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(CNN)   More and more twenty-somethings are entering the workforce and eschewing health insurance entirely because it's too expensive   (money.cnn.com) divider line 153
    More: Scary, Commonwealth Fund, doctor's visit, credit card debts, debts, health care  
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8288 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Jun 2012 at 3:42 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2012-06-09 04:28:44 AM
13 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: farkityfarker: As a Canadian who recently broke his wrist and had it fixed for free as opposed to the $20K I would have paid as an American, I'm getting a kick out of this...

Nothing is free. You paid for it in other ways, and other people helped you pay for it. Is there a pie chart comparing taxes for Canadians and Americans versus government spending for Canadians versus Americans?


I imagine they save a lot of money by not holding 10-year-long wars and country-building exercises in the middle of the farking godforsaken Asian desert.
2012-06-09 04:26:22 AM
9 votes:
Some people aren't realizing that many of us twenty-somethings just don't give a flyin' fark anymore. Our parents and grandparents wiped their asses with this country and told us "good luck!" while they collect the last retirement checks anyone will ever get.

So forgive me if I'm not exactly wild about tossing gobs of cash at men in suits on the off chance it might prolong my stay in this world.
2012-06-09 03:49:10 AM
9 votes:
America! Can put a man on the moon, but cannot solve basic issues that every other country has solved.
2012-06-09 12:20:07 AM
7 votes:
Me: Universal care, single-payer.

Them: We can't do that! That's SOSHLIZMS!

Me: And?
2012-06-09 04:29:51 AM
6 votes:

relcec: , at the very least it is serving the function of negotiating a fairly significant discount for you from the provider.


That does people soooo much good when the insurance refuses to actually cover claims. It should be illegal for any medical insurance to refuse to cover any claim, from any doctor or hospital, period. No "Well it wasn't life threatening so we're not covering your ER visit" crap, no pre-approvals, no referrals, none of it. As it stands now insurance companies are practicing medicine by proxy and that can not be tolerated.
2012-06-09 04:06:48 AM
6 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: farkityfarker: As a Canadian who recently broke his wrist and had it fixed for free as opposed to the $20K I would have paid as an American, I'm getting a kick out of this...

Nothing is free. You paid for it in other ways, and other people helped you pay for it. Is there a pie chart comparing taxes for Canadians and Americans versus government spending for Canadians versus Americans?


if taxes have to go up so thousands of people don't either go bankrupt because of medical bills or flat out die because they don't get treatment, then they farking should go up

anyway, total health care expenditure per capita is by far the highest in the US out of the whole world and our system sucks balls
2012-06-09 02:35:55 AM
6 votes:
If Boomers would start dieing or retiring, I'd be more than happy to get a better job and buy health insurance.
2012-06-09 12:23:51 AM
6 votes:
How much do you want to bet that after SCOTUS follows their rightward tilt and strikes down HCA, that bankruptcy rules will be quietly changed so that medical debt joins student loans as "unable to discharge" in bankruptcy?
2012-06-09 05:06:26 AM
5 votes:
Why does the USA tie health insurance to employment? I just don't see why they should be linked. Health insurance should just be between the individual and the insurer.

Your system sounds... anti-competitive, and it seems that you are not the customer that the insurer needs to keep, instead your boss is. Wouldn't that promote kickbacks?
2012-06-09 02:21:30 AM
5 votes:

Darth_Lukecash: If corporations could get away with it, they would pay people very, very little.


*cough*
Link

1) Bring in foreign students for a work exchange program
2) Pay them as little as you legally can
3) Charge then 99% of what you pay them for absolute shiat housing and forbid them from living anywhere else
4) ...
5) Profit!
6) Pretend you're not Foxconn West by playing the victim when the students strike
2012-06-09 08:18:26 AM
4 votes:
From outside of the US the problems with you healthcare system boils down to this:

Too many greedy middle-men looking to make obscene profits
Too much greed on the part of goddamn stockholders
Too many really really stupid people conned by propaganda about FREEDOM! (USA FARK YEAH!)
Too many corrupt politicians in the pocket of lobbyists
2012-06-09 06:12:46 AM
4 votes:

Bathia_Mapes: One thing I noticed the article didn't delve into is that some young people don't get health insurance because they can't. Some people have a pre-existing medical condition and there are insurance companies that will refuse them coverage just for that reason. If they do offer them coverage it will be significantly higher.

Right now there is little someone can do when they're refused coverage because they have a pre-existing condition. Many of these conditions are ones that can afflict anyone at any age and are not the result of use tobacco, alcohol or drugs . Some can be congenital as well. Some of these pre-existing conditions include:

diabetes
heart problems
mental illness
asthma
hemophilia
epilepsy
multiple sclerosis
allergies


Combine pre-existing condition clauses with employer-based insurance and you've got the kind of clusterfark that people are faced with far too often.

When my "young, healthy" boyfriend was diagnosed with cancer at the age of 27 he had insurance coverage through his employer... But as his condition worsened and he could no longer work, he lost the job and the coverage along with it. As it turns out, private insurers do not find cancer patients particularly desirable customers and we were left with literally no option but to run out 18 months of COBRA coverage and then wait for bankruptcy or death.

Seriously, if you showed up one day in a sane, alternate universe and proposed a system that works like this, people would slap you.
2012-06-09 05:41:23 AM
4 votes:
One thing I noticed the article didn't delve into is that some young people don't get health insurance because they can't. Some people have a pre-existing medical condition and there are insurance companies that will refuse them coverage just for that reason. If they do offer them coverage it will be significantly higher.

Right now there is little someone can do when they're refused coverage because they have a pre-existing condition. Many of these conditions are ones that can afflict anyone at any age and are not the result of use tobacco, alcohol or drugs . Some can be congenital as well. Some of these pre-existing conditions include:

diabetes
heart problems
mental illness
asthma
hemophilia
epilepsy
multiple sclerosis
allergies
2012-06-09 04:46:03 AM
4 votes:

tinfoil-hat maggie: insurance companies are evil and get out of paying anyway they can.


I'm actually surprised no one has gone after one or a few on bad faith grounds. They're taking money then trying to weasel out of paying claims, basically they're selling something they have no intention of making good on if they can help it. Which isn't exactly proper.
2012-06-09 04:05:27 AM
4 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: farkityfarker: As a Canadian who recently broke his wrist and had it fixed for free as opposed to the $20K I would have paid as an American, I'm getting a kick out of this...

Nothing is free. You paid for it in other ways, and other people helped you pay for it. Is there a pie chart comparing taxes for Canadians and Americans versus government spending for Canadians versus Americans?


upload.wikimedia.org

Sorry it's not a pie chart, but it was quick and dirty from Wikipedia.

/hot
2012-06-09 04:00:20 AM
4 votes:

Lando Lincoln: Good thing we won't have an individual mandate to force these freedom-loving kids to buy health insurance. This will never come back to bite them in the ass, or the people that will eventually have to pay for their medical treatment when they will eventually need it.


the cost of medical treatment for the young and healthy is in the aggregate significantly less than what they would have to pay in premiums for full cost insurance.
to forgo insurance at this point is absolutely a rational decision by the vast majority of them.
that is why healthcare *reform* bill will very soon force these very people to buy full priced insurance (cheap catastrophic insurance which is basically all a young person really needs is being prohibited in the future, the only choice will be full cost insurance), because they will be made to take the loss so that the private insurance industry can reap windfall profits, and in turn will be willing to insure less profitable patients.

these young people are the grist for the mill whose sacrifice the for profit insurance industry demanded.
2012-06-09 03:55:38 AM
4 votes:

Smeggy Smurf: Mandates are what's making insurance so damned high. My wife absolutely cannot have any more kids yet Idaho has it mandated that she be covered for pregnancy. WTF? $300 a month more for a medical impossibility? Fark you I hope they all get ass cancer in airport bathrooms.


They can't adjust that price for risk like they can in upping the price for a smoker to cover lung cancer?

You're getting hosed, but it's not the fault of the healthcare bill. They're forced to provide the coverage, they don't have to charge extra. If they know it's an impossibility, they don't have to charge anything. Your insurance company is dicking you around.

\Single payer really is the only solution.
\\It's simply an issue of patient motive versus profit motive.
2012-06-09 03:50:19 AM
4 votes:

aiiee: that's not bright kids. Get the catastrophic coverage that only kicks in after 5000 has been spent. I'ts under 100/mo if you're under 30


$100 a month/$50 bi-weekly is a lot of money. what is the math about how much of one's net income one should take home before it's feasible to spend $100 a month on health insurance?
2012-06-09 03:49:37 AM
4 votes:
Too bad the public option was killed by the Republicans.
2012-06-09 03:46:13 AM
4 votes:
As a Canadian who recently broke his wrist and had it fixed for free as opposed to the $20K I would have paid as an American, I'm getting a kick out of this...
2012-06-09 08:30:08 AM
3 votes:
No offense guys, but your country is insane. Just upside-down, pants-on-head retardedly insane.

You know how many people don't have health care here in Canada?

ZERO.

Not a single soul in this country can't walk into any hospital for absolutely free whenever they need it. And it's awesome. And should be expected of a democratic country.

And then I read that link on the first page talking about debtor's prison. I seriously have no clue how that country has lasted this long. It's just over the top mind blowing.

Nothing against the citizens. In my experience American people are generally actually nicer than Canadians (we seem to have some arrogance problems for some weird reason). But the country and it's laws and such? Insane to the nth degree.
2012-06-09 08:13:18 AM
3 votes:
The wife and I are both 26. She works for a small firm and I am self employed so employer health care isn't really on the table. A $2500 deductible plan is around $400-$500 a month last time I looked into it, maybe 2 months ago. A $5000 plan would bankrupt us if we had a serious issue so whats the point.

We have both delayed medical care and pay cash when we really need it. The really frustrating thing is you have no idea what anything will cost, ever. I don't understand how you can have almost anything non-medical done, even if it is completely custom, and get a quote relatively quickly. A doctor recommended my wife get a certain procedure done to treat chronic kidney infections, after a $1500 test showed nothing useful. He pretty much said he wasn't sure if it would help or not but it was the next thing he'd 'try'. She called around to a few different places that offered it and was told by almost all that they didn't know what it would cost, you have to talk to billing. So she calls the billing departments they all say they have no idea, they can only process claims after the fact when they have all the 'codes'. The best we wound up getting was a cost estimate of $500-$5000 or so. This is for a common procedure they do all day long. That is pretty damn helpful when you are trying to decide to take a shot at something or not.....

//CSB

I really wish health care got separated from people's jobs. I think we'd have a lot more options and people would realize how farked up this stuff is.
2012-06-09 06:54:13 AM
3 votes:
People keep complaining that health insurance costs are too high. These people are stupid, in my opinion, because the real problem is that you need insurance to pay for health care.

You're complaining about the wrong thing people.
2012-06-09 05:42:14 AM
3 votes:

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: If Boomers would start dieing or retiring, I'd be more than happy to get a better job and buy health insurance.


Don't hang your hopes on that, sonny-boy. All those great jobs us Boomers used to have? Yeah, we still have, and will vacate, a few of them. But they are mostly just gone - for good. And when we die, we won't just leave a productivity slack for you to take up - we will also stop consuming, leaving a huge smoking crater in the middle of the economy. As usual,praying for someone else's death will bring no good to you.
If you young folks don't grow a brain (and a pair) and kick these right-wingers out of power, and soon, you are f**ked. Sitting around biatching about "Boomers", reading Ayn Rand, and voting Republican will only bury you deeper in the hole you're in right now.
2012-06-09 04:57:29 AM
3 votes:

aiiee: that's not bright kids. Get the catastrophic coverage that only kicks in after 5000 has been spent. I'ts under 100/mo if you're under 30


Don't listen to him kids. Assuming you have $100 / mo. kicking around (not necessarily a valid assumption for someone whose job doesn't include benefits), you're better off putting it into a rainy-day fund that can be used for *any* emergency. As a healthy 20-something, incurring large medical expenses is a low-probability event. Why do you think health insurers are still willing to insure you? You're more likely to be bankrupted by a job loss combined with other expenses such as car repairs or suddenly needing a new place to live.

