent and come and go as you please. its time to go back to the ways that worked for years. Extended families are going to have to have a comeback.


Or we could try and give Americans jobs.

/I hate it when people say 'welp, time to tighten the belt!'. No. That is a short-term, crisis-management plan, and we need to start long-term, surviving-as-a-nation planning. We span a farking continent, it's not like we need to import a damn thing to begin with--but we have to actually think it through.
 
2012-06-10 10:24:47 PM

DrewCurtisJr: rewind2846: The businesses that do this must do so together for the greater economic good, and all at once, even if they take a hit for a quarter or two. In the long run they will see profits rise and a return to a more normal economy.

That's fine, but are you going to force people to buy these their goods and services? What if some Chinese company comes in with a lower bid for a project, are you going to force a company to go with a U.S. firm? Then you have all kinds of threats of retaliation.


You don't need to "force" anyone, as long as the "free market" works as it's supposed to and not as it has been corrupted to behave. As long as one can make a better (not necessarily cheaper) product or service, people will pay for it. Of course the main reason that people are going for the cheap product in the first place (beside greed and/or stupidity) is that they have less money to spend. WalMart does more business in bad economic times than good, and so do Dollar stores.

I watched a documentary the other week where some guy went up to people who were wearing baseball caps, and asked them where they were made (tag inside). Many of those he asked were wearing caps with american flags or designs. Out of over 40 people he asked, all but a 2 or 3 caps were made in China, or Mexico, or Bangladesh. Yet I guarantee that if you spot a teabagger railing on the president about jobs, they will be holding an american flag, or wearing a flag themed tshirt or ball cap, or have pro-america bumper stickers on his truck or car. And none of them will have been made here.

The "free market" also assumes a more level playing field for businesses. I'm assuming you know why products from places like China are lower in price, as well as cheaper in manufacture, so I won't go over that here. Point is that corporations and the people who buy from them have no one to blame but themselves for the lack of jobs in this country. Evey time someone buys a "made in China" stamped item they chip away at their own job, even if that job can't be outsourced, because there will be less demand for what they do when people have less money.

As for which firm gets the job? I would set up a set of requirements, very stringent ones. And I would ask for records and inspections of past projects from each firm, as well as looking at the projects or products myself or by my designate. I'm not looking at "lowest bid", I want the job done right and on time. The company that can do this best gets the contract. "Good enough" isn't good enough, and we should stop settling for that.
 
2012-06-10 10:59:55 PM

rewind2846: You don't need to "force" anyone, as long as the "free market" works as it's supposed to and not as it has been corrupted to behave. As long as one can make a better (not necessarily cheaper) product or service, people will pay for it. Of course the main reason that people are going for the cheap product in the first place (beside greed and/or stupidity) is that they have less money to spend. WalMart does more business in bad economic times than good, and so do Dollar stores.


I don't think that is true. The free market effect is clear, most people won't pay more. This is why you can go into stores and not find anything made in the US. This is the effect of 30 years of consumer choice.

The "free market" also assumes a more level playing field for businesses. I'm assuming you know why products from places like China are lower in price, as well as cheaper in manufacture, so I won't go over that here. Point is that corporations and the people who buy from them have no one to blame but themselves for the lack of jobs in this country. Evey time someone buys a "made in China" stamped item they chip away at their own job, even if that job can't be outsourced, because there will be less demand for what they do when people have less money.

If you want to put more trade restrictions on China that is fine with me, although our business lobbies have usually lobbied against them because they are scared to death of being left out of the huge Chinese market. Although I think a lot of them have become disillusioned recently as they start to realize China isn't willing to let foreign firms come in unless they give a lot up, and they are also going to aggressively push for access into the U.S. and global markets.
 
2012-06-10 11:11:46 PM
I guess where I'm coming from here is that if I can't figure this shiat out or make it work, how can Joe Average? I at least started out as a bona fide genius--never made it into the superstar fantastic high-flyer club of uber-geniuses, but I qualified for the union card. After a bump to the head and hitting middle age, no idea if I still do or not, but still--shinier than your average bear.

If I'm not getting it, how in the hell can it be Joe Average's fault that he doesn't get it?

