Farkin' wetbacks.

Quien?

BigLuca: Quien?

Me gusta.

The Forest Service says Tombstone holds permits for just five springs, and it argues the city is trying to exploit a natural disaster to expand its water system.

While the owl part is interesting, that seems to be the real problem here. The owl is just a rallying point for Conservatives and CNN repeated it for them.

"Tombstone responded by taking the feds to court."

Goooood luck with that!

Owl tacos.

Problem solved.

maxx2112: Owl tacos.

Problem solved.


Fed Bureaucrat Tacos.

Better still.

Amos Quito: maxx2112: Owl tacos.

Problem solved.


Fed Bureaucrat Tacos.

Better still.

Got enough Gas-X for those?

"They live in the desert, they knew what they were getting in to. I say: Let 'em burn!"

The world would be a lot better without immigrants.

For shame - this should have been been done sooner

Fark_Guy_Rob: The world would be a lot better without immigrants.



You sure about that?

Pie.



Owls love pie.

I don't understand why an owl (who flies) would give a shiat about some people fixing a pipeline. No different than a family of bears, or cougars, or whatever wandering by. It's not like the owl is going to self destruct if people wander into the area it -might- be in. It can just fly a short distance to another area.

But the govt. doesn't see it that way and pulls the old

Shut

Down

Everything

trick

Spotted owl could be game-changer in Tombstone water war

Owls? Don't need stinkin' owls!

Fark_Guy_Rob        2012-06-09 01:42:31 PM  
The world would be a lot better without immigrants.

mmm... The US of A would not exist...
You may be right about that.

anfrind: Fark_Guy_Rob: The world would be a lot better without immigrants.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 460x600]

You sure about that?

Speaking as an immigrant; yes. I truly believe the world would be a better place with significantly stricter restrictions on immigration. Every country seems to have it's own workforce displaced by immigrants of poorer countries fighting for low paying, low skill jobs. The increased workforce lowers wages and working conditions. The economic differences of the countries makes the individual immigrant willing to put up with crap conditions and effectively become an indentured servant to companies or individuals who are happy to exploit them. Legal immigrants pay all the same taxes, but rarely get the same benefits as real citizens.

In fact, I pay *MORE* in taxes than a citizen working next to me each day. Except I have virtually no mobility. It's next to impossible for me to change my job and if I lose my job I will be forced to either be a criminal or leave the country. I work extra hours for no pay, and my choice is either 'deal with it' or leave this job and be forced to leave the country. If I lose my job, through no fault of my own - I'm ineligible for social welfare programs that I'm required to pay into.

Beyond that, the legal systems/credit/financial systems just aren't international. Immigrants don't have the same consequences of their actions. When I first came to my new country, I was SHOCKED at how people around me (all immigrants like me) were breaking laws they would NEVER have broken before they were immigrants. I'm not saying the became hardened criminals; but they really did act as if the rules didn't apply to them. Driving without insurance, driving without a valid license, lying about being a 'tourist' and trying to pass off their license as valid, not registering with the local 'police' office (as required for immigrants), intentionally borrowing money and not repaying it, cheating on taxes, etc, etc.... individually maybe none of that sounds bad; but it really is overwhelming. They feel like the laws here aren't 'really' important.

They certainly have no sense of loyalty or devotion to this new country. And neither do I. I'll leave this country for another one at the drop of a hat. 5% raise? Sure, I'm gone. Whatever. I don't care. Do you honestly think that, as an immigrant, I'm going to stick around when times get tough? Heck no.

That doesn't seem like a good foundation for a country.

And, let's not forget about the ridiculousness of immigration laws. Go through that and see how quickly you become cynical and jaded. See, people are split on the immigration issue. You'll have businesses (big ones, with money) who benefit from both illegal immigrants and poor immigrants. They want lax immigration laws. Then you've got hard working locals who want jobs and a high wage. They are mostly against immigration, at least, they are when the immigration threatens their jobs. Then you've got your 'super stars' famous people/athletes/doctors/scientists - most people agree they are good; but there is a lot of disagreement whoever where the bar should be. The result of all these different opinions is a crapfest of laws that make no sense.