Weigh the low likelihood of being bankrupted by medical expenses vs. the high likelihood of being bankrupted by something else because all your disposable income is being thrown down the rathole of our corrupt health insurance system. It's not a different calculation to make.
2012-06-09 04:51:46 AM
3 votes:

jtown: ExperianScaresCthulhu: aiiee: that's not bright kids. Get the catastrophic coverage that only kicks in after 5000 has been spent. I'ts under 100/mo if you're under 30

$100 a month/$50 bi-weekly is a lot of money. what is the math about how much of one's net income one should take home before it's feasible to spend $100 a month on health insurance?

You generally don't get paid the employer contribution for medical if you decline coverage. In every company I've worked for, it's been use it or lose it. So, if the company has a minimum contribution of $100/month and there's a plan of any type for $100/month or less, it makes absolutely no sense to decline. (Unless you get better coverage on a spouse or parent's plan.) The last two companies I worked for had fixed contributions and multiple plans to pick from. Both had a bare-bones policy that was less than the contribution (translation: zero cost to employee) and neither paid out any net savings.


Not sure about the OP, but the majority of the people I know who fall into this category don't have the option to get access to a health plan through their employer, let alone a contribution.
2012-06-09 04:49:16 AM
3 votes:

relcec: if you knew more about healthcare you wouldn't be pissing on the discounts.


And if you don't go to the right hospital, you don't get the discount. No insurance company should ever have any say period, of any kind, in what doctor or hospital someone goes to. Nor should they ever be allowed to refuse a legit claim.
2012-06-09 04:42:56 AM
3 votes:
Love the denial that the US is NOT slipping into third world status.

whargarble.........but healthcare provided is socialism.........so is public education, road tax, gasoline tax, armed feces, etc.

100 dollars a month to some is the difference between eating one meal a day to skipping a meal three or for times a week.

Not addressing the fatties that need to back away from their diet cokes.......they could stand to fast periodically.
2012-06-09 04:22:09 AM
3 votes:
I haven't had insurance since my last job that offered it...6 years ago. I cannot afford even the $5000 deductible policies (pre-existing condition).
If it WAS affordable, I would have been paying into a pool for 6 years. But $500+ a month for crap?
All of my savings would be used up by now.

But I figure, as it gets worse and more people have to give it up..then maybe single payer may come to pass. Just have to hope I don't die first.
2012-06-09 04:07:03 AM
3 votes:

aiiee: I'ts under 100/mo i


UNDER 100 a month!? farkin' half the people I know can't afford 100 bucks a month that isn't going directly towards food, rent, tax, or something.


Health insurance should be free for people who make less than a certain amount of money.
2012-06-09 03:48:41 AM
3 votes:
Mandates are what's making insurance so damned high. My wife absolutely cannot have any more kids yet Idaho has it mandated that she be covered for pregnancy. WTF? $300 a month more for a medical impossibility? Fark you I hope they all get ass cancer in airport bathrooms.
2012-06-09 01:54:19 AM
3 votes:

Grand_Moff_Joseph: How much do you want to bet that after SCOTUS follows their rightward tilt and strikes down HCA, that bankruptcy rules will be quietly changed so that medical debt joins student loans as "unable to discharge" in bankruptcy?


You realize Debtors prisons have started...

If corporations could get away with it, they would pay people very, very little.
2012-06-08 11:45:18 PM
3 votes:
There's absolutely no way in hell this can end well
2012-06-09 09:05:56 PM
2 votes:
The real reason people are against universal health insurance is big businesses would have trouble retaining valuable employees.

Most successful startups aren't by 20 something college dropouts like Zuck and Gates. They are by 40 something's with kids. This demographic generally avoids such endeavors because the 9-5 provides health insurance for the family and is safe.

If the US suddenly had universal healthcare, experienced employees would suddenly be more mobile to go start their own companies, join small businesses who can't afford coverage for their employees, or even consult.

All the other reasons given are wharrgarbl for this one. That's the big fear. Millions of top employees suddenly free to go elsewhere. Potentially to competitors, or go out on their own and get hired back as higher priced consultants.


FWIW, this would be a huge boon to the economy. Even if 0.001% of those who went this route started successful businesses, we'd see hundreds of thousands of jobs over the next decade. Jobs in all different sectors, states, demographics. All employees would be in play. Even the ones who live in places with few other employers in their area.

That's also why we won't do it. An economic turnaround only benefits the party in power. It hurts the one who is not. Whomever is not in the whitehouse benefits by keeping the economy down.
2012-06-09 01:14:48 PM
2 votes:

rustypouch: Mr. Right: Every time there is a discussion about health care, it is posited, as received wisdom, that health care is a right. What the U.S. has lost sight of is . . .

Quite a rant, but it really shows off your ignorance.


Are you going to try to convince the class that rights do not have attendant responsibilities? Are you going to give examples of where the government does not dictate how moneys from its sponsored programs are spent? Look at welfare. The government will give you money only if you jump through the proper hoops. Look at food stamps. The government will give you money for food but they control what you can buy with it. Medicare? The government decides what it will pay for and how much it will pay. Social Security? The government confiscates 15% of your earnings, takes it completely out of your control and then doles it out to you at its discretion. If you have the misfortune of dying before you reach retirement age, all of the money you earned is gone. These aren't arguable points. They are facts. The only judgement I passed in my "rant" was that I prefer not to participate in that kind of program.

Because you read my post from an extreme leftist point of view, you didn't understand a thing I wrote. My point is this: in order for the government to provide anything for the citizenry, it must first confiscate either the wealth or productivity of its citizens. Our form of government is based on private property rights, thus the government does not own the means of production. The federal government supposedly has limited powers (although they have been increasingly over-stepped since the 1920s). But it does have the responsibility of providing a common defense and other things so it has the right to lay taxes in order to fulfill those responsibilities. If the government spends more money than it takes in, is assumes debt. That debt can only be discharged by, again, collecting money from the citizens. Hopefully, you can deduce from this that any money the government spends on your behalf must come from you or your friends.

This thread is about health insurance. The way insurance normally works is to manage the risk of catastrophe. Health insurance in this country has moved far away from that concept. We believe that a good health insurance plan must cover all medical expenses. Consequently, health insurance is not really an insurance plan at all, rather it is a prepaid health care plan. That difference is significant. The bottom line, however, is that the productive people of society need to make enough money and then be willing to turn it over to either the insurance companies or the government in order for all health care to be paid for. If the productive people of a society are not willing to do that, then the government must assume debt in order to pay for the health care. Private insurance companies will not go into debt. The government will not tolerate the insolvency of a company even while it is rushing headlong into its own insolvency. Thus the insurance company will either raise premiums or slash coverage.

Lest you think we can simply demand that companies pay for the health insurance, they will only insure people who work for them and they will only insure them to a level that the employees earn. Companies must charge their customers for the full cost of what it takes to employ you. That includes all of the employment taxes, any fringe benefits, your cubicle, equipment, and the pittance you actually see on your check stub. If you want a company to pay for a full coverage medical plan (which will cost at least $1000/month), then your employer needs to be able to charge an extra $6/hour ($1000/month x 12 months = $12,000. Divide that by an average FTE 2000 hours/year for $6/hour) Since that is a cost of employment, your employer needs to add that to the price they charge their customers.. You are earning that money for your employer but you have no control over that money. This is a key concept that most folks do not understand. In order for your employer to pay for anything related to you, you must first be productive enough that your employer can charge its customers enough to cover those expenses. But even though you are being productive enough to earn that amount of money, you never see it, you don't get to decide how it is spent, and it may or may not benefit you and your family at any point.

Those who are not productive members of society contribute nothing into that health insurance pot, so you need to earn more to put into the health care system for them to have free medical care. If you have a low paying job, it is entirely possible that you are shelling out 15% of your income to FICA so that others may have free health care while you have no insurance whatsoever. You're earning it, you just don't get to use it. And, even if you earned enough to allow your employer to pay for the insurance, the insurance company dictates which procedures are covered and which are not, the level of compensation for the procedure, how long it takes to reimburse the doctor, etc.

One of the reasons we spend so much on health care in this country is that for every doctor, nurse, and health care provider, there is an army of clerks dedicated to billing the insurance companies and an alternate universe of clerks on the other end deciding what to pay and then a bunch of folks doing battle to resolve the differences, after which you get a bill for what it would really cost in the real world. But all those clerks have taken their chunk of your premium dollar because they aren't going to work for nothing. So doctors charge more to pay their staff, insurance companies charge more to pay their staff, and you're paying for a whole lot of clerical work that has nothing to do with medical procedures or care.

Our system is well and truly broken. I would argue that moving toward a more government-centric system is not the way to go. It is antithetical to the reason our country was founded. Among the many and manifest problems of socialism is that people are much less wiling to work for the benefit of another than they are for themselves. Even if they are willing to work for and with a teammate, sooner or later they realize that they are working for those who choose not to work, regardless of capability, and their zeal wanes. As their productivity wanes, so does their contribution to the system. Regardless of any noble beginning, socialism always grinds down to the same unpleasant conclusion.

Look at Greece and you see the end result of too many years of people believing that they have the rights without assuming the responsibilities.
2012-06-09 11:17:45 AM
2 votes:

rustypouch: Quite a rant, but it really shows off your ignorance.

So you're willing to pay twice as much as the rest of the industrialized world, screw over everyone who isn't rich, and risk bankruptcy because "shocalizm?"


Does it sound to you like he's defending the status quo...namely, what memeslave alluded to:

And they burn all their capital battling lifestyle diseases, dying poor

Because that's what happens now. Government or private insurance, pick your poison - they're both stuck cutting checks for expensive procedures to treat not random cancers and bolts from the blue, but near-100% preventable lifestyle diseases...and we have a federal government that actively promotes policies that have increased the incidence of those diseases.

The solution to that is not to add to the power of a government that cannot wisely or honestly handle the power it has now no matter who's calling the shots, but to subtract from the harm it's already doing.

Killing agriculture subsidies with fire would be a wonderful start.

Fixing the food-stamp program so that it provides actual nutritious food and not a card to go buy crap at Wal-Mart would be another. Is delivering meals and ingredients that much more labor intensive than staffing offices with bureaucrats to administer benefits programs? Even if so, it's worth paying extra for it because of the immense savings down the road.

What Mr. Right said is far from actual GOP policy, though. It's far closer to Gary Johnson than Mitt Romney.
2012-06-09 09:47:18 AM
2 votes:

Day_Old_Dutchie: From outside of the US the problems with you healthcare system boils down to this:

Too many greedy middle-men looking to make obscene profits
Too much greed on the part of goddamn stockholders
Too many really really stupid people conned by propaganda about FREEDOM! (USA FARK YEAH!)
Too many corrupt politicians in the pocket of lobbyists


It looks like that from the inside the U.S. too.
2012-06-09 08:46:33 AM
2 votes:

NickelP: The wife and I are both 26. She works for a small firm and I am self employed so employer health care isn't really on the table. A $2500 deductible plan is around $400-$500 a month last time I looked into it, maybe 2 months ago. A $5000 plan would bankrupt us if we had a serious issue so whats the point.

