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(The New York Times)   I have seen the future and it cannot find work   (nytimes.com) divider line 212
    More: Sad, Steep, social security, Outer Banks, Hurricane Irene, Urban Institute, executive assistant  
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14662 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jun 2012 at 10:09 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-10 09:12:22 AM  
From the headline, I immediately assumed it was about Obamacare.
 
2012-06-10 09:25:52 AM  
It's going to be an interesting few decades, and by "interesting" I think we'll revisit the 70's my father told me about.

We have absolutely no idea how we're going to make this Service Economy as profitable as union wages were for several decades. Not even trying to make this a union thread, just saying. We've got to figure out how to create sustainable jobs that pay well and I've not heard anyone with any kind of realistic idea for doing so. Tax cuts and Green Jobs are nice buzz words, but we have a systemic employment problem and we're too scared to fully address the issue of people working longer, younger people having to wait longer to move in or up, and what the f*ck do we do with high school educated and college drop-out workers?

Technology and automation have relegated many of them to $7/hr jobs and that pay about the same as collecting any kind of state or federal assistance. Hell, even more if you deduct for child care or similar costs.

Look... We put our heads together when we needed to and developed the atom bomb and the Apollo program. If we put that same kind of effort, get our best labor economists, industrialists, bankers together for a NO BS honest assessment of where we are and where we need to go, we can fix this. Executive compensation is going to have to trickle back down to increase workers salaries so they can purchase more and spur hiring in the lower-tier jobs. We're going to have to do this with the cunning power of math. More people with a little more money creating more demand. That payroll tax cut is a great example, but we have to add more things to it, and offer more incentives to spur spending.

We have two choices. Government spending or consumer spending. We have to increase one or both. We can't cut and save our way out of a decline. Nor should we solely focus on government spending, especially with a yearly $1 trillion revenue shortfall.

We're all going to have to compromise on whatever strongly held principles we have on taxes, spending, welfare and all of that. This whole do nothing congress sh*t has got to stop. We've got to be adults here and honestly sit down with some real numbers and figure out the best way forward. We can't have a command economy, but we can and should guide that economy in a way that best serves all of our citizens while not encroaching too much on the entrepreneurial spirit.

We all want America to be successful and for these people not to need any federal help (Even early SS benefits). It's going to take an act of god for us to work together to make that happen. I'm not very optimistic, but I've not given up hope.
 
2012-06-10 10:11:05 AM  
and people think California is nuts
 
2012-06-10 10:11:43 AM  
Time to fire up the time portal:
southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com

/goobacks took our jerbs.
 
2012-06-10 10:15:18 AM  

NewportBarGuy: We're all going to have to compromise on whatever strongly held principles we have on taxes


The only people who don't have to compromise at all are the entire farking problem. Crazy how that works, huh?
 
2012-06-10 10:15:30 AM  
In before the "Bush's fault'" crowd.
 
2012-06-10 10:16:52 AM  
After Ron Paul gets into office every American will get the only stimulus package they need- a copy of Atlas Shrugged along with a link for digital download.
 
2012-06-10 10:18:35 AM  
If there was only some sort of underground economy one could work for...
 
2012-06-10 10:19:09 AM  
davidszondy.com
 
2012-06-10 10:19:21 AM  
The 'service economy' was a hilarious notion back to when Clinton was it's apostle. Apparently it's based on the perspective developing nations are too stupid to take the same management and accounting courses as developed, so they'll build things and we'll manage them. It's such a slam dunk we can toss educational requirements and border tariffs.
Reap - sow.
 
2012-06-10 10:20:56 AM  
It's Bush's fault
 
2012-06-10 10:21:18 AM  
Thanks to Kickstarter, the future is all steam punk eBooks, indie zombie movies about how much we hate our parents and Apple i-lifestyle accessories.
 
