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(GPB News)   Win-Win: Vidalia onion farmers don't need illegal aliens to pick crops in Georgia, prison inmates are working out just fine   (gpb.org) divider line 264
    More: Spiffy, workamping, farmers, crops  
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5500 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Jun 2012 at 2:08 PM (3 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-09 02:56:16 PM  

KimNorth: So you would rather pay in your tax money the cost of keeping them in prison plus the cost of illegals being here and their cost too?


I'd rather the farmers be made to pay decent wages, which would have a trivial effect on the cost of onions.
 
2012-06-09 02:57:12 PM  
Yeah, I really want someone with a grudge against society handling my food.
 
2012-06-09 02:58:20 PM  
Yet another reason I've told my kids to get out of the US and into a civilized country, like Russia.
 
2012-06-09 02:58:53 PM  

AndreMA: Yeah, I really want someone with a grudge against society handling my food.


You must not eat in restaurants too often. Low paying kitchen work is one of the few avenues of employment ex-cons can get into without much trouble.
 
2012-06-09 02:58:54 PM  
This could be a good way to deal with 3 problems.
- It would put a damper on illegal immigration.
-Inmates can pick the produce and be productive while reforming.
-Give the inmates a produce picking job and give them a good wage using farm subsidies.
 
2012-06-09 02:59:47 PM  

WhyteRaven74: KimNorth: So you would rather pay in your tax money the cost of keeping them in prison plus the cost of illegals being here and their cost too?

I'd rather the farmers be made to pay decent wages, which would have a trivial effect on the cost of onions.


Both of these ideas are good.
 
2012-06-09 03:02:12 PM  
DRTFA, but I'm kind of curious as to how the paychecks are disbursed. Even if the prison administration isn't resorting to intimidation to scare up workers, I'm sure there are other organizations within the prison community with no such scruples.

/They are felons after all.
//"Where's my money, biatch?"
 
2012-06-09 03:02:15 PM  
Beats working in a call center.
 
2012-06-09 03:04:28 PM  
Night Train Express: DRTFA, but I'm kind of curious as to how the paychecks are disbursed. Even if the prison administration isn't resorting to intimidation to scare up workers, I'm sure there are other organizations within the prison community with no such scruples.

The way the local prison here works is that they have their own accounts inside the prison the money goes into. They don't get paid minimum wage - iirc it's two or three an hour. They either get it as a bulk payment on their release, or they can use it at cantina.
 
2012-06-09 03:04:48 PM  
"If we knew they were gonna give us this much trouble, we'd have picked our own damn Vidalia onions."
 
2012-06-09 03:05:03 PM  
This is starting to become one of the dumbest threads I've read in a long time
 
2012-06-09 03:05:07 PM  
Honestly, I don't have a problem with this, if the money is used to cover the cost of the prison. Prisons aren't free, they cost a ton of tax payer money, so why not make the prisoners employees to farms with contracts that the prisoners are paid minimum wage, that money goes to the prison and the prison pays the prisoners that prison wage. And no, this isn't the prison making money off of the prisoners. This is the prisoners basically paying rent, food, water and electricity with very little money left over. You know, like everyone else living on minimum wage.
 
2012-06-09 03:05:22 PM  

BronyMedic: StreetlightInTheGhetto: Why couldn't they have a prison garden and defray the cost of their incarceration by defraying food costs in the cafeteria? So they could actually learn skills (like the entirety of growing) and enjoy the fruits of their labor? See that hard work can lead to good results?

They used to do this. They used to be called Penal Farms for a reason, you know.
The inmates would grow a large amount of their own food, so that very little had to be supplemented from the outside. Some facilities even raised their own livestock.

The way I see it, give inmates two options when they go to jail for an offense that isn't going to put them in for the rest of their lives.

Option 1) Give Inmates high quality job training so that when they are released, they have a marketable skill to gain employment with. Something like electronics, mechanics, welding, or construction, or some other form of skilled manual labor. You don't necessarily have to provide anyone with a college education, but some form of job training.

Option 2) Put them to work on public works projects and improvements to the grounds which do not require skilled labor. Let them assist the local community in farming and harvesting. Let them do groundskeeping.