We have both delayed medical care and pay cash when we really need it. The really frustrating thing is you have no idea what anything will cost, ever. I don't understand how you can have almost anything non-medical done, even if it is completely custom, and get a quote relatively quickly. A doctor recommended my wife get a certain procedure done to treat chronic kidney infections, after a $1500 test showed nothing useful. He pretty much said he wasn't sure if it would help or not but it was the next thing he'd 'try'. She called around to a few different places that offered it and was told by almost all that they didn't know what it would cost, you have to talk to billing. So she calls the billing departments they all say they have no idea, they can only process claims after the fact when they have all the 'codes'. The best we wound up getting was a cost estimate of $500-$5000 or so. This is for a common procedure they do all day long. That is pretty damn helpful when you are trying to decide to take a shot at something or not.....

//CSB

I really wish health care got separated from people's jobs. I think we'd have a lot more options and people would realize how farked up this stuff is.


So very true. I'm a vet so I'm pretty much expected to give an estimate for anything I do and justify the expense to the owner. I often have to discuss several different options before I even get started doing anything. It's annoying, but it makes sense.

I had a lot of fun at the dentist this past month when I asked how much the work they were planning to do would cost. I have insurance but it doesn't cover everything so I just wanted an idea of what my out-of-pocket would be. the dentist and his assistant were visibly uncomfortable for several minutes and it took two managers to even give me an idea (which wasn't accurate). I had the same issue with my doctor's office. I had a reaction to one of the meds he put me. It seemed pretty straightforward but he recommended a test just to make sure there wasn't a bacterial infection. He either didn't know or didn't think to tell me that the test was $300 (I have a $500 deductable). By the time I got the results (which were negative), I was fine because we had changed my meds anyway.

\Many of my clients say they wish their doctor was more like me
\\Many of them also have no idea that the $1000 I charge for major surgery is chump change compared to what a human hospital would charge for the same thing
2012-06-09 08:28:14 AM
2 votes:
WhyteRaven74

How about mandating all employers above a certain size provide top shelf insurance, actual insurance not PPO or HMO crap, with employees picking up no more than 5% of the premium?


Yea, go talk to the unions about that............

Employees (anywhere) are going to have to contribute more than 5% towards their premium, but I'll agree that 500-600/mo for crap coverage is insane.
2012-06-09 08:26:55 AM
2 votes:

Honest Bender: I guess I'm pretty lucky:

Parent's health insurance --> Cheap college insurance --> work health plan

My work health plan doesn't come out of my pay check. Employer deposits money in my HSA account. Annual contributions = annual deductible. I've never been "out of pocket."

Moral of the story: Get a big boy job and you wont need to worry about insurance.


Have a big boy job. Spent 4 years not being able to afford insurance (cheap college insurance? Yeah, try that when you get just enough between loans and a second job to pay rent and eat each semester!) to get it. Still have to pay some out of pocket expenses but I have it better than my parents who are both college educated, had "big boy" jobs, and now have no insurance due to under/unemployment (being laid off is a biatch when you're over 50). I get to watch helplessly as the cost of medical care eats them alive.

Moral of the story: there is so much wrong with this system that "socialism" should be the least of our worries
2012-06-09 08:26:12 AM
2 votes:

Day_Old_Dutchie: From outside of the US the problems with you healthcare system boils down to this:

Too many greedy middle-men looking to make obscene profits
Too much greed on the part of goddamn stockholders
Too many really really stupid people conned by propaganda about FREEDOM! (USA FARK YEAH!)
Too many corrupt politicians in the pocket of lobbyists


Too many people not paying for their healthcare.
Lawyers successfully suing for excessive amounts.
Hospitals and doctors having to find some way to cover the costs.
Hospitals overcharging customers with insurance.
2012-06-09 08:12:09 AM
2 votes:

david_gaithersburg: ....You got me. I'm paying $160,000, four weeks leave, 100% insurance, and 401(k) match to write code for the the Centers For Medicare and Medicaid Services. I'm sooo evil. Seriously, I'm trying to help you you farking asshat. Go to school and take something other than basket weaving, seriously.


OK, I'll play along: I'll sign up for school tomorrow: EXACTLY what classes do I have to take to get the job? Obviously I won't have any experience.
2012-06-09 07:31:54 AM
2 votes:

david_gaithersburg: . Go to school and learn coding, design, and engineering I will give you a job yesterday.


Spot me the dough to go to school to get the engineering degree and I'll have applied to your company THE DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY.

Better yet, give a me a job that's not computer engineering (something I never wanted to do) like... I dunno... teaching and make it so as I can own a house, save money, etc without having to work two or more jobs just to make ends meet.

Meanwhile Adam Carolla's doing one job at a theater and making a month's salary in a day for basically whining with charisma on stage (he's good at what he does, don't get me wrong) but then claims us teachers need to make LESS money because we have too much time on our hands to have that second job. NOBODY WANTS THE SECOND JOB! It's something you NEED because all that "vacation" over summer breaks is UNPAID! Give us 12 decent paychecks a year and let us work like normal people instead of having to grade papers all night and mix drinks all weekend.
2012-06-09 07:03:08 AM
2 votes:
I barely make enough money to pay $300 in rent every month, how the fark do you expect me to pay for health insurance?
2012-06-09 06:40:54 AM
2 votes:

Gulper Eel: Likwit: Yeah... Socialized medicine isn't always great, though. I think we need reform, but we need to be careful about what we do... Systems like the Canadian one seem great, but it blows over here in Japan. I'm a 25-year-old, fit, non-smoker and I pay 200 bucks a month (using a 100yen to 1dollar exchange rate). 200 a month and I still have to pay 30% of whatever my hospital bill is.

Plus, the doctors blow... Man, do I have some stories, boy. I tell you what, kid.

But taking all this money and power out of the insurance industry's hands and putting it in politicians' hands will make everything peachy, you hater.

The person who's mainly responsible for health care is looking at you in the mirror. Anything health-related which that person is unable to handle themselves...or unwilling to handle, and given the number of fatasses, smokers, tanners, drunks, drug users, nutcase drivers, and people who make maladaptive sexual choices, there are a LOT of the unwilling...becomes either a business decision or a political decision (or both). Through our actions we have placed a major financial and political value on having somebody else maintain our health for us.

We want to have our cake and eat it too and have more cake.

The only way to knock that dollar/political value down is to take better care of yourself so that the most common and most preventable high-dollar problems like cardiovascular disease and diabetes don't get you.

/slowly losing weight


This is one of the most judgemental posts I've read in a while with spectacularly ill conceived conclusions. A touch of truth with a giant helping of spin.
2012-06-09 06:36:05 AM
2 votes:

the ha ha guy: No_Good_Name: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: If Boomers would start dieing or retiring, I'd be more than happy to get a better job and buy health insurance.

I'm 48 with a family to support with my health insurance. How would my dieing or retiring help the situation? Don't make this a generational war. Make this about getting affordable healthcare for all generations.

The Boomers already made it a generational war when they fought tooth and nail to screw over everyone younger than they are, while making sure they still get theirs.


I could wish that you young farkers would all commit mass suicide too, so you'll free up more jobs for the rest of us. What then? I'm sure the rich just love it when fellow 99%ers fight amongst themselves for the scraps that the 1% throw on the ground too.

The problem isn't that the boomers or any other particular demographic exist(s); the problem is that the medical coverage system is hosed.
2012-06-09 06:29:10 AM
2 votes:
Yeah, 28, uninsured, mountains of medical debt from emergency surgeries when I was 18. I haven't ever really been able to make enough to pay it off. I had (what was sold as) medical insurance for a few years, through work (30 bucks from me, 30 from my employer a month.) But it turned out to be a scam. Tried to get insurance at a recent job and my portion was 75 a paycheck. Oh, well. I have had a sore on my leg for five years that won't go away, but I can't afford to do anything about it beyond when I went to a clinic and the doctor looked at it for two seconds before telling me to put some antibiotic cream on it, and if that doesn't work try an antifungal. Arseface then sent me a bill that was as huge as you'd expect for not fixing my problem.
2012-06-09 06:17:53 AM
2 votes:
Insurance costs alot of money and, when your paycheck already costs close to the bone, its a painful sacrifice.
Some people will opt to play the odds (And there will be tragedies as a result).

The politicians could have just fixed the system, but its not in their interest either.
2012-06-09 06:05:42 AM
2 votes:
Nothing is free. You paid for it in other ways, and other people helped you pay for it.

According to this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/16/us-healthcare-costs-double-r e port_n_862677.html

American families pay on average $19,000 per year in health insurance.

Since the average family here in New Zealand (with State-funded healthcare) only pays around $20,000 in total taxes per year, then American families must be paying through the nose when you add federal and state taxes to their health insurance bill.

Sure, we may not get 'average' medical procedures actioned as quickly as American's can, but since we're only paying about half as much to get a pretty similar service, I know which system I prefer!
2012-06-09 05:35:30 AM
2 votes:

WhyteRaven74: How about mandating all employers above a certain size provide top shelf insurance, actual insurance not PPO or HMO crap, with employees picking up no more than 5% of the premium?


Ah! It's who you work for that should have the Social Responsibility? What about the people who don't work for large organizations? Who shells out for their top-shelf insurance?

Here's a real head-scratcha: Whatever happened to the notion that we should all be allowed access to healthcare, regardless of social status? Is that not some anciently established human right in the '1st' world?
2012-06-09 05:25:20 AM
2 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: farkityfarker: As a Canadian who recently broke his wrist and had it fixed for free as opposed to the $20K I would have paid as an American, I'm getting a kick out of this...

Nothing is free. You paid for it in other ways, and other people helped you pay for it. Is there a pie chart comparing taxes for Canadians and Americans versus government spending for Canadians versus Americans?


ExperianScaresCthulhu: aiiee: that's not bright kids. Get the catastrophic coverage that only kicks in after 5000 has been spent. I'ts under 100/mo if you're under 30

$100 a month/$50 bi-weekly is a lot of money. what is the math about how much of one's net income one should take home before it's feasible to spend $100 a month on health insurance?


Oh, FFS, make up your mind... in your opinion which is the most evil? The system that puts private persons (who can't even afford to pay $100/month, y'know?) into $20,000 of debt because they got sick, or the other option (yes, not free, we all contribute by paying taxes, duuur), where nobody on the bread line is hurled into $20,000 debt (several hundred thousand for certain treatments) simply for getting sick?

Social Responsibility. SAID: CAN I GET A WITNESS!!
2012-06-09 05:23:40 AM
2 votes:

zzrhardy: Why does the USA tie health insurance to employment? I just don't see why they should be linked. Health insurance should just be between the individual and the insurer.

Your system sounds... anti-competitive, and it seems that you are not the customer that the insurer needs to keep, instead your boss is. Wouldn't that promote kickbacks?


It's actually kind of an accident of a system in the first place. During WWII the US had wage controls in place, but benefits like healthcare were excluded, so companies started offering insurance to attract employees instead.

But like a lot of things we put in place at that time, it's become entrenched and now has entire lobbies dedicated to perpetuating its own existence.
2012-06-09 05:20:27 AM
2 votes:
Adding my vote for free health care. How stupid is it to value profit over your own citizens. Plus, I've always thought that having to pay for health care kinda goes against that whole life-liberty-pursuit of happiness thing...
2012-06-09 05:12:27 AM
2 votes:
Damn that sounds farking terrible.

