Why don't we use our drones and hellfires on the cartel leadership?

Hobo Jr.: Or corporate America.

/Did you have rehearsals?

It's weird. It's been years since I've seen that show (let alone that particular episode), but I'll always remember the song.

cman: ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

WTF makes you think Obama would care? What, did he run on a platform of change?

you want a guarantee that you'll be dead, or un...re-electable? start really shakin' things up in your first term.

/not that I think anybody that manages to make it to that level isn't in pocket anyway

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: SuperDuperMatt: Every culture is beautiful. Can't judge. And before you says its polices in the United States that are causing this violence, I like to point out that it isn't out job to police their populous for our policies.

/is for the legalization of marijuana

The land currently known as Mexico has a long and well-documented history or barbaric violence. It's no surprise that they're simply following the same traditions of their ancestry.

...but is it surprising at all... that while it isn't our job to police the populace of the Mexico, we are courtesy of the DEA and the BATF? or that Dow Jones has not bothered to examine his own history, as a citizen of the United States, prior to calling any other culture barbaric?

At some point, even in a democracy, there comes a time when you just have to do some extermination. They know who the cartels are. Just kill them. Use overwhelming force and just destroy them in one fell swoop.

Or, even better, tell the USA to f*ck itself and make drugs legal.

ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

The President does not make domestic policy. That's congress, which is currently deadlocked by a bunch of barely literate randians who dream of being just like the leaders of those cartels.

JasonOfOrillia: cman: ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

WTF makes you think Obama would care? What, did he run on a platform of change?

Right, because the cartels wouldn't just move more cocaine or meth or illegals across.

I'm so sick of this "meth is from Mexico" myth. Meth is an American product. I think some rural areas may have almost as many meth houses as people.

oldtaku: SuperT: I can not believe that the United States Government will long tolerate what is basically a lawless criminal army to operate in a neighboring country.

I don't see why not. As long as it only spills slightly into the four border states they just don't care. It's much more profitable to not piss off Mexico by interfering with their 'internal affairs'. To get to the ultimate point, how would going into Mexico to take down the drug lords improve Obama's election chances? Negatively. So forget it. (I'm not Republican either, there are several good self-serving reasons for them to let this go on, too.)

The first step would need to secure the borders, which the liberals will never do. Votes are more important than safety and peace.

Happy Hours: JasonOfOrillia: cman: ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

WTF makes you think Obama would care? What, did he run on a platform of change?

Right, because the cartels wouldn't just move more cocaine or meth or illegals across.

They can only move so much. They still get most of their money from marijuana. People aren't going to suddenly start hoovering up cocaine if marijuana is made legal.

To argue over whatever their main source of income is moot, since this violence has been going on in that region for over 2000 years. It has always been criminals that will kill to continue for illegal profits. The source of income will change but the why and how they kill has not changed. The earliest gang in that region is referred to as 'Band of Gadianton' dating back to bc years. I'll let you get back to your moot arguement for it will surely stop someone from dying today, right.

SuperT: I don't know. but turmoil and strife won't respect a fence and a line in the dirt.

That depends on the depth of the line you draw.



While I am all for ending the drug war, I really don't care for ending it just on Mexico's behalf. Its not like the Cartels won't find a new money source if we legalize drugs.
To make things worse, the locals prefer to write gun laws instead of arming up in self defense. They have zero interest in change and won't be greeting as as liberators for taking out their wealthy criminal sponsors.

If we don't plan to invade and we don't want their problems here, and we don't want to help in any meaningful way other than to pretend to care about immigrant rights on election day, then what we should do is draw a DMZ between us and them to contain the mess on their side.
Every other nation can make lines like this on the cheap, so we need to stop pretending its some kind of engineering impossibility to install a thousand mile wide killing field.

Stop using illegal immigrants as wage slaves, stop the badlands smuggling, stop the cross border skirmishes and force all interaction between our nations to go through the customs checkpoints like the law dictates.
Depleting the cartels of easy money (cash that is used to bribe the system and pay for these lavish displays of power over the government) is a big step in helping the Mexican people help themselves.

/Probably wont happen because their corruption is crossing the border.
/Democrats will use Republicans as an excuse for not doing anything, Republicans will use Democrats.
/We're supposed to be the idiot voters in the middle that can't see both sides are already on the take.
/...So how is that "Fast and Furious" investigation coming along, anyway?

Lunaville: I'm so sick of this "meth is from Mexico" myth. Meth is an American product. I think some rural areas may have almost as many meth houses as people.