2012-06-10 10:21:45 AM  
So its above people that are over 60 to group together and get a house and help each other out? I am not moving out of my starter house and paying this off. Its not a bad size three bedrooms and that will keep my costs down. Also havingg kids at an older age helps as well. When im 60 my youngest will be 20 and we can pool together like they used to. I got the rooms and can cook and do your laundry. You pay some rent and come and go as you please. its time to go back to the ways that worked for years. Extended families are going to have to have a comeback.
 
2012-06-10 10:22:46 AM  

SockMonkeyHolocaust: After Ron Paul gets into office every American will get the only stimulus package they need- a copy of Atlas Shrugged along with a link for digital download.


You might as well give people a copy of Battlefield Earth, and automatically put the movie in their Netflix queue. They would run screaming from their home, directly to the employment office.
 
2012-06-10 10:23:56 AM  

moefuggenbrew: It's Bush's fault


Depends on which Bush you're talking about. Back in 1988, Bush Sr. said "I would like to see this nation's wealth in fewer, righter, tighter hands".
No one could reasonably contend that that has not been achieved.
 
2012-06-10 10:24:12 AM  
Obama's America is going to bring us all closer together!

See, it's working!
 
2012-06-10 10:25:36 AM  

Snarfangel: You might as well give people a copy of Battlefield Earth, and automatically put the movie in their Netflix queue. They would run screaming from their home, directly to the employment office.


Somewhere out there is the zygote that will one day prove Ron Paul to be left wing. That whole sum of government assistance under him will be a postcard printed in that dotmatrix-ey kind of font with faded ink and that postcard will have the words "boot straps"
 
2012-06-10 10:26:04 AM  
@NewportBarGuy: I think you're right. So, financially, I need to have approximately 2.5 million in savings and investments in order to retire on an income of $40,000 a year. . . If I want to retire at a reasonable age.

Based on my current stock portfolio, this means I need to set aside more than $7,000 a year.

This is getting ridiculous. Not only are employers rarely providing retirement plans or matching 401k contributions, they're also withholding raises more often.

Unfortunately, my 401k rests entirely on my ability to foresee the future in order to avoid the next Enron disaster. 2011 was the first time I saw significant growth in my portfolio since the recession and it's been turning an impressive profit thus far . . . But relying on a 401k or Roth as a retirement income is a stupid idea.

Apparently, so is buying international debt at times.

We're in serious trouble.
 
2012-06-10 10:28:36 AM  

jso2897: moefuggenbrew: It's Bush's fault

Depends on which Bush you're talking about. Back in 1988, Bush Sr. said "I would like to see this nation's wealth in fewer, righter, tighter hands".
No one could reasonably contend that that has not been achieved.


Yes, what this country needs is more millionaire democrats who "feel your pain".
 
2012-06-10 10:30:17 AM  
My retirement is predicated on everyone's copies of the Death of Superman and Spawn #1 suddenly and irreversibly disappearing. Also, a CLERKS comic book #1, first printing that I wrote FIRST PRINTING, MINT across the cover in Sharpie.
 
2012-06-10 10:33:35 AM  

leevis: jso2897: moefuggenbrew: It's Bush's fault

Depends on which Bush you're talking about. Back in 1988, Bush Sr. said "I would like to see this nation's wealth in fewer, righter, tighter hands".
No one could reasonably contend that that has not been achieved.

Yes, what this country needs is more millionaire democrats who "feel your pain".


Well, if you are capable of simple arithmetic, you have to realize that the rich can't keep getting richer, and the poor poorer, forever. It isn't mathematically possible.
Would your proposal be to not view it as a problem, and simply let matters take their course?
That's potentially a rather robust program. Generally, most of the people I see proposing "laissez faire" solutions aren't nearly hard enough to live through them.
 
2012-06-10 10:34:17 AM  
A rightfully deserved fate for somebody who never worked a full year in her life! Just another Lib who thinks the world should be served to her on a silver platter of entitlement.

But after losing her job as an executive assistant at an advertising agency in 2008...