I know they used to. I've heard of one prison where despite the costs being cheaper than bringing in food (and a hell of a lot healthier) the program was still shut down. Not like the land wasn't already there and tilled...

And I agree with both your options.
 
2012-06-09 03:06:02 PM  

WhyteRaven74: KimNorth: So you would rather pay in your tax money the cost of keeping them in prison plus the cost of illegals being here and their cost too?

I'd rather the farmers be made to pay decent wages, which would have a trivial effect on the cost of onions.


They pay $10.00 an hour, plus weight bonuses.

Also a point people ignore is that let's say an apple that cost $1.00 really cost the tax payer $3.00 after the cost to educate, feed, ER, language modification literature, etc, etc when illegal labor is used.

I would rather pay the difference out right or have the government subsides more poor on food programs knowing Americans were getting these jobs for maybe $12.00 an hr instead of $10.00.

I come from a family of farm workers who were pushed out by mass illegal work force and think if we give it time like more than 6 months this will fix it's self as people want to work.
 
2012-06-09 03:06:23 PM  

Guidette Frankentits: T\Give the inmates a produce picking job and give them a good wage using farm subsidies.

No way...

Farm subsidies helping already rich farmers and huge agribusiness get richer is cool, but helping poor people survive, that's just socialism...
 
2012-06-09 03:06:46 PM  

Great Janitor: ... And no, this isn't the prison making money off of the prisoners....


you don't think for-profit prisons are making a profit?????
 
2012-06-09 03:06:54 PM  

Great Janitor: This is the prisoners basically paying rent, food, water and electricity with very little money left ove


It's not the job of prisoners to cover their expenses. If the state doesn't want to cover the expenses, perhaps they shouldn't be putting so many people in prison.
 
2012-06-09 03:08:10 PM  
This is wrong. Very, very wrong. Using incarcerated prisoners to enrich private industry is wrong. This country, especially with regard to prisons in the south and African-Americans, has a really bad history of doing this sh*t.
Wikipedia
Encyclopedia of Alabama
University of Houston
The New Georgia Encyclopedia

And they're trying to bring this sh*t back:
The Nation
Indybay
BrokenChains

The farmers made their situations by hiring who they hired, and structuring their businesses the way they did. Georgia made this mess, now let them deal with it. When you're convicted of a crime, you do the time, and that is all you owe society and the state. You do not owe it to some f*cking corporation.
 
2012-06-09 03:09:15 PM  

dforkus: Guidette Frankentits: T\Give the inmates a produce picking job and give them a good wage using farm subsidies.
No way...

Farm subsidies helping already rich farmers and huge agribusiness get richer is cool, but helping poor people survive, that's just socialism...


How dare we try to help our fellow man. That's an outrage!
 
2012-06-09 03:10:23 PM  

KimNorth: They pay $10.00 an hour, plus weight bonuses.


Which isn't all that great. Either the farmers get people to work on their own, or they can deal with the consequences. Using prison labor is simply inexcusable.
 
2012-06-09 03:12:39 PM  

rewind2846: This is wrong. Very, very wrong. Using incarcerated prisoners to enrich private industry is wrong.


You'll get no argument from me on that at all. Ever. However, having said that, the United States is not the only country to employ slave labor (inmates) for the benefit of corporations, as the Chinese have been doing that for years.

From political prisoners, to religious prisoners, China has profitted from their efforts, and we enjoy the fruits of those efforts as well.
 
2012-06-09 03:15:13 PM  

WhyteRaven74: KimNorth: They pay $10.00 an hour, plus weight bonuses.

Which isn't all that great. Either the farmers get people to work on their own, or they can deal with the consequences. Using prison labor is simply inexcusable.


I bet if you asked the prisoner they would say minimum wage for this farken rocks they don't care really if it $3.00 or $10.00 they are feeling lucky to be chosen after volunteering to do this job and get out.

I think you are think in line with 50 years ago when they were Forced to work, that is not what is happening here.
 