Oh really?

There has been an increasing flow of methamphetamines to the United States from Mexico, the the primary source of the drug sold in the United States, according to the U.S. Department of Justice.

The seizure in the above article (15 tons) is almost half of all the meth seized in 2009....IN THE WORLD.

Cross-border methamphetamine trade booms amid Mexico's 'war on drugs'

MorePeasPlease: Britney Spear's Speculum: bestgore.com has alot of the videos of dudes getting beheaded. In one video, the dude got his throat slit and you could hear him trying to inhale and the blood filling his lungs. Then the dudes cutting his head off where whackin' at this cervical spine. The poor dude's hands keep raising up with every whack like it was a reflex move. Kinda sick.

I thought you were about to link the live chainsaw decapitation.

Glad i'm not the only one that thought that.

ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

rigghhht. because one pot is legal, all of these crimes will stop because they will just move on to become normal upstanding citizens.

/this is what pot heads believe

Britney Spear's Speculum: bestgore.com has alot of the videos of dudes getting beheaded. In one video, the dude got his throat slit and you could hear him trying to inhale and the blood filling his lungs. Then the dudes cutting his head off where whackin' at this cervical spine. The poor dude's hands keep raising up with every whack like it was a reflex move. Kinda sick.



Kinda?

JasonOfOrillia: cman: ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

WTF makes you think Obama would care? What, did he run on a platform of change?

Right, because the cartels wouldn't just move more cocaine or meth or illegals across.

Fallacious; those demands are already met. Moving more product won't make more users.

lack of warmth: Happy Hours: JasonOfOrillia: cman: ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

WTF makes you think Obama would care? What, did he run on a platform of change?

Right, because the cartels wouldn't just move more cocaine or meth or illegals across.

They can only move so much. They still get most of their money from marijuana. People aren't going to suddenly start hoovering up cocaine if marijuana is made legal.

To argue over whatever their main source of income is moot, since this violence has been going on in that region for over 2000 years. It has always been criminals that will kill to continue for illegal profits. The source of income will change but the why and how they kill has not changed. The earliest gang in that region is referred to as 'Band of Gadianton' dating back to bc years. I'll let you get back to your moot arguement for it will surely stop someone from dying today, right.

You sound Morman

tenpoundsofcheese: ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

rigghhht. because one pot is legal, all of these crimes will stop because they will just move on to become normal upstanding citizens.

/this is what pot heads believe

No, it's not. It's your stupid strawman.

Legalizing pot would take a lot of income away from them. Deny that and you're a fool, marijuana is ridiculously profitable. American prices are through the goddamn roof.

No matter what the consequences, human beings will continue to cross each other, whether it's the law or other law breakers, because (1) There is profit in it balanced by risks of getting caught or (2) they believe strongly that the rule enforcers are power-hungry and full of shiat.

The world has seen societies where petty theft resulted in long imprisonment, torture or death, yet there was still petty theft.

The root cause of the problem needs to be eliminated, or people will continue to die. But unfortunately the brains of the stubborn old rich men that we choose as our leaders (and the senile old fools that support them) just aren't wired that way.

LavenderWolf: tenpoundsofcheese: ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

rigghhht. because one pot is legal, all of these crimes will stop because they will just move on to become normal upstanding citizens.

/this is what pot heads believe

Legalizing pot would take a lot of income away from them. Deny that and you're a fool, marijuana is ridiculously profitable. American prices are through the goddamn roof.

got it. so these people will just sit idly by and watch a lot of their income get taken away and they will do nothing, nothing at all to make up for it...except maybe take another 9-5 job to make up for the loss of income.

/this is what pot heads believe.

tenpoundsofcheese: got it. so these people will just sit idly by and watch a lot of their income get taken away and they will do nothing, nothing at all to make up for it...except maybe take another 9-5 job to make up for the loss of income.

/this is what pot heads believe.

So what do you think they will do? They can try to smuggle more cocaine, heroin and meth but there's only so much demand for those drugs.

They fought the law and the law took their heads one by one.

Our drug policy created these monsters, and now it is our responsibility to dismantle both the policy and the cartels themselves.

/more concerned with cartels than terrorists

bmr68: They fought the law and the law took their heads one by one.

okay, that was good.

also, subby, great headline.

tenpoundsofcheese: LavenderWolf: tenpoundsofcheese: ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

rigghhht. because one pot is legal, all of these crimes will stop because they will just move on to become normal upstanding citizens.