Oh, huh... Okay, I bet she just sat on her ass collecting those fat unemployment checks while living on my dime!

...she searched fruitlessly for full-time work and exhausted her unemployment benefits.

Ah, hmm... Well, she'd be fine if she had the foresight to actually save and not live beyond her means!

For a while, she strung together odd jobs and lived off her 401(k) retirement and profit-sharing accounts. Then, this year, with her savings depleted and no job offers in sight, she reluctantly applied for Social Security.

Eh, well, she should... Was she... Rush Limbaugh said that... Uhh...
 
2012-06-10 10:34:48 AM  

SockMonkeyHolocaust: My retirement is predicated on everyone's copies of the Death of Superman and Spawn #1 suddenly and irreversibly disappearing. Also, a CLERKS comic book #1, first printing that I wrote FIRST PRINTING, MINT across the cover in Sharpie.


Have you considered Facebook? I hear that's really hot these days.
 
2012-06-10 10:36:45 AM  

attention span of a retarded fruit fly: So its above people that are over 60 to group together and get a house and help each other out? I am not moving out of my starter house and paying this off. Its not a bad size three bedrooms and that will keep my costs down. Also havingg kids at an older age helps as well. When im 60 my youngest will be 20 and we can pool together like they used to. I got the rooms and can cook and do your laundry. You pay some rent and come and go as you please. its time to go back to the ways that worked for years. Extended families are going to have to have a comeback.


`
That's a pretty good description of Spain today, seems their problem is there are no jobs so the 20 & 30 year old kids still live at home.
 
2012-06-10 10:41:48 AM  
I am tending to beleive in the the inevitable need for a re-emergence of extended families. Which I think will ultimately be a good thing, in a humanitarian kind if way. The problem is that while the "west" would be "returning" to this system, newly developed cultures will be simultaneously abandoning it. We will be in effect watching these cultures go through the same irresponsible, egocentric, adolescence that we've been going through and that have brought us to where we are now.
Hopefully, their parents fought them better.
 
2012-06-10 10:42:16 AM  
I'm in my sixties, and have just been laid off, and am getting a kick ..etc

Yes, I had a retirement plan, but it relied on a few more years of work.

Whoever created the 401K idea should have been hung from the nearest lamp post.
 
2012-06-10 10:44:03 AM  
/taught
 
2012-06-10 10:46:37 AM  

jso2897: Have you considered Facebook? I hear that's really hot these days.


I just want to say one word to you. Just one word. Are you listening?

Bitcoins.
 
2012-06-10 10:49:56 AM  
To save money, she has canceled the data plan on her BlackBerry

On Social Security and living in a trailer. Why does she need a Blackberry in the first place?
 
2012-06-10 10:51:05 AM  

moefuggenbrew: It's Bush's fault


Pubes never hurt anyone.
 
2012-06-10 10:52:14 AM  
Extended families are going to have to have a comeback.

You're way behind the trend.

First it was me and my ex. We moved in with my mom. But black folks are always the last hired and first fired. The black families were doubling up - adult children moving back home. We could have started a club: Black folks who got "down sized" and had to move back home.

It took another three years and the crash of 2008 before shiat really got bad for white folks and now there isn't a single family on this block, white, black or any shade in between that doesn't have a multi-generational household.

Not a single one.

I told my ex two years ago that I wanted to break up, but we couldn't afford to. We had to save up, wait for my retraining, and for both of us to get relatively stable jobs before he was finally able to get an apartment of his own last month.

I still help him out with food and gas money because times are still tough and he's just getting on his feet. In exchange, he's gonna do the same for me when I move out next year and we both help our daughter with her expenses at college and do house and yard work for my mom so she doesn't have to pay anyone.

We've had to work harder together to live apart than we ever did to stay together.

Sadly, it was my idea to work it out like this and I got the idea after reading an article about how couples who couldn't afford to break up managed during the Depression.

Better times are ahead, I hope.
 
2012-06-10 10:52:22 AM  

SockMonkeyHolocaust: Bitcoins.


