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(Washington Post)   According to Charles Krauthammer, Wisconsin was an "Icarus moment" for unions, which basically means they had the temerity to approach the Sun God who deigns to provide them light and heat and so deserve a cold, watery death   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 29
    More: Dumbass, Charles Krauthammer, Icarus, Wisconsin, inflection points, AFSCME, Icarus moment, traditional conservatives, sun gods  
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819 clicks; posted to Politics » on 08 Jun 2012 at 1:50 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Archived thread
2012-06-08 02:01:59 PM
6 votes:
The thing about unions is when they do finally die at the hands of capitalist looters, people will start to realize why they existed.
2012-06-08 11:13:16 AM
6 votes:

slayer199: "Without the thumb of the state tilting the scale by coerced collection, union membership became truly voluntary. Result? Newly freed members rushed for the exits. In less than one year, AFSCME, the second-largest public-sector union in Wisconsin, has lost more than 50 percent of its membership."

Wow. If unions are so great, why did so many leave?


i know right? i mean, if people won't continue to pay dues to a union after the whole value proposition of the union is stripped away by the state, what good are unions in general? stupid libs.
2012-06-08 02:16:59 PM
4 votes:
A paralyzed man that champions only the strong survive rhetoric, a great example of your typical middle class republican.
2012-06-08 11:59:46 AM
4 votes:

slayer199: I think people are missing the point here.

There's an essential problem with public sector unions. Unions exist to get the best deal for their members. That is not necessarily the best interest of the public or the taxpayer. With private sector unions, they do have a vested interest in seeing that the business is able to continue operations and remain competitive (something that GM and Chrysler discovered nearly too late). There isn't an unlimited well of funds for the public sector salaries or pensions. Taxes cannot continually be raised because eventually people will get fed up and leave which results in a smaller tax base and greater deficits. When things are in decline, it's unsustainable. Detroit is a perfect example of this phenomena.


Why do people seem to think that unions just get whatever they want, always? It's "bargaining" not "we force the government to hand over unsustainably huge fistfulls of money on demand". Yes, they are trying to get the best deal for the worker, but the public sector unions in WI have agreed to cuts, freezes, and furloughs. They agreed to the benefit contributions that Walker asked for. All they want is the opportunity to continue to exist and sit at the table.
2012-06-08 02:09:39 PM
3 votes:
Yugh; we ran this stupid column in our local paper the other day and I just about gagged. Krauthammer's one of those people who doesn't even bother to couch his rhetoric in a frisson of "Unions are socialisms so if we get rid of them we'll have a better deal for everybody" language. He actually comes right out and says that employees need to learn their place and don't deserve collective bargaining rights, because all hail the mighty rich.
2012-06-08 01:26:09 PM
3 votes:

slayer199: I think people are missing the point here.

There's an essential problem with public sector unions. Unions exist to get the best deal for their members. That is not necessarily the best interest of the public or the taxpayer. With private sector unions, they do have a vested interest in seeing that the business is able to continue operations and remain competitive (something that GM and Chrysler discovered nearly too late). There isn't an unlimited well of funds for the public sector salaries or pensions. Taxes cannot continually be raised because eventually people will get fed up and leave which results in a smaller tax base and greater deficits. When things are in decline, it's unsustainable. Detroit is a perfect example of this phenomena.


You realize that many public workers do not pay into social security? That's why the "outrageous" pensions were so high- to compensate for the lack of social security. And most did retire early so they could work another job to get some social security because their pensions wouldnt be enough.

And Detroit was abandoned by GM /Ford/Crysler...they gave the workers a series ofaalary and benifit cuts and then left because they could get mexicans for pennies.

Not once did they think to cut the management salary or make a better product.
2012-06-08 11:32:54 AM
3 votes:

thomps: i know right? i mean, if people won't continue to pay dues to a union after the whole value proposition of the union is stripped away by the state, what good are unions in general? stupid libs.


Yeah. It's a lot more practical for a worker to put the money he'd otherwise spend on union dues on some more guns, ammo, and explosives, for when he gets fed up enough to remind politicians and big business that legalizing worker strikes was a pragmatic political compromise to reduce other kinds of "negotiation" tactics.

/the peasants have always been revolting
//they're not revolting against the social order yet
2012-06-08 11:26:13 AM
3 votes:

slayer199: "Without the thumb of the state tilting the scale by coerced collection, union membership became truly voluntary. Result? Newly freed members rushed for the exits. In less than one year, AFSCME, the second-largest public-sector union in Wisconsin, has lost more than 50 percent of its membership."

Wow. If unions are so great, why did so many leave?


Well, there are certainly a lot of free riders in our system who say "Well, I haven't been walled up in an abandoned coke oven at work for a while, so I don't need a union". But perhaps, just perhaps it has something to do with Walker saying "Hey, fark you guys.. I'll never give you a seat at the table ever again" and then cutting union member's take home pay 8-10% so that public workers don't have the expendable cash to pay union dues.

