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(The Newspaper)   If police tow your car after an accident and never give it back, the city does not owe you $500 billion   (thenewspaper.com) divider line 66
    More: PSA, tow  
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7494 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jun 2012 at 1:47 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-06-08 11:40:40 AM  
Since I am pretty sure it is illegal for the city government to tow your car and then sell it while you are incapacitated in the freakin' hospital, it sounds like this woman either brought the case to court herself or hired the dumbest lawyer available.

If it IS legal for a city to do that then the terrorists won a lot longer ago than we realized.
 
2012-06-08 11:57:52 AM  
What the f... HUH?

"The mere fact that plaintiff had poor experiences with the towing of a vehicle she previously owned is not enough for the court to reasonably conclude that the city of Columbus has adopted an implicit custom or policy that encourages its employees to violate plaintiff's federal rights,"
 
2012-06-08 11:59:34 AM  
By the way, her lawyer is a farking idiot if he went with the 4th amendment instead of the 5th. The seizure was totally legal. Not giving the car back isn't.
 
2012-06-08 01:49:12 PM  
Best. Domain name. Ever.

"So which newspaper do you work for?"

"THE newspaper"
 
2012-06-08 01:49:26 PM  
I'm willing to negotiate that down to a cool 50 million. I can be happy with that.
 
2012-06-08 01:51:54 PM  
"Ok. You want to give me zero. I want 500 billion. Will compromise and split the difference. That's fair isn't it?"
 
2012-06-08 01:54:27 PM  
Probably a vagrant slept in the car. Or maybe just used it as a toilet and moved on.
 
2012-06-08 01:54:43 PM  
So the city STOLE the car from her, and the courts sided with the crooks?

I'm shocked.
 
2012-06-08 01:54:49 PM  
She has very sharp negotiation skills. She goes high, the counter offer is low, and you meet somewhere in the middle. Make it an even 250 billion and everyone is happy.
 
2012-06-08 01:55:20 PM  
Obviously tried arguing the case herself. Which is unfortunate because the police shouldn't be able to sell an accident victim's car while she's in the hospital.
 
2012-06-08 01:56:52 PM  

Winktologist: Since I am pretty sure it is illegal for the city government to tow your car and then sell it while you are incapacitated in the freakin' hospital, it sounds like this woman either brought the case to court herself or hired the dumbest lawyer available.

If it IS legal for a city to do that then the terrorists won a lot longer ago than we realized.


It's totally legal, go to any city impound lot and you'll see a notice saying if your vehicle is left there for x amount of days it is considered abandoned and will be sold.

I'm guessing she missed that number of days.

Doesn't sound like she tried to reach out until after the car was sold. I know after my friend's wreck he didn't have the money to fix the car but since he had a body shop lined up they didn't sell his car. All he needed was a quote from the body shop and they happily kept the car in the lot for a "storage fee".
 
2012-06-08 02:02:44 PM  
what horseshiat. if that was a BMW owned by a city council member you know it would be waiting for him in his driveway while he mended in the hospital.

it's as if people win prizes for treating others poorly.
 
2012-06-08 02:04:09 PM  

DoBeDoBeDo: Winktologist: Since I am pretty sure it is illegal for the city government to tow your car and then sell it while you are incapacitated in the freakin' hospital, it sounds like this woman either brought the case to court herself or hired the dumbest lawyer available.

If it IS legal for a city to do that then the terrorists won a lot longer ago than we realized.

It's totally legal, go to any city impound lot and you'll see a notice saying if your vehicle is left there for x amount of days it is considered abandoned and will be sold.

I'm guessing she missed that number of days.

Doesn't sound like she tried to reach out until after the car was sold. I know after my friend's wreck he didn't have the money to fix the car but since he had a body shop lined up they didn't sell his car. All he needed was a quote from the body shop and they happily kept the car in the lot for a "storage fee".


She was in the hospital and nobody notified her within x amount of days.
 
2012-06-08 02:04:26 PM  
Good lord, I hope I didn't go to law school with the lawyer who have her those constitutional arguments.
 
2012-06-08 02:05:13 PM  

master_dman: So the city STOLE the car from her, and the courts sided with the crooks?

I'm shocked.