Responsible people put all their money into GPUs to mine bitcoins. There's just no way it can backfire.
 
2012-06-10 10:52:27 AM  

wambu: moefuggenbrew: It's Bush's fault

Pubes never hurt anyone.


They'll poke your eye out
 
2012-06-10 10:54:07 AM  
All I gotta say is boot straps. Chinese made bootstraps. Guaranteed to not break until you least expect it bootstraps. Made by the tenderest, most violated children Jiangsu province can dump into the factories bootstraps. No union slobs touched these bootstraps. It's pure USA (made in China) pride oozing out of these bootstraps. Just buy a few pairs, climb on a chair, wrap them around the nearest high rafter or pipe, tie off to your neck, and jump. All your problems solved.

Bootstraps.
 
2012-06-10 10:57:12 AM  

wambu: To save money, she has canceled the data plan on her BlackBerry

On Social Security and living in a trailer. Why does she need a Blackberry in the first place?


Who would need it more? She's still looking for work.
 
2012-06-10 10:59:23 AM  

Hermione_Granger: Better times are ahead, I hope.


I think this is the first time Ive ever hugged someone on Fark. ((((HUGS))))

One foot in front of the other.
 
2012-06-10 11:01:10 AM  
"Clare Keany lives in a tiny mobile home in California, barely getting by on little more than $1,082 a month from Social Security"

Tiny my azz that there is a double wide! What more does she want? She had a nice crib, beautiful weather, all the low cost illegal labor i.e. housekeeper-gardener-handyman she needs, plus over a $1000.00 a month to go crazy on!
Some people are never happy.

Obama loves you...
 
2012-06-10 11:02:44 AM  
A trailer out in the desert where she can fire off all the weapons she wants at whatever she wants and host year-round Burning Man Burns? Sounds like heaven.
 
2012-06-10 11:05:14 AM  
"barely getting by on little more than $1,082 a month"

Lady, I don't even GROSS that much on my full time ebay thing some months, although it's been getting better. Don't know what kind of debt she's in for her residence or whatever, but she could be far worse off. And I hate being the person to say that, since I'm moderate liberal and support keeping social security as is.

I dunno, I took a crappy delivery job here for a while since there aren't many jobs I am qualified for locally (husband's job is great so I agreed to move here). After I had to have surgery and be out of work, and the job was really bugging me anyway, I set up my own thing. Even though it's been slow going I'm a lot happier. I'm sure some will argue I'm wrong and that it's too hard to get into, but I suspect most people who can't find jobs need to figure out what they're good at and start a small business. Even with the high failure rate, the SBA and some other groups help some and there are tons of learning resources free online now. Mine doesn't have a lot of longevity, but down the line I might start another one after I go back to school this fall.
 
2012-06-10 11:05:27 AM  

KimNorth: "Clare Keany lives in a tiny mobile home in California, barely getting by on little more than $1,082 a month from Social Security"

Tiny my azz that there is a double wide! What more does she want? She had a nice crib, beautiful weather, all the low cost illegal labor i.e. housekeeper-gardener-handyman she needs, plus over a $1000.00 a month to go crazy on!
Some people are never happy.

Obama loves you...


i18.photobucket.com

Obedience

The master Bankei's talks were attended not only by Zen students but by persons of all ranks and sects. He never quoted sutras not indulged in scholastic dissertations. Instead, his words were spoken directly from his heart to the hearts of his listeners.

His large audience angered a priest of the Nichiren sect because the adherents had left to hear about Zen. The self-centered Nichiren priest came to the temple, determined to have a debate with Bankei.

"Hey, Zen teacher!" he called out. "Wait a minute. Whoever respects you will obey what you say, but a man like myself does not respect you. Can you make me obey you?"

"Come up beside me and I will show you," said Bankei.

Proudly the priest pushed his way through the crowd to the teacher.

Bankei smiled. "Come over to my left side."