Here's a real example - I used to lecture entry-level college classes because I enjoyed it. I also worked full-time. When I moved to my new country, I found a job and got a green card, and was able to start working. But the Green card only allows me to work *THAT* job. I can't work any other job. In fact, I can't legally *earn* any money. But, I have to pay taxes on anything I earn. So, not only can I not work a part-time job, or do a consulting job on the side, or give guitar lessons; I'm also CURRENTLY A CRIMINAL because I have a website that earns a (very tiny) amount of money each month. See, since I reside in this country I can only earn money by working my job; that this government decides they have a shortage in. Dorky websites don't qualify. Earning any money through my website is a crime. I can't do any other work. But, I have to pay taxes on it. If I don't pay taxes on it, I'm breaking the law.

And that's just half the story. Immigration is a GREAT way to keep countries perpetually screwed up. See, you can argue that immigration is good if you focus on a single country. Take the US. The US is pretty awesome. Compared to some 2nd rate, no-name country; the US is amazing. A land of opportunity. Who gets to come to the US? The best, the brightest, the wealthiest. But what about the countries that are 2nd rate, no-name countries? Their citizens who are MOST able to improve their own countries *don't*. They pack up their bags and leave. There are entire countries with (arguably) corrupt governments that use emigration/immigration as a pressure release value. Instead of citizens striving to make a difference, the best and brightest, the most determined and dedicated - they LEAVE.

I really don't see the benefit of immigration.

Fark_Guy_Rob: anfrind: Fark_Guy_Rob: The world would be a lot better without immigrants.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 460x600]

You sure about that?

Speaking as an immigrant; yes. I truly believe the world would be a better place with significantly stricter restrictions on immigration. Every country seems to have it's own workforce displaced by immigrants of poorer countries fighting for low paying, low skill jobs. The increased workforce lowers wages and working conditions. The economic differences of the countries makes the individual immigrant willing to put up with crap conditions and effectively become an indentured servant to companies or individuals who are happy to exploit them. Legal immigrants pay all the same taxes, but rarely get the same benefits as real citizens.

In fact, I pay *MORE* in taxes than a citizen working next to me each day. Except I have virtually no mobility. It's next to impossible for me to change my job and if I lose my job I will be forced to either be a criminal or leave the country. I work extra hours for no pay, and my choice is either 'deal with it' or leave this job and be forced to leave the country. If I lose my job, through no fault of my own - I'm ineligible for social welfare programs that I'm required to pay into.

Beyond that, the legal systems/credit/financial systems just aren't international. Immigrants don't have the same consequences of their actions. When I first came to my new country, I was SHOCKED at how people around me (all immigrants like me) were breaking laws they would NEVER have broken before they were immigrants. I'm not saying the became hardened criminals; but they really did act as if the rules didn't apply to them. Driving without insurance, driving without a valid license, lying about being a 'tourist' and trying to pass off their license as valid, not registering with the local 'police' office (as required for immigrants), intentionally borrowing money and not repaying it, cheating on taxes, etc, etc.... individually maybe none of that sounds bad; but it really is overwhelming. They feel like the laws here aren't 'really' important.

They certainly have no sense of loyalty or devotion to this new country. And neither do I. I'll leave this country for another one at the drop of a hat. 5% raise? Sure, I'm gone. Whatever. I don't care. Do you honestly think that, as an immigrant, I'm going to stick around when times get tough? Heck no.

That doesn't seem like a good foundation for a country.

And, let's not forget about the ridiculousness of immigration laws. Go through that and see how quickly you become cynical and jaded. See, people are split on the immigration issue. You'll have businesses (big ones, with money) who benefit from both illegal immigrants and poor immigrants. They want lax immigration laws. Then you've got hard working locals who want jobs and a high wage. They are mostly against immigration, at least, they are when the immigration threatens their jobs. Then you've got your 'super stars' famous people/athletes/doctors/scientists - most people agree they are good; but there is a lot of disagreement whoever where the bar should be. The result of all these different opinions is a crapfest of laws that make no sense.

Here's a real example - I used to lecture entry-level college classes because I enjoyed it. I also worked full-time. When I moved to my new country, I found a job and got a green card, and was able to start working. But the Green card only allows me to work *THAT* job. I can't work any other job. In fact, I can't legally *earn* any money. But, I have to pay taxes on anything I earn. So, not only can I not work a part-time job, or do a consulting job on the side, or give guitar lessons; I'm also CURRENTLY A CRIMINAL because I have a website that earns a (very tiny) amount of money each month. See, since I reside in this country I can only earn money by working my job; that this government decides they have a shortage in. Dorky websites don't qualify. Earning any money through my website is a crime. I can't do any other work. But, I have to pay taxes on it. If I don't pay taxes on it, I'm breaking the law.