/Canadian
2012-06-09 05:06:48 AM
2 votes:
I got a bill for three grand today for a stay in the ER last month which consisted mostly of IV fluids (super wasted in public, police made me go). That's some bullshiat, send that to collections, I can't pay that. I am twenty six and have donated my -O cmv negative premature baby blood every two months since I was seventeen, the red cross makes money on it, then the hospital makes money on it and I get a bill for three grand for some suger water. Its a good thing I dont see much promise for the rest of my life or otherwise I might be concerned about getting a bill I cannot pay. But I dont, so im not sweating it too much. I figure I am just not deemed productive enough by society to have rational heathcare available to me.
2012-06-09 05:02:48 AM
2 votes:

relcec: listen raven, you are out of your depth. y


No I'm not out of my depth. I just happen to think insurance should have absolutely no say so in where someone goes to a doctor or a hospital, ever. You know, like in the rest of the world. Also, on the employer side, if you're not willing to take care of your employees, you shouldn't be running things.
2012-06-09 04:59:44 AM
2 votes:
Last time I paid for health insurance, my employer didn't contribute anything even though the plan was through them. It cost me literally 75% of my take home pay every pay period to insure my husband and I. That is unacceptable and just not feasible. If I had been the sole income there is no way I could have afforded even that much. We're without insurance right now, unfortunately, though I may be able to pick up some from the local university in the fall if I take a few throw away classes. Fortunately, the state is covering my son, so, yay for socialism in that accident prone childhood phase of learning to walk!
2012-06-09 04:55:22 AM
2 votes:

Jz4p: I just turned 25. I haven't had health care since I graduated college (Engineering). I'm looking for a good job right now, and I'm afraid I won't be able to ask for health insurance in this economy.


Good thing you qualified your degree. Fark wil surely give you insurance.
2012-06-09 04:52:49 AM
2 votes:
WhyteRaven74 I'm actually surprised no one has gone after one or a few on bad faith grounds. They're taking money then trying to weasel out of paying claims, basically they're selling something they have no intention of making good on if they can help it. Which isn't exactly proper.

Fo reals right? But guess who is in the pockets of the insurance companies........pro tip hint.........it starts at the state legislative level and works its way up.......You will never get health care insurance to provide for health care as they "advert" They do not give a shiat and more importantly have paid enough people off that they do not have to. Why do you think that congress and the senate pay a fraction of what you would have to for SUPERIOR health care coverage? F*ckers have been bought off. Time for the revolution....or meh.....

Oh look...somebody is smoking weed.........lets bust them........
2012-06-09 04:50:12 AM
2 votes:

WhyteRaven74: tinfoil-hat maggie: insurance companies are evil and get out of paying anyway they can.

I'm actually surprised no one has gone after one or a few on bad faith grounds. They're taking money then trying to weasel out of paying claims, basically they're selling something they have no intention of making good on if they can help it. Which isn't exactly proper.


Who has 20 years to spend in court that actually needed medical help? They have lawyers and the law on there side right or wrong.
2012-06-09 04:35:17 AM
2 votes:
I had a "mild" heart attack in Feb. and I'm unisured, so I'm really getting a kick out of this thread. Well, sort of, I'm in my 30's so I guess I don't count. Yay for undiagnosed diabetes. They really get you coming and going-I now order farkin' Plavix from Canada due to it being $200 a month in the US.

So far down the hole that I might as join the mole men.
2012-06-09 04:31:36 AM
2 votes:

Esroc: Some people aren't realizing that many of us twenty-somethings just don't give a flyin' fark anymore. Our parents and grandparents wiped their asses with this country and told us "good luck!" while they collect the last retirement checks anyone will ever get.

So forgive me if I'm not exactly wild about tossing gobs of cash at men in suits on the off chance it might prolong my stay in this world.


this. you left us a rotting corpse, and you expect us to buy into your bullshiat?

my grandfather bought a house for 3000, my dad for 30k, i dont have 300k. i dont own a car, or ever expect to have the lifestyle enjoyed by my previous generation. fark it, i just want to watch the world burn.
2012-06-09 04:30:59 AM
2 votes:

WhyteRaven74: How about mandating all employers above a certain size provide top shelf insurance, actual insurance not PPO or HMO crap, with employees picking up no more than 5% of the premium?


mom and pops can't afford it and would be destroyed, and bigger companies will have the lawyers at their disposal to loophole their way out of it. or both mom&pops and globalmegacorp will say 'fk it' to employees and go the contract worker route (or the fake franchisee route).
2012-06-09 04:26:54 AM
2 votes:
How about mandating all employers above a certain size provide top shelf insurance, actual insurance not PPO or HMO crap, with employees picking up no more than 5% of the premium?
2012-06-09 04:24:50 AM
2 votes:
soo glad we are running this country down the crapper. can't wait till i explain to my children why it's better to not try at life and get everything from the govt rather then try to actually earn a living in the workforce
2012-06-09 04:24:09 AM
2 votes:

strangeluck: I have health insurance with my current job, but it's totally worthless, and I keep seriously thinking of dropping it. It covers so little, like seriously will barely cover one doctor's visit for the entire year, and even then I get an overage bill between $50-$100. But as one of my co-workers tells me, it may not cover anything, but it gets you in the door, while the people without insurance are stuck in the lobby waiting longer.

I don't know if that's really true about them waiting longer.

/American healthcare sucks.
//Trying to find that better job with better insurance.
///Slashies are strange.


if it is a big insurance company, like a name we would all know, then even if they aren't paying much of anything, at the very least it is serving the function of negotiating a fairly significant discount for you from the provider. you won't ever be paying retail rates if something really bad happens to you. those undiscounted prices will knock you on your ass if you have never seen them.

more importantly if you develop a chronic condition while you are without insurance that will be deemed to be a preexisting condition, and depending on how good the insurance is at your next place of work they might not pick it up. but if you have maintained insurance constantly then the new employer will have to pay for the condition.
you should keep it if you can stand to.
2012-06-09 04:20:21 AM
2 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: sat1va: ExperianScaresCthulhu: farkityfarker: As a Canadian who recently broke his wrist and had it fixed for free as opposed to the $20K I would have paid as an American, I'm getting a kick out of this...

Nothing is free. You paid for it in other ways, and other people helped you pay for it. Is there a pie chart comparing taxes for Canadians and Americans versus government spending for Canadians versus Americans?

[upload.wikimedia.org image 562x479]

Sorry it's not a pie chart, but it was quick and dirty from Wikipedia.

/hot

Thank you. Everyone's numbers look the same. The dollar amounts are different, but the increases look the same. But I'm not sure what I'm looking at here. Is this how much individuals spend, or how much the government spends?


From the wikipedia article here:

In 2004, government funding of health care in Canada was equivalent to [US$] 1,893 per person. In the U.S. government spending per person was US$ 2,728.
It is important to note that the Canadian healthcare system is actually composed of at least 10 mostly autonomous provincial healthcare systems, and a federal system which covers veterans. This causes a significant degree of variation in funding and coverage within the country.
2012-06-09 04:07:12 AM
2 votes:
i739.photobucket.com
2012-06-09 04:05:27 AM
2 votes:

Grand_Moff_Joseph: How much do you want to bet that after SCOTUS follows their rightward tilt and strikes down HCA, that bankruptcy rules will be quietly changed so that medical debt joins student loans as "unable to discharge" in bankruptcy?


That would be a groovy way to kill off the population, actually. However, that would also change how the ambulance and emergency system works, wouldn't it? if a person is unconscious in an accident and is taken into emergency, did they make that decision to make those expenses, which is now unable to be discharged?

It would also change how insurance itself works, since some medical debt is because the insurance companies decided not to cover a condition after all? Or the paperwork got lost?

What happens to the person who pays their premiums, is told everything is taken care of, then six months later they're battling their insurance company's lawyers? or five years later they're getting 'that call' for a zombie medical debt?
2012-06-09 03:56:32 AM
2 votes:

Darth_Lukecash: Grand_Moff_Joseph: How much do you want to bet that after SCOTUS follows their rightward tilt and strikes down HCA, that bankruptcy rules will be quietly changed so that medical debt joins student loans as "unable to discharge" in bankruptcy?

You realize Debtors prisons have started...

If corporations could get away with it, they would pay people very, very little.


Great. Combine this practice with private, for-profit prisons and you have a perfect storm of corporate totalitarianism.
2012-06-09 03:45:21 AM
2 votes:

aiiee: that's not bright kids. Get the catastrophic coverage that only kicks in after 5000 has been spent. I'ts under 100/mo if you're under 30


this is what I have. $78 a month
2012-06-09 12:22:56 AM
2 votes:

aiiee: that's not bright kids. Get the catastrophic coverage that only kicks in after 5000 has been spent. I'ts under 100/mo if you're under 30


Should be a heck of a lot cheaper than that.
2012-06-09 12:09:20 AM
2 votes:
i.imgur.com
2012-06-08 11:01:05 PM
2 votes:
that's not bright kids. Get the catastrophic coverage that only kicks in after 5000 has been spent. I'ts under 100/mo if you're under 30
2012-06-10 09:00:36 AM
1 votes:

DIGITALgimpus: The real reason people are against universal health insurance is big businesses would have trouble retaining valuable employees.

Most successful startups aren't by 20 something college dropouts like Zuck and Gates. They are by 40 something's with kids. This demographic generally avoids such endeavors because the 9-5 provides health insurance for the family and is safe.

If the US suddenly had universal healthcare, experienced employees would suddenly be more mobile to go start their own companies, join small businesses who can't afford coverage for their employees, or even consult.

All the other reasons given are wharrgarbl for this one. That's the big fear. Millions of top employees suddenly free to go elsewhere. Potentially to competitors, or go out on their own and get hired back as higher priced consultants.


FWIW, this would be a huge boon to the economy. Even if 0.001% of those who went this route started successful businesses, we'd see hundreds of thousands of jobs over the next decade. Jobs in all different sectors, states, demographics. All employees would be in play. Even the ones who live in places with few other employers in their area.

That's also why we won't do it. An economic turnaround only benefits the party in power. It hurts the one who is not. Whomever is not in the whitehouse benefits by keeping the economy down.


THIS

Health insurance is the golden handcuff. If health insurance and employment were no longer tied together, employees would no longer have to work at a company just for the benefits. They would be free to, as you said before, start their own companies, hop to other companies or be independent consultants. The main reason people don't start, or go to work for smaller businesses, is because they can't afford health insurance on their own.

Employers could no longer use health insurance as a carrot to get and keep employees. They'd have to start to compete on other things, like salary and vacation time.

Would taxes increase to pay for single payer? Yes. But to counter-balance that, the amount people pay out of their paychecks for privately run health insurance would go down or be eliminated entirely. Also, as more people start businesses as they were no longer handcuffed by health insurance, jobs get created and those people would be paying taxes, too.

Of course, try explaining the economic effects of single payer and all you'll get in response is "SOCIOLISM!111!"
2012-06-09 10:50:59 PM
1 votes:

aiiee: that's not bright kids. Get the catastrophic coverage that only kicks in after 5000 has been spent. I'ts under 100/mo if you're under 30


I called around to every insurance company a few years ago when I was in between jobs. Not one of them wrote catastrophic coverage unless the policy holder also had a regular plan first. I'm not sure if it is because I am in NYS but I thought it was pretty shiatty.

I just wanted a plan that would pay if i got hurt or sick. I didn't want any of that other crap like Wellness visits and physical exams. I would pay for those out of my pocket if i wanted to have one.