/this is what pot heads believe

Legalizing pot would take a lot of income away from them. Deny that and you're a fool, marijuana is ridiculously profitable. American prices are through the goddamn roof.

got it. so these people will just sit idly by and watch a lot of their income get taken away and they will do nothing, nothing at all to make up for it...except maybe take another 9-5 job to make up for the loss of income.

/this is what pot heads believe.

It will require more than just an income reduction to take down organizations of this size. It might be a good training exercise for international special forces teams. A few Bin Laden style headline raids might make many of their employees think twice about their career paths, further weakening the ability of these groups to rule local politics.

To continue to stand by and do nothing as you apparently prefer is outright immoral.

Lunaville: JasonOfOrillia: cman: ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

WTF makes you think Obama would care? What, did he run on a platform of change?

Right, because the cartels wouldn't just move more cocaine or meth or illegals across.

I'm so sick of this "meth is from Mexico" myth. Meth is an American product. I think some rural areas may have almost as many meth houses as people.

meth is a german product. gotta keep them awake in the trenches some how.

from talking to someone i once worked with, it was also used on the 101st airborne; 1 pill when you jump, 1 pill when you land.

meth used to be mainly big in the sw of u.s.; it hit big in utah eventually ( i unfortunatly lived there at the time), now it seems to be migrating east.

ThomasHayden: Hand Banana: Britney Spear's Speculum: bestgore.com has alot of the videos of dudes getting beheaded. In one video, the dude got his throat slit and you could hear him trying to inhale and the blood filling his lungs. Then the dudes cutting his head off where whackin' at this cervical spine. The poor dude's hands keep raising up with every whack like it was a reflex move. Kinda sick.

Here's the video nsfw

I'll never understand why or how people can or want to watch that stuff.

it's one thing to hear about the violence, but it's easy to dismiss. after you watch something like that you have much more empathy and understanding. about what is actually going on. it's terrible and imo more people need to see it, like more people need to see the innocent and soldiers alike killed abroad, so they cant dismiss it and go on watching the Kardashions or some shiat. and maybe, just maybe people will start to do shiat about it.

That would just desensitize them.

I'd rather see direct paycheck deduction lines relative to the costs of ongoing and past wars. If people had a clue what they spend on shiat, they would make better consumer decisions.

ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

Came here to say this.

But yesterday i read this ignorant and manipulative piece of journalism that took away my hope for any change:
Link

JasonOfOrillia: cman: ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

WTF makes you think Obama would care? What, did he run on a platform of change?

Right, because the cartels wouldn't just move more cocaine or meth or illegals across.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this. lifting prohibition is not a panacea.

ExperianScaresCthulhu: JasonOfOrillia: cman: ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

WTF makes you think Obama would care? What, did he run on a platform of change?

Right, because the cartels wouldn't just move more cocaine or meth or illegals across.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this. lifting prohibition is not a panacea.

You really think they're not moving as much as they can already?

Legalization won't solve all the problems with drug cartels but by your logic maybe we should make alcohol illegal again so that the cartels would be too busy smuggling tequila to bother with cocaine and meth.

SuperT: fastbow: SuperT: I can not believe that the United States Government will long tolerate what is basically a lawless criminal army to operate in a neighboring country.

Mexico seems to basically be in a state of civil war, the US can't ignore it forever.

What do you want us to do, invade Mexico? Seems like we end up doing it once a century anyway, and with 2015 rolling up, we're about due to do it again.

/set your watch by Mexico's revolutions...

I don't know. but turmoil and strife won't respect a fence and a line in the dirt.

I agree. Something must be done. However, as much as I support kicking Mexico and the Cartels in the teeth, I don't think an invasion is necessarily the right thing to do. Because of current thought processes, any invasion of Mexico right now would be more of a Pershing-style invasion, and less of a Mexican War scenario. And frankly, a Mexican War scenario is closer to what we need. But then, we'd have to out up with protests and riots that put Vietnam to shame, and possibly an insurrection in our own borders if we invaded Mexico. Those La Raza gits and their ilk wouldn't take kindly to us for invading the greatest nation on earth - in their minds - and would probably sieze the opportunity to try to reclaim California and the Southwest.

Is an invasion what we need? Maybe. Maybe not. But it's better than what we're doing now, which is turning a blind eye to the problem while simultaneously arming both sides.

Tatterdemalian: SanjiSasuke: See the way that they should deal with them is:
[tml.travellercentral.com image 400x209]

Or something of its...caliber.