2012-06-09 03:15:18 PM  
Poor people commit more crimes. Some of them get incarcerated and are then put to work for pennies, which puts more people out of work, which leads to more crime, which involves some of them being forced to work for pennies, which puts more people out of work.

On the plus side, once we are all locked up, companies won't be interested in going overseas for labor.
 
2012-06-09 03:15:37 PM  
Picking those onions would probably cost those farmers $20 - $50 per worker hour if they had to hire workers to pick them. It's hard work, people don't want to do it, but offered enough money they will take the work. That labor cost would add slightly (but only slightly) to the grocery price of the onions.

Instead of paying what would be a fair wage for short-term flexible labor, the farmers chose to maximize profits by illegally using undocumented immigrants, probably for slightly more than minimum wage (even undocumented labor won't actually accept sub-minimum wages any more.) But the crackdown on that created a situation where the farmers would have to start paying fair wages to Americans. Or...

They could get something like this implemented, where slave labor (and in many cases, the descendants of the same slaves who originally worked those plantations) could be brought in from the prisons, and be "paid" minimum wage, with most of that going back to the state for rental of the government owned slaves.
 
2012-06-09 03:16:13 PM  

cretinbob: Then quit biatching about unemployment being high and human rights in China.


done in one.
 
2012-06-09 03:16:30 PM  
Less Win-Win, more Disturbing-Possibilities. An absurdly huge prison population, a rise in for-profit facilities, and a way to compel people-- whether by circumstance or by force-- to work for your prison.

I mean, the whole reason classic 'do the crime, do the crime' proponents are against restitution is because you shouldn't be able to force a person into effective slavery in order to pay off their crime.
 
2012-06-09 03:16:51 PM  

Amos Quito: Nabb1: violentsalvation: AbbeySomeone: FTFA"part of the check goes toward defraying the cost of their incarceration", or something.
Yeah, clever how that worked out. How many 'favors' is this judge involved in?

That shiat bothers me. If the state decides I am guilty of a crime then they can foot the bill for my incarceration, I'm not going to work off my supposed dues slaving away in an onion field.

The state doesn't decide you are guilty. A jury does.


Most "convictions" never went to trial. They are the result of plea bargains.


Isn't that where the accused decides he's guilty?
 
2012-06-09 03:17:19 PM  

DarkVader: Picking those onions would probably cost those farmers $20 - $50 per worker hour if they had to hire workers to pick them. It's hard work, people don't want to do it, but offered enough money they will take the work. That labor cost would add slightly (but only slightly) to the grocery price of the onions..


But, what would Republican Jesus say about that?
 
2012-06-09 03:17:56 PM  
DarkVader: Picking those onions would probably cost those farmers $20 - $50 per worker hour if they had to hire workers to pick them. It's hard work, people don't want to do it, but offered enough money they will take the work. That labor cost would add slightly (but only slightly) to the grocery price of the onions.

Instead of paying what would be a fair wage for short-term flexible labor, the farmers chose to maximize profits by illegally using undocumented immigrants, probably for slightly more than minimum wage (even undocumented labor won't actually accept sub-minimum wages any more.) But the crackdown on that created a situation where the farmers would have to start paying fair wages to Americans. Or...

They could get something like this implemented, where slave labor (and in many cases, the descendants of the same slaves who originally worked those plantations) could be brought in from the prisons, and be "paid" minimum wage, with most of that going back to the state for rental of the government owned slaves.


What the fark am I reading? ಠ_ಠ
 
2012-06-09 03:17:58 PM  

Trance750: rewind2846: This is wrong. Very, very wrong. Using incarcerated prisoners to enrich private industry is wrong.

You'll get no argument from me on that at all. Ever. However, having said that, the United States is not the only country to employ slave labor (inmates) for the benefit of corporations, as the Chinese have been doing that for years.

From political prisoners, to religious prisoners, China has profitted from their efforts, and we enjoy the fruits of those efforts as well.


God the derp going on here is incredible!

This is not like China AT ALL as these prisnors are not forced or corhorsed at all they want to do it that is why they VOLUNTEERED
 
2012-06-09 03:20:07 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Nothing beats slave labor provided by the government. Just ask the Nazis.