Or you could try reading the article, pausing for a thoughtful moment of reflection, and realizing that the case she presented the court was idiotic independent of any questions regarding the city's behavior in relation to the taking and sale of the car.

You can't just walk in and start citing constitutional amendments. Even if you have a valid claim in a general sense you're still going to lose the case if your argument for it is complete nonsense.
 
2012-06-08 02:08:45 PM  
Neither does the federal government if the FBI wreck your Ferrari while taking it for a joy ride.

Link

/unfrozen caveman lawyer facepalms
 
2012-06-08 02:08:56 PM  

master_dman: So the city STOLE the car from her, and the courts sided with the crooks?

I'm shocked.


You don't expect the judge to give up those tickets to the annual commissioner's gala lightly, now do you?
 
2012-06-08 02:09:20 PM  

EmmaLou: Good lord, I hope I didn't go to law school with the lawyer who have her those constitutional arguments.


He was probably paying more attention in English Comp.
 
2012-06-08 02:12:24 PM  

thisisyourbrainonFark: Probably a vagrant slept in the car. Or maybe just used it as a toilet and moved on.


Dirty Mike and the boys probably had a Soup Kitchen in there too.
 
2012-06-08 02:12:27 PM  
Twitter POTUS. Have them fired
 
2012-06-08 02:13:14 PM  

Winktologist: Since I am pretty sure it is illegal for the city government to tow your car and then sell it while you are incapacitated in the freakin' hospital, it sounds like this woman either brought the case to court herself or hired the dumbest lawyer available.

If it IS legal for a city to do that then the terrorists won a lot longer ago than we realized.


I've worked as a tow truck driver. It is legal. And it is shiatty. Towing is a racket because municipalities and insurance companies don't want to have to pony up the dollars to pay for impounds in unfortunate circumstances. You pay for all other kinds of vehicle accidents, why not this?

In California, towing companies in a given city have to be within 5% of each other on price, by the state. So every year everyone basically has a tacit agreement that they will increase the rate by about $5. Once we get your car back to the lot, it is $200. Then for every 24 hour period that it sits there there is an additional $50 lot fee. If three days goes by without someone coming in to claim the vehicle, a lien is put against it and the paperwork is started to take ownership after a month passes. If you come to get it at that point you will also have to pay the lien.

Some cases I had little sympathy for: DUIs have to leave their vehicle in the lot for a month. If you get a DUI, it IS going to cost you about $2000 just to get your car back from the towing company, in addition to the fees you have to pay to the government.

Other cases aren't so easy to be carefree about: People park on the street for too long while on vacation and the city or a neighbor requests that their vehicle be removed. Students would go home for the summer and come back to find that their car has been towed and already sold, and the lien notice is sitting in their mailbox. It's one of those things that leaves people feeling utterly farked by the system - that sort of "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" feeling.
 
2012-06-08 02:14:39 PM  

EmmaLou: Good lord, I hope I didn't go to law school with the lawyer who have her those constitutional arguments.


kingoomieiii: By the way, her lawyer is a farking idiot if he went with the 4th amendment instead of the 5th. The seizure was totally legal. Not giving the car back isn't.


This is basically what happens when the big firms collapse now that the legal bubble has popped: Useless idiots with a law degree chasing every dollar, lie cheat and steal to pay off insane tuition loans, promising low upfront fees or contingency and taking every crap case because it's all they can get. And the people get suckered in with a little slick talking.

/Meets lawyers in the course of working, the 80% rule is more like the 95% rule with the glut of them.
 
2012-06-08 02:15:05 PM  

Moosecakes: Obviously tried arguing the case herself. Which is unfortunate because the police shouldn't be able to sell an accident victim's car while she's in the hospital.


yes, but should she have gone to a lawyer (who would have probably been incompetent anyway), who would have charged her $50,000 to go to trial over a car that probably wasn't even worth $10,000?

And consider that (as stupid as she sounds), she probably didn't have enough money to give a lawyer his retainer fee in the first place?

-Justice only for those with big wallets.
 
2012-06-08 02:15:10 PM  
So she was in an accident
She went to the hospital
The cops and tow truck company moved the vehicle and impounded it
She went to the impound lot a month after it was impounded and found her car sold/gone.
The only question is this: Is she hot?
Definitely crazy.