The priest obeyed.

"No," said Bankei, "we may talk better if you are on the right side. Step over here."

The priest proudly stepped over to the right.

"You see," observed Bankei, "you are obeying me and I think you are a very gentle person. Now sit down and listen."
 
2012-06-10 11:06:22 AM  
All I can say is, I've been there, done that, and have paid for the crappy tee shirt. Horrible. I think about how my grandma lived-very little Social Security money but her small house was paid off and she managed ok. Nowadays that's nowhere near the reality. If the old man and I don't watch ourselves, we'll be homeless when we retire-if we retire but he does a physical job and will eventually have to move to another field and me, I'm an office drone who even in my late 30's is finding it difficult to keep up and compete with the kids out there. We won't be doomed because we've been smart and have planned (and live in an itty bitty house in da 'hood, which we love) but, we'll be lucky if we can make it without losing our hard fought for freedom and peace by the time he's retirement age and I won't be too far behind. We're both lucky to have jobs at our ages-I see kids all the time in and out of my office and some of them are making more money than I am. It's scary and we're trying to stay aggressive in our middle age to ensure we have jobs and are hireable well into our 60s. We hope. Really what I hope for is the hipsterization of my neighborhood in the next 15 years so we can sell this place and buy a loft/condo downtown. It has happened before and will probably happen again, knowing how Denver is.
 
2012-06-10 11:14:59 AM  
Some Farker said this a while back, and it seemed far too appropriate for this thread:
crow202.org
 
2012-06-10 11:15:03 AM  

One Bad Apple: wambu: moefuggenbrew: It's Bush's fault

Pubes never hurt anyone.

They'll poke your eye out


You're doing it wrong.
 
2012-06-10 11:15:48 AM  

ladyfortuna: people who can't find jobs need to figure out what they're good at and start a small business.


This...Good for you!
It worked for me and takes a few years to get going full speed but if you're smart and start while your still getting unemployment it takes the sting away.
 
2012-06-10 11:16:15 AM  
I was just amazed at how she went through her life savings in a single year and used her entire retirement savings in a single year. I'm sure the extra 20% would have made a huge difference and allowed that money she spent in 1 year to be stretched over the 23 years.

Social Security is a retirement supplement. It's not supposed to be your primary source of income.

/If she is so hard pressed for money, why is she flying when she could take a bus for a lot less or drive herself for a lot less. FL to NC is not that far.
//She just sounds like a lady who's really bad with money.
///$1,082 - $336(rent and utilities) = $746 / month for food and everything else
 
2012-06-10 11:19:15 AM  
White people problems. "I had to go on Social Security _early_"
 
2012-06-10 11:19:55 AM  

Bontesla: @NewportBarGuy: I think you're right. So, financially, I need to have approximately 2.5 million in savings and investments in order to retire on an income of $40,000 a year. . . If I want to retire at a reasonable age.

Based on my current stock portfolio, this means I need to set aside more than $7,000 a year.

This is getting ridiculous. Not only are employers rarely providing retirement plans or matching 401k contributions, they're also withholding raises more often.

Unfortunately, my 401k rests entirely on my ability to foresee the future in order to avoid the next Enron disaster. 2011 was the first time I saw significant growth in my portfolio since the recession and it's been turning an impressive profit thus far . . . But relying on a 401k or Roth as a retirement income is a stupid idea.

Apparently, so is buying international debt at times.

We're in serious trouble.


Yeah, it's a shame that we may not get rewarded for our frugality with free money any more.

In a finite world there is going to be a day when the growth stops. When that happens all our growth-based economic tricks are going to break down.
 
2012-06-10 11:22:07 AM  

attention span of a retarded fruit fly: So its above people that are over 60 to group together and get a house and help each other out? I am not moving out of my starter house and paying this off. Its not a bad size three bedrooms and that will keep my costs down. Also havingg kids at an older age helps as well. When im 60 my youngest will be 20 and we can pool together like they used to. I got the rooms and can cook and do your laundry. You pay some rent and come and go as you please. its time to go back to the ways that worked for years. Extended families are going to have to have a comeback.