And that's just half the story. Immigration is a GREAT way to keep countries perpetually screwed up. See, you can argue that immigration is good if you focus on a single country. Take the US. The US is pretty awesome. Compared to some 2nd rate, no-name country; the US is amazing. A land of opportunity. Who gets to come to the US? The best, the brightest, the wealthiest. But what about the countries that are 2nd rate, no-name countries? Their citizens who are MOST able to improve their own countries *don't*. They pack up their bags and leave. There are entire countries with (arguably) corrupt governments that use emigration/immigration as a pressure release value. Instead of citizens striving to make a difference, the best and brightest, the most determined and dedicated - they LEAVE.

I really don't see the benefit of immigration.

Wow. An anti immigration rant that actually makes some sense.

wookiemonster: I don't understand why an owl (who flies) would give a shiat about some people fixing a pipeline. No different than a family of bears, or cougars, or whatever wandering by. It's not like the owl is going to self destruct if people wander into the area it -might- be in. It can just fly a short distance to another area.

But the govt. doesn't see it that way and pulls the old

Shut

Down

Everything

trick

Owls build nests; they patrol the area around that nest as their territory. If they are on the PET (protected, endangered and threatened) list, then you cannot disturb them or their habitat without the Forest Service giving you their permission. It's not like a "bear or a cougar just wandering by"; the owls live there and if you make them leave, they may not find another suitable habitat, or they may leave nonflying young or eggs behind.

Bendal: wookiemonster: I don't understand why an owl (who flies) would give a shiat about some people fixing a pipeline. No different than a family of bears, or cougars, or whatever wandering by. It's not like the owl is going to self destruct if people wander into the area it -might- be in. It can just fly a short distance to another area.

But the govt. doesn't see it that way and pulls the old

Shut

Down

Everything

trick

Owls build nests; they patrol the area around that nest as their territory. If they are on the PET (protected, endangered and threatened) list, then you cannot disturb them or their habitat without the Forest Service giving you their permission. It's not like a "bear or a cougar just wandering by"; the owls live there and if you make them leave, they may not find another suitable habitat, or they may leave nonflying young or eggs behind.

Feral house cats. Problem solved.

/sure it's a desert, but night time during the winter is still cold enough that gorillas might freeze to death

Fark_Guy_Rob: anfrind: Fark_Guy_Rob: The world would be a lot better without immigrants.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 460x600]

You sure about that?

Speaking as an immigrant; yes. I truly believe the world would be a better place with significantly stricter restrictions on immigration. Every country seems to have it's own workforce displaced by immigrants of poorer countries fighting for low paying, low skill jobs. The increased workforce lowers wages and working conditions. The economic differences of the countries makes the individual immigrant willing to put up with crap conditions and effectively become an indentured servant to companies or individuals who are happy to exploit them. Legal immigrants pay all the same taxes, but rarely get the same benefits as real citizens.

In fact, I pay *MORE* in taxes than a citizen working next to me each day. Except I have virtually no mobility. It's next to impossible for me to change my job and if I lose my job I will be forced to either be a criminal or leave the country. I work extra hours for no pay, and my choice is either 'deal with it' or leave this job and be forced to leave the country. If I lose my job, through no fault of my own - I'm ineligible for social welfare programs that I'm required to pay into.

Beyond that, the legal systems/credit/financial systems just aren't international. Immigrants don't have the same consequences of their actions. When I first came to my new country, I was SHOCKED at how people around me (all immigrants like me) were breaking laws they would NEVER have broken before they were immigrants. I'm not saying the became hardened criminals; but they really did act as if the rules didn't apply to them. Driving without insurance, driving without a valid license, lying about being a 'tourist' and trying to pass off their license as valid, not registering with the local 'police' office (as required for immigrants), intentionally borrowing money and not repaying it, cheating on taxes, etc, et ...

I'll bet dollars to donuts that you don't have a drop of Native American in you.

best comment in that thread:

So an inferno, massive floods, mudslides and boulders didn't hurt the owl, but people with shovels will cause what, the owls to explode spontaneously? Dolts.

Relocate the damn owls maybe?