Here's a petition by a lady with the same name against Playboy(?), the stock market and the international space statioin

http://www.change.org/petitions/us-government-wall-street-financial-f i rms-and-corporations-stop-the-crimes-and-abuse-against-michelle-mathis
 
2012-06-08 02:19:26 PM  

ZipSplat: Some cases I had little sympathy for: DUIs have to leave their vehicle in the lot for a month. If you get a DUI, it IS going to cost you about $2000 just to get your car back from the towing company, in addition to the fees you have to pay to the government.

Other cases aren't so easy to be carefree about: People park on the street for too long while on vacation and the city or a neighbor requests that their vehicle be removed. Students would go home for the summer and come back to find that their car has been towed and already sold, and the lien notice is sitting in their mailbox. It's one of those things that leaves people feeling utterly farked by the system - that sort of "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" feeling.


And that's not even getting into the predatory towing companies that illegally tow and give kickbacks to the city council. California seems to keep a pretty tight leash on them, but it seems to be extremely common in the midwest and northwest for a company to charge people parking fees, with signs and all, and then immediately tow them once the event starts, with everyone in power just shrugging their shoulders.
 
2012-06-08 02:25:43 PM  

thisisyourbrainonFark

Probably a vagrant slept in the car. Or maybe just used it as a toilet and moved on.


Dirty Mike and the Boys payed it a visit?
 
2012-06-08 02:25:51 PM  
So the cops stole her car and sold it to someone else?

Can she make an insurance claim?
 
2012-06-08 02:29:54 PM  
Unless of course you are the RIAA or MPAA, in which case you owe them $800 trillion.
 
2012-06-08 02:30:07 PM  
ZipSplat


Smartest
Funniest

2012-06-08 02:13:14 PM

Winktologist: Since I am pretty sure it is illegal for the city government to tow your car and then sell it while you are incapacitated in the freakin' hospital, it sounds like this woman either brought the case to court herself or hired the dumbest lawyer available.

If it IS legal for a city to do that then the terrorists won a lot longer ago than we realized.

I've worked as a tow truck driver. It is legal. And it is shiatty. Towing is a racket because municipalities and insurance companies don't want to have to pony up the dollars to pay for impounds in unfortunate circumstances. You pay for all other kinds of vehicle accidents, why not this?

In California, towing companies in a given city have to be within 5% of each other on price, by the state. So every year everyone basically has a tacit agreement that they will increase the rate by about $5. Once we get your car back to the lot, it is $200. Then for every 24 hour period that it sits there there is an additional $50 lot fee. If three days goes by without someone coming in to claim the vehicle, a lien is put against it and the paperwork is started to take ownership after a month passes. If you come to get it at that point you will also have to pay the lien.

Some cases I had little sympathy for: DUIs have to leave their vehicle in the lot for a month. If you get a DUI, it IS going to cost you about $2000 just to get your car back from the towing company, in addition to the fees you have to pay to the government.

Other cases aren't so easy to be carefree about: People park on the street for too long while on vacation and the city or a neighbor requests that their vehicle be removed. Students would go home for the summer and come back to find that their car has been towed and already sold, and the lien notice is sitting in their mailbox. It's one of those things that leaves people feeling utterly farked by the system - that sort of "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" feeling.


This is why I have AAA. I had an accident years ago(95) and specifically asked a cop to call a AAA authorized towing company. He called his friend instead. They tried to get me for all the towing and storage fees. I had to pay it to get my car back but AAA gave me every cent back. AND the cop got a reprimand.
 
2012-06-08 02:31:04 PM  
Splinshints
Or you could try reading the article, pausing for a thoughtful moment of reflection, and

t2.gstatic.com
 
2012-06-08 02:32:15 PM  
NUTBAG ALERT --- NUTBAG ALERT

I just found her twitter feed and holy mackerel. There are only 15 tweets, but there is enough crazy there for a bunch of fark threads.

Link
 
2012-06-08 02:34:51 PM  

foxyshadis: And that's not even getting into the predatory towing companies that illegally tow and give kickbacks to the city council. California seems to keep a pretty tight leash on them, but it seems to be extremely common in the midwest and northwest for a company to charge people parking fees, with signs and all, and then immediately tow them once the event starts, with everyone in power just shrugging their shoulders.