I have been employed for about 25 years. Each year I have purchased health plans at my employer and they have ranged from 3000 to 5000 a year for a single male. Add it up. That's a lot of crap I am buying for other people. I haven't purchased 1000 bucks total in healthcare in all that time added up.
2012-06-09 10:00:55 PM
1 votes:
Government health care uses taxpayer money to compete with taxpayers for the SAME LIMITED AMOUNT OF HEALTHCARE. It does not increase coverage - just inefficiency and waste. If we're really serious about covering more people, we should be subsidizing medical schools and passing some serious lawsuit (especially tort) reform, and getting government the heck out of healthcare.
2012-06-09 06:58:42 PM
1 votes:
Count me among them. I was fired from my last job after I hurt myself and could no longer do my job. COBRA payments were one third ($241 p/month) on my unenjoyment benefits, and with it being high deductible insurance, the specialist visits ate up all the remaining money, because every visit to him was $150, and I was supposed to visit at least once a week. I couldn't get medicaid because I made too much, and GFL finding doctors that take medicaid even if I *could* get it. Funnily enough, thanks to financial aid, I'm going back to school to become a medical paper pusher.
2012-06-09 03:23:59 PM
1 votes:

kab: Moral of the story: Get a big boy job and you wont need to worry about insurance. I guess I'm pretty lucky


Thank Glob I'm a white male...
2012-06-09 03:22:55 PM
1 votes:
I got my first (part-time) job at age 16 as an office worker in a Fortune 500 company back in 1976. Even as a part-timer I got a Blue Cross card that entitled me to many benefits; when I went full time after graduating from high school I received the full "gold card" Blue Cross benefits. I never took advantage of what was offered because I was young and healthy. There were older employees who had heart attacks or who had kids with leukemia and such that truly needed such coverage, but they were the exception rather than the rule. I remember my one great extravagance during that time was using the company's eye care coverage to get a pair of designer Rive Gauche eyeglasses for only $30. But that was a time when CT scans were a major test ordered only by certain specialists and there was no such thing as an MRI. Many of our senior execs who suffered a sudden heart attack died because there wasn't the (very expensive) technology now available to keep them alive. I was fortunate for a time because once I was diagnosed with Lupus I still had that gold card coverage and all of my many expensive prescriptions only cost me a $2 co-pay. But that didn't last forever. As technology progressed and more and more people were being kept alive the costs increased. Eventually when I was job-searching it became a matter of what health care benefits were offered versus the salary.

And before anyone piles on with the Canadian model as a solution, let the record show that I live near Windsor, Ontario, and have (unfortunately) spent more time in hospitals and diagnostic offices in the last 10 years than I care to count, thanks to aging parents. While sitting in the waiting room at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit waiting for my Mom to finish her MRI I chatted with the many people in the waiting room. I was the sole American; all the rest were Canadians who were paying for the test on their own rather than undergoing the lengthy wait at home. At Henry Ford Bi-County Hospital in Warren I interviewed several staff members as part of an article (to kill time while trading bedside sitting duty for heart patient Dad with my siblings) and they estimated that 40% of the patients in that ward were Canadian.
kab
2012-06-09 02:29:01 PM
1 votes:

Honest Bender: I guess I'm pretty lucky:

Parent's health insurance --> Cheap college insurance --> work health plan

My work health plan doesn't come out of my pay check. Employer deposits money in my HSA account. Annual contributions = annual deductible. I've never been "out of pocket."

Moral of the story: Get a big boy job and you wont need to worry about insurance. I guess I'm pretty lucky

2012-06-09 02:28:17 PM
1 votes:

david_gaithersburg: You got me. I'm paying $160,000, four weeks leave, 100% insurance, and 401(k) match to write code for the the Centers For Medicare and Medicaid Services. I'm sooo evil. Seriously, I'm trying to help you you farking asshat. Go to school and take something other than basket weaving, seriously.


And only two months ago you were a "Daytrader/Speculator". Change of career, is it?
kab
2012-06-09 02:23:42 PM
1 votes:
How exactly is this a new or recent development? When you're young, and make shiat for wages, anything like this seems excessive, so you tend to think that you're better off going without it. When children are brought into the picture, then you re-think things.

What's next, a report that most motorists who own their own vehicles opt for basic coverage?
2012-06-09 02:11:45 PM
1 votes:

PsiChick: Smeggy Smurf: cptjeff: Smeggy Smurf:
Fark that I want no mandates and the option to purchase across state lines. The free market will provide better options than a one size fits all ass raping. The government can't even run a goddamned whorehouse let alone provide decent health care.

The 'free market' bullshiat is exactly why TFA is happening. If everyone agrees to raise prices, only the wealthy can buy health care. This has already happened. This is why you're getting 'ass raped', not the government.

A true free market means you buy freedom. There have to be reasonable rules. Those are called 'laws', and it's why we have a government.


a lot of our healthcare problems are caused by the government.
for instance the government limits the supply of doctors here in america by holding back medicare residency funds IN ORDER TO INCREASE THE SALARIES OF DOCTORS AT THE EXPENSE OF PATIENT HEALTH.
the government has intentionally decreased the supply of doctors since 1997 in order that we could all pay more.
our government chose making a group of rich people richer over increasing access and thus many people have actually died from this ridiculous rent seeking.

additionally think of all the unnecessary regulations in place that are designed to get you to go to a primary care provider even though you don't really need to see one. there are millions of kinds of medications that are relativity safe, have low abuse potential, and aren't designed to be used on infectious diseases so over use by the population won't cause resistant strains of disease. I myself have had to go to the doctor once every 6 months for the past 13 years to get a script of lunesta.

it's cost me about $3200 to get the same doctor to continually right me the same script of the same drug that is non habit forming, that you can't derive pleasure from imbibing, that is fairly safe, even though my health has been stable for the past decade. it's a f*cking money grab. the government wants the doctor to have my money more than me. they have the best god damn guild in history of the world. they got our government to chose rich doctors over healthy citizens a long time ago.

that's not to say that I think if the government buts out we can solve the problems with this system. I actually am convinced complete government takeover of healthcare is the only thing that can begin to slow inflation, which is the real problem. unfortunately inflation is the providers best friend. they are the ones who create it because it means they get paid more. so the government is going to have to fight for its citizens against a very powerful interest group at some point if this is going to actually get fixed.
2012-06-09 01:58:51 PM
1 votes:

give me doughnuts: Fissile: Socialized medicine! Where does the government get off trying to force people to have medical insurance? It's anti-capitalist! Ayn Rand is turning over in her grave!

[mysite.verizon.net image 500x417]

The Founding Fathers did it.


Ah, yes. The fund to take care of drunken sailors in their dotage.

Most folks in those days longed to be property owners. It was the unique feature of the U.S. European countries didn't allow commoners to own property in those days. That property and the income that could be derived from it is what the middle class relied on for retirement. Sailors had no such opportunity. Thus, Congress enforced a savings plan from seamen that would provide for them when they became unable to adequately perform aboard a ship. Sailors tended to be somewhat rootless in those days. Where do you suppose the term "spending like a drunken sailor" came from? They were the grasshoppers of their day.
2012-06-09 01:54:37 PM
1 votes:
I had no insurance from the age of 18 until 32. I had kidney stones in my early 20s and it cost me $1200 to spend a few hours at the emergency room getting saline and morphine. I got a job at a huge company as a drone in 2003. Six months in, I got some decent insurance. In June 2005, I had an appendectomy. It cost me $250. The actual bill was for $36,000 (I was checked in for less than 24 hours). If I had needed that emergency surgery just 2 years earlier, I would likely still be paying it off today.

I was pricing insurance in the early 2000s and it was coming up to $250-300/month for anything that wasn't strictly catastrophic (California, non-smoker, early 30s, generally healthy). Since my income was sufficient to cover that at the time, I didn't get any.

If they had made it realistically affordable, I would have gladly paid $100/month for decent coverage.
2012-06-09 01:23:05 PM
1 votes:
$100/mo is most of these kid's cell phone plans. The phone is more important, that's all.

Doesn't change the fact that US healthcare industry is effectively broken. Need to start on the other end from insurance though. Why the fark does it cost $57k for a 40-day stay in the hospital? That's $10k more than the average household gross income in this country. For four farking days!

Couple that with the fact that non-profit hospitals such as University of Cincinnati were "non-profit" to the tune of +$600 million over the last couple years and it leaves you scratching your head.

We'll end up with single payer some day. It probably won't be as good a service as what many have today, but everyone will have it. Either that or this country will end up going down the drain and nobody but the top of the heap will have medical care.
2012-06-09 01:19:55 PM
1 votes:

BMFPitt: I have a friend that got an extra 11k in salary for not taking the company's insurance.


You have a very lucky friend. My previous employer (whose insurance cost $450/mo for an individual under COBRA) would give something like $50 per paycheck in exchange for declining insurance coverage.
2012-06-09 12:55:56 PM
1 votes:
Before I got laid off, I was working in a field where income hasn't gone up in 30 years. I crunched the numbers, and when taking inflation into consideration, I was making about 30% of the income I would have back in the 80's. That's the problem with the economy now. No one wants to pay a decent wage. The irony is, the bigwigs are devaluing their own money that way.

When the average Joe doesn't have the money he needs to afford more than basic necessity, luxuries go out the window. When he's not buying luxuries, the price goes up because they become more expensive to manufacture. When luxuries get more expensive, the people building those luxuries get their wages cut to make up for the lack of profit. It's an endless cycle.

Capitalism doesn't work in an environment devoid of generosity. Socialism won't work in that same environment. The government just replaces the corporations as the greedy farkers who drive the system by raising taxes and devaluing the very currency they print.

Greed is the enemy of America.

/rant off.
2012-06-09 12:24:43 PM
1 votes:

capitafun: aiiee: that's not bright kids. Get the catastrophic coverage that only kicks in after 5000 has been spent. I'ts under 100/mo if you're under 30

I would love a link. I've not been able to get a quote for less than $140.00. Complete bullshiat they don't take into account your individual health. Instead I'm stuck paying for all you fatties that don't do shiat to keep yourselves in good shape.


This. I go out of my way to maintain a healthy lifestyle, but the ridiculous quotes I get for insurance imply id be subsidising less responsible peoples healthcare. Just like my car insurance... been paying that every month for 15 years, never even come close to having a claim, because I drive carefully and observe my surroundings. My buddy has totaled SEVEN cars since he started driving. The difference in our premiums is like $200 a month. I really dont think that covers the cost difference of insuring him vs me.

/Damn, thats like $30k in car insurance. Assholes.
2012-06-09 12:04:35 PM
1 votes:

aiiee: that's not bright kids. Get the catastrophic coverage that only kicks in after 5000 has been spent. I'ts under 100/mo if you're under 30


I would love a link. I've not been able to get a quote for less than $140.00. Complete bullshiat they don't take into account your individual health. Instead I'm stuck paying for all you fatties that don't do shiat to keep yourselves in good shape.
2012-06-09 11:58:06 AM
1 votes:
Headline and article don't match. The article says they're avoiding health care, not health insurance. They seem to have insurance, they just don't want to pay co-pays and deductibles. Like the guy who says he can't afford to pay 50% of an MRI for twisting a knee on the soccer field. Well, I have really good insurance, and I'd still have to pay several thousand for an MRI too. Those machines are expensive. Health insurance does not equal free. You'll still have deductibles and co-pays and things.
2012-06-09 11:51:49 AM
1 votes:
If I go to a farking mechanic they're required to give me a quote and stay within 10% of that quoted price.

The medical market is completely FUBAR. The only way to fix it is to start letting people see the real costs and values out of what they receive, before they sign on for treatment.
2012-06-09 10:29:35 AM
1 votes:

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: If Boomers would start dieing or retiring, I'd be more than happy to get a better job and buy health insurance.


And this is the real problem. You end up sitting in the waiting room until you're 60 because your parents don't die when you're 40 anymore. And they burn all their capital battling lifestyle diseases, dying poor. That's why wealth is draining from the country - we're eating our seed corn.
2012-06-09 10:20:22 AM
1 votes:
Thankfully, I have Romneycare from when Mittens was here being a commie. Too bad he's running as Mittens the fascist; now I have to vote for Obama the commie.