Additionally, a lot of the branches (chapters? I don't know what you call the individual units of the unions) of the various unions (AFSME included) declined to recertify because, on top of Walker refusing to let them have a seat on the table, he made it incredibly hard for them to even continue to function, by forcing them to hold elections to recertify every year and jump through various other hoops that many decided would take up all of their time, effort, and money so that it can't be used to actually, ya know, help workers... so what's the point of certifying?
2012-06-08 02:11:47 PM
2 votes:
When your suppliers consolidate, they can increase their prices to you because there is less competition. This is capitalism. We love capitalism.

When your workers consolidate, they can increase the price of their labor because there is less competition. This is capitalism. We love capitalism. Soshulizm Rawrrrrrrrrrrrrr Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Marx

Totally.
2012-06-08 10:52:49 AM
2 votes:
I'm disappointed that the DNC and Obama didn't campaign harder in Wisconsin. I realize they were getting significantly outspent but Obama really is playing a very timid game. Why not be more aggressive and come out harder in support of your people? Good lord.

The one thing that pisses me off about Obama is that he really doesn't go aggressive on stuff. He talks a hard game sometimes but for example, what he did with respect to gay marriage was mix messages for a week, not campaign hard in NC for gay marriage at all, and then afterwards come out in support of it...after the farking vote was over! The guy thinks he is not popular anywhere and it shows when he avoids these contests when he could make a difference and actually has the right message. He should really take stands more often on things, and properly time it. If I were him I would have been campaigning in Wisconsin for Barrett and getting the DNC to pony up there, a month ago!

It's not about growing a pair. I think Obama has balls. The problem is he gets wishy washy on certain things, and doesn't flat out make tough decisions and then go public with them, or he comes out for things way too late.

And Republicans are spinning this as a blow to Obama's campaign chances ANYWAY! I mean FFS man!
2012-06-08 10:30:00 AM
2 votes:

Mentat: WTF Indeed: You mean it's the moment when Democrats need to realize that if they want to retain union(White working class) votes they need to never talk about gun laws again. In fact, they need to come out with a plan to simplify the current laws. Wacko Liberals may work long hours for free, but they are a very small voting block, and politics is about getting all the votes you can.

Gun rights are literally the least important issue in this election. Democrats have basically surrendered on the issue. That Teabaggers still make it an issue proves that a) they aren't that bright, b) the NRA has a fantastic PR arm, and c) that discussing the issue will have no effect whatsoever on the Democrats electoral chances.


What's really funny is that Romney has a horrifically anti-gun record while Obama has signed multiple pieces of legislation expanding gun rights.
2012-06-09 06:05:20 AM
1 votes:

puffy999: The most corrupt unions in the United States are police unions.

Why is it, then, that NONE of the union busting Republicans want to go after police unions?


They have guns.
2012-06-08 04:13:37 PM
1 votes:

slayer199: I think people are missing the point here.

There's an essential problem with public sector unions. Unions exist to get the best deal for their members.


Decisions in both the public and private sectors are made on the basis of various pressures applied to large institutions. For corporations that could be pressure from the shareholders to follow a certain path, pressure from competitors to apply a different business model, etc.

Right now there's no farkin' pressure whether through competition, regulation or employees acting collectively, to increase wages for working stiffs. What few bastions of such pressure remain are first in foremost in the crosshairs of institutional money and the conservative rank and file.

I'm not in a union. I know unions can be corrupt and occasionally work against the interests of the workers they are suppossed to represent. But when I think of this country without any organized labor it makes me sick to my stomach because it really does mean we are racing to the bottom.
2012-06-08 04:06:08 PM
1 votes:
I've never seen anyone use the phrase "the ignore button is for pussies" who wasn't probably on at least 10% of farkers' ignore lists
2012-06-08 03:48:32 PM
1 votes:

Botkin of the Yard: They can still bargain for wages.


They can still bargain for wage increases not to exceed the CPI unless approved by a referendum.

The unions in Wisconsin had already agreed to kick in more for their pensions and other concessions. Walker wanted their collective bargaining rights, you know, what basically makes a union a union. From reading you in this thread, it doesn't seem like you have a very good handle on what happened in Wisconsin. I'd recommend more reading. There was a reason the budget repair bill was stripped of any thing relating to money.
2012-06-08 03:25:03 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: This was a democrat and union loss, no doubt about it. But don't think for a moment it was designed to have any other outcome than what occurred. Democrats didn't dump any money into Wisconsin, because they would actually have to accomplish something. Unions could have trotted out a far better candidate and should have done more sooner rather than putting all their eggs into the recall basket. The problem was they didn't strike when the iron was hot and they never had any intention to do so. The democrats get more money and more fundraising done when they are the opposition party, they like things the way the are now. Unions like getting the press and attention and it keeps their issues on the front burner. This loss was designed.


somebody should have told that little fellow who was crying on the tv. maybe he would have felt better.
2012-06-08 03:13:31 PM
1 votes:
Ya know what bugs me? Anyone using "_______ moment" , so STFU Charles Hitlerhammer.
2012-06-08 02:51:38 PM
1 votes:

tenpoundsofcheese: FarkedOver: Unions could have trotted out a far better candidate

That is EXACTLY the problem.