On most things the company I worked for was just, but like a lot of things in California doing it "by the book" is ridiculously cumbersome. For private property impounds (you park in a private lot without permission) the law states that the vehicle has to be on site for at least an hour before it can be towed. So, technically, in California you get an hour of free parking on anyone's property.

Business owners don't like that, and for a towman it's just unrealistic to keep tabs on how long a vehicle sits, so we would just take it. The property owner is the one that is supposed to vouch that it's sat there for an hour, not us. If you bring it up at the office and can somehow prove that your vehicle wasn't there for at least an hour, we would probably release it to you and waive the fees. But that never happened.

There are some little things as well. We would have contracts with different businesses (mainly apartment complexes) to patrol their fire lanes. If you're on-call you can drive one of the tow trucks around and check to see if anyone is parked in a fire lane. We got about 30% commission on the vehicle (30% of $250) if it got back to the lot, but the drop fee (if they run out and stop you) is only $95. I would rather have my $70 than $30. So it was common practice if we're already rigged up to just ignore anyone yelling "HEY STOP!" and keep moving.

The plausible deniability line is realistic: people fark with tow truck drivers, especially in student apartment buildings. EVERYONE is a comedian. "Hey, that's my car! JUST KIDDING LOL." So until someone is within about ten feet of us claiming the vehicle before we're rigged up and ready to move, we just assumed that they're not the driver, or pretend we didn't hear them.

Don't bother yelling from the balcony. Tow truck driver don't care. And you better have your wallet on you, because tow truck driver don't wait.

//And if you smell like alcohol, or your license is expired, they'rre not allowed to release it to you anyway. So don't smell like alcohol. Or look high.
 
2012-06-08 02:36:07 PM  
No Dr. Evil reference? I am dissapoint.
 
2012-06-08 02:42:54 PM  

Leeds: NUTBAG ALERT --- NUTBAG ALERT

I just found her twitter feed and holy mackerel. There are only 15 tweets, but there is enough crazy there for a bunch of fark threads.

Link


The shiatty thing about being crazy is that crazy people usually don't have family or friends looking after them. There is nobody to go get her car out of impound while she is hospitalized. People who are visibly mentally impaired were about the only people my boss would cut breaks to.

1) We know they'll probably be repeat customers.
2) They probably live in it.
3) You don't need crazy enemies.
4) They don't possess agency like most people.
5) Their cars are usually really, really shiatty and full of gross things if we take ownership of it. They have no resale value because they're usually trashed and poorly maintained. I still have pictures of some of the things we would pull out of impounds after the change of ownership paperwork was greened. Why would someone maintain a well ordered series of one-quart milk jugs containing their urine in the trunk? Because they're farking crazy, that's why.
 
2012-06-08 02:43:05 PM  
Michelle Mathis @america_Xposed
Ohio has kept family hostage in human trafficking that wall street has as assets in investments.America list them as toxic assests in stock.




[WTFAMIREADING.jpg]
 
2012-06-08 02:46:01 PM  
How does this not violate the fifth amendment. We have rights to our property
 
2012-06-08 02:46:57 PM  

Warlordtrooper: How does this not violate the fifth amendment. We have rights to our property


It probably does, but crazy lady never made a 5th amendment claim, IIRC. She made 4th and 14th claims. Illegal seizure and violation of due process.
 
2012-06-08 02:47:48 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Warlordtrooper: How does this not violate the fifth amendment. We have rights to our property

It probably does, but crazy lady never made a 5th amendment claim, IIRC. She made 4th and 14th claims. Illegal seizure and violation of due process.


Oh, and a 9th amendment claim, violation of inalienable rights.
 
2012-06-08 02:51:22 PM  

kingoomieiii: By the way, her lawyer is a farking idiot if he went with the 4th amendment instead of the 5th. The seizure was totally legal. Not giving the car back isn't.


The 5th Amendment has pretty much been rendered meaningless with Federal drug, tax laws and environmental laws along with everybody's favorite liberal court ruling:Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469
 
2012-06-08 02:53:27 PM  

Warlordtrooper: How does this not violate the fifth amendment. We have rights to our property


Because if something you own is not in your control on land you do not own, the state or a private property owner has to clear it away. It can't just sit there. And it costs money to tow things away and hold on to them for you. A reasonable amount of time is set for you to retrieve your property, and a fee for the retrieval and the amount of time it was held secured is applied.