Except, of course, working in prison has been part of the US since long before there were Nazis.

Frankly, I really do not have a problem with this as long as the payment to the state is equal to at least minimum wage and proper safty precautions are taken.
 
2012-06-09 03:21:40 PM  

WarehouseMouse: My friend's incarcerated husband has had two jobs in prison - salvaging old computers, and refurbishing wheelchairs. He makes approximately a quarter per hour doing this.

Now I don't expect an inmate to be paid handsomely for making use of his time in a constructive manner, but the company that contracts with the prison for labor is making a killing on this deal. They can easily outprice their competition because they have access to a source of ridiclously cheap labor that not everyone has access to. That shiat ain't right.


The inmate gets a quarter/hour, the prison system charges the employer much more.
 
2012-06-09 03:21:50 PM  
Marcus Aurelius: Nothing beats slave labor provided by the government. Just ask the Nazis.

Except that the prisoners doing this aren't forced, are still treated humanely, they're volunteers, and they're compensated for their time.

Other than that, you might have an argument.
 
2012-06-09 03:22:22 PM  

Nabb1: Amos Quito: Nabb1: violentsalvation: AbbeySomeone: FTFA"part of the check goes toward defraying the cost of their incarceration", or something.
Yeah, clever how that worked out. How many 'favors' is this judge involved in?

That shiat bothers me. If the state decides I am guilty of a crime then they can foot the bill for my incarceration, I'm not going to work off my supposed dues slaving away in an onion field.

The state doesn't decide you are guilty. A jury does.


Most "convictions" never went to trial. They are the result of plea bargains.

This is true. And the defendant enters into that of his own free will.



Prosecutor: Look, punk, this is serious shiat. If this goes to trial you're looking at 5-10 years behind bars - minimum. If you accept the plea bargain, we'll do our best to see that you get only one year - maybe even probation.

Defendant: 5 to 10 YEARS?

Prosecutor: Yup.

Defendant: But I'm innocent! Still I'm scared to death! What should I do Mr. Attorney?

Public Defender: Like he says, you'll probably get probation. Why take the chance? Take the plea bargain.

Defendant: B-b-but... Shiat! Okay... where do I sign?
 
2012-06-09 03:23:55 PM  
Amos Quito: Prosecutor: Look, punk, this is serious shiat. If this goes to trial you're looking at 5-10 years behind bars - minimum. If you accept the plea bargain, we'll do our best to see that you get only one year - maybe even probation.

Defendant: 5 to 10 YEARS?

Prosecutor: Yup.

Defendant: But I'm innocent! Still I'm scared to death! What should I do Mr. Attorney?

Public Defender: Like he says, you'll probably get probation. Why take the chance? Take the plea bargain.

Defendant: B-b-but... Shiat! Okay... where do I sign?


You're an idiot if you take a plea bargain on anything on a "promise".
 
2012-06-09 03:24:03 PM  

WhyteRaven74: Great Janitor: This is the prisoners basically paying rent, food, water and electricity with very little money left ove

It's not the job of prisoners to cover their expenses. If the state doesn't want to cover the expenses, perhaps they shouldn't be putting so many people in prison.


Why should the state pay to feed, clothed and shelter murderers, rapers, drug dealers while those of us who are free struggle to pay for those same exact things? Why not make the prisoners pay there way, even in prison? It would give them something to do, help cover the cost of the prisons, taking the cost of the prisons off of the tax payers, allowing more tax dollars to be used in other areas, like schools.

The fact is, state and federal budgets are tight, more money has to come from somewhere, and if the state and federal governments are going to pay to house prisoners, why not use them as a work force to bring in revenue?
 
2012-06-09 03:24:22 PM  

KimNorth: I come from a family of farm workers who were pushed out by mass illegal work force and think if we give it time like more than 6 months this will fix it's self as people want to work.


This. The area around Vidalia may not be able to field (a particular kind of labor) but just give it a delay. (A particular kind of labor) was normal at one time and people need time to get the word out and you get seekers showing up. That's how any kind of labor works.
 
2012-06-09 03:24:27 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: BarkingUnicorn: Chariset: GAT_00: How do you know it's voluntary? It doesn't say anywhere in there they volunteered.