/commie

//Romneycare FTW

///never had insurance before
2012-06-09 10:00:14 AM
1 votes:

cherryl taggart: Whoever is paying the bill gets to call the shots. It's really as simple as that, unfortunately. When you hand over your hard-earned money to someone who says, "trust me, kid, I'll take good care of this," you had better understand what that entity is saying. Insurance companies exist to make money for the shareholders, and the only way they make money is to take premium money and delay or deny payment of claims for as long as possible. And the policies they offer always benefit them not the purchaser.

I have not carried health or disability insurance since 1996, for a variety of reasons. Some doctors don't like me, because I delay treatment until I can afford it, or look for cheaper alternatives like diet and exercise before surgery. Other doctors like me, because when I have treatment, I pay, with no third-party hassles.

But, the majority of doctors don't like being compared to tradesmen, which is how I have come to view them. Yes, they have many years of education and this is my life they want to treat, but I get second and third opinions about car repairs and maintenance before committing money. If a plumber, electrician, or mechanic can give me some parameters and options on costs and repairs, why do doctors think they get an exemption? Failure on my part with any plumbing, electrical or vehicular issue can cost me my life, so give me the info I need, let me make the decision, and don't take it personally when I don't follow you unquestioningly. Your title is MD, not GOD.

/sorry for the rant


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(and that's not a rant. that's truth.)
2012-06-09 09:53:20 AM
1 votes:
Every time there is a discussion about health care, it is posited, as received wisdom, that health care is a right. What the U.S. has lost sight of is that, in a free country, no rights exist without assuming concomitant responsibility. We have the right to life only so long as we respect the rights of others to live. Should we deprive someone of that right, we lose our own right to live. We have the right to live wherever we want, so long as we assume the responsibility of paying for that domicile. With health care, we want the right without the responsibility.

The problem we will certainly run into is that abrogation of responsibility will lead to loss of the right. If I expect someone else to assume the responsibility of paying for my housing, whoever does so will eventually assume the right to tell me where I may live. Consider, if you are a renter, the landlord retains the right to insist that you maintain the house in good order or they will terminate your lease even if you are paying the rent. Your mortgage holder can call the loan if you do not maintain your property in such a manner that the house has sufficient resale value to cover their loan. Likewise with health insurance - if you insist that someone else pay for it, then you will ultimately get whatever it is they think you should have. Here's a real stickler - if you expect your employer to pay for your health insurance, they get to dictate what kind of health insurance you will have. But, in order for them to be able to pay for that insurance, you need to produce enough profit for the company that they can afford to employ you. So you're doing the work and a large chunk of your value to the company is being confiscated and spent in a manner that may not be in your best interest.

Expecting government or employers to assume responsibility may sit easier with European countries than with many in the U.S. because they grew up in feudalism. That was the system where the serfs had no rights but they also had few responsibilities - the landed classes provided. It's why they were called subjects. Or look at slavery - a system we fortunately overthrew. The slaves had no freedoms, no rights. But they didn't have to worry about where to live - that was provided. They didn't have to worry about shopping for clothes - those were provided. They didn't have to decide which crops to plant - that was dictated. They didn't have to find a spouse, whether or not they were allowed to breed was dictated. Marriages were routinely ignored by slaveholders. In other words, the slaveowner had assumed the right to own them and with that ownership came the responsibility to care and provide for them. Some slaveholders were fairly benificent, others were genuinely evil and treated their slaves reprehensibly. But either way, the slave was dependent on the generosity of the owner because they did not have the right, or the responsibility, to provide for themselves.

When we put more and more responsibility on the government, the government will assume more and more of our rights. Take the birth control debate. If insurance carriers are required to cover contraception, at some point (when things get tight), they will dictate the kind of contraception you are allowed to use. When we demand that the government fund college education, even if it is only the underwriting of student loans, at some point in the not too distant future, there will be a government advisory board that will decide who gets to go to which colleges and universities and what their majors will be. Because they're not going to fund an art history degree when there's a better than average chance you won't pay them back. They're not going to fund everyone going to an Ivy league school when the tuition at the trade school is only 15% of that and there are openings for left-handed wire solderers.

The abrogation of responsibility by an ever-increasing chunk of the population is what will kill the middle class. The more responsibility for your care and keeping the government assumes, the larger chunk of your productivity it will assume. When the government takes that much of your paycheck (often without you even realizing it), your ability set a little aside and get ahead is reduced to zero. The rich, of course, can pay all of those fees and taxes in stride and still accumulate wealth. A few clever folks (like Drew or Zuckerman) will rise "above their station." Some of the rich will fall. But, by and large, the divide between the classes get bigger the more the government takes over our lives.

Some of us would rather avoid that.
2012-06-09 09:42:26 AM
1 votes:

farkityfarker: Too bad the public option was killed by the Republicans.


As if. Obama was ready to proceed with public option until aheadcount showed he didn't have enough Democrats to pass it either.

/you probably knew that. +1
2012-06-09 09:33:08 AM
1 votes:

Forbidden Doughnut: strangeluck: /American healthcare sucks.
//Trying to find that better job with better insurance.

It really seems odd to me that more big corporations ( like the one I work with ) haven't jumped aboard the "single-payer" train. All of them would save a farkton of money not having to pay the middle-men ( eg. insurance companies)


They don't want to lose their slaves. If people didn't need them for health insurance benefits they might leave.
2012-06-09 09:26:44 AM
1 votes:

david_gaithersburg: How can I afford healthcare when I've got a cell phone, iPad, cable TV, and a TV bigger than my car to take care of.


The funny thing is, those things you listed dont even come close to the cost of health care.
2012-06-09 09:18:09 AM
1 votes:
Whoever is paying the bill gets to call the shots. It's really as simple as that, unfortunately. When you hand over your hard-earned money to someone who says, "trust me, kid, I'll take good care of this," you had better understand what that entity is saying. Insurance companies exist to make money for the shareholders, and the only way they make money is to take premium money and delay or deny payment of claims for as long as possible. And the policies they offer always benefit them not the purchaser.

I have not carried health or disability insurance since 1996, for a variety of reasons. Some doctors don't like me, because I delay treatment until I can afford it, or look for cheaper alternatives like diet and exercise before surgery. Other doctors like me, because when I have treatment, I pay, with no third-party hassles.

But, the majority of doctors don't like being compared to tradesmen, which is how I have come to view them. Yes, they have many years of education and this is my life they want to treat, but I get second and third opinions about car repairs and maintenance before committing money. If a plumber, electrician, or mechanic can give me some parameters and options on costs and repairs, why do doctors think they get an exemption? Failure on my part with any plumbing, electrical or vehicular issue can cost me my life, so give me the info I need, let me make the decision, and don't take it personally when I don't follow you unquestioningly. Your title is MD, not GOD.

/sorry for the rant
2012-06-09 09:18:03 AM
1 votes:

strangeluck: /American healthcare sucks.
//Trying to find that better job with better insurance.


It really seems odd to me that more big corporations ( like the one I work with ) haven't jumped aboard the "single-payer" train. All of them would save a farkton of money not having to pay the middle-men ( eg. insurance companies)
2012-06-09 09:15:27 AM
1 votes:

farkityfarker: As a Canadian who recently broke his wrist and had it fixed for free as opposed to the $20K I would have paid as an American, I'm getting a kick out of this...


Catastrophic injuries always get priority in social health care, what needs to be fixed are pricing methods. When other nations have price limits in what pharmaceutical companies can charge it makes it worse when they charge us to make up the difference.

The industry needs fixing and the HCA would fix nothing
2012-06-09 09:12:11 AM
1 votes:

badhatharry: NickelP: badhatharry: Day_Old_Dutchie: From outside of the US the problems with you healthcare system boils down to this:

Too many greedy middle-men looking to make obscene profits
Too much greed on the part of goddamn stockholders
Too many really really stupid people conned by propaganda about FREEDOM! (USA FARK YEAH!)
Too many corrupt politicians in the pocket of lobbyists

Too many people not paying for their healthcare.
Lawyers successfully suing for excessive amounts.
Hospitals and doctors having to find some way to cover the costs.
Hospitals overcharging customers with insurance.

As a little followup to my own post, I think a lot of the problem is no clear competition among providers due to the inability of consumers to shop around in regards to price. Those that have insurance go where it is accepted, and those that don't really have no idea who is cheapest. Have you ever seen a comparison of providers based on cost? I havn't......

There is not much competition. Employers can choose from a handful of providers. Individuals are pretty much stuck with whatever their company chooses. If buying health insurance was like buying any other kind of insurance it might lower the cost a little. It would still be very expensive. People would get bigger paychecks but would have some serious sticker shock when they paid their health insurance bill.


Depends on your insurance. More expensive insurance gives you more choice. HMOs don't.

Obamacare is going to give you progressively less choice over time as the 'Cadillac' plans get taxed and become out of reach for most families.
2012-06-09 09:09:24 AM
1 votes:
My girlfriend broke her elbow, I drove her to hospital, she was seen immediately, had an operation, stayed in overnight and is currently undergoing physiotherapy, all on the NHS. How much would that have cost under the US system if she were underinsured or uninsured? What price do you put on peace of mind? Then again, we are dirty, evil socialists.
2012-06-09 09:04:36 AM
1 votes:

Darth_Lukecash: Grand_Moff_Joseph: How much do you want to bet that after SCOTUS follows their rightward tilt and strikes down HCA, that bankruptcy rules will be quietly changed so that medical debt joins student loans as "unable to discharge" in bankruptcy?

You realize Debtors prisons have started...

If corporations could get away with it, they would pay people very, very little.


When you figure out that as its budget mushrooms, the government becomes the biggest corporation, not the peoples instrument, you will begin to see the problem.

When people are arrested for contempt of court because of unpaid debts, its just one corporation acting on behalf of another.

Which is why a city took peoples houses on behalf of Pfizer in Kelo v. New London.

And why a hotel where drug arrests were made is being seized and sold, with some of the proceeds going to feds.

Govt, when it is given such powers, will act no differently from a corporation in fighting for its own interests.
2012-06-09 09:03:46 AM
1 votes:
I WORK for a major healthcare company and even my rates blow. How bad is that that your employer can't even give you a good rate. And an ugly trend seems to be that most companies are going toward deductible based systems. Sure that's awesome for people with chronic or expensive treatments but for twenty somethings in good health it is insanity. Why would we want to pay $80+ a month for the ability to still have to pay deductibles of like $50-70 per doctors visit?

Here's another CSB. I have mild depression that is worsening due to stress. I spent two hours and at least 30 calls to my local vendors looking for a psychiatrist to help prescribe something. I'm a stubborn guy, so I waited until it got its worst before admitting I had a problem. Trouble is, every single place I called either wasn't accepting new patients or didn't have an opening until freaking NOVEMBER. Yes, as in six months from today, NOVEMBER. It's not like I live in a rural area, I'm nearby to three major hospitals in a city with it's own pro football team. We're a pretty big place. I shudder to think how bad this situation is in less populated areas. So yea, the system is screwed. I can't see anyone, even as preventative for a degenerating condition. They'd rather I let it fester, and grow, and worsen, to the point of no return.

/CSB
2012-06-09 08:56:34 AM
1 votes:

NickelP: badhatharry: Day_Old_Dutchie: From outside of the US the problems with you healthcare system boils down to this:

Too many greedy middle-men looking to make obscene profits
Too much greed on the part of goddamn stockholders
Too many really really stupid people conned by propaganda about FREEDOM! (USA FARK YEAH!)
Too many corrupt politicians in the pocket of lobbyists

Too many people not paying for their healthcare.
Lawyers successfully suing for excessive amounts.
Hospitals and doctors having to find some way to cover the costs.
Hospitals overcharging customers with insurance.