Usually cities don't hold on to them, private companies do it under a city contract. If you don't pick up the vehicle in a reasonable amount of time, or communicate an intent to pick it up, it has become a liability to them. So state law empowers them to take ownership of the property so they can deal with it.

The exceptions that arise are the shiatty part, which is why I think that insurance companies should protect against stuff like this. If someone is in an accident that should be part of the whole issue, the insurance company should safeguard your vehicle while you convalesce.
 
2012-06-08 02:59:14 PM  

ZipSplat: Leeds: NUTBAG ALERT --- NUTBAG ALERT

I just found her twitter feed and holy mackerel. There are only 15 tweets, but there is enough crazy there for a bunch of fark threads.

Link

The shiatty thing about being crazy is that crazy people usually don't have family or friends looking after them. There is nobody to go get her car out of impound while she is hospitalized. People who are visibly mentally impaired were about the only people my boss would cut breaks to.

1) We know they'll probably be repeat customers.
2) They probably live in it.
3) You don't need crazy enemies.
4) They don't possess agency like most people.
5) Their cars are usually really, really shiatty and full of gross things if we take ownership of it. They have no resale value because they're usually trashed and poorly maintained. I still have pictures of some of the things we would pull out of impounds after the change of ownership paperwork was greened. Why would someone maintain a well ordered series of one-quart milk jugs containing their urine in the trunk? Because they're farking crazy, that's why.


That must have been fun to find after a month in the sun.

My only experience with a tow I didn't call was in Hollywood (where some curbs have 4-5 signs listing different hours you can and can't park and how long) when I parked a half hour before valet parking only started. Whoops. Ate a big bag of Read Harder, Son with that one.
 
2012-06-08 03:03:27 PM  
The only government more crooked than a national government is a local government.
 
2012-06-08 03:12:30 PM  
If you dig a little further, you'll find that she also believes that Jay-Z and P. Diddy were behind the seizure of her car. A human trafficking ring also comes into play.

This may give you some indication of the logic of the complaint.
 
2012-06-08 03:26:43 PM  

ZipSplat: Winktologist: Since I am pretty sure it is illegal for the city government to tow your car and then sell it while you are incapacitated in the freakin' hospital, it sounds like this woman either brought the case to court herself or hired the dumbest lawyer available.

If it IS legal for a city to do that then the terrorists won a lot longer ago than we realized.

I've worked as a tow truck driver. It is legal. And it is shiatty. Towing is a racket because municipalities and insurance companies don't want to have to pony up the dollars to pay for impounds in unfortunate circumstances. You pay for all other kinds of vehicle accidents, why not this?

In California, towing companies in a given city have to be within 5% of each other on price, by the state. So every year everyone basically has a tacit agreement that they will increase the rate by about $5. Once we get your car back to the lot, it is $200. Then for every 24 hour period that it sits there there is an additional $50 lot fee. If three days goes by without someone coming in to claim the vehicle, a lien is put against it and the paperwork is started to take ownership after a month passes. If you come to get it at that point you will also have to pay the lien.

Some cases I had little sympathy for: DUIs have to leave their vehicle in the lot for a month. If you get a DUI, it IS going to cost you about $2000 just to get your car back from the towing company, in addition to the fees you have to pay to the government.

Other cases aren't so easy to be carefree about: People park on the street for too long while on vacation and the city or a neighbor requests that their vehicle be removed. Students would go home for the summer and come back to find that their car has been towed and already sold, and the lien notice is sitting in their mailbox. It's one of those things that leaves people feeling utterly farked by the system - that sort of "I don't want to live on this planet anymore" feeling.


On the upside, no one feels bad for tow operators who get shot. Just more trash lying on the street to be cleaned up in the morning.
 
2012-06-08 03:58:02 PM  
dcist.com

Yeah, but how much do they owe me if I left my *pants* in the car!??
 
2012-06-08 04:26:47 PM  

thisisyourbrainonFark: Probably a vagrant slept in the car. Or maybe just used it as a toilet and moved on.