Seriously, that shiat is farked up. We've made the rules of getting by in our society too damned complicated. It may be that times just suck and we can't fix it so Joe Average can get by because there are no solutions---but if so, don't add insult to injury. Tell Joe the lousy news and quit blaming him, it ain't his fault.

I've got a friend who's my age who hasn't held a full time, permanent job in a year and a half. He's been looking. He's been going from contract to contract. You would not farking believe this guy's resume. You would not farking believe the guy's standards of excellence, what a forward planner, what a go-getter, what qualifications. I'm not going to give details because it's not my story to tell. But if that guy ain't making it, it sure as hell isn't Joe Average's fault that he can't.

One of the people I know who's out of work? Someone whose IQ scores are in a tight handful of top scores on the planet. At that level scores quit meaning so much, but it does mean in a non-broken world, when you have real job skills and a lifelong history of successful, productive employment without blemishes, you ought to be able to find a job.

Just as a bit of trivia, another person I know who's out of work used to be on a first name basis with the President of the United States (not the current one, a previous one). Well--one way first name basis. The president's first name was "Yes, Mr. President." LOL

I'm not saying doom and gloom oh it's impossible give up trying. Oh hell no don't give up trying. Never give up, never give in.

When it's raining buckets outside and the wind's blowing hard, carry a damned umbrella, but don't sneer at the other guy when he walks in the door soaking wet. You don't know anything about his prior storm preparedness--all you know is he's wet now. (Like you might be if that wind farks up your umbrella.)
 
2012-06-10 11:32:49 PM
I'm with Julie Cochrane with a lot of what she posted above.

Still gonna post though.

I'll say that I am pessimistic about whats going to happen to this country in the future. Our political system is deeply entrenched in cronyism, capitalism isn't being allowed to flourish, and the general atmosphere is hostile to success. Its frustrating to see our national economy, essentially a Lamborghini with a rev-limiter.

For one thing, we have protectionist policies that do nothing except hurt us. If you've read Ricardo, you would see why. If it costs less to make something abroad than at home, we should shut down our domestic production of whatever that product is, and concentrate at what were good at. One example I can think of is the tariffs we put on steel way back in the day. It kept union steelworkers employed for longer than it should have made sense, but it caused American automotive production to become more expensive, which in turn led to less American cars being less competitive financially.

We also have a culture that is economically illiterate. People believe that stimulus spending can work, when they should know that it can't. Not only that, but it just goes to line the pockets of the few at the expense of many. They're causing inflation, which hurts everybody, makes businesses more skittish about long term investments, and forces the government to issue bonds that pay interest (which we have to pay taxes to cover later). Those bonds are terrible. Its money being held by institutions that are too unimaginative to make real investments that would help the economy.

I once went to a party for graduating social workers, and they just sat there, joking (lamenting) about how no jobs for them existed. Not one of them could figure out how to use their education outside of the context it was provided for them. Not one of them considered some type of self employment. They just sat there talking about the lack of "jobs" aw if "jobs" were a thing. It was frustrating to watch.

Then there's the corporate culture. Stocks are great for providing liquidity, but they come at a price. The owners of the company has to pay for a board and CEO whose interests are not necessarily aligned with their shareholders, or the future value of the company. Carl Icahn has a few pretty thorough essays on his website on why corporate governance is filled with flaws.

Then we have a massive, bloated government. They cut billions from a budget and praise themselves for it, even though what we really need is permanent government cuts to the tune of a few trillions for the conceivable future. What do we have military bases in the Philippines for? Do we think the Spanish are coming back to get them? Why are we in Germany, Korea,Iceland, or Japan for? What does it do for us? The USSR isn't going to attack us. Social security needs to be cut. Out. We don't need an alphabet soup either. They're (the ATF, DEA, etc.) more of a liability than anything. We can cut down on the number of prisoners we have too, and still maintain the level of security we already have. Cut out all the fat, and the taxes needed for them, and the money thats being spent unproductively will go towards more productive ends.

I could go on and on, but I know its not going to do any good. People who are ideologically committed to the maintenance of this system would rather have everyone become progressively poorer than make changes for the better.
 
2012-06-11 12:53:57 AM

NewportBarGuy: It's going to be an interesting few decades, and by "interesting" I think we'll revisit the 70's my father told me about.


Or the 30s his father told him about.
 
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