As a little followup to my own post, I think a lot of the problem is no clear competition among providers due to the inability of consumers to shop around in regards to price. Those that have insurance go where it is accepted, and those that don't really have no idea who is cheapest. Have you ever seen a comparison of providers based on cost? I havn't......


There is not much competition. Employers can choose from a handful of providers. Individuals are pretty much stuck with whatever their company chooses. If buying health insurance was like buying any other kind of insurance it might lower the cost a little. It would still be very expensive. People would get bigger paychecks but would have some serious sticker shock when they paid their health insurance bill.
2012-06-09 08:55:26 AM
1 votes:

MayoSlather: This is one of the most judgemental posts I've read in a while with spectacularly ill conceived conclusions.


You want spectactularly ill-conceived, try New York's Medicaid program. More expensive than the next two state programs combined. Takes up almost half the state budget. Still does a shiatty job. Loaded with fraud. Doesn't even cover a million or so of the poor people it's supposed to cover.

As for judgmental, what...do we suddenly not have a problem with obesity? Smoking? Sexual stupidity? Excess in general?

Diabetes all by itself cost Medicare $45 billion three years ago.

And yet we have a gigantic agriculture subsidy program that pays big agribusiness to keep churning out processed crap food. We have a food stamp program that steers poor people to the processed crap food, and once they get good and fat and diabetic we have a Medicaid program to cut checks for providers to treat the diabetes.

This is so profoundly stupid, it can only be there by design.
2012-06-09 08:30:31 AM
1 votes:

badhatharry: Day_Old_Dutchie: From outside of the US the problems with you healthcare system boils down to this:

Too many greedy middle-men looking to make obscene profits
Too much greed on the part of goddamn stockholders
Too many really really stupid people conned by propaganda about FREEDOM! (USA FARK YEAH!)
Too many corrupt politicians in the pocket of lobbyists

Too many people not paying for their healthcare.
Lawyers successfully suing for excessive amounts.
Hospitals and doctors having to find some way to cover the costs.
Hospitals overcharging customers with insurance.


As a little followup to my own post, I think a lot of the problem is no clear competition among providers due to the inability of consumers to shop around in regards to price. Those that have insurance go where it is accepted, and those that don't really have no idea who is cheapest. Have you ever seen a comparison of providers based on cost? I havn't......
2012-06-09 08:18:08 AM
1 votes:

doglover: *drool*

I could live with that. Currently I've been working contract jobs which pay a lot less and have 0 bennes and just about everyone I know is in the same boat. (different country, but it's not exactly unheard of in the US)


That job doesn't exist in most states, and where it does you need a MA and several years of experience. Likely, to be qualified to teach something hard to find, like math or chemistry.
2012-06-09 08:14:49 AM
1 votes:
Health care in 'Merica sux anyway.
Article is full of Obvious Man quotes that are brought to you by Oblivious Boy.

The numbskull neo-cons are running this joint into the schitter so they can pander to the 1% and dance about and pronounce "I'm rich too, I'm rich just like you."

FYI for Neo-Cons. The 1% don't like you. They don't want you in their Kountry Klubs. They don't want your kids dating theirs, They don't want you living next door, they don't want anything to do with you except to have you vote for their benefit.
Don't be stupid. If you were Alice Walton and worth 21 BILLION, would you want your progeny dating some mongrel from the Great Unwashed?

Eat the Rich "It's only class warefare if we fight back"
2012-06-09 08:07:35 AM
1 votes:

BMFPitt: Don't you just hate it when employers only want to hire people for jobs that are actually related to the product or service they provide?


Not really.

What I do hate is working 8 hours a day, days a week, and only being paid for 29.5 of those hours because of the color of my skin.
2012-06-09 08:02:16 AM
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: relcec: listen raven, you are out of your depth. y

No I'm not out of my depth. I just happen to think insurance should have absolutely no say so in where someone goes to a doctor or a hospital, ever. You know, like in the rest of the world. Also, on the employer side, if you're not willing to take care of your employees, you shouldn't be running things.


Why should an employer be forced to pay for anything? If you don't like the pay and benefits, quit.

Depending on the outcome of the election and the SC case, you'll see many smaller employers dump their health care plans and perhaps offering employees a stipend to go get their own insurance on the exchanges that wil be set up.

And it goes without saying that limiting restrictions on care will increase medical costs and therefore insurance premiums.
2012-06-09 07:55:21 AM
1 votes:
i have a catastrophic insurance plan at the moment, costs me just €60 per YEAR

and its a private plan

gosh i'm going to miss Europe :(
2012-06-09 07:53:34 AM
1 votes:

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: If Boomers would start dieing or retiring, I'd be more than happy to get a better job and buy health insurance.


Try learning to spell, also. Just a suggestion.
2012-06-09 07:34:28 AM
1 votes:

batcookie: fark'emfeed'emfish: batcookie: uttertosh: batcookie: uttertosh: Here's a real head-scratcha: Whatever happened to the notion that we should all be allowed access to healthcare, regardless of social status? Is that not some anciently established human right in the '1st' world?

It's always been a relatively fringe belief, sadly. Greed and selfishness are much more universal in America

FTFY

Nope. Lack of acknowledgement that the problem is human corporate nature, no matter what the cultural affiliation, is also part of the problem. Our nature is something to be overcome by rationality. Unfortunately, for many humans, globablly speaking, they just don't care to overcome it.

had to do it

Yes, but corporations are made up of... say it with me now... PEOPLE.


PEOPLE... who are compartmentalized to the point that the bigger picture isn't recognizable, or who would piss in the wind by expressing their humanity
2012-06-09 07:28:48 AM
1 votes:

Honest Bender:

Moral of the story: Get a big boy job and you wont need to worry about insurance.


Let them eat cake.
2012-06-09 07:20:43 AM
1 votes:

Well Armed Sheep: Yeah, 28, uninsured, mountains of medical debt from emergency surgeries when I was 18. I haven't ever really been able to make enough to pay it off. I had (what was sold as) medical insurance for a few years, through work (30 bucks from me, 30 from my employer a month.) But it turned out to be a scam. Tried to get insurance at a recent job and my portion was 75 a paycheck. Oh, well. I have had a sore on my leg for five years that won't go away, but I can't afford to do anything about it beyond when I went to a clinic and the doctor looked at it for two seconds before telling me to put some antibiotic cream on it, and if that doesn't work try an antifungal. Arseface then sent me a bill that was as huge as you'd expect for not fixing my problem.


I've seen the 1%ers here who have medical degress diss on the 99%ers for daring to go homeopathic or WebMD to try to resolve their issues, instead of always going to a hospital or urgent care (since adequate private practice is out of the question for the uninsured and underinsured). I've also been the 'docs don't know what the fk they're doing' route, and wondered if it would have been better to save money and time out of my day not bothering to go at all. Meanwhile, go to several boards dedicated to particular symptoms, and read over and over again about how doctors dismiss patient concerns, don't listen, overmedicate, tell patients the equivalent of 'because I said so' on top of 'it's nothing to worry about' when patients ask what's happening, and basically use patients as guinea pigs by understating risks.

If given a choice between spending $X, and not having a problem fixed, and spending no money and not having a problem fixed............I'm going with spending no money.
2012-06-09 07:10:12 AM
1 votes:

Honest Bender: I guess I'm pretty lucky:

Parent's health insurance --> Cheap college insurance --> work health plan

My work health plan doesn't come out of my pay check. Employer deposits money in my HSA account. Annual contributions = annual deductible. I've never been "out of pocket."

Moral of the story: Get a big boy job and you wont need to worry about insurance.


You may not have noticed, but there aren't enough big boy jobs to go around any more. All of them are filled, except certain tech ones, which don't go to Americans, because they want big boy pay. FFS, lawyers are getting offered $10,000 a year to start.
2012-06-09 06:57:15 AM
1 votes:

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: If Boomers would start dieing or retiring, I'd be more than happy to get a better job and buy health insurance.


Boomers have to keep working to support their useless kids who don't have a job.
2012-06-09 06:52:40 AM
1 votes:

AlteredChemical: There's absolutely no way in hell this can end well


relcec: that is why healthcare *reform* bill will very soon force these very people to buy full priced insurance (cheap catastrophic insurance which is basically all a young person really needs is being prohibited in the future, the only choice will be full cost insurance), because they will be made to take the loss so that the private insurance industry can reap windfall profits, and in turn will be willing to insure less profitable patients.


Nothing ends well with catastrophic/HSA "coverage".

The extra-high deductible farks people over, and wiping out and a HSA balance makes things worse after it is wiped out. In addition, such an inferior plan skews things towards the cheaper solution versus the medically correct decision.



WhyteRaven74: How about mandating all employers above a certain size provide top shelf insurance, actual insurance not PPO or HMO crap, with employees picking up no more than 5% of the premium?


As long as it is neither HSA nor Catastrophic, and it has a anti-structuring provision(see banking regulations) that prevents the employer from just hiring N-1 employees to stay under the limit.

That said, PPACA needs to have its loopholes closed if it even has a chance to work, such as:

• Grouping one set of employees in one company while grouping another set in another company to dodge comparison rules.
• The insufficient penalty for not insuring employees/etc.
• Allowing employers to use contractors/temps/etc. to dodge the costs.

There are probably more that I've not thought of, but the law is not likely to work.



/PPACA is just a scapegoat for businesses to not hire or as an example of regulatory "uncertainty"
//It may not even be intended to work as a conduit for insurance/coverage
///HSA's need to die a very nasty, painful and brutish death
2012-06-09 06:39:12 AM
1 votes:
I have a friend that got an extra 11k in salary for not taking the company's insurance.

Which seems very irrational on their part, since he was able to buy an individual plan for less than half of that.

If you're healthy and young, this makes sense. The first time I went to a doctor after high school was when I was 28 and I needed surgery. And I still probably just broke even for all of those early 20s premiums. Company insurance generally forces you to subsidize the older workers.
2012-06-09 06:26:42 AM
1 votes:

kmmontandon: Lando Lincoln: Good thing we won't have an individual mandate to force these freedom-loving kids to buy health insurance.


That's exactly right, we don't, not for two more years.

We do have a law that allows anyone up to the age of 26 to remain on their parent's insurance, of course, which I'm sure you will now express support for.


That works great if your parents have a policy that will cover you. But if your parents have blue-collar jobs with no benefits, then the whole family is screwed.
2012-06-09 06:25:52 AM
1 votes:

relcec: WhyteRaven74: relcec: , at the very least it is serving the function of negotiating a fairly significant discount for you from the provider.

That does people soooo much good when the insurance refuses to actually cover claims. It should be illegal for any medical insurance to refuse to cover any claim, from any doctor or hospital, period. No "Well it wasn't life threatening so we're not covering your ER visit" crap, no pre-approvals, no referrals, none of it. As it stands now insurance companies are practicing medicine by proxy and that can not be tolerated.

if you knew more about healthcare you wouldn't be pissing on the discounts.

they are often massive, and depending on whether it is a for profit or community/catholic hospital you are unlucky enough to run up your $57k bill in, they will try their damnedest to get you to pay the full amount if you don;t have insurance.

just staying 4 days in a hospital could make all that premium paying for the last 10 years worth it just for the discount that gets lopped off the top, never mind if the insurance never pays a dime.

discount rates for big insurance companies as a percentage of total charges can range anywhere from 60% to 76%. that means even if the you insurance doesn't pay one red cent, on a hospital stay with $50k total charges, the insurance company probably has negotiated a rate with the provider to lop anywhere from $30k to $38k off the bill before you even look at it.


So you're defending discounts or contract rates, or are you just explaining them? They are basically collusion and drive up healthcare costs. But the free market is great and all...damn near infallible.
2012-06-09 06:21:19 AM
1 votes:

Smeggy Smurf: Fark that I want no mandates and the option to purchase across state lines. The free market will provide better options than a one size fits all ass raping. The government can't even run a goddamned whorehouse let alone provide decent health care.