Sincerely,

Dirty Mike and the boys
 
2012-06-08 04:33:20 PM  
ZipSplat

I really hate tow companies, a buddy hit a dear one time and he had to have his trucked towed, I told him to have it towed to his house (it wasn't totaled), then again to the body shop he wanted to have it fixed. He foolishly listened to the tow truck driver who said insurance would pay, so you don't have to worry about. But if you want it towed to your home, you have to pay me right now. Well, that cost the insurance company an extra $1000 for the week it was at their lot, completely ridicules. If he had it towed home, his cousin who works at a body shop would have given him a good deal, and he would have kept the $500 in deductible. Lesson learned.

Oh, one time I was at a gas station and I needed a jump start. I ask a tow truck driver who was just sitting there, he said he would have to charge me for a jump start. He said it registers something on the truck? I had the cables, what a prick. I found someone within a couple minutes. I have more stories about worthless truck drivers. Bottom line is if you call them and have it towed home, and are with them the entire time they are pretty cool. But if you are not there when they tow it, they will try to screw you no matter the circumstances.
 
2012-06-08 04:45:55 PM  
My CSB towing story:

My car broke down in a lot that was very close to my home. I called my repair guy (who was a man-with-a-van, come-to-you sort of service), and he couldn't get to it until the next day. Well, I figured I'd be okay in the lot, since I was a member of the gym, etc. But I failed to take into account that the night club across the street had been creating parking problems.

So I wound up towed. My fault. Should have read better/thought ahead more. No biggie. But then I start trying to deal with the company.

First, they are way the fark away (like, far opposite side of Dallas), so I have to try to find a friend who can drive me out that way. That takes a few days. Notably, they're charging me more by the day.

Then they give me the wrong address, so that takes another day.

I finally find them, and the price they gave me over the phone was 'just the towing fee' or some shiat, so the actual price is more than double what I expected. They also only take a very few bullshiatty methods of payment, like Discover or money order.

By this point, it's not worth my money to get the car back, as it was going to be over a thousand dollars just to get the car, plus the cost of getting them to tow it to a mechanic, plus the cost of repairs, and my old junker just wasn't worth that. Besides, I didn't have Discover or a money order on me, so I'd have been charged even more by the time I managed to come back with their stupid MOP.

fark tow companies.
 
2012-06-08 04:54:44 PM  

kingoomieiii: What the f... HUH?

"The mere fact that plaintiff had poor experiences with the towing of a vehicle she previously owned is not enough for the court to reasonably conclude that the city of Columbus has adopted an implicit custom or policy that encourages its employees to violate plaintiff's federal rights,"


she didn't own her vehicle after they sold it.
most towing companies are scum of the earth.
why the f*ck bring an equal protection violation? they'll screw over anyone they can get their hooks into.
 
2012-06-08 04:59:41 PM  
Submitted First With a Better Headline: My CSB towing story:

My car broke down in a lot that was very close to my home. I called my repair guy (who was a man-with-a-van, come-to-you sort of service), and he couldn't get to it until the next day. Well, I figured I'd be okay in the lot, since I was a member of the gym, etc. But I failed to take into account that the night club across the street had been creating parking problems.

So I wound up towed. My fault. Should have read better/thought ahead more. No biggie. But then I start trying to deal with the company.

First, they are way the fark away (like, far opposite side of Dallas), so I have to try to find a friend who can drive me out that way. That takes a few days. Notably, they're charging me more by the day.

Then they give me the wrong address, so that takes another day.

I finally find them, and the price they gave me over the phone was 'just the towing fee' or some shiat, so the actual price is more than double what I expected. They also only take a very few bullshiatty methods of payment, like Discover or money order.

By this point, it's not worth my money to get the car back, as it was going to be over a thousand dollars just to get the car, plus the cost of getting them to tow it to a mechanic, plus the cost of repairs, and my old junker just wasn't worth that. Besides, I didn't have Discover or a money order on me, so I'd have been charged even more by the time I managed to come back with their stupid MOP.

fark tow companies.


I'm with you, I hope I don't have to deal with something like that. I know for sure though, they would have suffered at least that amount or more in some type of "damage" to their property. I'd probably stalk one of their drivers, then flatten some tires, probably break out some windows, call them over and over to harass them, put up signs about them, etc. So did you retaliate? The place you dealt with knew exactly what they were doing, they scammed you, lied to you, gave stall tactics so you would just give up.
 
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