I really like this concept, but I like my son, worked/ing real hard to raise him right.

What if you hate your family? Do you just adopt other family-less folks who you get on with?

I also think this would teach future generations to be less selfish and more community minded as they will have to learn to share space and resources.
 
2012-06-10 11:22:14 AM  

NewportBarGuy: We're all going to have to compromise on whatever strongly held principles we have on taxes, spending, welfare and all of that. This whole do nothing congress sh*t has got to stop. We've got to be adults here and honestly sit down with some real numbers and figure out the best way forward. We can't have a command economy, but we can and should guide that economy in a way that best serves all of our citizens while not encroaching too much on the entrepreneurial spirit.

We all want America to be successful and for these people not to need any federal help (Even early SS benefits). It's going to take an act of god for us to work together to make that happen. I'm not very optimistic, but I've not given up hope.


Adam Davidson (from NPR's Planet Money) is one of many who have been looking at this issue for a while now and many of the PM podcasts have focused on it, and he wrote an excellent article in the Atlantic about it. And while it's clearly a simplified list, he's boiled it down to three things...

Fix the deficit: We're in a mess that was created by people effectively double-dipping (using tomorrow's money to pay for today's spending, but still expecting tomorrow's money to be there). Rather than fixing the fundamentals, we're trimming around the edges. Making the USGS cut its budget 20% isn't going to do anything; we have to get defense and entitlements under control, and make sure the programs we decide to keep are properly funded.

Fix health care: We're in a system which is incentivized not to reduce costs or improve the efficacy of care/services, but rather to rack up as many services (fees) as possible and pass the costs on to the next person. Consumers who are covered have little incentive to forego unnecessary services since they're not really paying for it, and too many others are shut out.

So that addresses money going out, but that doesn't really help the people you mention. The only way to do that is...

Fix education: When you break down the current unemployment numbers, there is a huge difference in the rates among educated and uneducated workers. The days of being able to get a good life-long job with an 8th-grade education are gone, and they're never coming back no matter what policies people might dream up. We need to stop trying to compete on making goods where the only production variable left is labor costs, we're going to lose that battle every time. With a large pool of skilled workers from which to draw, we can compete and succeed making things others can't (at least not nearly as well). Our trade and other policies have put us in a bind; we should have been dumping a boatload of resources and attention into education since the 80s, when the writing was clearly on the wall.

In the long run, education is what's going to provide the resources to get out of the spending dilemma (and hopefully reduce the number of people having to draw from those programs). We need to dramatically change our attitude toward education among the working class, and our attitude toward hard work among the educated class. Education doesn't end with high school, and it's not just for nerds. People need to stop taking pride in their ignorance and we need to flip the dynamic of the dumb jocks being cool and the smart kids being ridiculed. But we also need to instill a good work (as in hands-on work) ethic among the educated. Being educated AND actually making things, as opposed to making money simply by manipulating numbers, can be very rewarding.

Straightforward, yes... but by no means "easy". It's going to take a lot of people having to work a little harder, maybe pay a little more and compromise on a few things. But we do that all the time in life so it's not insurmountable if we can somehow manage to convince people of the tangible benefits of doing so.
 
2012-06-10 11:22:34 AM  

Hermione_Granger: It took another three years and the crash of 2008 before shiat really got bad for white folks and now there isn't a single family on this block, white, black or any shade in between that doesn't have a multi-generational household.


Yep. As of 2010, 4.4 million U.S. homes held three generations or more under one roof, a 15% increase from 3.8 million households in just two years (US Census Bureau). I don't see it increasing dramatically here in the SF Bay Area.

The woman is the article doesn't have that option. She is going to need to create an extended family for herself, start over, at the age of 62. (No, I don't mean pregnancy.) I guess building that "family" will be her full time job from now on.
 
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