As cynical as I can be sometimes, I'd say these probably are volunteer laborers, if only because coercing work out of unwilling workers would be too much trouble and counter-productive. If someone were out there who didn't want to be there, wouldn't he just smash up the onions, pick fights with other prisoners, or play in the dirt all day?

Maybe, if he wanted to spend the rest of his sentence in a sweat box. Let's not kid ourselves: this is forced labor. And it's probably the only way to get Americans to pick onions.

[www.tshirthell.com image 515x320]

The Pyramids were built by hired labor, not slaves.


I know. T-shirtHell.com used a cotton-picking image at one time. IDK why they changed to pyramids.
 
2012-06-09 03:24:54 PM  

TheDumbBlonde: "If we knew they were gonna give us this much trouble, we'd have picked our own damn Vidalia onions."


i2.photobucket.com
 
2012-06-09 03:26:56 PM  

Amos Quito: Prosecutor: Look, punk, this is serious shiat. If this goes to trial you're looking at 5-10 years behind bars - minimum. If you accept the plea bargain, we'll do our best to see that you get only one year - maybe even probation.

Defendant: 5 to 10 YEARS?

Prosecutor: Yup.

Defendant: But I'm innocent! Still I'm scared to death! What should I do Mr. Attorney?

Public Defender: Like he says, you'll probably get probation. Why take the chance? Take the plea bargain.

Defendant: B-b-but... Shiat! Okay... where do I sign?


I think you need to stop basing your understanding of plea negotiations based on what you've seen on bad television dramas.
 
2012-06-09 03:29:20 PM  

sigdiamond2000: Didn't pretty much everybody predict this exact thing happening as a result of the crack down on illegals?


Yes, the next step, according to the plans the conservative law writing group ALEC has, is to privatize the prisons and farm out the prisoners to corporate factories, providing a cheap source of labor that has little rights and few avenues to protest abuses.

Getting the illegal aliens out of the fields is just one of the first steps.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-06-09 03:30:34 PM  
We've done this before. They do it in China too. I have been saying Republicans want to being back slavery, but I meant it as a joke. Republicans are the rebirth of the Confederacy.
 
2012-06-09 03:30:44 PM  

GAT_00: Ah, the wonderful free market.


I'm sorry, but the farking government forcing somebody (anybody) to practically do slave labor is the complete opposite of the free market.

STFU with this crap.
 
2012-06-09 03:32:31 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: GAT_00: The My Little Pony Killer: I'm okay with this.

Why? Being in prison doesn't mean you should be allowed to be turned into a slave. Despite what some people think, people in prison are still PEOPLE.

They're not slaves though. They're being paid for their work. And they're using that money to pay back the debt they're incurring having committed a crime and gotten themselves locked up in the first place.

Yes, people in prison are still PEOPLE, which is why REHABILITATION is so important. Would you rather they sat in cells all day? I don't quite get what you're getting at here, Gat.


You really don't do you? If these people were making, say, prison sheets or coveralls or shoes, or doing something else while in prison for the state (like the famous license plates) then most here would have no problems with that. Making furniture for public schools, badges for state police, or cleaning up state parks, no problem. These people aren't doing that... they are working for a private company because that private company is too cheapsh*t to pay people (citizens) a wage high enough to attract them to work.

Once again: state work = okay, private industry = not okay.

BTW, they are paying back the debt with their TIME, something that once taken away, you can never have back. Think about this: if someone offered you a choice between a billion dollars and a guaranteed extra 20 years of life, which would you choose?
 
2012-06-09 03:35:19 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Amos Quito: Nabb1: violentsalvation: AbbeySomeone: FTFA"part of the check goes toward defraying the cost of their incarceration", or something.
Yeah, clever how that worked out. How many 'favors' is this judge involved in?

That shiat bothers me. If the state decides I am guilty of a crime then they can foot the bill for my incarceration, I'm not going to work off my supposed dues slaving away in an onion field.

The state doesn't decide you are guilty. A jury does.


Most "convictions" never went to trial. They are the result of plea bargains.