/pinkie to mouth

Eric Holder already sold them all to the drug cartels. How do you think they got the firepower to hold off the Mexican Army?

That Holder... Time travelling back to 2006 to and convincing the ATF to start gun walking operations. What a mastermind!

You'd think that much devious planning would lead to more than 2000 guns sent over.

ryarger: Tatterdemalian: SanjiSasuke: See the way that they should deal with them is:
[tml.travellercentral.com image 400x209]

Or something of its...caliber.

/pinkie to mouth

Eric Holder already sold them all to the drug cartels. How do you think they got the firepower to hold off the Mexican Army?

That Holder... Time travelling back to 2006 to and convincing the ATF to start gun walking operations. What a mastermind!

You'd think that much devious planning would lead to more than 2000 guns sent over.

The gun walking programs under the Bush Administration were actually monitored and conducted with the cooperation of Mexican officials. 450 guns slipped away before the ATF realized it was a bad idea and put the kibosh on it. Then under Obama and Holder, they started the program again with less oversight, a different objective, and no Mexican assistance.

So no, it wasn't Holder's idea. He just found a bad idea and made it even worse.

ryarger: Tatterdemalian: SanjiSasuke: See the way that they should deal with them is:
[tml.travellercentral.com image 400x209]

Or something of its...caliber.

/pinkie to mouth

Eric Holder already sold them all to the drug cartels. How do you think they got the firepower to hold off the Mexican Army?

That Holder... Time travelling back to 2006 to and convincing the ATF to start gun walking operations. What a mastermind!

You'd think that much devious planning would lead to more than 2000 guns sent over.

Because "gun walking" operations that didn't involve guns actually being sold to cartels were identical to "Fast and Furious" operations that intentionally sold guns to the cartels.

/except they weren't identical
//the difference is approximately 800 additional homicides per year

Tatterdemalian: Because "gun walking" operations that didn't involve guns actually being sold to cartels were identical to "Fast and Furious" operations that intentionally sold guns to the cartels.

/except they weren't identical
//the difference is approximately 800 additional homicides per year

Why do you think you can directly attribute cartel murders to a tiny percentage increase in guns being sold to them?

First off, we are talking about motherfarking cartels. You think they can't kill people without guns? Second, you think they couldn't have bought more guns elsewhere?

These are criminal organizations with ridiculous amounts of money. They buy as many guns as they feel they need to kill the people they want to kill. a couple thousand guns put on the market to be sold to them is probably not enough to even affect the price of these weapons, let alone the ability of these bastards to get their hands on them.

Mind you, none of that is intended as support of Holder, whether he initiated any of these ops directly, or just sat by and let them happen and then lied/stayed quiet about them after.

But frankly, this whole "zomg fast and furious" thing is the biggest most ridiculous red herring of all farking time. OF. ALL. TIME. The same political faction that has repeatedly said "guns don't kill people, people do", who've said "you can't control gun sales, 2nd amendment!", who've argued against any gun control whatsoever as ineffective; these people are the ones claiming a tiny increase in guns through a botched operation is this great big conspiracy. These are the same folks who are the first in line to start entire wars we don't need to be a part of, to sell arms to other countries. The other side, the filthy pussy-ass liberals who are constantly demonized for their hippy peacenik attitudes, they are the only ones who won't be massive hypocrites for complaining here. AND, these are the folks who've been actively against the drug war my entire life (obviously, not so much their party, but there are certainly more liberals against the drug war than conservatives).

So now, all of a sudden, we are going to pretend that you can actually place blame for lives lost due to guns because a couple thousand got sold to criminal organizations who buy back the very weapons their own country's police force seizes from them? Who have operatives within the mexican military? Bull. farking. shiat. This drug war has been a boondoggle my entire life, one that I've spoken out against and been insulted by every conservative I know for doing so. Frankly, anyone who wants to biatch about Fast and Furious while having no interest in ending this war can go fark themselves with a piece of splintered wood.

Well at this rate we won't need that fence. There won't be anybody left to jump it.

I recommend El Narco: Mexico's Criminal Insurgency for an explanation of this. For all you people claiming that the Mexican government needs to "crack down" on the narcos, that's most of why things are so violent.

bmr68: They fought the law and the law took their heads one by one.

Thanks BTW. I appreciate it!

ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

really?
not that i give a damn either way about the legal status of pot here in the US.. but uh.... last i checked this was a mexico problem. not a US problem. seems to me that as long as its illegal in mexico these atrocities will continue.
your move logic.