No, the dems should have trotted out a better candidate, NOT the Unions.


Why is that a problem? Elect a business man if you want solutions for business. Elect a working class person if you want working class solutions. I'd be fine with unions hand picking candidates and I'd be happy if they broke with the democrats. Win lose or draw when republicans or democrats win an election we are getting more of the same. A labor party is what this countries need.

Unions are not the boogeyman you make them out to be. Union membership in this country is 11% of the workforce. It doesn't have the power you think it does.
2012-06-08 02:49:45 PM
1 votes:

Shaggy_C: Don't be obtuse. If suppliers consolidate to the point where the Herfindahl-Hirschman Index goes beyond a particular threshold, the FTC would block the merger for being anti-competitive.


The banking industry laughs at your index.
2012-06-08 02:31:38 PM
1 votes:

verbaltoxin: HotWingConspiracy: The thing about unions is when they do finally die at the hands of capitalist looters, people will start to realize why they existed.

Unions aren't going to die. They will have to change though. It's an adapt or die situation for them these days.


Things are rather civil right now, believe it or not. Just wait until these pigs get their legislators to green light some Neo Pinkerton raids.
2012-06-08 02:27:58 PM
1 votes:
ooooh you guys, y'all so cute.

unions are the new socialism and islam... shiat that the right really doesn't understand, and yet causes them to lose their ever loving minds in to a ungodly froth of derprage and jealousy. it's insanely entertaining.
2012-06-08 02:27:21 PM
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: The thing about unions is when they do finally die at the hands of capitalist looters, people will start to realize why they existed.


Unions aren't going to die. They will have to change though. It's an adapt or die situation for them these days.
2012-06-08 02:24:58 PM
1 votes:
Ah, Charles Sauerkrauthammer. Why does it always look like you've been sucking a lemon?

Oh, and BTW his headshot is 'shopped - he's neither that young nor does he have that much hair.
2012-06-08 02:12:50 PM
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: The thing about unions is when they do finally die at the hands of capitalist looters, people will start to realize why they existed.


This. After a decade or so at the mercy of our corporate overlords, people will be begging to have unions back.

"Those who ignore history...etc, etc."
2012-06-08 02:10:50 PM
1 votes:
Because Norma Rae nostalgia is not enough, and it hardly applied to government workers living better than the average taxpayer who supports them.

Really? My GF the police dispatcher lives better than the average taxpayer? Tell me when they have to save the life of a woman who's been stabbed repeatedly by her husband because he got mad at her for making a remark about a movie. Or when a guy barricades himself in his house with around twenty shotguns and assualt rifles and SWAT needs to get him.

There's been little objection to the changes in contribution levels, just quit painting them all as louts pulling in $75,000/yr just sit at a desk.
2012-06-08 11:54:05 AM
1 votes:
I think people are missing the point here.

There's an essential problem with public sector unions. Unions exist to get the best deal for their members. That is not necessarily the best interest of the public or the taxpayer. With private sector unions, they do have a vested interest in seeing that the business is able to continue operations and remain competitive (something that GM and Chrysler discovered nearly too late). There isn't an unlimited well of funds for the public sector salaries or pensions. Taxes cannot continually be raised because eventually people will get fed up and leave which results in a smaller tax base and greater deficits. When things are in decline, it's unsustainable. Detroit is a perfect example of this phenomena.
2012-06-08 10:30:38 AM
1 votes:

Mentat: Gun rights are literally the least important issue in this election. Democrats have basically surrendered on the issue. That Teabaggers still make it an issue proves that a) they aren't that bright, b) the NRA has a fantastic PR arm, and c) that discussing the issue will have no effect whatsoever on the Democrats electoral chances.


I guess you've never walked into union meetings to talk about a candidate and got asked just two questions every time. "What's his stances on guns?" and "What's he gonna do about the illegals?"
2012-06-08 10:23:55 AM
1 votes:

WTF Indeed: You mean it's the moment when Democrats need to realize that if they want to retain union(White working class) votes they need to never talk about gun laws again. In fact, they need to come out with a plan to simplify the current laws. Wacko Liberals may work long hours for free, but they are a very small voting block, and politics is about getting all the votes you can.


Gun rights are literally the least important issue in this election. Democrats have basically surrendered on the issue. That Teabaggers still make it an issue proves that a) they aren't that bright, b) the NRA has a fantastic PR arm, and c) that discussing the issue will have no effect whatsoever on the Democrats electoral chances.
2012-06-08 10:15:10 AM
1 votes:
i.imgur.com

Lets replace this fish person wearing mickey mouse ears with Charles Krauthammer and see if viewers notice the difference.
 
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