Isn't that where the accused decides he's guilty?


No.

That's where the accused with limited income, faced with very limited legal representation and a legal system designed to put him in prison, takes a shorter sentence than he would likely get if he insisted on a trial with virtually no chance of acquittal even if he's completely innocent.
 
2012-06-09 03:35:48 PM  

rewind2846: The My Little Pony Killer: GAT_00: The My Little Pony Killer: I'm okay with this.

Why? Being in prison doesn't mean you should be allowed to be turned into a slave. Despite what some people think, people in prison are still PEOPLE.

They're not slaves though. They're being paid for their work. And they're using that money to pay back the debt they're incurring having committed a crime and gotten themselves locked up in the first place.

Yes, people in prison are still PEOPLE, which is why REHABILITATION is so important. Would you rather they sat in cells all day? I don't quite get what you're getting at here, Gat.

You really don't do you? If these people were making, say, prison sheets or coveralls or shoes, or doing something else while in prison for the state (like the famous license plates) then most here would have no problems with that. Making furniture for public schools, badges for state police, or cleaning up state parks, no problem. These people aren't doing that... they are working for a private company because that private company is too cheapsh*t to pay people (citizens) a wage high enough to attract them to work.

Once again: state work = okay, private industry = not okay.

BTW, they are paying back the debt with their TIME, something that once taken away, you can never have back. Think about this: if someone offered you a choice between a billion dollars and a guaranteed extra 20 years of life, which would you choose?


The farken BILLION dollars!!!! Chu-ching!!!

I would live it the fark up! Besides an extra 20 years of what working to pay the rent fark that.

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-06-09 03:36:44 PM  
And there are lots of blah people in prison. And it's not like we have to worry about people being arrested because it makes money, just because that is what happened the last time we tried this.
 
2012-06-09 03:37:30 PM  

KimNorth:

This is not like China AT ALL as these prisnors are not forced or corhorsed at all they want to do it that is why they VOLUNTEERED


I don't know what "cohorsed" is, but it doesn't matter whether any of the "prisnors" volunteered, the mere fact that this faustian contract exists between the state and private businesses is what's wrong here. You're just too stupid to grasp the concept.
 
2012-06-09 03:37:54 PM  

Nabb1: I think you need to stop basing your understanding of plea negotiations based on what you've seen on bad television dramas.


A huge percentage of people arrested make pleas with rather dubious legal representation. If they insisted on trials, the whole court system would be totally gummed up. Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

Great Janitor: Why should the state pay to feed, clothed and shelter murderers, rapers, drug dealers while those of us who are free struggle to pay for those same exact things?


That state makes the laws, it decides the punishments.
 
2012-06-09 03:40:11 PM  

rewind2846: The My Little Pony Killer: GAT_00: The My Little Pony Killer: I'm okay with this.

Why? Being in prison doesn't mean you should be allowed to be turned into a slave. Despite what some people think, people in prison are still PEOPLE.

They're not slaves though. They're being paid for their work. And they're using that money to pay back the debt they're incurring having committed a crime and gotten themselves locked up in the first place.

Yes, people in prison are still PEOPLE, which is why REHABILITATION is so important. Would you rather they sat in cells all day? I don't quite get what you're getting at here, Gat.

You really don't do you? If these people were making, say, prison sheets or coveralls or shoes, or doing something else while in prison for the state (like the famous license plates) then most here would have no problems with that. Making furniture for public schools, badges for state police, or cleaning up state parks, no problem. These people aren't doing that... they are working for a private company because that private company is too cheapsh*t to pay people (citizens) a wage high enough to attract them to work.

Once again: state work = okay, private industry = not okay.

BTW, they are paying back the debt with their TIME, something that once taken away, you can never have back. Think about this: if someone offered you a choice between a billion dollars and a guaranteed extra 20 years of life, which would you choose?


The billion dollars, unless that is 20 years as a 26 y.o. Then I'd take the time. I would not want 20 years added to the end of my life where my body is decaying and dying. Have you ever seen a person who was 101 years old? Ever worked with the elderly at a nursing home? Yeah, no farking way am I going to add 20 years to that hell.
 
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