Smackledorfer: First off, we are talking about motherfarking cartels. You think they can't kill people without guns? Second, you think they couldn't have bought more guns elsewhere?

The statistics say "nowhere near as many," on both counts. Obviously you're an anti-gun liberal, poorly trying to impersonate a strawman NRA member screaming "GUNS R GOOD FOR EVERYWUN, EVEN MURDERERS!" because that's all you can perceive them as. The real NRA has a much more nuanced view than your simple black-and-white, us and them mentality, and doesn't favor handing military grade machine guns to known criminals, no matter how many times you scream "ZOMG HYPOCRISY!"

Tatterdemalian: Smackledorfer: First off, we are talking about motherfarking cartels. You think they can't kill people without guns? Second, you think they couldn't have bought more guns elsewhere?

The statistics say "nowhere near as many," on both counts. Obviously you're an anti-gun liberal, poorly trying to impersonate a strawman NRA member screaming "GUNS R GOOD FOR EVERYWUN, EVEN MURDERERS!" because that's all you can perceive them as. The real NRA has a much more nuanced view than your simple black-and-white, us and them mentality, and doesn't favor handing military grade machine guns to known criminals, no matter how many times you scream "ZOMG HYPOCRISY!"

Oh? Show me the statistic that the cartels would have been capped on available guns to purchase without fast and furious.

also, where the fark did you get "guns are good for everyone" out of my post?

tenpoundsofcheese: bmr68: They fought the law and the law took their heads one by one.

Thanks BTW. I appreciate it!

np enjoy

I'm not sure that legalizing weed would really fix the problem, although I'm all for it.

Mexico is really a concentrated version of what's wrong with our country and where we are headed. The divide between rich and poor is HUGE in Mexico. The poor in Mexico are really, really poor. Like live on the street poor. There is not really any chance to move up in Mexico. You are either born to a wealthy family or you work at a restaurant/run drugs. But we are well on our way here.

LavenderWolf: tenpoundsofcheese: ksdanj: As long as cannabis is listed as Schedule I by the federal government of the United States these atrocities will continue.

Your move, President Obama...

rigghhht. because one pot is legal, all of these crimes will stop because they will just move on to become normal upstanding citizens.

/this is what pot heads believe

No, it's not. It's your stupid strawman.

Legalizing pot would take a lot of income away from them. Deny that and you're a fool, marijuana is ridiculously profitable. American prices are through the goddamn roof.

Lavenderwolf, I like how you think and I totally agree.

majestic: I'm not sure that legalizing weed would really fix the problem, although I'm all for it.

Mexico is really a concentrated version of what's wrong with our country and where we are headed. The divide between rich and poor is HUGE in Mexico. The poor in Mexico are really, really poor. Like live on the street poor. There is not really any chance to move up in Mexico. You are either born to a wealthy family or you work at a restaurant/run drugs. But we are well on our way here.

The richest man in Mexico, Carlos Slim, owns about 5% of the wealth of the entire country. One man. In the United States, it hundreds or maybe even thousands of people.

That kind of illustrates the problem. Mexico's wealth distribution is actually more egalitarian that that of the United States - it's just that most of the people in Mexico are poor, with a very, very few very, very wealthy people. The United States has a middle class to lose, and that's what's scary.

Lord Dimwit: majestic: I'm not sure that legalizing weed would really fix the problem, although I'm all for it.

Mexico is really a concentrated version of what's wrong with our country and where we are headed. The divide between rich and poor is HUGE in Mexico. The poor in Mexico are really, really poor. Like live on the street poor. There is not really any chance to move up in Mexico. You are either born to a wealthy family or you work at a restaurant/run drugs. But we are well on our way here.

The richest man in Mexico, Carlos Slim, owns about 5% of the wealth of the entire country. One man. In the United States, it hundreds or maybe even thousands of people.

That kind of illustrates the problem. Mexico's wealth distribution is actually more egalitarian that that of the United States - it's just that most of the people in Mexico are poor, with a very, very few very, very wealthy people. The United States has a middle class to lose, and that's what's scary.

I think the US would flip its 2A "Tag and bag" switch if we ever got that unbalanced.
You'd have militia roaming the streets for a fraction of the criminal provocation.

In Mexico it sounds like either apathy, ignorance, or maybe this is just their idea of normal.
Whatever it is, they don't seem to care.

hey Pedro, pull yourself together we have to go to work.