Frankly, if someone wants to make a new life for themselves in my country and is willing to support themselves, I want them here. Those sort of risk-takers drive the economy and can be positive forces in the community. The problem with immigration (the REAL problem once you discount all the racism) is the cost via the welfare state. Many programs are inaccessible to non-citizens so it's not as bad as the haters claim -- but many programs ARE, virtually all civic services ARE (think cops, etc) and it DOES represent an unsustainable cost. So chalk up one vote for pro-immigration, anti-SB-1070, I want you here no matter what country you come from, but we need to abolish the welfare state and institute a very simple front-door system (nothing more cumbersome than a card swipe) for the border crossings.

hackhix: best comment in that thread:

So an inferno, massive floods, mudslides and boulders didn't hurt the owl, but people with shovels will cause what, the owls to explode spontaneously? Dolts.

The federal government is not going to violate its own laws (endangered species act). Thinking that they should is basically saying that everyone should only follow laws when they are convenient which defeats the entire purpose of having laws.

It is a land grab on public land which tombstone does not have rights to anymore than I have a right to the land. I have to follow the rules when I am on public land whether I like them or not. I do not think it is unfair to ask cities and large corporations to do the same.

My view of environmental regulations for construction projects on public land: You knew what they were going in, you knew the costs, you knew the risks, and you agreed to them for permission to do the project. I have no sympathy for you not being able to deal with the fact that you did not expect USFWS, BLM, and USFS would hold you to what was agreed upon.

They're stealing our jorbs rodents Jerboas!

FTFM.

You can have immigration or you can have a welfare state.

You can't have both.

violentsalvation: Thorny: hackhix: best comment in that thread:

So an inferno, massive floods, mudslides and boulders didn't hurt the owl, but people with shovels will cause what, the owls to explode spontaneously? Dolts.

The federal government is not going to violate its own laws (endangered species act). Thinking that they should is basically saying that everyone should only follow laws when they are convenient which defeats the entire purpose of having laws.

It is a land grab on public land which tombstone does not have rights to anymore than I have a right to the land. I have to follow the rules when I am on public land whether I like them or not. I do not think it is unfair to ask cities and large corporations to do the same.

My view of environmental regulations for construction projects on public land: You knew what they were going in, you knew the costs, you knew the risks, and you agreed to them for permission to do the project. I have no sympathy for you not being able to deal with the fact that you did not expect USFWS, BLM, and USFS would hold you to what was agreed upon.

Bullshiat. The city of Tombstone has all the documentation and proof they have owned the 25 springs and the right to maintain five acres around each one, as well as 25 feet on either side of the pipeline since 1947 after they bought out the company that installed it in the late 1800's, before the forest service existed.

They have the right to maintain...what maintenance consists of was previously agreed upon with Forest Service...and if they have all of the documentation why don't they show it to the Forest Service? Public pressure is going to be on the side of the pipeline (people like having cheap water more than owls)...which means that they think the environmentalist's lawsuit for not following the law is going to be a lot more valid than tombstone's.

Thorny: violentsalvation: Thorny: hackhix: best comment in that thread:

So an inferno, massive floods, mudslides and boulders didn't hurt the owl, but people with shovels will cause what, the owls to explode spontaneously? Dolts.

The federal government is not going to violate its own laws (endangered species act). Thinking that they should is basically saying that everyone should only follow laws when they are convenient which defeats the entire purpose of having laws.

It is a land grab on public land which tombstone does not have rights to anymore than I have a right to the land. I have to follow the rules when I am on public land whether I like them or not. I do not think it is unfair to ask cities and large corporations to do the same.

My view of environmental regulations for construction projects on public land: You knew what they were going in, you knew the costs, you knew the risks, and you agreed to them for permission to do the project. I have no sympathy for you not being able to deal with the fact that you did not expect USFWS, BLM, and USFS would hold you to what was agreed upon.

Bullshiat. The city of Tombstone has all the documentation and proof they have owned the 25 springs and the right to maintain five acres around each one, as well as 25 feet on either side of the pipeline since 1947 after they bought out the company that installed it in the late 1800's, before the forest service existed.

They have the right to maintain...what maintenance consists of was previously agreed upon with Forest Service...and if they have all of the documentation why don't they show it to the Forest Service? Public pressure is going to be on the side of the pipeline (people like having cheap water more than owls)...which means that they think the environmentalist's lawsuit for not following the law is going to be a lot more valid than tombstone's.

It's not about cheap water. It's about having water at all.

Then tombstone should follow the regulations that they agreed to follow and provide documentation for the springs they own...it really is that easy.

I don't know what the agreement is but I am confident that there are emergency back up plans.

The forest service is known for being run by old ranching and logging lobbyists...they are not known for being environmental when they can get away with it.

We're Owl Exterminators