You really think the free market will work when the choice is quite literally "Purchase our product or die?"
2012-06-09 06:16:02 AM
1 votes:

No_Good_Name: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: If Boomers would start dieing or retiring, I'd be more than happy to get a better job and buy health insurance.

I'm 48 with a family to support with my health insurance. How would my dieing or retiring help the situation? Don't make this a generational war. Make this about getting affordable healthcare for all generations.


The Boomers already made it a generational war when they fought tooth and nail to screw over everyone younger than they are, while making sure they still get theirs.
2012-06-09 06:11:56 AM
1 votes:

Grand_Moff_Joseph: How much do you want to bet that after SCOTUS follows their rightward tilt and strikes down HCA, that bankruptcy rules will be quietly changed so that medical debt joins student loans as "unable to discharge" in bankruptcy?


Let them.

When enough people default on uncollectable loans and medical debts that have judgments against them, and people have property liens against property they were never going to own in the first place, and hospitals and insurance companies follow banks in the big swirl down the toilet--then MAYBE we'll see some kind of reform.

I doubt it, but the carnage will be fun to watch.
2012-06-09 06:03:23 AM
1 votes:

No_Good_Name: Don't make this a generational war. Make this about getting affordable healthcare for all generations.


Actually we have to be damn careful in Australia with all our social safety nets - the big push is to remove them for future applicants but leave them grandfathered for current benificiaries.

Ie, the Boomers are trying to roll up the benefits behind them for new users but keep them for themselves into the future.

It's all done in the name of keeping the "grey vote" of baby boomers who are over represented on the ballot generation wise.
2012-06-09 05:57:04 AM
1 votes:

Tumunga: meh.

I didn't have health insurance until I got married, and had kids. Didn't need it. Wasn't going to pay for it. If something bad happened, all I needed to do was go to Wishard and tell them I was broke.

That's called free medical care. Shove that up your libtard, single payer bullshiat sphincters.


you ignorant farking symptom
2012-06-09 05:45:30 AM
1 votes:

batcookie: uttertosh: Here's a real head-scratcha: Whatever happened to the notion that we should all be allowed access to healthcare, regardless of social status? Is that not some anciently established human right in the '1st' world?

It's always been a relatively fringe belief, sadly. Greed and selfishness are much more universal in America


FTFY
2012-06-09 05:32:34 AM
1 votes:
I think all this screwing over the middle, younger class by the government is their way of trying to keep people reproducing to keep the population level up. I'm 30 and it seems like the only way I will ever be able to live comfortably is to get married to someone else working full time so combined we have a decent living. Then when married, most people will reproduce more little taxpayers.
2012-06-09 05:18:08 AM
1 votes:
I have a job with health insurance and with a 35 dollar co-pay, some of my meds are to gotdamn high as well. Stopped taking alot of my meds, just to keep gas in my car so I can make it to work and school.

/is 31
//last visit to the doctors was to have Ulnar Nerve Transposition Surgery
///two years ago
2012-06-09 05:12:33 AM
1 votes:

relcec: WhyteRaven74: tinfoil-hat maggie: insurance companies are evil and get out of paying anyway they can.

I'm actually surprised no one has gone after one or a few on bad faith grounds. They're taking money then trying to weasel out of paying claims, basically they're selling something they have no intention of making good on if they can help it. Which isn't exactly proper.


this is a bit dated, but if you are interested it will explain the legal landscape a bit.

http://www.law.uh.edu/healthlaw/perspectives/HealthPolicy/070404revi se derisa.pdf


I remember that when it first came out. Pissed me off then and well still does.
/You have right's citizen until the point we say you don't
//Sad
2012-06-09 05:12:02 AM
1 votes:

strangeluck: I have health insurance with my current job, but it's totally worthless, and I keep seriously thinking of dropping it. It covers so little, like seriously will barely cover one doctor's visit for the entire year, and even then I get an overage bill between $50-$100. But as one of my co-workers tells me, it may not cover anything, but it gets you in the door, while the people without insurance are stuck in the lobby waiting longer.

I don't know if that's really true about them waiting longer.

/American healthcare sucks.
//Trying to find that better job with better insurance.
///Slashies are strange.


I guess it depends on what lobby you're talking about, but in my experience for non-ER things (I assume, I have never been to the ER), pretty much everyone is not only happy to have you pay directly but prefers it because they don't have to deal with the insurance companies or do so much paperwork. It's only if they think you somehow can't afford it and are planning on just not paying them that want insurance. If anything, filling out all the insurance crap takes much longer. AND on top of that, depending on the place, they'll charge you less if you pay out of pocket, depending on how much time they figure they'll have to spend wrangling the insurance companies. Just as an experiment, try asking the next time you need something done how much it would be if you paid out of pocket.
2012-06-09 05:09:44 AM
1 votes:

relcec: http://www.law.uh.edu/healthlaw/perspectives/HealthPolicy/070404revi se derisa.pdf


I'm familiar with ERISA, however arguing bad faith wouldn't necessitate arguing injury or death due to the insurance refusing to cover something. The simple run around people get, the inability to clearly see what will and won't be covered, that it seems to change from plan to plan offered by the same insurer etc. That doesn't even get into ERISA issues. It gets into the integrity of the actual policies issued.
2012-06-09 05:07:41 AM
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: relcec: listen raven, you are out of your depth. y

No I'm not out of my depth. I just happen to think insurance should have absolutely no say so in where someone goes to a doctor or a hospital, ever. You know, like in the rest of the world. Also, on the employer side, if you're not willing to take care of your employees, you shouldn't be running things.


yes you are out of your depth. you laughed at the massive impact of discounts and then said something about having to go to the hospital to even be eligible for them (wtf) and then proposed a solution that solves the structural problem not one bit. just stick to explaining your personal feelings. don't try to go pontificating about what the current state of the industry actually works because you don't have the foggiest.
2012-06-09 04:55:06 AM
1 votes:

SweetDickens: WhyteRaven74 I'm actually surprised no one has gone after one or a few on bad faith grounds. They're taking money then trying to weasel out of paying claims, basically they're selling something they have no intention of making good on if they can help it. Which isn't exactly proper.

Fo reals right? But guess who is in the pockets of the insurance companies........pro tip hint.........it starts at the state legislative level and works its way up.......You will never get health care insurance to provide for health care as they "advert" They do not give a shiat and more importantly have paid enough people off that they do not have to. Why do you think that congress and the senate pay a fraction of what you would have to for SUPERIOR health care coverage? F*ckers have been bought off. Time for the revolution....or meh.....

Oh look...somebody is smoking weed.........lets bust them........


this bears repeating. revolution time.
2012-06-09 04:51:52 AM
1 votes:
I just turned 25. I haven't had health care since I graduated college (Engineering). I'm looking for a good job right now, and I'm afraid I won't be able to ask for health insurance in this economy.
2012-06-09 04:46:27 AM
1 votes:

LadyMech: I had a "mild" heart attack in Feb. and I'm unisured, so I'm really getting a kick out of this thread. Well, sort of, I'm in my 30's so I guess I don't count. Yay for undiagnosed diabetes. They really get you coming and going-I now order farkin' Plavix from Canada due to it being $200 a month in the US.

So far down the hole that I might as join the mole men.


So sorry, that's gotta suck, but yea the hospital and prescription drug cost have gone insane in this country.
2012-06-09 04:42:02 AM
1 votes:

RayD8: Australian, so Medicare levy covers my ass.
Taxes, what are they good for?


Plus the public baseline being good keeps the private health insurers honest as well.

Just about to ding 4 weeks in a private hospital and it hasn't cost a cent over my monthly premium. None of this "this is covered, this isn't, squirm out of paying" shiat.

Private hospital saw my member card, I sign a weekly form and that is that. End of story.
2012-06-09 04:39:18 AM
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: relcec: , at the very least it is serving the function of negotiating a fairly significant discount for you from the provider.

That does people soooo much good when the insurance refuses to actually cover claims. It should be illegal for any medical insurance to refuse to cover any claim, from any doctor or hospital, period. No "Well it wasn't life threatening so we're not covering your ER visit" crap, no pre-approvals, no referrals, none of it. As it stands now insurance companies are practicing medicine by proxy and that can not be tolerated.


Very true, insurance companies are evil and get out of paying anyway they can.
2012-06-09 04:33:02 AM
1 votes:

some_beer_drinker: my grandfather bought a house for 3000, my dad for 30k, i dont have 300k. i dont own a car, or ever expect to have the lifestyle enjoyed by my previous generation. fark it, i just want to watch the world burn.


Then do us a favor, go live in a cave.
2012-06-09 04:32:19 AM
1 votes:

ExperianScaresCthulhu: go the contract worker route (or the fake franchisee route).


Oh no, word it so everyone, even contract employees are covered. And notice I mentioned employers above a certain size, so mom and pops aren't involved. Though it wouldn't take much to make things so their employees could get health coverage too.
2012-06-09 04:25:05 AM
1 votes:
Fark insurance.

Every citizen should get free healthcare. Doctors should be paid like (possibly by) the military.

Proof of citizenship and you get free healthcare. Then for an added bonus, elective surgery subjects get a few grand extra in their accounts for trying out some experimental procedures to add more HGH and extra livers and such. And for every brainwashing session you sit through, a free case of craft beer. And then we give them the bolters and power armor ..

3.bp.blogspot.com
2012-06-09 04:14:12 AM
1 votes:
I have health insurance with my current job, but it's totally worthless, and I keep seriously thinking of dropping it. It covers so little, like seriously will barely cover one doctor's visit for the entire year, and even then I get an overage bill between $50-$100. But as one of my co-workers tells me, it may not cover anything, but it gets you in the door, while the people without insurance are stuck in the lobby waiting longer.

I don't know if that's really true about them waiting longer.

/American healthcare sucks.
//Trying to find that better job with better insurance.
///Slashies are strange.
2012-06-09 04:07:59 AM
1 votes:

Tumunga: That's called free medical care.


If everyone obtains "free medical care," then what?
2012-06-09 04:06:52 AM
1 votes:
As it happens, I was well covered (health-wise) from the age of 20 to 28.

shiat wages but good bennys.

Started my own company in 98 and went eleven years without buying health insurance and never needing it either (Praise Him!).

A savings of around $66,000 over that time.

I have catastrophic coverage now, and would have to be pretty much at death's door to have my deductibles climb to those heights over a given decade, so I'm calling it a win at this point.
2012-06-09 03:54:03 AM
1 votes:

farkityfarker: As a Canadian who recently broke his wrist and had it fixed for free as opposed to the $20K I would have paid as an American, I'm getting a kick out of this...


Bullshiat man... We all know that it takes 5 years for you Canadians to actually SEE a doctor. Because, that's what Republicans say. You know - the ones that still believe the Bible is real.
2012-06-09 03:53:10 AM
1 votes:

farkityfarker: As a Canadian who recently broke his wrist and had it fixed for free as opposed to the $20K I would have paid as an American, I'm getting a kick out of this...


Nothing is free. You paid for it in other ways, and other people helped you pay for it. Is there a pie chart comparing taxes for Canadians and Americans versus government spending for Canadians versus Americans?
2012-06-09 03:27:08 AM
1 votes:

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: If Boomers would start dieing or retiring, I'd be more than happy to get a better job and buy health insurance.


This.
2012-06-09 02:30:32 AM
1 votes:
I did it.
2012-06-08 11:59:55 PM
1 votes:
Good thing we won't have an individual mandate to force these freedom-loving kids to buy health insurance. This will never come back to bite them in the ass, or the people that will eventually have to pay for their medical treatment when they will eventually need it.
 
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